The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

Did I say I objected to that? I think it would be great to take the odd game to Eugene Cross Park or wherever.

I agree. Sorry, I thought you said earlier that you were committed to the Sharks/Hurricanes/Waratahs model of all games in one town.

It definitely makes sense for the majority of games to be played in the better stadia, and the better stadia tend to be in the bigger towns and cities.

Sorry if I came across as snappy - I don't want to argue on a Friday afternoon!

I just think the Dragons are missing a trick. They could (at zero cost) drop the 'Newport' reference from the team name and take the odd game out and about. They'd instantly become the benchmark for how regions should operate, regardless of finances or on field performances.

Casartelli wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Leaving everything as it is remains an option, albeit a slightly depressing one.

I don't know why it needs to be depressing - nor why you seem to think it's doomed to failure. The Sharks play our of Durban because that's the biggest city in Natal; the Hurricanes play out of Wellington, the Waratahs out of Sydney and so on. Why should our regions be any different?

If the Welsh regions had been anything less than mediocre (occasional exception being the Ospreys) over the last ten years then I'd agree, let them play wherever they want. Base all four in Cardiff, Swansea, Burry Port or Maesteg for all I care as long as they are achieving some degree of success.

Your SH examples are a little selective - the Crusaders and the Blues, for example, take games out of the main town/city to 'spread the word'.

Actually the Crusaders and Blues don't too often move regular season games (pre-season matches do move around).-Last season for the Crusaders was a special case due to the destruction of AMI stadium in the Christchurch earthquake. This season the Crusaders played 1 home game in Hawkes Bay (which is in the Hurricanes' region) before the temporary Chch stadium was ready, otherwise every game was in Chch. The Blues have played the odd game at North Harbour's ground, but that's only a short hop over the Harbour Bridge from Eden Park.

The Highlanders, Chiefs and Hurricanes do take games to Invercargill, Rotorua or Tauranga and New Plymouth on occasion - mainly because those regions have significant secondary population centres, and decent stadia in the alternate towns. For the Crusaders, Christchurch has 300,000 people with another 50,000 within an hour's drive. Nelson and Timaru's catchments are 60,000 and 40,000 respectively which just doesn't work economically (and Timaru is only 2 hours drive from Chch anyway).

As far as season tickets go, the number of games available is known beforehand (test matches/play off matches are sold separately) and priced accordingly.

I would have no problem with dropping 'Newport' from the name - no one calls us anything but the Dragons anyway (except Jiffy occasionally, but he does the same with the Scarlets and the Blues).

Of course the WRU would have to agree to that thanks to Ebbw Vale messing around. It is also not enough of an issue for any of the Gwent clubs to step up to the plate and take up the other half of the region. Much as I agree it should just be Dragons it is what it is and moving games around the region isn't going to generate the kind of investment needed to make us HC contenders. For no other reason that this army of disenfranchised club rugby fans is as much a myth here as it is elsewhere in Wales.

Stone - I'll put you down as remaining firmly in the 'leave things as they are' camp!

Luckless and Spiderman - thanks - the most intelligent discussion on the subject that has been on here in ... well, ever, probably.

Not at all. It's very easy to come up with wish lists of this and the regions should be doing that but there are very good reasons for the way it's panned out and I'd rather view things realistically than constantly bleating on about some imaginary conspiracy by the regions to keep themselves mediocre and rafts of non existant Welsh club rugby fans in the doldrums. Show me where anything I've said is wrong. It is what it is, it ain't perfect and it never will be for everyone but it's doing what it set out to do and produce a more competitive Wales.

Casartelli wrote:Stone - I'll put you down as remaining firmly in the 'leave things as they are' camp!

Luckless and Spiderman - thanks - the most intelligent discussion on the subject that has been on here in ... well, ever, probably.

Stone isn't the only one tired of the disenfranchised brigade though. Everyone is. The way I see it is we are all Welsh and I happily take an interest in the other Regions and always support them.

The only one talking about the 'disenfranchised brigade' was Stone. He seemed to be having a debate with himself.

Totally agree the majority should get behind all the Welsh regions (there'll always be the minority who won't - refusing to understand that the place for the local rivalries is the premiership). But I think a bit of tweaking and minor re-branding of the current set up could make it so much better.

Unless, of course, fans are happy with more of the same for the next decade?

Casartelli wrote:The only one talking about the 'disenfranchised brigade' was Stone. He seemed to be having a debate with himself.

Totally agree the majority should get behind all the Welsh regions (there'll always be the minority who won't - refusing to understand that the place for the local rivalries is the premiership). But I think a bit of tweaking and minor re-branding of the current set up could make it so much better.

Unless, of course, fans are happy with more of the same for the next decade?

I find it interesting most on here are Dragons supporters, why, because they have acheived very little in 10 years and must be favourites to be ditched at the expense of a north Wales region, or another region or a reduction to three regions. The Dragons must do more to get supporters and sponsorship which will enable them to attract better players or hang on to the ones they have, if not they will deserve to fold.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I would have no problem with dropping 'Newport' from the name - no one calls us anything but the Dragons anyway (except Jiffy occasionally, but he does the same with the Scarlets and the Blues).

Is it not true that Newport Gwent Dragons supporters were asked not to chant "Newport"?

Stone Motif wrote:Not at all. It's very easy to come up with wish lists of this and the regions should be doing that but there are very good reasons for the way it's panned out and I'd rather view things realistically than constantly bleating on about some imaginary conspiracy by the regions to keep themselves mediocre and rafts of non existant Welsh club rugby fans in the doldrums. Show me where anything I've said is wrong. It is what it is, it ain't perfect and it never will be for everyone but it's doing what it set out to do and produce a more competitive Wales.

Wish lists are the bane of forums like this when it comes to addressing the Welsh regional matter. Practical suggestions are few and far between unsurprisingly.
I see that Cardiff, following the refurb of the Arms Park, have decided to name their new/old bar areas, after ex players of Cardiff RFC; the Bleddyn Williams bar, the Jack Matthews bar and dare I say it, the Gareth Edwards Lounge.
Two fingers to "regionalism"?
Not sure, but you decide.

Wow do you guys smell that? Smells like Alun and Dave opened their fat gobs. No point in trying to reason with them with the facts, it won't get rid of the stench.

Morgannwg wrote:Wow do you guys smell that? Smells like Alun and Dave opened their fat gobs. No point in trying to reason with them with the facts, it won't get rid of the stench.

Smell what?
Reality?
I can smell it too.
I'll reason with the facts all day if you like, but I agree the stench will still be the same.
I nor you can change that.
Don't blame me for what we have. I'm a mere supporter on the terrace commenting on what I see like most of us on here.

Facts, what facts, Dragons had a good first season and gone down hill ever since, they can't compete in the AMLIN, they provided the least number of internationals to the Welsh team, the support is falling away and their best players are leaving, they are facts. You seem to be a bitter individual that can't take constructive comments without slagging off other posters. I want at least four good regions that make the most of their assets (crowds, sponsorship and players), successful and be viable, unfortunately none of the current regions meet all these points, in the case of the Dragons none are met. Maybe another region like North Wales should have a chance!

glamorganalun wrote: You seem to be a bitter individual

I'm intrigued. How do you come to that conclusion?

Not aimed at you, our Dragon friend with a strange sense of smell.

glamorganalun wrote:Not aimed at you, our Dragon friend with a strange sense of smell.

Oh right.
So in terms of "regionalism" what is your opinion on Cardiff naming their refurbished bars at Cardiff Arms Park after Cardiff RFC legendary players?

glamorganalun wrote:Facts, what facts, Dragons had a good first season and gone down hill ever since, they can't compete in the AMLIN, they provided the least number of internationals to the Welsh team, the support is falling away and their best players are leaving, they are facts. You seem to be a bitter individual that can't take constructive comments without slagging off other posters. I want at least four good regions that make the most of their assets (crowds, sponsorship and players), successful and be viable, unfortunately none of the current regions meet all these points, in the case of the Dragons none are met. Maybe another region like North Wales should have a chance!

The fact that you're full of BS . That isn't slagging off. It is a fact.

Drop this dragons rubbish and start chanting "NEWPOOOOORT", loud and proud.

So Alun just to pick one item out of that typical list of anti Dragons BS where do you think any of the regions would be if they ran a tight ship. They are arguably the only sustainable one of the lot. You have a hopelessly short termist view based on speculation and fantasy. Please qualify your anti Gwent comments here with facts or don't bother. In fact do the forum a favour and don't bother at all.

Casartelli wrote:The only one talking about the 'disenfranchised brigade' was Stone. He seemed to be having a debate with himself.

Ah right I only imagined those thousands of identical posts where you moan on at tedious length that the regions mean nothing to people outside of the population centres.

glamorganalun wrote:Facts, what facts, Dragons had a good first season and gone down hill ever since, they can't compete in the AMLIN, they provided the least number of internationals to the Welsh team, the support is falling away and their best players are leaving, they are facts. You seem to be a bitter individual that can't take constructive comments without slagging off other posters. I want at least four good regions that make the most of their assets (crowds, sponsorship and players), successful and be viable, unfortunately none of the current regions meet all these points, in the case of the Dragons none are met. Maybe another region like North Wales should have a chance!

See Alun, I could maybe debate on you if you were factual. Our support is dropping away? So why were our numbers up on last year, a month after season tickets went out? Surely that means support is rising?

I could take people like you and Caserbelli seriously, if you produced a new arguement. You can't, so give up. You slag Dragons off the most, yet say above we should make the most of our crowds and yet you are one of the worst to bang the drum about taking games away from RP (i.e. the main hub of our support). Can't fault your genius there. Like I keep saying, you, Jimmy Moz, Caserbelli etc are great on here sounding off, but with no substance. An awful lot like the "Valleys" Region

glamorganalun, can I ask you which region you support? It's clear you don't support the Dragons, yet you live in Torfaen.

Risca Rev wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:Facts, what facts, Dragons had a good first season and gone down hill ever since, they can't compete in the AMLIN, they provided the least number of internationals to the Welsh team, the support is falling away and their best players are leaving, they are facts. You seem to be a bitter individual that can't take constructive comments without slagging off other posters. I want at least four good regions that make the most of their assets (crowds, sponsorship and players), successful and be viable, unfortunately none of the current regions meet all these points, in the case of the Dragons none are met. Maybe another region like North Wales should have a chance!

See Alun, I could maybe debate on you if you were factual. Our support is dropping away? So why were our numbers up on last year, a month after season tickets went out? Surely that means support is rising?

I could take people like you and Caserbelli seriously, if you produced a new arguement. You can't, so give up. You slag Dragons off the most, yet say above we should make the most of our crowds and yet you are one of the worst to bang the drum about taking games away from RP (i.e. the main hub of our support). Can't fault your genius there. Like I keep saying, you, Jimmy Moz, Caserbelli etc are great on here sounding off, but with no substance. An awful lot like the "Valleys" Region

Hi Risca:

When I was referring to crowd numbers I was talking about over the 10 years, I believe it is reducing, the begging letters to buy season tickets early hardly inspirers confidence. Have you heard anything about sales to date for this seson, I really hope they are increasing? I still believe the Dragons should play around the region like the game last weekend, the die hards like you will travel, the Dragons should be (and the other regions) getting the youth to games for the crowds (and season tickets) in the future. These away games within the regions may help convert the Gwent valley rugby supporters to buy into the Dragons concept, that is what I meant by making the most of the crowds, i.e., go out and attract them in.

As you say, I sound off with no substance, I have made suggestions above and previously regarding increasing crowds, improving the pitch (the only ground with a swimming pool), location of the regional ground, sponsorship etc, what are your views on improving matters at the Dragons besides blaming everybody else?

In the case of the Dragons there is someone else to blame though. Marcus Russell for jacking on his obligations and the WRU for sitting on their half of the region doing nothing with it but preventing us from attracting investment. All this playing at other grounds and winning hearts and minds is window dressing. Why I'm bothering replying so someone as obtuse as Alun I don't know but maybe he'll get it through his head this time and stop his ill informed crusade against a region that's not even his own.

Stone:

I don't have a crusade against against the Dragons, you have just stated some of the points I have been making regarding lack of investment and decent sponsors not identified by the management. I have just looked on the Pontypridd web site and the have sealed a deal with a large contract manufacturing company, who is the Dragons main sponsor, a discount tyre company! I don't know the values of each sponsor to each club but which club has the higher profile sponsor? Maybe the Dragons should take on the Ponty sales force.

For your informaton I have worked and lived in and around Newport for 37 years (and counting) hence my concern for the future as they achieved very little and I am sorry to say I am not expecting a good season. I really hope I am wrong and the results improve in the RABO, the AMLIN, and bring in the crowds but I suspect there will be no change.

I don't go with another club based Region in Ponty but their plan does show creative thinking lacking with other regions.

Yes creative as in it was dreamt up in cloud cuckoo land. Again more supposition from you posturing like some sort of expert. How do you know what discount tyres are paying? It is surely more than the sizeable donation Tony Brown made to have Bisley on the shirt last season? Not a fan of the logo but DT are one of the fastest growing local companies.
Also still not getting the message about investment as well I see. To get investment we need our 50% thrown away by Ebbw Vale back and the WRU will not sell.

As Stone Motif said, for the Dragons to be any more regional than they are (and they are doing quite a lot) then it would need Ebbw/Cross Keys to buy the 50% owned by the WRU (the 50% Ebbw didn't buy at the start of regioalisation). Then the Dragons would have a much stronger financial position to attract investment and sponsorship

For those who are bringing in the amount of support dropping at the regions, I have posted this on another thread, and will paste it here:


try here

http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=394&statType=home_Att

Going on Rabo/Magners only, the attendances look like this

BLUES

2011/12 Ave = 7,667 Highest = 10,660
2010/11 Ave = 10,356 Highest = 22,160
2009/10 Ave = 10,635 Highest = 16,341
2008/09 Ave = 8,608 Highest = 12,813
2007/08 Ave = 8,241 Highest = 12,532

DRAGONS

2011/12 Ave = 6,094 Highest = 8,038
2010/11 Ave = 5,028 Highest = 6,720
2009/10 Ave = 5,901 Highest = 8,108
2008/09 Ave = 5,574 Highest = 10,180
2007/08 Ave = 4,972 Highest = 6,782

OSPREYS

2011/12 Ave = 7,917 Highest = 14,478
2010/11 Ave = 7,340 Highest = 18,151
2009/10 Ave = 8,417 Highest = 14,476
2008/09 Ave = 8,405 Highest = 20,520
2007/08 Ave = 8,702 Highest = 16,109

SCARLETS

2011/12 Ave = 9,483 Highest = 14,756
2010/11 Ave = 7,859 Highest = 13,707
2009/10 Ave = 6,805 Highest = 10,171
2008/09 Ave = 7,302 Highest = 11,444
2007/08 Ave = 7,350 Highest = 10,739


I would say that with the exception of the Ospreys (and the BLues last season, and we all know that was a protest) the region attendances have grown year after year.

Risca Rev wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:Facts, what facts, Dragons had a good first season and gone down hill ever since, they can't compete in the AMLIN, they provided the least number of internationals to the Welsh team, the support is falling away and their best players are leaving, they are facts. You seem to be a bitter individual that can't take constructive comments without slagging off other posters. I want at least four good regions that make the most of their assets (crowds, sponsorship and players), successful and be viable, unfortunately none of the current regions meet all these points, in the case of the Dragons none are met. Maybe another region like North Wales should have a chance!

See Alun, I could maybe debate on you if you were factual. Our support is dropping away? So why were our numbers up on last year, a month after season tickets went out? Surely that means support is rising?

I could take people like you and Caserbelli seriously, if you produced a new arguement. You can't, so give up. You slag Dragons off the most, yet say above we should make the most of our crowds and yet you are one of the worst to bang the drum about taking games away from RP (i.e. the main hub of our support). Can't fault your genius there. Like I keep saying, you, Jimmy Moz, Caserbelli etc are great on here sounding off, but with no substance. An awful lot like the "Valleys" Region

My last post suggested that with some tweaks the Dragons could become the benchmark for Welsh teams in terms of how to run a region - so not sure if you're including me as one of those who, ahem, 'slags Dragons off the most'.

Point is, as a 'neutral' (who'd like to see all Welsh teams being successful), you'd want to see resources used most efficiently - and if the Dragons are just going to settle for another 10 years of mediocrity, playing all their games in one ground as 'Newport' Gwent Dragons in front of tiny crowds, then maybe its time for a change.

As ludicrous as the Valleys plan is, the rugby couldn't be much worse, the crowds are almost certain to be bigger and at least they are proposing to play games around their patch.

Is there some written constitution that says pro rugby must be played in Newport? No? Then why shouldn't WRU funding be diverted to let the Valley Shambles have a crack at it instead?

Easiest thing would be to put petty politics aside, embrace regionalism, become 'Gwent Dragons' and take a few smaller games on the road. This Valleys nonsense would quickly be forgotten.

Scarlet:

Thanks for that, interesting, in the case of the Blues and the Ospreys they have been giving away tickets last year also there is some debate how the Ospreys were counting their crowds i.e., the number of season ticket holders plus the number paying per match. I been to watch both teams play at home and I can say there were lots of £1 tickets for school kids at the Ospreys and free ones at the Blues a bit annoying when you have paid full price. I also watched another HC game at the liberty with Sarries there were barely 2k/3k and when they announced the crowd it was explained to me the crowd counting method. The other distortion at the liberty are the big games against the Scarlets and the play off game against Munster, these games make up for poor crowds in other games.

If you add up the crowds of all four regions each season the overall crowds are more or less the same around 30K mark despite free and heavy discounted tickets last season. The Ospreys crowds dropped having lost a lot of their star players last season, do you think this will happen this season with the Dragons losing Brew,Tovey and Charteris? The various offers for season tickets this seaon could well swell crowds but will the takings be down with free entry, free shirts, free chirldren seats all good for the game but will debts increase, who knows, I suspect yes?

Thanks for the information, it will be interesting to see the season ticket sales for this season, we have heard a lot about the 8k Ospreys (or is it 4K) and 2.5K for Cardiff but not heard anything about the Scarlets or the Dragons.

Hmmm - <personal attack removed - KRD>

Casartelli wrote:
My last post suggested that with some tweaks the Dragons could become the benchmark for Welsh teams in terms of how to run a region - so not sure if you're including me as one of those who, ahem, 'slags Dragons off the most'

Funny, when asked about these 'tweaks' you throw every good thing done by the region in the bin because they have 'Newport' in the name. Is that all it needed, a name change? Oh to live in your simple little world where we can magic up money with some tippex.

Casartelli wrote: Point is, as a 'neutral' (who'd like to see all Welsh teams being successful), you'd want to see resources used most efficiently - and if the Dragons are just going to settle for another 10 years of mediocrity, playing all their games in one ground as 'Newport' Gwent Dragons in front of tiny crowds, then maybe its time for a change.

Sigh. Leinster must be mediocre as well then, what are they thinking playing all their games in that city of theirs, the losers. Is this really the best you can do? Whichever way you want it, you've lost, as Newport RFC had bigger crowds than the rest of 'Gwent' put together pre-regionalism, and you'd have to go back to the 80's for your last full houses week on week in Ebbw Vale and Pooler.

Casartelli wrote: As ludicrous as the Valleys plan is, the rugby couldn't be much worse, the crowds are almost certain to be bigger and at least they are proposing to play games around their patch.

<personal attack removed - KRD>, you don't appear to understand that the game is now professional and wholly dependent on money, so the rugby would be about half again as worse. The crowds are almost certain to be smaller, as they were the last time a Valleys region went professional, and they weren't asking for £100 extra per supporter then just to put a team of kids on the pitch.

Casartelli wrote: Is there some written constitution that says pro rugby must be played in Newport? No? Then why shouldn't WRU funding be diverted to let the Valley Shambles have a crack at it instead?

No, but there is an economic one, in that as bad as the Dragons can be the Warriors region could not even sustain that. The WRU 'funding' is earned by the Dragons TV appearances and wholly our own to spend.

Casartelli wrote: Easiest thing would be to put petty politics aside, embrace regionalism, become 'Gwent Dragons' and take a few smaller games on the road. This Valleys nonsense would quickly be forgotten.

Like last time, when Gwent Dragons up at Pooler Park in the first season of regional rugby didn't even attract 400 paying fans? You're very quick to re-write history when it suits you, <personal attack removed - KRD>? Final nail in your coffin (we can only hope, I can't see you actually ever reading someone elses posts and educating yourself on the subject at hand) is that any 'Gwent' club, or arguably Pontypridd for that matter, could walk down to Westgate St tomorrow and take the WRU's half of the Dragons off their hands for the princely sum of £1. Now take five, actually try to digest some facts for a change, and tell me - why in all these swathes of alienated Gwent clubs and their legions of supporters just crying out for regional rugby, have none of them actually bothered to spend the whopping pound it would take to get it back?

Take your time.

Alun - the Ospreys have shifted (one way or another ) around 9K season tickets, so I would assume that the attendances will be averaging around 9.5k-11k (especially the official ones cough). I have heard the Dragons sales are up, and I have heard very little about the Scarlets at all (but to be fair that ain't unusual)

Hi Stone - how's it going.

You make a reference to a previous 'valleys' region and also to the Warriors. There has never been a valleys region. The Warriors were essentially a rebadged Bridgend (that played, I think, 3 games in Pontypridd) that were doomed the day the were funded by a trading overdraft of a local picture-frame manufacturer. I'm not sure why you have brought this info to the debate as it is wholly irrelevant.

Similarly, comparing the Dragons to Leinster is a bit of a stretch. Leinster have earned the right to do whatever they want. As many people have said, if Welsh regions were successful it wouldn't matter where they were based or what they were called. While 3 out of 4 are stuck in the mire of mediocrity however, it is legitimate to have a debate about how the situation could be improved? Also, Dublin is a beautiful city of nearly 2m people (metropolitan area) and as far as I am aware, Leinster have never tried to market themselves as "Dublin Leinster" or equivalent.

I don't think Leinster has relevance to any debate on Welsh clubs and regions.

I hope Dragons do well this season - same as all the Welsh teams, but unless they can improve on or off the field, or do something different to embrace regionalism at least, there must come a point when the WRU look at the weakest outfit and ask whether another region (be it the North, the Valleys, Bridgend & Neath, whoever) deserve a shot instead.

Another season of the same for Newport Gwent and maybe the best thing for Welsh rugby would be merge it all back into "Newport RFC" and have a strong Premiership team, at least.

What do you mean, 'merge it all back' into Newport RFC? Newport RFC still exists and is a separate entity.

I know, but if you mashed it all back into one 'entity' - you'd have a good Premiership team.

So there would just be 3 regions ? Or are you proposing a fourth ?

And who would all the non Newport RFC fans go see or support as a region ?

This Dragons bashing is getting quite tiresome, keep it to Scum V

Drop Newport from the name and you will lose sponsorship, the companies investing in the Dragons are Newport based companies.

For such a lowly and un achieving region is amazing how fans of other regions like to put the boot in and call for us to be disbanded....

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:glamorganalun, can I ask you which region you support? It's clear you don't support the Dragons, yet you live in Torfaen.

Still no answer, Alun?

munkian wrote:So there would just be 3 regions ? Or are you proposing a fourth ?

And who would all the non Newport RFC fans go see or support as a region ?

This Dragons bashing is getting quite tiresome, keep it to Scum V

Drop Newport from the name and you will lose sponsorship, the companies investing in the Dragons are Newport based companies.

For such a lowly and un achieving region is amazing how fans of other regions like to put the boot in and call for us to be disbanded....

Wooah there, it tends to be non-regional fans that call for you to be folded. The rest of us, genereally, don't do that as most of us (bar the mighty ospreys) have had people calling for our heads too (Paul Turner used to really want the Scarlets to fold).

It is mainly Kerrrdiff and Ospreys fans to be fair.

It's stupid parochialism - if I was born elsewhere in Wales then I'd support whatever region I was in, I wouldn't slag off and undermine the other regions. It's not football, you can't pick which team you follow (depsite Osperys shirts popping up everywhere)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:So there would just be 3 regions ? Or are you proposing a fourth ?

And who would all the non Newport RFC fans go see or support as a region ?

This Dragons bashing is getting quite tiresome, keep it to Scum V

Drop Newport from the name and you will lose sponsorship, the companies investing in the Dragons are Newport based companies.

For such a lowly and un achieving region is amazing how fans of other regions like to put the boot in and call for us to be disbanded....

Wooah there, it tends to be non-regional fans that call for you to be folded. The rest of us, genereally, don't do that as most of us (bar the mighty ospreys) have had people calling for our heads too (Paul Turner used to really want the Scarlets to fold).

Yeah they seem to think as Pontypridd has a 'devine' right to have professional rugby, they want to pick on (what they see as) the weakest Welsh region to be disbanded (because they just represent Newport, a super-club) and replace it with a Ponty rugby team (because they'll be a proper region, representing Ponty).

They also have huge swarths of fans begging to pay £260 per season to see a bunch of youth players take the league by storm - as shown by the Celtic Warriors, who couldn't find anyone from Ponty to invest, and didn't have enough fans to keep the enterprise going, and lost money every game that was played in Ponty.

As a result, it's obvious that the 'super club' Dragons should be disbanded and the 'true region' Ponty replace them, and all the Dragons fans from the Gwent valleys will skip over to Ponty to be truely represented...

But if you don't live in Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff or Newport you're not in a 'region'. (A few Ospreys warm-up and LV games aside).

I couldn't care less where teams are based or what they are called, but in a small country, with limited resources, in the professional era, if you're not performing, after ten years of trying, then it's probably long overdue to try something else.

Casartelli wrote:But if you don't live in Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff or Newport you're not in a 'region'. (A few Ospreys warm-up and LV games aside).

I couldn't care less where teams are based or what they are called, but in a small country, with limited resources, in the professional era, if you're not performing, after ten years of trying, then it's probably long overdue to try something else.

Absolute hairy danglers!!!

So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

So your answer to that is to take a region from one of the bigger population centre and put it in a smaller population centre - but if you're not from Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli/Newport or Ponty then (in your words) you're still not part of a region - but you've just narrowed you're market.

Or is there different rules for Ponty to Llanelli/Newport/Cardiff/Swansea?

So you're plan to improving regional rugby in Wales is to -

1. Move a region from a large population centre to a smaller population centre (smaller than Llanelli).

2. Disband an established region with a new stadium/stand and replace with another region without money, modern infrastrucutre or much sponsorship.

3. This new region will have a fraction (40% max) of the playing budget of the existing region, and will have to invest large amounts of money on marketing, branding and brand awareness to entice new supporters to spend £260 just to see their team. But somehow this region will become much more competitive than an established region with a proper academy set up, international players, age grade internationals and a larger squad.

I'm sorry but your reasoning seems a little flawed to me....

Smirnoffpriest wrote:So your answer to that is to take a region from one of the bigger population centre and put it in a smaller population centre - but if you're not from Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli/Newport or Ponty then (in your words) you're still not part of a region - but you've just narrowed you're market.

Or is there different rules for Ponty to Llanelli/Newport/Cardiff/Swansea?

So you're plan to improving regional rugby in Wales is to -

1. Move a region from a large population centre to a smaller population centre (smaller than Llanelli).

2. Disband an established region with a new stadium/stand and replace with another region without money, modern infrastrucutre or much sponsorship.

3. This new region will have a fraction (40% max) of the playing budget of the existing region, and will have to invest large amounts of money on marketing, branding and brand awareness to entice new supporters to spend £260 just to see their team. But somehow this region will become much more competitive than an established region with a proper academy set up, international players, age grade internationals and a larger squad.

4. The new region will be on my doorstep so I can watch top flight rugby and to fek the rest of you because I am getting what I want.
I'm sorry but your reasoning seems a little flawed to me....

Fixed

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

No the regions can't be true regions coz their not based in Ponty! If a team is in Ponty it automatically represents every area from Neath to Abergavenny, and Taffs Well to Merthyr.

Simples