The Valleys business plan.

by Shifty Sun 01 Apr 2012, 4:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:35 pm

Cheers SS

by Irish Londoner Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:36 pm

Would the Valleys plan have more credibility and impact if they were to present the WRU with a fait accompli: i.e. get the various sponsors named above to start investing in Sardis Road now to develop the stadium and boost the team - turn Ponty into a Welsh Premiership "superclub" by drafting in the best players from all the valley clubs (on one year deals) who've signed up to the plan and put everything into winning the B & I Cup this season.
Take a few famous scalps on the way, get rocking full houses for every home game and a large travelling support to the aways and keep pressing the WRU.
If the valleys could demonstrate that they had the sign up from the fans then surely Rabo Status would have to follow for the Valley Commandos - I love that name!

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:39 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

No the regions can't be true regions coz their not based in Ponty! If a team is in Ponty it automatically represents every area from Neath to Abergavenny, and Taffs Well to Merthyr.

Simples

I was talking to my old man about this. The Welsh PRem will be (With the regions we have)

Blues - Cardiff, Ponty, Bedwas
Dragons - Ebbw, Newport, Cross Keys
Ospreys - Swansea, Neath, Bridgend
Scarlets - Carmarthen Quins, Llanelli, Llandovery

And the regions are neglecting teams from with their regions so the Valleys Region is needed and the PRem will be divided

Blues - Cardiff
Dragons - Newport
Ospreys - Swansea
Scarlets - Llanelli, Carmarthen Quins (to far west to care about)
Valleys - Ponty, Bedwas, Ebbw, Cross Keys, Neath, Bridgend, Llandovery

That seems like it will really work.

by munkian Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:41 pm

And Llanelli (for example) has won what of signifiance ?

When are sports teams disbanded due to underpeforming rather than folding financially ? In comparison, we seem to be doing better financially than the other regions, aren't overspending on ropey mercanaries and have build new stands within our means

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:43 pm

Folks, just a reminder, attack the post not the poster - I've had to do some editing up-thread. There's no point in wrecking a list of good points by punctuating them with snide comments about the person you're debating with. This thread's been running surprisingly well for a long time with people arguing about the issues, lets keep it going.

by Casartelli Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:45 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:45 pm

munkian wrote:And Llanelli (for example) has won what of signifiance ?

When are sports teams disbanded due to underpeforming rather than folding financially ? In comparison, we seem to be doing better financially than the other regions, aren't overspending on ropey mercanaries and have build new stands within our means

They won the Welsh prem the season before last. Not sure what they have to do with anything.

If your saying what have the Scarlets won compared to the Dragons, that would be a Celtic League, and we have also had a HEC Semi-Final, a EDF Final (and two semi-finals), an Amlin Semi-Final, and a Celtic Cup Final. Also we ahve been in the HEC every year, and have only been in the Amin as a 'parahcute' team. So to be fair I think we have more accomplishments thatn the Dragons. But again what does that have to do with anything?

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:49 pm

munkian wrote:And Llanelli (for example) has won what of signifiance ?

When are sports teams disbanded due to underpeforming rather than folding financially ? In comparison, we seem to be doing better financially than the other regions, aren't overspending on ropey mercanaries and have build new stands within our means

Ahh but you'll be disbanded for a team that disbanded financially - because the regions aren't doing well financially!

It's great which ever way you look at it. The reasoning is either - 1. the regions are underperforming so we will replace 1 with a under strength youth team or 2. the regions and financially unsound so we will replace them with a critically under funded team who is reliant on 100 fans paying £100 annually on top of season tickets/merchandise that may/may not turn up - to give the new team a fraction of the budget of the Italian teams. Or 3. the Dragons is a 'Super-club' only representing Newport (sorry Munkian, Gwent valleys fans don't count apparently) - so to improve regionalisation the Dragons will be disbanded and a team put in Pontypridd, as that will represent true regionalisation.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:50 pm

Casartelli wrote:Following the PWC report which I haven't seen and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model.

Thank you, Mystic Meg.

by Morgannwg Tue 14 Aug 2012, 3:51 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

Yeah and a Valleys Rugby team will turn all this around in a miraculous fashion. So despite all the facts being put across to the VR bandwagon you were spot on all along.

by munkian Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:02 pm

Woah there...

Never mind your list of 'also rans' , he was using 'sucessfull' as to whether a region should still exist - I was enquiring as to why the Dragons should be singled out whilst other regions are Ok - I used Scarlets as an example, I could have used the Blues.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:02 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions PyS is the only A+ stadium in West Wales, so not sure if you are suggesting Scarlets build a new stadium in Haverdfordwest or Lampter to move games around
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales. I see now you are admitting crowds have been improving, a change from your previous statement that crowds are getting worse? Not sure what evidence you have that crowds would be better in Ponty watching youth players getting hammered every game?
- year after year they are dire. Of the top of my head, since regionalisation we've won around half a dozen Celtic League titles, gotten to 3 (i think) HEC Semi finals, been represented in every Celtic League Play off, Won an EDF cup and Amlin cup, gotten to 2 Amlin semi finals, two EDF semi finals, and won an LV Cup. but of course it was much better during the pro club days...

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really? So you're suggestion is to replace 1 of the regions with a VR youth team, and you reckon within 10 years they will get to a HEC final (or win), win more than 3 Rabo Direct titles and get attendances of 10k+, otherwise by your standards they will be a failure/dire?

Anyways, following the PWC report (how do you know, the report hasn't been released yet?, if this is conjecture please don't pass it off as fact and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the Barclays debt has been reduced to manageable porportions, that is how the WRU managed to repay ahead of schedule and renegotiate the terms/interest payments the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. could we have a link to any WRU statements to this effect? or any plans in place to buy either the player contracts from the regional benefactors, or buy the regions from the benefactors? Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

by Casartelli Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:03 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

Yeah and a Valleys Rugby team will turn all this around in a miraculous fashion. So despite all the facts being put across to the VR bandwagon you were spot on all along.

I've never said I wanted to see a Valleys team??? It's a stupid idea. What's the point in another mediocre team in Wales? What I said was, under the current set up, they have as much right to pitch the idea of a regional team as Llanelli, Ospreys, Cardiff or Newport do.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:06 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

Yeah and a Valleys Rugby team will turn all this around in a miraculous fashion. So despite all the facts being put across to the VR bandwagon you were spot on all along.

I've never said I wanted to see a Valleys team??? It's a stupid idea. What's the point in another mediocre team in Wales? What I said was, under the current set up, they have as much right to pitch the idea of a regional team as Llanelli, Ospreys, Cardiff or Newport do.

Despite all the evidence and opinions presented on this thread (and elsewhere) that would indicate that a VR team would make all of the above drastically worse?

And you may have missed a point somewhere along the way - Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Llanelli aren't regions they play in Premiership

by Casartelli Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:09 pm

There's no evidence that the Valleys team would be any worse. Only speculation.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:13 pm

Ahh of course because of course a team with a playing budget of £1.2m with no player on more than £80k, with the big hope that fans will fork out £100 (with no evidence) on top of a season ticket, otherwise the playing budget shrinks. Will do so much better than regions with 3 times as much playing budget, with internationals on around £200k-£350k (2.5-4 times as much as the VR highest earners).

But the question does spring to mind - if you can do much better with less money (and with fans paying 2-3 times as much for the pleasure) then why aren't the regions, Leinster, Munster and in fact every team doing it?

by Morgannwg Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:14 pm

Casartelli wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

Yeah and a Valleys Rugby team will turn all this around in a miraculous fashion. So despite all the facts being put across to the VR bandwagon you were spot on all along.

I've never said I wanted to see a Valleys team??? It's a stupid idea. What's the point in another mediocre team in Wales? What I said was, under the current set up, they have as much right to pitch the idea of a regional team as Llanelli, Ospreys, Cardiff or Newport do.

Given the economical climate of where they would be based, no they don't.

by glamorganalun Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:19 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:glamorganalun, can I ask you which region you support? It's clear you don't support the Dragons, yet you live in Torfaen.

Still no answer, Alun?

I support all the regions and want them all to do well especially in the HC, I am not one of the supporters that hope another region fails to perform on the field. I supported the Warriors for their short life as I was born and brought up in the upper Rhondda, so I now pick and choose games to watch. I was tempted to buy an Ospreys seaon ticket this season as part of their two for one offer but as we all know when and what time will the games kick off. If I lived closer to Swansea I probably would have taken up the offer this season (time/distance and cost).

If there is a local derby I hope the Dragons win and in style hence my concern about their future and how they are not run. If the Dragons management maintain the status quo I would rather see someone else have a go, they could not do any worse.

by Casartelli Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:20 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Casartelli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we're back to the bogus argument that the regions can't be true regions because they don't farm their games around.

To expand slightly (and Ospreys aside);

- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

The Welsh national team has never been so popular, and yet rugby elsewhere in Wales has never been looked at with such bored indifference. You happy with another ten years of this? Really?

Anyways, following the PWC report and regional auditors' damning reports on the state of the game in Wales - when the Barclays debt is reduced to manageable proportions the WRU are going to tear up the current structure and implement a professional, sustainable model. Until then, best wishes to all the current teams.

Yeah and a Valleys Rugby team will turn all this around in a miraculous fashion. So despite all the facts being put across to the VR bandwagon you were spot on all along.

I've never said I wanted to see a Valleys team??? It's a stupid idea. What's the point in another mediocre team in Wales? What I said was, under the current set up, they have as much right to pitch the idea of a regional team as Llanelli, Ospreys, Cardiff or Newport do.

Given the economical climate of where they would be based, no they don't.

'Economical' climate??? Anyway, the population of RCT is significantly larger than that of Newport, with similar levels of unemployment. Crowds would stand a good chance (in my opinion, I cannot produce evidence of future events) of being bigger and the rugby couldn't be any worse.

by munkian Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:22 pm

And they certainly don't at the expense of an established region.

If anywhere else in Wales s going to get a region its the North - and that will take years and years of careful planning and growth.

by Smirnoffpriest Tue 14 Aug 2012, 4:28 pm

Not answering my posts cyril?

And u cant compare rct to newport (unless u also compare ponty to gwent), like for like is newport city to ponty town or gwent to rct

by Stone Motif Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:09 am

Looks like Casartelli's argument has been shot to absolute bits by regional fans from the length and breadth of Wales. Again. If you're out there in la la land Cas I'd still like to hear your take on why if you're right and there are legions of untapped clubs and supporters left out by regionalism why have none of them paid a pound to get some representation back by taking on half of the Dragons? And by answer I mean answer not some ridiculous anti Newport rant interspersed with a worrying strand of Ospreys fetishism...

by Stone Motif Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:25 am

glamorganalun wrote:
I support all the regions and want them all to do well especially in the HC, I am not one of the supporters that hope another region fails to perform on the field... If the Dragons management maintain the status quo I would rather see someone else have a go, they could not do any worse.

Alun so we're meant to be bankrupting ourselves in an attempt to live with French clubs who have playing budgets 10 times the size of the Dragons or we should let someone with less cash have a go? It couldn't be worse? With a team of kids and half the dosh? Do me a favour.

by Guest Wed 15 Aug 2012, 4:17 am

Casartelli wrote:- don't play (even warm-up or LV) games around their regions
- promote town names (Cardiff and Newport especially - but even 'Scarlets' is obviously Llanelli, because of historic context, so they're not kidding anyone)
- can't attract decent crowds (even if they have 'had a slight uplift' (because they include season tickets regardless of whether they show up) for teams that are supposed to represent the regions of Wales.
- year after year they are dire.

Firstly, the Dragons have played games away from RP (warm up seeing as you choose to include them), so it's inaccurate to suggest otherwise and keep using the playing in Newport card. A quick search through our fixture lists over the years sees games at Pontypool and Crosskeys.

Next, the promote town name arguement is a little tiresome now from the disenfranchised lot. All you see is Newport in the name, conveniently forgetting the Gwent in the title also, the logo shaped as a G and Men of Gwent on the collar. It's almost as laughable as people who try clinging onto the fact the Dragons still had a bit of amber on their kit.

The can't attract decent crowds is a bit pointless too, as attendances generally rise every year, so there's no issue. Every province/club had small attendances at first. I'd question who doesn't include season tickets as attendees though, no matter what sport as it's obviously a seat/spot on terrace sold anyway.

Seeing as you keep mentioning the Ospreys and other "disenfranchised" guys see them as the nearest thing to a true region, how many games have the Dragons postponed due to not being able to field a front row? I don't want to put the boot into anybody here, but it's funny how trivial things like where games are played seem more important than matters like that.

by munkian Wed 15 Aug 2012, 7:24 am

I dont think the new Dragons kit has amber on it at all now. It's very much black with hints of red

by Casartelli Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:08 am

Stone Motif wrote:Looks like Casartelli's argument has been shot to absolute bits by regional fans from the length and breadth of Wales. Again. If you're out there in la la land Cas I'd still like to hear your take on why if you're right and there are legions of untapped clubs and supporters left out by regionalism why have none of them paid a pound to get some representation back by taking on half of the Dragons? And by answer I mean answer not some ridiculous anti Newport rant interspersed with a worrying strand of Ospreys fetishism...

Hi Stone. 'Regional fans the length and breadth of Wales" made me smile, fair play. Two Scarlets fans and three Dragons fans had a different opinion to mine. Whereas, however, they debated really well, you resorted to name calling(!). Can't really be bothered with that stuff myself, having now left school.

Most rugby fans "the length and breadth of Wales" continue to be frustrated by the lack of any significant 'regional' success.

So, I hope Dragons and the other Welsh teams have a really good season, I'd love to see them do well. More of the same for yet another year however and some radical changes will be inevitable.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:29 am

I'm sure you know this already, Cas, but only one side per season can win the Pro 12. Only one side per season can win the Heineken Cup. Same goes for the Amlin, the LV, every tournament in which the regions compete. In any league or cup tournament that's genuinely competetive, you shouldn't expect success (success as in winning the thing) nor despair when that success doesn't come. Even if the regions were minted and were signing the best players of the southern hemisphere (which would be just great for nurturing young Welsh players), there would be no guarantee that they'd be winning trophies.

The regions are supposed to develop young Welsh players. They're doing so.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:46 am

Not answering my posts cyril?

by Stone Motif Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:32 am

Casartelli wrote:
Hi Stone. 'Regional fans the length and breadth of Wales" made me smile, fair play. Two Scarlets fans and three Dragons fans had a different opinion to mine. Whereas, however, they debated really well, you resorted to name calling(!). Can't really be bothered with that stuff myself, having now left school.

Most rugby fans "the length and breadth of Wales" continue to be frustrated by the lack of any significant 'regional' success.

So, I hope Dragons and the other Welsh teams have a really good season, I'd love to see them do well. More of the same for yet another year however and some radical changes will be inevitable.

Well you've been back to school on this thread that's for sure. You don't seem to have learnt anything though. Leaving aside the supposition and hypocrisy of claiming again there are legions of fans out there disappointed with regions but not willing to spend a single penny to support them, are you incapable of answering questions? Why have none of these clubs and there supporters taken over the Dragons? They could change the name and move games where they pleased then achieving instant HC success for the price of a lottery ticket.

by Guest Wed 15 Aug 2012, 4:30 pm

munkian wrote:I dont think the new Dragons kit has amber on it at all now. It's very much black with hints of red

Nah, I know. It still won't be good enough though.

by Morgannwg Wed 15 Aug 2012, 4:33 pm

So that would be two Regions who have had a Neath styled kit now, but no complaints from any of the disenfranchised lot about how it isn't a regional type of jersey.

by munkian Wed 15 Aug 2012, 4:53 pm

Funny that eh ?

by Morgannwg Wed 15 Aug 2012, 5:02 pm

Bizarre. This brigade of disenfranchised lot are the strangest rugby fans I have ever come across. After the fuss Bridgend and other valleys were kicking up they decide to switch codes and follow the Crusaders. When they have to move home for financial purposes and because of the need for a better ground with a higher capacity; they follow the team in numbers to Rodney Parade. And then to North Wales. Needless to say the Crusaders have now been disbanded the fans are once again 'disenfranchised'. Talk about a viscious circle...

by glamorganalun Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:16 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:
I support all the regions and want them all to do well especially in the HC, I am not one of the supporters that hope another region fails to perform on the field... If the Dragons management maintain the status quo I would rather see someone else have a go, they could not do any worse.
Alun so we're meant to be bankrupting ourselves in an attempt to live with French clubs who have playing budgets 10 times the size of the Dragons or we should let someone with less cash have a go? It couldn't be worse? With a team of kids and half the dosh? Do me a favour.

Hi Stone,

You answered your own question, it will be half the cost to have the same lack success of the Dragons over 10 years. Yes the French have massive budgets but the other Welsh regions don't do too bad against them in the HC at home, in the case of the Scarlets they have a respectable away record in France over the years (they can't beat the Irish). Before regional rugby Pontypridd had far more success than the Dragons in the HC/AMLIN (losing finalists) so I can't see why they should be worse than the Dragons if they have the same funding as the Dragons from the WRU. I am just making a point and don't support a Ponty only region, I prefer a North region with additional funding from the WRU with or without the Dragons, I prefer with. With the release of a number of players from our regions this year the standard of our club rugby should go up as these guys should be playing rather than sitting on benches so hopefully there should be more talent fighting their way back into the regions.

Just a question, if the Dragons were disbanded would you go and support your region in Cardiff Arms Park?

by munkian Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:23 pm

Living in Bristol, I can just about make it to Friday games at Rodney parade, wouldn't make it to Cardiff. I guess if the Dragons were disbanded I would just support the other regions bu watching games on Tv which I try to already.

I don't think the Dragons are going anywhere though

by glamorganalun Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:14 pm

Munkian:

It is hard enough getting to a game on a Friday night when you work in Newport, this is one reason the crowds could improve i.e., playing Sat or Sundays every week. I do enjoy the evening matches with a beer in front of the TV but it doe not help crowds at the games.

I don't think you meant to say "I don't think the Dragons are going anywhere though " in a negative context, that is my take on the Dragons to date.

Cheers have a good evening.

by Stone Motif Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:23 pm

glamorganalun wrote:

You answered your own question, it will be half the cost to have the same lack success of the Dragons over 10 years. Yes the French have massive budgets but the other Welsh regions don't do too bad against them in the HC at home, in the case of the Scarlets they have a respectable away record in France over the years (they can't beat the Irish).

Nonsense. It would be half the cost to see something that struggled twice as much. The Dragons don't do too bad against the French at home either, we beat Perpignan this very year, again, and have also beaten Castres, Brive, Stade Francais and Bayonne in European competition, on a shoestring.

glamorganalun wrote: Before regional rugby Pontypridd had far more success than the Dragons in the HC/AMLIN (losing finalists) so I can't see why they should be worse than the Dragons if they have the same funding as the Dragons from the WRU.

Eh? Far more success? Pontypridd never even qualified for the Heineken Cup as they never finished high enough in the league! OK so they went one better in the old Parker Pen but arguably with an easier run. If you think the WRU funding alone (which isn't even WRU funding really) would get you even that far you have got to be having a laugh.

glamorganalun wrote: Just a question, if the Dragons were disbanded would you go and support your region in Cardiff Arms Park?

Why, what's that got to do with the price of fish?

by glamorganalun Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:48 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:

You answered your own question, it will be half the cost to have the same lack success of the Dragons over 10 years. Yes the French have massive budgets but the other Welsh regions don't do too bad against them in the HC at home, in the case of the Scarlets they have a respectable away record in France over the years (they can't beat the Irish).

Nonsense. It would be half the cost to see something that struggled twice as much. The Dragons don't do too bad against the French at home either, we beat Perpignan this very year, again, and have also beaten Castres, Brive, Stade Francais and Bayonne in European competition, on a shoestring.

glamorganalun wrote: Before regional rugby Pontypridd had far more success than the Dragons in the HC/AMLIN (losing finalists) so I can't see why they should be worse than the Dragons if they have the same funding as the Dragons from the WRU.

Eh? Far more success? Pontypridd never even qualified for the Heineken Cup as they never finished high enough in the league! OK so they went one better in the old Parker Pen but arguably with an easier run. If you think the WRU funding alone (which isn't even WRU funding really) would get you even that far you have got to be having a laugh.

glamorganalun wrote: Just a question, if the Dragons were disbanded would you go and support your region in Cardiff Arms Park?

Why, what's that got to do with the price of fish?

Stone:

Attending a number of the games against Brive, Leicester and Bath you are mis-informed, see link below:

I think I asked a fair question, many on these forums have a go at Ponty supports not following the Blues, if the same happened to you would you, Newport is only one train stop from Cardiff?

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/statistics/team_statistics.php?includeref=859&teamid=27

by Stone Motif Thu 16 Aug 2012, 7:09 am

glamorganalun wrote:
Stone:

Attending a number of the games against Brive, Leicester and Bath you are mis-informed, see link below:

Apologies, that should have said Ponty never even qualified in the years leading up to the switch to regional rugby. They did of course have some good results way back when in the day. Interesting you bring this up though, as did the effort to try and keep up with the rest of Europe not see the club rendered insolvent and see many players defect to Cardiff? Anyway, I stand by the assertation that Ponty were already falling away from the pack by the turn of the decade and definitely so prior to regionalism.

As for the link, try putting in 'Newport Gwent Dragons' to the squad selector and see who has the better record, bearing in mind which team is arguably playing in a competition much tougher than it was in the nineties, and subject to some harsh fixture scheduling because of the seeding system.

glamorganalun wrote:
I think I asked a fair question, many on these forums have a go at Ponty supports not following the Blues, if the same happened to you would you, Newport is only one train stop from Cardiff?

I'm a Risca boy, so your question is irrelevant. Newport is and has always been the town of the Gwent Valleys, at least until the Welsh Government decided to sacrifice it on the altar of Cardiff. Certainly the Gwent Valleys do not have that close relationship with the capital historically that you in Glamorgan do. Indeed, it could be said that Ponty and RCT in general is reliant on Cardiff and will be even more so in the future, with around 20,000 people from RCT commuting into work there every singly day, no doubt mumbling their utter disgust with the place and chanting 'ole, ole, ole, Ponty, Ponty' all the way...

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2012, 8:11 am

glamorganalun wrote:Munkian:

It is hard enough getting to a game on a Friday night when you work in Newport, this is one reason the crowds could improve i.e., playing Sat or Sundays every week. I do enjoy the evening matches with a beer in front of the TV but it doenot help crowds at the games.

I don't think you meant to say "I don't think the Dragons are going anywhere though " in a negative context, that is my take on the Dragons to date.

Cheers have a good evening.

I'm sorry but it would be a piece of urine to get to Rodney Parade on a Friday night if I still lived in Newport, Its right in the middle of the City Centre. It's 10 mins from the train and Bus Station.

And you've reverted to taking my statements out of context ? It's obvious what I meant

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:06 am

munkian wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:Munkian:

It is hard enough getting to a game on a Friday night when you work in Newport, this is one reason the crowds could improve i.e., playing Sat or Sundays every week. I do enjoy the evening matches with a beer in front of the TV but it doenot help crowds at the games.

I don't think you meant to say "I don't think the Dragons are going anywhere though " in a negative context, that is my take on the Dragons to date.

Cheers have a good evening.

I'm sorry but it would be a piece of urine to get to Rodney Parade on a Friday night if I still lived in Newport, Its right in the middle of the City Centre. It's 10 mins from the train and Bus Station.

And you've reverted to taking my statements out of context ? It's obvious what I meant

If I can put int a full days work, and get to PYS (60 miles away) in time for a friday night kick-off then there is no chance in hell that you could struggle to make it to kick-off at Dave Parade if you live and work in the 'Port (unless you work 12 nonn till 8pm or something)

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:14 am

And it would be even harder to get to any other stadium in Gwent or to whatever other 'region' sprang up

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:29 am

munkian wrote:And it would be even harder to get to any other stadium in Gwent or to whatever other ~~'region'~~ self serving faux-region superclub sprang up

Fixed

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:33 am

That was implied Wink

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:40 am

JUst been on the Valleys website to nose around, the link to register you interest in helping to bank-roll the region doesn't even work. That is not exactly usefull when your in need of every penny.

by munkian Thu 16 Aug 2012, 9:56 am

Isn't the politician involved with it a jumped up little Poopie stirrer ?

by Smirnoffpriest Thu 16 Aug 2012, 10:34 am

munkian wrote:Isn't the politician involved with it a jumped up little Poopie stirrer ?

Yup he is, and even worse he's the Shadow Welsh Secretary! can't believe he's replaced Peter Hain!

by glamorganalun Fri 17 Aug 2012, 5:08 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
munkian wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:Munkian:

It is hard enough getting to a game on a Friday night when you work in Newport, this is one reason the crowds could improve i.e., playing Sat or Sundays every week. I do enjoy the evening matches with a beer in front of the TV but it doenot help crowds at the games.

I don't think you meant to say "I don't think the Dragons are going anywhere though " in a negative context, that is my take on the Dragons to date.

Cheers have a good evening.

I'm sorry but it would be a piece of urine to get to Rodney Parade on a Friday night if I still lived in Newport, Its right in the middle of the City Centre. It's 10 mins from the train and Bus Station.

And you've reverted to taking my statements out of context ? It's obvious what I meant

If I can put int a full days work, and get to PYS (60 miles away) in time for a friday night kick-off then there is no chance in hell that you could struggle to make it to kick-off at Dave Parade if you live and work in the 'Port (unless you work 12 nonn till 8pm or something)

For me it is no longer relevant as I have recently retired. When i worked in Newport last season I rarely finished before 6pm or I was on the road so getting home and back on a Friday night was rarely an option, also, I would have to drive and park (behind the rail station, another 15mins away) as our bus service to Cwmbran stops at 5pm, great!

by glamorganalun Fri 17 Aug 2012, 7:45 pm

Stone:

Apologies, that should have said Ponty never even qualified in the years leading up to the switch to regional rugby. They did of course have some good results way back when in the day. Interesting you bring this up though, as did the effort to try and keep up with the rest of Europe not see the club rendered insolvent and see many players defect to Cardiff? Anyway, I stand by the assertation that Ponty were already falling away from the pack by the turn of the decade and definitely so prior to regionalism.

As for the link, try putting in 'Newport Gwent Dragons' to the squad selector and see who has the better record, bearing in mind which team is arguably playing in a competition much tougher than it was in the nineties, and subject to some harsh fixture scheduling because of the seeding system.

Stone:

Yes i had a look at Newport and the Dragons, the most interesting was the crowds prior to regions, they looked pretty health but Newport's crowds dropped when they were in the Parker Pen/Amlin (not like Ponty as they had success) but were good in the HC.

I don't go with your comments about defections to Cardiff, that always happened over the years to increase the chances of playing for Wales, no change there. Many of the Ponty players moved to the Celtic Warriors squad below, many formed the basis of the 2005 GS team. Additional to the squad below the likes of Matt Rees and ian Evans came through Ponty.

I also disagree about it being easier in the 90's the English and French teams are still clubs to this day, teams like Leicester, Bath and the French teams were almost unbeatable in their leagues then (they had imports then like the Celtic Warriors), they are not so powerful now. From what I remember Ponty did very well at home and put up good performances on the road. The Celtic Warrior only had one season in the HC and came second in their group to Wasps (who they beat at Wasps), have the Dragons ever been second in a group in 10 years?

Brent Cockbain (Lock) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005
Wales Gareth Cooper (Scrum Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Mefin Davies (Hooker) - Wales International
Wales Chris Horsman (Prop) - Wales International (Bridgend)
Wales Dafydd James (Wing/Centre) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2001
Wales Ryan Jones (Flanker/No.8) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Gethin Jenkins (Prop) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 and 2009
Wales Neil Jenkins (Outside-Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 1997 and 2001, Former World Record Points Scorer
Wales Christian Loader (Prop) - Wales International
Tonga Sililo Martens (Scrum-Half) - Tonga International (Import)
Tonga Maama Molitika (Flanker) - Tonga International (Bridgend)
Wales Kevin Morgan (Full-back) - Wales International
Wales Sonny Parker (Centre) - Wales International
Wales Richard Parks (Flanker) - Wales International
Wales Robert Sidoli (Lock) - Wales International
Wales Ceri Sweeney (Outside-Half) - Wales International
Wales Gareth Thomas (Wing/Centre/Full-back) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Captain 2nd and 3rd Tests)- Former Welsh Record Try Scorer (Bridgend)
Wales Lee Thomas (Centre/Outside-Half) - Wales Youth International
Wales Gareth Wyatt (Wing) - Wales International
Wales Jonathan Bryant (Centre) - Wales International

by LordDowlais Mon 20 Aug 2012, 9:22 am

glamorganalun wrote:Stone:

Apologies, that should have said Ponty never even qualified in the years leading up to the switch to regional rugby. They did of course have some good results way back when in the day. Interesting you bring this up though, as did the effort to try and keep up with the rest of Europe not see the club rendered insolvent and see many players defect to Cardiff? Anyway, I stand by the assertation that Ponty were already falling away from the pack by the turn of the decade and definitely so prior to regionalism.

As for the link, try putting in 'Newport Gwent Dragons' to the squad selector and see who has the better record, bearing in mind which team is arguably playing in a competition much tougher than it was in the nineties, and subject to some harsh fixture scheduling because of the seeding system.

Stone:

Yes i had a look at Newport and the Dragons, the most interesting was the crowds prior to regions, they looked pretty health but Newport's crowds dropped when they were in the Parker Pen/Amlin (not like Ponty as they had success) but were good in the HC.

I don't go with your comments about defections to Cardiff, that always happened over the years to increase the chances of playing for Wales, no change there. Many of the Ponty players moved to the Celtic Warriors squad below, many formed the basis of the 2005 GS team. Additional to the squad below the likes of Matt Rees and ian Evans came through Ponty.

I also disagree about it being easier in the 90's the English and French teams are still clubs to this day, teams like Leicester, Bath and the French teams were almost unbeatable in their leagues then (they had imports then like the Celtic Warriors), they are not so powerful now. From what I remember Ponty did very well at home and put up good performances on the road. The Celtic Warrior only had one season in the HC and came second in their group to Wasps (who they beat at Wasps), have the Dragons ever been second in a group in 10 years?

Brent Cockbain (Lock) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005
Wales Gareth Cooper (Scrum Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Mefin Davies (Hooker) - Wales International
Wales Chris Horsman (Prop) - Wales International (Bridgend)
Wales Dafydd James (Wing/Centre) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2001
Wales Ryan Jones (Flanker/No.8) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Gethin Jenkins (Prop) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 and 2009
Wales Neil Jenkins (Outside-Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 1997 and 2001, Former World Record Points Scorer
Wales Christian Loader (Prop) - Wales International
Tonga Sililo Martens (Scrum-Half) - Tonga International (Import)
Tonga Maama Molitika (Flanker) - Tonga International (Bridgend)
Wales Kevin Morgan (Full-back) - Wales International
Wales Sonny Parker (Centre) - Wales International
Wales Richard Parks (Flanker) - Wales International
Wales Robert Sidoli (Lock) - Wales International
Wales Ceri Sweeney (Outside-Half) - Wales International
Wales Gareth Thomas (Wing/Centre/Full-back) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Captain 2nd and 3rd Tests)- Former Welsh Record Try Scorer (Bridgend)
Wales Lee Thomas (Centre/Outside-Half) - Wales Youth International
Wales Gareth Wyatt (Wing) - Wales International
Wales Jonathan Bryant (Centre) - Wales International

You have left off Micheal Owen, Wales captain and British Lions No. 8, Cory Harris who was being touted as Martyn William's replacement/backup at no. 7(when Welsh qualified), Elvis Ev'ali(sprelling) who's shorts were to small for his thighs and was a Samoan international, and didn't Matthew Reese play for the Warriors before he went to the Scarlets after they were disbanded ?

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