The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

LordDowlais wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:Stone:

Apologies, that should have said Ponty never even qualified in the years leading up to the switch to regional rugby. They did of course have some good results way back when in the day. Interesting you bring this up though, as did the effort to try and keep up with the rest of Europe not see the club rendered insolvent and see many players defect to Cardiff? Anyway, I stand by the assertation that Ponty were already falling away from the pack by the turn of the decade and definitely so prior to regionalism.

As for the link, try putting in 'Newport Gwent Dragons' to the squad selector and see who has the better record, bearing in mind which team is arguably playing in a competition much tougher than it was in the nineties, and subject to some harsh fixture scheduling because of the seeding system.

Stone:

Yes i had a look at Newport and the Dragons, the most interesting was the crowds prior to regions, they looked pretty health but Newport's crowds dropped when they were in the Parker Pen/Amlin (not like Ponty as they had success) but were good in the HC.

I don't go with your comments about defections to Cardiff, that always happened over the years to increase the chances of playing for Wales, no change there. Many of the Ponty players moved to the Celtic Warriors squad below, many formed the basis of the 2005 GS team. Additional to the squad below the likes of Matt Rees and ian Evans came through Ponty.

I also disagree about it being easier in the 90's the English and French teams are still clubs to this day, teams like Leicester, Bath and the French teams were almost unbeatable in their leagues then (they had imports then like the Celtic Warriors), they are not so powerful now. From what I remember Ponty did very well at home and put up good performances on the road. The Celtic Warrior only had one season in the HC and came second in their group to Wasps (who they beat at Wasps), have the Dragons ever been second in a group in 10 years?

Brent Cockbain (Lock) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005
Wales Gareth Cooper (Scrum Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Mefin Davies (Hooker) - Wales International
Wales Chris Horsman (Prop) - Wales International (Bridgend)
Wales Dafydd James (Wing/Centre) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2001
Wales Ryan Jones (Flanker/No.8) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Bridgend)
Wales Gethin Jenkins (Prop) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 and 2009
Wales Neil Jenkins (Outside-Half) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 1997 and 2001, Former World Record Points Scorer
Wales Christian Loader (Prop) - Wales International
Tonga Sililo Martens (Scrum-Half) - Tonga International (Import)
Tonga Maama Molitika (Flanker) - Tonga International (Bridgend)
Wales Kevin Morgan (Full-back) - Wales International
Wales Sonny Parker (Centre) - Wales International
Wales Richard Parks (Flanker) - Wales International
Wales Robert Sidoli (Lock) - Wales International
Wales Ceri Sweeney (Outside-Half) - Wales International
Wales Gareth Thomas (Wing/Centre/Full-back) - Wales International, British and Irish Lions 2005 (Captain 2nd and 3rd Tests)- Former Welsh Record Try Scorer (Bridgend)
Wales Lee Thomas (Centre/Outside-Half) - Wales Youth International
Wales Gareth Wyatt (Wing) - Wales International
Wales Jonathan Bryant (Centre) - Wales International

You have left off Micheal Owen, Wales captain and British Lions No. 8, Cory Harris who was being touted as Martyn William's replacement/backup at no. 7(when Welsh qualified), Elvis Ev'ali(sprelling) who's shorts were to small for his thighs and was a Samoan international, and didn't Matthew Reese play for the Warriors before he went to the Scarlets after they were disbanded ?

Also, they had Nathan Budget, Welsh international, and both Deiniol Jones and Richard Fussel came through the Celtic Warriors ranks.

Celtic Warriors Squad

Full-backs:
Gareth Wyatt,
Kevin Morgan

Three-quarters:
Aisea Havili,
Gareth Thomas,
Dafydd James,
Sonny Parker,
Jon Bryant,
David Bishop (development contract),
Matthew Nutthall (development contract)

Fly-halves:
Ceri Sweeney,
Neil Jenkins

Scrum-halves:
Paul John,
Sililo Martens,
Gareth Cooper (from Bath)

Props:
Gethin Jenkins,
Phil Booth,
Martin Jones,
Chris Horsman,
Geraint Morris (development contract)

Hookers:
Mefin Davies,
Andrew Joy,
Matthew Rees

Locks:
Robert Sidoli,
Brent Cockbain,
Deiniol Jones,
Ryan Jones

Back rows:
Nick Kelly,
Richard Parks,
Maama Molitika,
Nathan Budgett,
Richard Bryan,
Cory Harris,
Mark Lewis (development contract)

Supplementary list to provide cover during World Cup includes:
Richard Fussell,
Emyr Lewis,
Lee Thomas,
Shaun James,
Tommy Walsh,
Gerald Cox,
Duane Goodfield,
Ian Evans,
Jonathan Edwards



There is no arguing that if supported these would have been the best regional team. However, this was ten years ago, and you can not be sure that the chequebook of Cuddy and Pies would not have proven too much even if the Warriors had remained.

glamorganalun wrote:The Celtic Warrior (sic) only had one season in the HC and came second in their group to Wasps (who they beat at Wasps), have the Dragons ever been second in a group in 10 years?

Are you suggesting that Valleys Rugby should be established in place of the Dragons because the Warriors finished second in their Heneken Cup group?

You've got to love Alyn's cherry pickin use of stats. He's jumping from Ponty to the Celtic Warriors so I'll do the same to make my point. Now I'm not arguing that in the amateur and shamateur days leading up to real pro regions that Ponty did not have an enviable record particularly in youth development. But they finished bottom of their group iirc in their last outing in the Euro Cup. As for the Warriors they only finished second in their group as they had the Italian team and in the league they also finished below the Dragons despite arguably the strongest regional squad. Most critically of all the stats tho is number of insolvencies and I make it Ponty/Warriors 2 Dragons 0. Which area are we saying pro rugby is more viable in again?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:The Celtic Warrior (sic) only had one season in the HC and came second in their group to Wasps (who they beat at Wasps), have the Dragons ever been second in a group in 10 years?

Are you suggesting that Valleys Rugby should be established in place of the Dragons because the Warriors finished second in their Heneken Cup group?

No the point is the Warriors did more in one season than the Dragons in 10!

Stone Motif wrote:You've got to love Alyn's cherry pickin use of stats. He's jumping from Ponty to the Celtic Warriors so I'll do the same to make my point. Now I'm not arguing that in the amateur and shamateur days leading up to real pro regions that Ponty did not have an enviable record particularly in youth development. But they finished bottom of their group iirc in their last outing in the Euro Cup. As for the Warriors they only finished second in their group as they had the Italian team and in the league they also finished below the Dragons despite arguably the strongest regional squad. Most critically of all the stats tho is number of insolvencies and I make it Ponty/Warriors 2 Dragons 0. Which area are we saying pro rugby is more viable in again?

My earlier post demonstrated how many Ponty based players made up the Celtic Warrior team many of them being part of the Wales 2005 GS team, interesting you say Ponty don't bring through many players. I seem to remember Ponty had quite a few U20's Wales players the last couple of seasons and very few from the Dragons.

The only reason I am comparing the Dragons with Ponty is because it seems too be mainly Dragons supporters pouring cold water on the ideas of another possible region (at least they have ideas).

Can you read Alyn.? Clearly above it says that in the amateur and post amateur transition period Ponty did indeed have a purple patch particularly due to a strong development programme. As for the Dragons record we've been shafted as much as Ponty ever were by the WRu who until recently had sole charge of our academy incidentally. How many of the recent under 20's were actually Blues Academy players I wonder. Anyway as for the Warriors they finished below the Dragons in 2004 and you still haven't commented on the insolvency stats yet so have another read of the thread and come back to me.

P.S. The Dragons are solvent? they may be trading but if the auditors state they are concerned, this means there is reason to be concerned. Like the Ospreys and the Blues the Dragons have no assets to sell i.e., these teams don't own their grounds or club houses (Newport RFC and Cardiff RFC own the club grounds unless they come clean that they are not separate entities from the regional partners). The Dragons are losing money and have mounting debts also nothing to show for 10 years of battling and getting nowhere. Why should another franchise not have a go as they would have little to beat. I still believe a North region would be more inclusive than 4/5 southern regions representing clubs south of the M4.

GlamAl I'm a Scarlets fan and I've read plenty of other fans of other regions, including a Wales fan from North Wales and all seem to say the same ie the VR rugby plan is ridiculous and is nowhere near having the funded needed to make a competitive region, while they also want to replace RGC1404.

Many posters seem to think North Wales deserves a region more. I can't see how you can say it's only Dragons fans who see the wholes in these plans. Though it is true that it's mainly Dragons fans who are defending their region against calls on this thread for them to be disbanded in favour of a Ponty region - understandable as well when you consider the history and finances.

glamorganalun wrote:P.S. The Dragons are solvent? they may be trading but if the auditors state they are concerned, this means there is reason to be concerned. Like the Ospreys and the Blues the Dragons have no assets to sell i.e., these teams don't own their grounds or club houses (Newport RFC and Cardiff RFC own the club grounds unless they come clean that they are not separate entities from the regional partners). The Dragons are losing money and have mounting debts also nothing to show for 10 years of battling and getting nowhere. Why should another franchise not have a go as they would have little to beat. I still believe a North region would be more inclusive than 4/5 southern regions representing clubs south of the M4.

How can you state that Dragons are losing money and have mounting debts? I see nothing to suggest that. Care to back that up?

On glamorganalun's behalf - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18765754

the BBC article actually uses the term 'mounting debts'.

To add some balance, I don't recall anyone on here stating that the Dragons should be disbanded in favour of a Valleys team (although I may have once, under provocation from Stone Motif, but I didn't mean it) but rather that the Valleys have as much right to pitch for a pro team as anyone.

There's no written constitution that states that pro rugby must only be based in Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, for the rest of time etc.

No and there's no written constitution that Ponty must have pro rugby, regardless of financial viability

Smirnoffpriest wrote:No and there's no written constitution that Ponty must have pro rugby, regardless of financial viability

If financial viability were the criteria we wouldn't have any pro teams.

Congrats on your 4000th post Smirnoff, btw.

And yet we have four. The economic argument as I have said all along is the only pertinent one in the pro era. Is it viable or is it not is a simple question to answer and it has sod all to do with inclusivity or history or any of this other fairyland nonsense. Pro era means teams based in the major population centres helped out by the generosity of benefactors. Like it or not and in a perfect world it would be different there are only a few places in Wales where pro rugby can be supported. Fact. Proven not once but numerous times by any number of clubs who have gone bust. Until that happens to the Dragons they have no case to answer. One because they are battling on despite that which killed the Warriors overnight (50% ownership by WRU) and two because as my stalkers Cas and Alyn conveniently ignore if any of the other clubs in south east Wales wanted to join the party they could do so for a pound and make all the changes they liked. Bottom line here boys, prove me wrong if you can.

glamorganalun wrote:P.S. The Dragons are solvent? they may be trading but if the auditors state they are concerned, this means there is reason to be concerned. Like the Ospreys and the Blues the Dragons have no assets to sell i.e., these teams don't own their grounds or club houses (Newport RFC and Cardiff RFC own the club grounds unless they come clean that they are not separate entities from the regional partners). The Dragons are losing money and have mounting debts also nothing to show for 10 years of battling and getting nowhere. Why should another franchise not have a go as they would have little to beat. I still believe a North region would be more inclusive than 4/5 southern regions representing clubs south of the M4.

This is nonsense an all. The Dragons are not losing money they owe a relatively small amount to (drum roll) yes you guessed it, Tony Brown. The amount is therefore irrelevant even if there weren't a whole world of difference between running at a loss (as per 90 per cent of pro sports clubs worldwide) and going out of business. And what is this about coming clean? It is common knowledge that Newport RFC hold a 50% share in the Dragons just as it is common knowledge that any other Gwent club can have the half abandoned by Ebbw Vale any time they like. Why don't they is the question?

Stone:
Do you know what debt and loses mean, debts usually incur interest to add to the running costs of the region hence adding to operational losses. If the interest rate is 5% based on the Dragons debts of £2.5M this amounts to £125K without clearing any of the debt. The losses from last years trading is £270k, fact, I am not sure whether the WRU has any responsibly regarding these debts, I suspect not.

Putting you head in the sand does not make the region/s sustainable, what happens when P Thomas pops his cloggs at the Blues or Tony Brown at the Dragons etc, the regions have to make money and soon. Can I see it happening, realistically, no, the next question is which team will go bankrupt first, probably not the Dragons only time will tell?.

I know exactly what it means. Do you know the exact terms of the loan? Tony Brown owns Rodney Parade lock stock pretty much do you think this man is going to let the main earner at RP go out of business? Very few sports clubs make a profit and our debt is to the bloke who needs us to survive to bring money into the stadium. Now he doesn't subsidise the playing squad so let me think where all that money of his is going...arguably we may have already paid the rest off by savings on recruitment. Anyway answer the question why don't any of the so called disenfranchised Valley clubs buy out the WRU from the Dragons?

Morning Stone, late night?

You've raised this point about why other clubs don't buy the WRU's 50% share in Dragons Rugby Ltd a few times. I'm not sure whether it's a serious question, you do have that subtle sense of humour, but at a guess...

...a club buying half of Dragons Rugby would also be buying into £2.65m worth of debt. Debt that has been increasing relentlessly year on year and where the accounts reveal "a material uncertainty which may cast significant doubt about the company's ability to continue as a going concern" (the auditors words, not mine).

That's not an attractive deal, even for a pound.

Almost certain bankruptcy. That's why they're not queuing up, Stone.

A cobblers answer. For one thing the debt has only increased substantially since the building of the new stand which leaves years where they haven't chipped in. For another the debt for the stand is owed to a parent company the owner of which is worth tens of millions. For yet another you claim the legion fans of this club who currently don't have pro rugby will be queing up to buy their shirts and season tickets in far greater numbers than the Dragons are able to attract and so the actual debt (circa) 250 grand is negligible. For yet another what's stopping them buying the Dragons for a pound declaring insolvency and forcing the region to fold thereby allowing an all singing all dancing inclusive all conquering valleys region to rise pheonix like from the ashes?

One thing over the last few pages of this argument - the Valleys Team appears to now be interchangable with "Pontypridd" - how long before the other parts of the valleys start feeling unhappy (disenfranchised?) with this?

The finances as laid out above also don't make sense, a huge reliance on RCT council to stump up hundreds of thousands of pounds in a time of deep cuts to public services ("never mind Dai, I know you can't have a proper care package, but look at the lovely new ground in Ponty"), and the scheme of the purchase of £100 a year "shares" relies on a huge amount of goodwill that may not be there year on year - people may take a punt on the first year for the novelty value and out of local pride but year on year to support a development team (who presumably will not be at the races in terms of performance) and pay for match tickets on top is a big ask in what's a fairly impoverished area of the UK. Per the Welsh government 148000 thousand adults (ish) live in RCT - that's a big ask for 10,000 of those to stump up £100 a year every year. Let's be sexist (apologies to Rugbydreamer) and assume that it's likely that mostly males will be buying the shares it now comes down to 74000 people or one in seven RCT residents wanting to do this.
I'd also question the impact on the local teams of a Rabo team on their doorstep, in terms of spending somethings gotta give and would the people putting up this money also continue to support the local side - assuming a large number of the rugby fans identifed already attend or at least support their town team are they going to pay £x per year to Cross Keys or whoever and £100 share and a season ticket to the Valley Team ?
There's a lot of "if you build it they will come" about this rather than definite concrete planning and investment - and at the end of the day it relies on the WRU adding up to £1.5 million a year to keep it floating (money which I assume would have to be taken from either the national team or the current regions) and on "walk in" admission into the Rabo.
The business plan as laid out above would make a great learning tool for undergraduate business studies students but IMHO there are too many holes for it to be viable.

Ah, some common sense at last!

IrishLondoner - the money thing is a real issue, especially as the ability to 'donate' to the 'region' on their website leads to a 'page not found'.

How many of these thousands of Ponty fans turned up for the public rally ? Bet it was less than the average gate at a Dragon's game

munkian wrote:How many of these thousands of Ponty fans turned up for the public rally ? Bet it was less than the average gate at a Dragon's game

N'ah i heard it was over 5 people

When was this rally meant to have happened? I googled it and all I could find was a rally planned for the end of March.

Irish Londoner wrote:One thing over the last few pages of this argument - the Valleys Team appears to now be interchangable with "Pontypridd" - how long before the other parts of the valleys start feeling unhappy (disenfranchised?) with this?
The finances as laid out above also don't make sense, a huge reliance on RCT council to stump up hundreds of thousands of pounds in a time of deep cuts to public services ("never mind Dai, I know you can't have a proper care package, but look at the lovely new ground in Ponty"), and the scheme of the purchase of £100 a year "shares" relies on a huge amount of goodwill that may not be there year on year - people may take a punt on the first year for the novelty value and out of local pride but year on year to support a development team (who presumably will not be at the races in terms of performance) and pay for match tickets on top is a big ask in what's a fairly impoverished area of the UK. What percentage of the RCT area is 10,000 adults?
I'd also question the impact on the local teams of a Rabo team on their doorstep, in terms of spending somethings gotta give and would the people putting up this money also continue to support the local side - assuming a large number of the rugby fans identifed already attend or at least support their town team are they going to pay £x per year to Cross Keys or whoever and £100 share and a season ticket to the Valley Team ?
There's a lot of "if you build it they will come" about this rather than definite concrete planning and investment - and at the end of the day it relies on the WRU adding up to £1.5 million a year to keep it floating (money which I assume would have to be taken from either the national team or the current regions) and on "walk in" admission into the Rabo.
The business plan as laid out above would make a great learning tool for undergraduate business studies students but IMHO there are too many holes for it to be viable.

If there were to be a "valleys" region then it should not be anywhere near Sardis Rd, well not until they upgrade it by about thirty years. If there was to be a region in the valleys then surely it should be in Merthyr Tydfil. They already have a decent enough ground in Penydarren Park which can accomodate ten thousand and they have facilities and a hotel right outside the ground. Also, there are plans to make a Merthyr village, a little like the Garden festival in Ebbw Vale, but all the shops and restraunts will be built around a new Merthyr Tydfil football ground, surely they could piggy back onto this project and ground share with Merthyr F.C. All this talk about the region going to Pontypridd is going backwards, look, I have supported Pontypridd for years, but sadly they have had their chance and it did not work out. Give another bigger town in the Valleys a chance first and then see how it goes, but alas, I still think it should be North Wales who gets the next chance at regionalism.

LordDowlais wrote:I have supported Pontypridd for years, but sadly they have had their chance and it did not work out. Give another bigger town in the Valleys a chance first and then see how it goes, but alas, I still think it should be North Wales who gets the next chance at regionalism.

The thing is it is not about giving any 'town' a chance, it is about finding a place where the people of the region can access easiest, and where the most amount of fans/revenue can be raised.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:How many of these thousands of Ponty fans turned up for the public rally ? Bet it was less than the average gate at a Dragon's game

N'ah i heard it was over 5 people

Funny coming from a Turk

How's the 15000 seater coming along hmm ? Regularly full ? Waiting list for season tickets ? The painfully embarrassing West is best seats still on view due to low atrendences ? Yesssssss...

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have supported Pontypridd for years, but sadly they have had their chance and it did not work out. Give another bigger town in the Valleys a chance first and then see how it goes, but alas, I still think it should be North Wales who gets the next chance at regionalism.

The thing is it is not about giving any 'town' a chance, it is about finding a place where the people of the region can access easiest, and where the most amount of fans/revenue can be raised.

Well then, that sounds like Merthyr Tydfil to me, it has the highest population of all the Valley towns, it has the A470 and A465 which is as we speak is being upgraded running through the center of the town, it has fantastic bus and rail links to all the surrounding valleys, and the town itself is choc a block full of bars and restraunts. Trust me in all my thirty plus years living in this town I have definatley seen a massive improvement there is so much going on here you would'nt believe it.

munkian wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

munkian wrote:How many of these thousands of Ponty fans turned up for the public rally ? Bet it was less than the average gate at a Dragon's game

N'ah i heard it was over 5 people

Funny coming from a Turk

How's the 15000 seater coming along hmm ? Regularly full ? Waiting list for season tickets ? The painfully embarrassing West is best seats still on view due to low atrendences ? Yesssssss...

What can I say, higher average attendance that one of the HEC finalist ain't bad.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, they had Nathan Budget, Welsh international, and both Deiniol Jones and Richard Fussel came through the Celtic Warriors ranks.

Don't hold that against us, it was an accident.

Latest news: http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/23256.php

Does anyone know what the WRU specifically mean? Are they basically saying bog off and find some investors if you can?

Here is a link to Valleys Rugby updated plan: http://www.valleysrugby.com/pilot-business-plan

Whole lotta business-speak in there! But the message seems to be that Valleys Rugby are being told to go off, have a look at what RGC1404 are doing up at Eirias Park and see if they can get any more potential sponsors. Where any Valleys Rugby team would be fitted into things isn't made clear - although it is made clear that there won't be a fifth region any time soon.

Copy what RGC 1404 have done? And not "impact on the current structure of four existing regions and a developing Principality Premiership Division supported by a new National Championship..."

So the WRU may let them, at some point, be a 'Region Valley Cymru' (not clear if they have to put a date like '1404' in there somewhere), playing in the lower leagues, at a ground/grounds yet to be decided, or even built.

Who's going to go and watch them?

Its quite vague on details but theres plenty of reference to the good work done by rgc1404 and north wales which leads me to believe the wru dismissed out of hand VRs claim to take over north wales rugby.

The wru do seem to be telling VR to get additional external funding, but are also underlining that they will stick to the existing 4 regions as well as the new structure of the prem and wont expand/edit it on behalf of Valleys Rugby.

Interstingly theres no mention (or representation) from/of the clubs in the valleys, and whether they are buying into this. However the wru seem to want VR to improve facilities in order to help develop more players, or at least improve development pathways - though theres a sneaky comment saying VR should align themselves with a club/region.

Without more details though this is very much a watch this space

Casartelli wrote:Copy what RGC 1404 have done? And not "impact on the current structure of four existing regions and a developing Principality Premiership Division supported by a new National Championship..."

So the WRU may let them, at some point, be a 'Region Valley Cymru' (not clear if they have to put a date like '1404' in there somewhere), playing in the lower leagues, at a ground/grounds yet to be decided, or even built.

Who's going to go and watch them?

Well i would have thought the 8500 people who are willing to pay £100 plus season ticket to see a development side.

Give it another few years and hopefully north wales will have their own region. They deserve one, there's clearly a market there for one and due to it being the only region in the North, they should get decent crowds, as shown in the U-20's games.

Valley's don't need a region. Most of the kids there are supporting Blues/Ospreys and they are the ones who will grow up with regional rugby. The older generation obviously haven't bought into it really, but clearly the children have so there's no need for a valley's region.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Copy what RGC 1404 have done? And not "impact on the current structure of four existing regions and a developing Principality Premiership Division supported by a new National Championship..."

So the WRU may let them, at some point, be a 'Region Valley Cymru' (not clear if they have to put a date like '1404' in there somewhere), playing in the lower leagues, at a ground/grounds yet to be decided, or even built.

Who's going to go and watch them?

Well i would have thought the 8500 people who are willing to pay £100 plus season ticket to see a development side.

No, they all signed up when this was being promoted by the local MP fella as a Sardis based team, playing top level rugby. Basically, turning Pontypridd into a superclub.

Following this statement by the WRU, those 8500 are going to vanish like virgins on prom night.

I've been looking for over an hour to find what the attendance was for the Premiership Cup Final between Pontypridd and Llanelli, it is not listed, the only reference I can find is in the Eastern Fail where Andy Howell said there was a great atmosphere and there must be over 3000 there. So for their biggest match of the season they can only encourage 3000 odd to attend. To think they can get 10000 to pay £100 and then to part with season ticket money are living on a different Planet, to me the WRU are feeding out enough rope for them to hang themselves with.

Casartelli wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Copy what RGC 1404 have done? And not "impact on the current structure of four existing regions and a developing Principality Premiership Division supported by a new National Championship..."

So the WRU may let them, at some point, be a 'Region Valley Cymru' (not clear if they have to put a date like '1404' in there somewhere), playing in the lower leagues, at a ground/grounds yet to be decided, or even built.

Who's going to go and watch them?

Well i would have thought the 8500 people who are willing to pay £100 plus season ticket to see a development side.

No, they all signed up when this was being promoted by the local MP fella as a Sardis based team, playing top level rugby. Basically, turning Pontypridd into a superclub.

Following this statement by the WRU, those 8500 are going to vanish like virgins on prom night.

The business plan, with 8500 people paying £100 was for a develpment region paying locally produced talent no more than 120k with a playing budget of £1.2m,if it was in the rabo or prem it would not be top class as it wouldnt have enough money/talent/budget and would be trounced by teams like Zebre. They apparntly had 8500 people paying on the understanding that they would only play in the LV cup for the 1st few years.

I have re-read the Valleys business plan where is says:

The North Wales academy would eventually split out into it's own region but the WRU would need to give £1.5m to Valleys rugby for this to happen.

So let me get this straight, The Welsh Government, Conwy Council and the WRU have already worked together and created a 6,000 capacity stadium and academy for North Wales rugby. RGC1404 actually have a squad of contracted players playing in a league. While the academy itself has been running since July 2010. While 9 of the first 11 academy players actually in the RGC squad and 1 more with the Scarlets. And the Valleys wants the WRU to give THEM £1.5m so RGC1404 can branch out and be Independent?

And this is the 4th draft of their business plan...

Shifty wrote:I have re-read the Valleys business plan where is says:

The North Wales academy would eventually split out into it's own region but the WRU would need to give £1.5m to Valleys rugby for this to happen.

So let me get this straight, The Welsh Government, Conwy Council and the WRU have already worked together and created a 6,000 capacity stadium and academy for North Wales rugby. RGC1404 actually have a squad of contracted players playing in a league. While the academy itself has been running since July 2010. While 9 of the first 11 academy players actually in the RGC squad and 1 more with the Scarlets. And the Valleys wants the WRU to give THEM £1.5m so RGC1404 can branch out and be Independent?

And this is the 4th draft of their business plan...

Yeah I thought that bit was in cloud cuckoo land. As is there aim of providing a club mainly based in Ponty for all the disenfranchised fans from Neath to Abergavenny and Taffs Well to Colwyn Bay, encompassing about a third to a half of Wales! (but strangely seem to admit that fans in the Scarlets area aren't disenfranchised by not targeting the 'Dyfed' area)

Smirnoff - I have heard Cas talk about this. I think it is that Carmarthenshire are all happy with the Scarlets, and Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire are dis-enfranchised (but I guess we just don't count )

Thats it I am pushing for a region for the true west of wales and want to see them disband the Ospreys in order to achieve it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Smirnoff - I have heard Cas talk about this. I think it is that Carmarthenshire are all happy with the Scarlets, and Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire are dis-enfranchised (but I guess we just don't count )

Thats it I am pushing for a region for the true west of wales and want to see them disband the Ospreys in order to achieve it.

Go for it SS, you've got a good case - your 3 times the distance from your nearest region than Ponty, the transport links are terrible, you're much less represented than Ponty as at least they have a club in the Welsh Prem while you're clubs are in the 2nd Div West, Div 3 West and 5th Div*, you could be called the Western Blues.
But if it doesn't happen, I'm not sure how a Valleys Rugby team playing games in Ponty, maybe Merthyr and Neath, with apparently a few games in the North, is going to be easier/more representative of West Wales.


(*as far as I can tell)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Smirnoff - I have heard Cas talk about this. I think it is that Carmarthenshire are all happy with the Scarlets, and Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire are dis-enfranchised (but I guess we just don't count )

Thats it I am pushing for a region for the true west of wales and want to see them disband the Ospreys in order to achieve it.

Go for it SS, you've got a good case - your 3 times the distance from your nearest region than Ponty, the transport links are terrible, you're much less represented than Ponty as at least they have a club in the Welsh Prem while you're clubs are in the 2nd Div West, Div 3 West and 5th Div*, you could be called the Western Blues.
But if it doesn't happen, I'm not sure how a Valleys Rugby team playing games in Ponty, maybe Merthyr and Neath, with apparently a few games in the North, is going to be easier/more representative of West Wales.


(*as far as I can tell)

THe Red Kites sounds better. We will be it in Milford Haven and fund it by getting people to pay £50 for a season ticket (based of 200k fans).....

Now that's what I call Blue Sky thinking!

Ooops that was meant to be 20k, not 200.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ooops that was meant to be 20k, not 200.

Still more likely than the Valleys Rugby plan

As hopelessly half-baked as the Valleys rugby plan was, at least they stopped short of asking for £2.5m off the council on a never-never (ever) basis.

The WRU's response is a surprise. By not just shutting this idea down, they're effectively conceding that there remains an area of south Wales (wherever that may be) not represented under the current structure.

Casartelli wrote:As hopelessly half-baked as the Valleys rugby plan was, at least they stopped short of asking for £2.5m off the council on a never-never (ever) basis.

The WRU's response is a surprise. By not just shutting this idea down, they're effectively conceding that there remains an area of south Wales (wherever that may be) not represented under the current structure.

It is the ture west wales, you have told us so many times, and we are organising ourselves. 20k fans at £50 a pop will raise us the funding that will be needed to get the Red Kites, a true region for the west of wales up and running. We have been without professional rugby since professional rugby began. If Ireland can have Connacht why can't we be the new region, it makes sense.