The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:As hopelessly half-baked as the Valleys rugby plan was, at least they stopped short of asking for £2.5m off the council on a never-never (ever) basis.

The WRU's response is a surprise. By not just shutting this idea down, they're effectively conceding that there remains an area of south Wales (wherever that may be) not represented under the current structure.

It is the ture west wales, you have told us so many times, and we are organising ourselves. 20k fans at £50 a pop will raise us the funding that will be needed to get the Red Kites, a true region for the west of wales up and running. We have been without professional rugby since professional rugby began. If Ireland can have Connacht why can't we be the new region, it makes sense.

Anyone should be entitled to make a bid, same as Valleys were, so, yeah, good luck with that one. Roger likes 5 year plans, so plenty of time to put the details together!

Being serious the Valleys plan may be taking a bit of a kick to the knackers with the way RGC have started their life in Div 1 (east). One win and one LBP, out of two, so I am not too sure how much they will be wanting to join forces with a larger entity, which would probably dominate them, when they are appearing to be developing nicely at the moment.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Being serious the Valleys plan may be taking a bit of a kick to the knackers with the way RGC have started their life in Div 1 (east). One win and one LBP, out of two, so I am not too sure how much they will be wanting to join forces with a larger entity, which would probably dominate them, when they are appearing to be developing nicely at the moment.

You never know, by the time VR gets up and running and with only a £1.2m playing budget - RGC1404 might be much better/stronger than VR in 2-3 years time!

Roger Lewis seems to have ruled out a combined RGC/Valleys initiative - he's said he wants Valleys rugby to take note of what they are doing in the north.

I'm surprised he didn't just slam the door on it. If RGC go well they are filling a natural void and a north Wales 'region' at some point in the future would be a positive thing. But what gap would Valleys fill, if they are a 'new' team? They'd be competing for fans with Ponty, Neath, Bridgend etc.

Maybe Roger is hoping it just quietly goes away.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Being serious the Valleys plan may be taking a bit of a kick to the knackers with the way RGC have started their life in Div 1 (east). One win and one LBP, out of two, so I am not too sure how much they will be wanting to join forces with a larger entity, which would probably dominate them, when they are appearing to be developing nicely at the moment.

We've won two from two in the league, I think you'll find?

Well Roger Lewis and the WRU had to do / say something, didn't they? They couldn't have just ignored Valleys Rugby after they'd gone away and put together a business plan, which is what they'd been asked to do. Roger Lewis's response - asking them to go away again and do more work on a business plan - sounds like he's hoping that they don't bother coming back next time.

Casartelli wrote:Roger Lewis seems to have ruled out a combined RGC/Valleys initiative - he's said he wants Valleys rugby to take note of what they are doing in the north.

I'm surprised he didn't just slam the door on it. If RGC go well they are filling a natural void and a north Wales 'region' at some point in the future would be a positive thing. But what gap would Valleys fill, if they are a 'new' team? They'd be competing for fans with Ponty, Neath, Bridgend etc.

Maybe Roger is hoping it just quietly goes away.

Or more likely hoping that the teams that the 'lost fans' (i ain't using disenfranchised, i don't like it and it is too hard to spell/type fast) will band together and share their youth resources into an 'emerging valleys' youth team, and then maybe bring a side into the lower level welsh east divisions and work their way up. It would probably take about 5 or 6 years to reach the prem, but the fan base and ground etc should all have been sorted out.

Casartelli wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Being serious the Valleys plan may be taking a bit of a kick to the knackers with the way RGC have started their life in Div 1 (east). One win and one LBP, out of two, so I am not too sure how much they will be wanting to join forces with a larger entity, which would probably dominate them, when they are appearing to be developing nicely at the moment.

We've won two from two in the league, I think you'll find?

I had it down as two from two

But then I saw

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/fixtures/4777043.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777229.stm

Also if Roger Lewis had just slammed the door in VRs face, then people like the MP Owens and the Western Fail would have caused a huge fuss and would have harped on even more about being poor lil disenfranchised fans who are hated and marginalised by the WRU.

This way it sounds like the WRU are appeasing VR while giving them nothing, and strengthening RGC

BBC appear to have errors in the the Swalec Welsh Division 1 East table.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777229.stm

RGC won against Merthyr last week, and remain unbeaten.

Casartelli wrote:BBC appear to have errors in the the Swalec Welsh Division 1 East table.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777229.stm

RGC won against Merthyr last week, and remain unbeaten.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/results/4776933.stm

Looks like BBC (as ever) got the scores mixed up and RGC1404 won 23-16 - http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/club/swalecleagues/23282.php

Here we go again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19552934

Valleys Rugby (VR) remain determined to form a fifth region following a recent meeting with the Welsh Rugby Union.

A joint statement has been issued that said both organisations would work to explore ways of bringing in new funds and improving facilities.

But even though there was no mention of any future creation of a fifth region, VR board member Adrian Hadley says that remains the ultimate goal.

"They [WRU] were very supportive of what we are trying to do," said Hadley.

"And [they] have sent us away to explore certain avenues to try and move the whole project forward.

"We are looking for a fifth region within the valleys area but we understand the constraints the union are under at the moment with the participation agreement with the four other regions.

"They are all struggling for cash.

"We need to put some infrastructure into the valleys - as Conwy Council have done in North Wales - get involvement within the community, and then increase the participation of rugby within the Valleys at all levels, to, hopefully, get an elite team there."

Early plans outlined by VR when they launched in April 2012 involved playing matches at various club venues around the country, including some in north Wales.

But they are now examining the potential of locating the team at one primary home - either through re-developing an existing stadium such as Pontypridd's Sardis Road, or building a new multi-purpose community stadium with local authority assistance.

Former Wales dual-code wing Hadley added: "We need to look for a facility within the region, whether it be a current ground, or a brand new ground, and build from there.

"But it's still our aim to create a professional outfit within the valleys."

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Here we go again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19552934

Valleys Rugby (VR) remain determined to form a fifth region following a recent meeting with the Welsh Rugby Union.

A joint statement has been issued that said both organisations would work to explore ways of bringing in new funds and improving facilities.

But even though there was no mention of any future creation of a fifth region, VR board member Adrian Hadley says that remains the ultimate goal.

"They [WRU] were very supportive of what we are trying to do," said Hadley.

"And [they] have sent us away to explore certain avenues to try and move the whole project forward.

"We are looking for a fifth region within the valleys area but we understand the constraints the union are under at the moment with the participation agreement with the four other regions.

"They are all struggling for cash.

"We need to put some infrastructure into the valleys - as Conwy Council have done in North Wales - get involvement within the community, and then increase the participation of rugby within the Valleys at all levels, to, hopefully, get an elite team there."

Early plans outlined by VR when they launched in April 2012 involved playing matches at various club venues around the country, including some in north Wales.

But they are now examining the potential of locating the team at one primary home - either through re-developing an existing stadium such as Pontypridd's Sardis Road, or building a new multi-purpose community stadium with local authority assistance.
Former Wales dual-code wing Hadley added: "We need to look for a facility within the region, whether it be a current ground, or a brand new ground, and build from there.

"But it's still our aim to create a professional outfit within the valleys."

How can they be called a region, when they are not playing games around the region. Tut tut tut.

Looking at that press release it seems that the WRU have more or less said sod off and look at what RGC have done, and then try and replicate it in the valleys. So theoretically that would mean no region for another 5 years.

Stubborn bunch aren't they, those Valleys Rugby board. What help did RGC recieve from the WRU though?

"As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly"
Proverbs 26:11


No support, money or professional need for another region. We can barely sustain 4. Time to move on.....

I'm surprised that Roger Lewis didn't take the opportunity to remind us that the existing teams already represent all the regions of Wales. By 'applauding the ambition' of RGC and Valleys rugby and suggesting that the MP bloke is well placed to 'unlock new monies for rugby in all of Wales' - he's admitting that there are areas of the principality that are unrepresented.

Maybe it's a plan to re-brand the existing sides as 'Pro Teams' or some such and quietly drop the 'region' terminology. Encourage the media and the 'disenfranchised' minority to shut up at least, if not get their 'buy-in'.

B-but - rugby heartland - disenfranchised - House of Pain - this is all the Blues' fault!

Casartelli wrote:I'm surprised that Roger Lewis didn't take the opportunity to remind us that the existing teams already represent all the regions of Wales. By 'applauding the ambition' of RGC and Valleys rugby and suggesting that the MP bloke is well placed to 'unlock new monies for rugby in all of Wales' - he's admitting that there are areas of the principality that are unrepresented.

Maybe it's a plan to re-brand the existing sides as 'Pro Teams' or some such and quietly drop the 'region' terminology. Encourage the media and the 'disenfranchised' minority to shut up at least, if not get their 'buy-in'.

If you can read all that from the WRU statement then can you please send me some of the drugs your on please? God knows I could use the buzz...

You have to read between the lines of the corporate-speak Smirnoff.

To paraphrase Roger, 'watch this space' - this time next year it'll all be about 'our four Pro Teams' and the 'Pro Team structure' and 'Pro team-ism.'

There'll be no mention of the 'R' word. Roger loves a re-brand.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: How can they be called a region, when they are not playing games around the region. Tut tut tut.

Looking at that press release it seems that the WRU have more or less said sod off and look at what RGC have done, and then try and replicate it in the valleys. So theoretically that would mean no region for another 5 years.

It would mean no region for a lot longer than that as, despite the Valleys Rugby's postering, they are a lot further behind than RGC 1404, and even RGC1404 are not planning on planning on canvassing the Rabo stakeholders for full regional status for at least 5 years (depending on how they grow and other factors), so it's unlikely that VR will catch them up in that time, and even unlikelier that the WRU/rest of the Rabo will accept two new Welsh regions formed within 2 years of each other - I'd say more than likely a VR region won't be formed (mostly because of their pie in the sky business plan) but if it is formed, it won't be for another 8 years.

Casartelli wrote:You have to read between the lines of the corporate-speak Smirnoff.

To paraphrase Roger, 'watch this space' - this time next year it'll all be about 'our four Pro Teams' and the 'Pro Team structure' and 'Pro team-ism.'

There'll be no mention of the 'R' word. Roger loves a re-brand.

That's not paraphrasing that's just plain making your own statement and sticking Rogers name in front of it.

I read between the lines of Roger's statement - that the WRU are more than happy with the 4 existing regions, and do not want/won't invest in a 5th region in the near future, but in the longer term they are happy with the way RGC1404 is growing and will support them becoming a region when they are ready.
In the meantime they are happy for Valleys Rugby to invest money in developing Welsh youngsters as long as they create a pipeline to one of the existing regions, as this will have the positive of extending the pool of Welsh talent, and will improve one (or more) of the existing regions, which the WRU are happy with, and happy with the way they are growing. (as can be seen by the Scarlets fans on here who live/come from Pembrokeshire and Cardiganshire, the Dragons fans from Ebbw and Risca, and the Ospreys fans from Maesteg and Bridgend).

Now Roger has green-lighted more 'draft businessplans' from the Valleys crew, he's going to want that project leveraged and good to go at the end of the current 5 year plan cycle, which has just started.

He'll want to differentiate the brandings, so for 2017-18, we'll have

4 Pro Teams
2 Pro development teams (RGC and VR)
The semi-pro teams in the premiership.
(plus Spidey's north Pembs XV on the back-burner)

Mark my words Smirnoff, you heard it from Casartelli first.

Has he 'green-lighted' a Valleys Rugby draft business plan?

I thought he'd told them to go away and 'source alternative revenue' and 'study the RGC model'

Another thing that occurs to me is that RGC have been started small (at a Division 2 level- sort of) then grown into a Division 1 level, so they can compete with other Division 1 clubs in the Division 1 East league, from which they aim to strengthen so they can enter the Welsh Prem before entering the Rabo at some point. That is fine as there are no rugby clubs at Division 1 or Welsh Prem level in North Wales

However if Valleys Rugby want to follow this model, they'll be entering Division 1 East where they'll be competing against teams such as Merthyr and Mountain Ash which are supposed to be under the Valleys Rugby umbrella. And things get worse if Valleys Rugby get promoted to the Welsh Championship and Premiership, where they'll be competing against the very teams who are supposed to be buying into Valleys rugby and paying for the priviliedge of having Valleys Rugby play at their ground - namely Bridgend, Neath, Cross Keys and Pontypridd (who will MP Owen and the Ponty fans support when Ponty play VR at Sardis Road, and who will be home).

Could be a bit awkward, particularly when everyone knows Valleys Rugby will be aiming to get above these clubs and make these clubs their feeder clubs if they get into the Rabo12, but will be competing against them and charging these clubs for the priviledge of having VR playing at their grounds.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Another thing that occurs to me is that RGC have been started small (at a Division 2 level- sort of) then grown into a Division 1 level, so they can compete with other Division 1 clubs in the Division 1 East league, from which they aim to strengthen so they can enter the Welsh Prem before entering the Rabo at some point. That is fine as there are no rugby clubs at Division 1 or Welsh Prem level in North Wales

However if Valleys Rugby want to follow this model, they'll be entering Division 1 East where they'll be competing against teams such as Merthyr and Mountain Ash which are supposed to be under the Valleys Rugby umbrella. And things get worse if Valleys Rugby get promoted to the Welsh Championship and Premiership, where they'll be competing against the very teams who are supposed to be buying into Valleys rugby and paying for the priviliedge of having Valleys Rugby play at their ground - namely Bridgend, Neath, Cross Keys and Pontypridd (who will MP Owen and the Ponty fans support when Ponty play VR at Sardis Road, and who will be home).

Could be a bit awkward, particularly when everyone knows Valleys Rugby will be aiming to get above these clubs and make these clubs their feeder clubs if they get into the Rabo12, but will be competing against them and charging these clubs for the priviledge of having VR playing at their grounds.

An excellent point Smirnoff. A point already made on this thread (3.24pm yesterday, ahem) of course, but such a good one that it was well worth raising again.

In a way, I'm delighted with this. Most sensible people knew this was only ever going to be out of Sardis Road and now it's obviously the case. How many donations will they need off their cloud cuckoo land believers, to help fund a new stadium otherwise?

If a person from Ebbw/Pontypool (or wherever else Pontypridd rugby allegedly targetted) got behind this region (in the unlikely event it really took off), they'd be the biggest bunch of hypocrites ever and would really be deserving of Rattue's village idiot term.

Where's Jimmy Moz, when you need answers?

Casartelli wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Another thing that occurs to me is that RGC have been started small (at a Division 2 level- sort of) then grown into a Division 1 level, so they can compete with other Division 1 clubs in the Division 1 East league, from which they aim to strengthen so they can enter the Welsh Prem before entering the Rabo at some point. That is fine as there are no rugby clubs at Division 1 or Welsh Prem level in North Wales

However if Valleys Rugby want to follow this model, they'll be entering Division 1 East where they'll be competing against teams such as Merthyr and Mountain Ash which are supposed to be under the Valleys Rugby umbrella. And things get worse if Valleys Rugby get promoted to the Welsh Championship and Premiership, where they'll be competing against the very teams who are supposed to be buying into Valleys rugby and paying for the priviliedge of having Valleys Rugby play at their ground - namely Bridgend, Neath, Cross Keys and Pontypridd (who will MP Owen and the Ponty fans support when Ponty play VR at Sardis Road, and who will be home).

Could be a bit awkward, particularly when everyone knows Valleys Rugby will be aiming to get above these clubs and make these clubs their feeder clubs if they get into the Rabo12, but will be competing against them and charging these clubs for the priviledge of having VR playing at their grounds.

An excellent point Smirnoff. A point already made on this thread (3.24pm yesterday, ahem) of course, but such a good one that it was well worth raising again.

Competing for fans is hardly the same as actually physically competing and playing against those clubs and playing in the same league as you said below.

But it's nice to see we agree

Casartelli wrote:Roger Lewis seems to have ruled out a combined RGC/Valleys initiative - he's said he wants Valleys rugby to take note of what they are doing in the north.

I'm surprised he didn't just slam the door on it. If RGC go well they are filling a natural void and a north Wales 'region' at some point in the future would be a positive thing. But what gap would Valleys fill, if they are a 'new' team? They'd be competing for fans with Ponty, Neath, Bridgend etc.

Maybe Roger is hoping it just quietly goes away.

Owen Smith: Thoughts on the joint statement

10.9.2012


The statement released on Friday by the WRU and Valleys Rugby has been met with mixed emotions and differing interpretations. I understand the mixed emotions. I feel them too. We went into the meeting to ask for the WRU’s support to try and found a fan-owned, pro-club for the Valleys, and we came out without having yet achieved that objective.

However, that is not to say that we have achieved nothing, that we have not moved forward towards our goal, or certainly that we should now fold the campaign tent and give up. So, to all of the people who have either wished for or anticipated the failure of our campaign I want to state a few facts this afternoon.

And to those who seem ready to give up in the face of this first obstacle, I want to say ‘keep the faith’ – apathy and defeatism are our most powerful enemies.

The first thing we have achieved is to catalyse a debate about the on-going scandal that the Valleys are not properly represented by the current set-up of professional Welsh rugby. Yes, this debate has rumbled on for years, but it has emerged with renewed intensity in the last 12 months, compelling the rugby establishment to acknowledge and reflect on it, and Valleys Rugby has played a part in that process.

Secondly, we have galvanised people to take action. Individual Valleys clubs and representative bodies within the Union have been spurred to re-engage in dialogue with the WRU about the future of the game in the Valleys. And individual people have taken hope from, or been fired up to disagree with the debate we sought to re-ignite.

Most tellingly, as we revealed for the first time on Friday, 8,500 individuals have been moved to pledged on the Valleys Rugby website to pay £100 each to own a part of the new entity, raising, if we collected the money, £850,000 – just £150,000 shy of the £1 million we said we might raise. We want to thank all those 8,500 people for helping us demonstrate to the WRU and the wider world the passion for our national game that burns in the Valleys – and showing people they were wrong when they said it couldn’t be done.

Thirdly, turning to the outcome of Friday’s meeting, we have secured the engagement of the WRU in a process that we intend to be a pathway back to what the WRU call the ‘elite’ level of the game for Valleys Rugby. The key phrases in the statement we agreed with the WRU are these:

The core agreement is based on a pledge by Valleys Rugby to seek out funding streams from within the UK and Europe which could unlock development plans to improve or create new elite facilities for rugby in the region.

and

The WRU supported Valleys Rugby's aim of working towards improved facilities and possibly linking with an existing team to develop future competitive involvement within some level of the elite game.

What do they mean? Well, they mean that the WRU will work in partnership with Valleys Rugby and with other stakeholders such as Local Authorities, Pontypridd RFC, other sports clubs and local education providers to build a case to access funds – public or private, British or European – to capitalise on the great passion for Rugby and for sport in general that we have in the Valleys and to develop facilities that might reflect our great sporting past but more importantly, might spark sport-based economic and social regeneration for the future.

They also mean that the WRU recognises the great strength of our rugby communities in the Valleys and accepts the need to provide them with fresh support and impetus. Practically, this may imply, as has been the case in North Wales, the creation of a stadium for the Valleys capable of hosting elite rugby and other sports. Such a facility, however, would have to be rooted in the community, perhaps owned it in the manner already described by Valleys Rugby, and would certainly need to serve and not replace or overshadow existing clubs and facilities that deliver for our communities.

My vision is that we use sport – with rugby at its leading edge - as the vehicle to strengthen the health, wealth and wellbeing of our communities. We need now to build a new partnership and a pathway in the Valleys to shape that vision and, after Friday’s meeting, we can now do so in the knowledge that we will be doing so with the co-operation and support of the Welsh Rugby Union.

Though it would be nice to be able to be more definitive about where this pathway will lead us, it just isn’t possible at present, but in my opinion it is a significantly positive step for the Union to endorse our campaign to develop for the Valleys, in their words, future competitive involvement within some level of the elite game. The WRU are clear that they will not currently support the creation of a fifth region in the Valleys but Roger Lewis pointed in the meeting to the potential evolution of the European competitions and was clear that nothing "is linear or static in the development of Rugby."

At Valleys Rugby then, though we remain critical of Regional Rugby and will persist in calling for the WRU to review the system and its lack of focus on the Valleys heartlands of the game, we have always been clear that we need the Union’s support and goodwill if we are realistically to achieve anything. The Union have now held the door ajar and challenged us to work with them and other stakeholders to develop a vision and a pathway that will build on the strengths of Valleys Rugby – on great rugby and community institutions like Pontypridd RFC – and help create the facilities and finances that will enable engagement in a higher, 'elite' level of rugby. That’s a challenge I intend to grab with both hands. In his statement Roger Lewis says Valleys Rugby may make people watch this space. You’d better believe it Roger, eight and a half thousand people can’t be wrong!

Owen Smith MP

The bold paragraph, well I'll question how many of them "8500" people would rightly be put off by the massive shift of the goalposts, now they're clearly leaning towards playing in one venue?

The last paragraph is hypocrisy at its best. So they remain critical of the regions, yet now wish to do exactly the same. Just as bad as the ones down the road (in Blue), that they supposedly despise. Genius. I'd alter his last sentence to "You’d better believe it Roger, eight and a half thousand people can’t be right in the head."

I like these two paragraphs

The first thing we have achieved is to catalyse a debate about the on-going scandal that the Valleys are not properly represented by the current set-up of professional Welsh rugby. Yes, this debate has rumbled on for years, but it has emerged with renewed intensity in the last 12 months, compelling the rugby establishment to acknowledge and reflect on it, and Valleys Rugby has played a part in that process.

I thought the Valleys Rugby was meant to represent all the disenfranchised fans in Wales, from Pembrokeshire to Gwent, from Bridgend to Deeside and Bangor, but now he's just acknowledging that it's just about representing the valleys (or should that be Valley ie the one with Pontypridd in it).

And

Secondly, we have galvanised people to take action. Individual Valleys clubs and representative bodies within the Union have been spurred to re-engage in dialogue with the WRU about the future of the game in the Valleys. And individual people have taken hope from, or been fired up to disagree with the debate we sought to re-ignite.

I apologies, but I haven't heard of any clubs, except Pontypridd, come out and support VR, especially not Cross Keys or Bridgend, who were supposed to be paying VR for the honour of having VR play at their grounds, and also paying to be members of VR.

Personally I think the Valleys idea is going about this the wrong way. Wouldnt it be better to have Pontypridd, Aberdare, Caerphilly and Merthyr Tydfils RFC's all on board to work on this together?
All the towns have populations larger than 30,000 people and all already have age group rugby from under 7's and upwards.

The thing that strikes me most of all is out of all these mouth pieces that Valleys rugby has, how many of them are rugby people who have experience of running rugby clubs?

Owen Smith: The first thing we have achieved is to catalyse a debate about the on-going scandal that the Valleys are not properly represented by the current set-up of professional Welsh rugby. Yes, this debate has rumbled on for years, but it has emerged with renewed intensity in the last 12 months, compelling the rugby establishment to acknowledge and reflect on it, and Valleys Rugby has played a part in that process.

Er, excuse me, but:

http://www.cardiffblues.com/community/regional_clubs_clubs_in_the_blues_region.php

The valleys are represented by regional rugby. What Owen Smith should be doing is pestering Roger Lewis to get the Blues to play the odd game at Sardis Road - except Pontypridd RFC is the notable absentee from the list of affiliated clubs in the Blues' region. Funny that.

Casartelli wrote:Now Roger has green-lighted more 'draft businessplans' from the Valleys crew, he's going to want that project leveraged and good to go at the end of the current 5 year plan cycle, which has just started.

He'll want to differentiate the brandings, so for 2017-18, we'll have

4 Pro Teams
2 Pro development teams (RGC and VR)
The semi-pro teams in the premiership.
(plus Spidey's north Pembs XV on the back-burner)

Mark my words Smirnoff, you heard it from Casartelli first.

Scarew the north of pembs their all in bred

I honestly don't see the point of this Valleys Rugby.

The buiness plan is for pretty much a development team, will fans turn out in the second year to watch them get beat by pretty much everyones 'A' sides?

Why would the Scots, Italians and Irish vote them into the league? I'm sure they would rather see a 3rd Italian side ( and open up a pontentally far bigger market) or 3rd Scottish team, rather than a 5th/6th Welsh team. The other Unions may not even want to expand the League.

For this reason I can see RGC1404, although well planned and developed, with existing supporter base, (ready to be expanded when enter pro 12) acamady and infurstructure all in place and running, really struggle to get entry to the Pro 12.

To be honest I see that the WRU will not be allowed more than 4 teams, and to enter RGC1404, there will be restructure of the Valleys/Cardiff/Newport areas, to have only one team, maybe even the Ospreys will lose feeder clubs, not sure, but think the WRU are happy for VR to start building structures to facilate something along the pipeline.

I think by the WRU telling them to copy RGC1404 they know that VR will fall apart.

As has been stated there is no way that Ponty and others will support a region grow from Div 2 and definately not from the Prem as Ponty may not be the best team in the league if VR was run right.

Kingshu even if RGC1404 get no futhur then the Prem that is still a big improvement from where it was. Also having them play in the B&I cup has to be a good thing to see where they would be at.

RCG would accually bring alot to the rabo table as it has a sizable popualtion, untapped market and is easy to get to. The same can't be said for VR

I think the WRU have been smart as by saying any team that wants to become a region has to start small and grow to a size they are happy with.

They should just tell Ponty they will demote them for two years and if they can show they are a region they will let them back up to the prem.
If they can win the Prem and B&I cup for two years in a row they'll talk about a region. See how Ponty RFC would handle it

Brendan wrote:They should just tell Ponty they will demote them for two years and if they can show they are a region they will let them back up to the prem.
If they can win the Prem and B&I cup for two years in a row they'll talk about a region. See how Ponty RFC would handle it

Can you imagine?

I think the WRU should pay me 1.5 million as I feel disenfranchised as there is no Welsh region to represent me in Bristol.

I wonder if the disenfranchised Clubs in the prem relize the only way they are getting money for a region is if they take it from the Prem.

Also any region going forward has to be run by the WRU like the IRFU

The reason RGC 1404 are starting lower down are fairly obvious. In July 2010 they opened their Academy and accepted the 11 most promising local players into their system.

Shaun Strudwick (Hooker),
Tom Parry (Back Row),
James Grundy (Back Row),
Lewis Barker Outside Half),
Afon Bagshaw (Scrum Half),
Mike Jones (Center),
Meiler Parry (Back Row),
Rhodri Evans (Tight Head),
Aaron Gwyn (Back Row),
Joe Simpson (Loosehead Prop),
Dion Jones (Full Back),

All of these lads were aged 16 in 2010 apart from Shaun Strudwick who was 19. 2 Years later their all coming to the end of their A levels and are now 18. It would be folly to have these lads playing Premiership rugby at the age of 18, alongside the other North Wales players who are basically the better players from amongst the Division 1 north clubs.

Out of the 11 Shaun Strudwick seems to have disappeared off the radar, though as said earlier he was 3 years older than the other guys selected for the Academy.
While Dion Jones and Rhodri Evans have recently broken through to the Wales U18 team. Though Dion Jones has since transferred to the Scarlets.

It's a lot to ask these 18 year olds to simply walk into the Premiership or regional rugby they need to cut their teeth lower down first.

Brendan wrote:

RCG would accually bring alot to the rabo table as it has a sizable popualtion, untapped market and is easy to get to. The same can't be said for VR

Definitely an untapped market and resource, but is not easy to get to unless you live in the North of England or the Irish coast. The infastructure between North and South Wales hasn't really been developed so there's like one road in between. If the infrastructure is invested into then it would be very good news for North Wales rugby.

Morgannwg wrote:

Brendan wrote:

RCG would accually bring alot to the rabo table as it has a sizable popualtion, untapped market and is easy to get to. The same can't be said for VR

Definitely an untapped market and resource, but is not easy to get to unless you live in the North of England or the Irish coast. The infastructure between North and South Wales hasn't really been developed so there's like one road in between. If the infrastructure is invested into then it would be very good news for North Wales rugby.

Good job that the majority of teams in the Rabo are not from the south of wales then. RGC would be easier for the Italians and Scots, and some Irish sides to get to than PYS or the Liberty. (Hollyhead for ferries, Lohn Lennon Airport to fly to being nearer than Cardiff).

Is distance really that bad though ,imagine how far New Zealand have to travel for their provincial games and were moaning about 3-4 hours down the road. Granted there is no straight road and the routes there are do criss cross between towns a lot but surely these A roads are 2 lane and the lack of population in those areas should mean their not overly congested.

Shifty wrote:Is distance really that bad though ,imagine how far New Zealand have to travel for their provincial games and were moaning about 3-4 hours down the road. Granted there is no straight road and the routes there are do criss cross between towns a lot but surely these A roads are 2 lane and the lack of population in those areas should mean their not overly congested.

There's a lot more population than there is in New Zealand per square mile and these roads are often pretty busy (or are so slow you end up going into England and then coming back in at Wrexham) and while you can fly into John Lennon airport, which is much bigger/better than Cardiff, the M4 is a much better road from Cardiff airport to PYS/Liberty Stadium, than the A55 is from the M53 to Colwyn Bay.

Have there been any press releases from Valleys Rugby recently?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Have there been any press releases from Valleys Rugby recently?

No,
however....;

"Pontypridd MP Owen Smith receives the Players, Directors, Staff and Sponsors of Pontypridd RFC.
Chris Dicomidis, Adam Thomas, Ed Siggery, the directors, staff, sponsors, supporters and associates of Pontypridd RFC were received by Pontypridd MP, and Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Smith at the Portcullis House, Westminster. Welsh MPs gathered to pay their respects to the team, before Owen Smith invited the assembled guests on a tour of the Houses of Parliament."

https://www.facebook.com/PontypriddRFC

Fair play to Ponty, they're clearly better than the rest of the Premiership sides and they made Llanelli look a bit silly the other day. Credit where it's due.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fair play to Ponty, they're clearly better than the rest of the Premiership sides and they made Llanelli look a bit silly the other day. Credit where it's due.

Ponty are a breath of fresh air in the regional fog. They stick it to the man and it's great.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fair play to Ponty, they're clearly better than the rest of the Premiership sides and they made Llanelli look a bit silly the other day. Credit where it's due.

Ponty are a breath of fresh air in the regional fog. They stick it to the man and it's great.

Didn't Neath do exactly the same thing, before they got told they needed to behave or they would not get the A-Licence thingy that is needed to be in the prem? Surely if Ponty are so anti-regional then they are at risk of having their A-Licence pulled.

What kind of crowds can Ponty attract?

In BandI cup they seened to average 2800
Welsh prem final had Attendance: 2000

The question is would it increase if in the Pro 12?

Because currently Connacht have progressed to attract an average of 4000 per game.