Pro 12, is there room for new teams??

With all the recent talk of a Valleys rugby team or RGC1404 being promoted to the PRO12 my question is this. Is there room for any other teams? Would any other Union ever agree to addition teams being added?

To be fair it's not just in Wales that there is talk of extra teams joining, Scotland see Cali Reds or Boarders being revived as a private enterprise, and Italy see Praetorians Roma.

Some people think that the future of the Pro 12 is a 2 tiered league, with promotion and relagation. However as much as people would like to see this I believe that it's a non starter, would any of the unions agree and risk thier teams being in the bottom division? Would the Italian Union risk both teams being in div 2. For this reason I don't believe an expansion to a two tiered league is ever going to be possible. As the Unions control the League.

Would the unions agree to an expansion to a pro 13/14, to do so would add an extra 2-4 games for each team to play and add an extra 3-4 weeks to the competation, I don't believe the Unions or the current teams would be very willing to have these extra games, plus since they would prob be fitted in durning international windows, I don't believe any sponsors would be keen on this as it would just create extra games when no international players are on show.
To add the two Italian teams the FIR had to pay compension for extra travel and bigger squads required to the other Unions, I guess then any other Union wishing to add a team would have to pay similar compension to the other Unions. Could any Union currently afford not only to create a new team with the usual running costs but also this compension to the other unions?

Is it possible that for a Union to enter a new team that it would have to merge/fold another team, as each Union has now reached equiblium, Ireland 4, Wales 4, Scotland 2 and Italy 2?

Conference System, like the Super XV, while I'm not a fan of Conference systems, I could see the Unions agreeing to this as it would allow additional teams in the league more Derbies, and wouldn't add extra games.
Would the unions agree to this and what model would they agree to? Could it be balanced? Would it be based per Union? Would each teams points from the year before assign which conference they enter?

So do you think extra teams can realistically be added to the Pro 12, and how do you see this being done? (important point, not how you would like it to be done, but how you think the Unions that run the league would agree to do it).

There's not a lot of empty slots left in the rugby calendar and adding 2-4 more games on top of what we already have seems a bad idea. Something will have to give, i'e the structure of the current pro 12 (as you mentioned) or dropping the LV cup competition. I'm not sure the other unions would be too happy if we changed the format of the Pro 12 again just when it seemed to be starting to work.

Shouldn't be a problem, the super xv went from 6 to 10 to 12 to 14 to 15 and are supposedly only going to get bigger without regard to any calendar restrictions.

I have to add that while I think there should maybe be space created to include Praetorians Roma, (the potentional market being so big).

I would hate a conference system imagine if it was Union based Scotland Italy joined.

Glasgow could easliy top theirs with about 25 points, while Leinster would do well to get 20, meaning Glasgow would have home advantage in playoffs, tougher conferences makes it harder on teams to progress.

maybe if they put everyone in a final table based on points each year, like the current league table and assigned the groups from it,

ie current table
Leinster 1
Ospreys 2
Munster 3
Glasgow 4
Ulster 4
Scarlets 3
blues 2
Dragons 1
Treviso 4
connacht 3
Edinburgh 2
Arioni 1

All 1's and 4's Arioni, Dragons, Leinster , Treviso, Ulster, Glasgow
All 2's and 3's Edinburgh, blues, Ospreys, connacht Scarlets Munster

each year redivide it, based on final points from year before, could go up to 16 teams top 4 in each play off against each other.

Actually for a conference Idea I kinda like this one.

As the matches over Xmas/New Year showed - fans will come out in their droves to watch local derbies. It would be a shame to lose these.

There is probably a more compelling argument to adding additional teams from Scotland and Italy as they only have 2 than from Wales.

If memory serves me right the long term plan was that the Italians would eventually leave the Pro 12 and join the French league.

Cymroglan wrote:If memory serves me right the long term plan was that the Italians would eventually leave the Pro 12 and join the French league.

Have you got a link for this?

That might have been their hopes, cant see the Frenchies going along with that though.

If they ever do leave their best best will be a European League with Romaina, Russia, maybe Germany. But i dont see them leaving, its done wonders for them to be honest.

I'd like to see another two teams enter, one welsh (biased) and another Scottish or Italian club/franchise. 14 teams will make it an equal number of games throughout the season but will likely require us to scrap the LV cup, which is fine in anyone's view.

Not that I am against the Italians in the league... I don't think they should be in the league.

Realistically what do they bring? Treviso are OK but they'll probably never win the European cup and it will be a long time before they get close to play-offs. While Aironi are dirt poor. Teams like Connaught and the Dragons are not great but they are no walk overs and play good rugby. Aironi are just awful.

I was against them joining the league from the get go for a few reasons. The first being the 'Rabo' undermines the European Cup. Ulster have played Aironi 8 times in the last two seasons! And to keep up with snoozeball we can have European league, we need domestic leagues, like the good old Celtic League, when my team didn't have to travel extra 300 miles to get a bonus point.

My point being is that there is more room for Welsh and Scottish sides but at the expense of the Italians. I think they offer little in terms of a spectacle and income/money so just get rid of them. Or we'll have to put with 2nd string sides hammering Aironi for years to come.

Right now, I think if more teams enter we have to change the format. Too many games already.

Now Jay, if you're an Ulster fan you'll know we've never got the BP away from home against Aironi in the Pro12. Of our five bonus point wins against them, only one has been in the league and it was on Friday at Ravenhill. In fact, Ulster are yet to get any kind of BP win in Italy in a Pro 12 game ;-)

I've enjoyed what Treviso bring to the league a lot to be honest. They offer something totally different to most other teams and that variety is great. I like that we can be playing the Scarlets or Edinburgh one week and we have to guard against high-tempo expansive rugby and then the next week it's a war of attrition against Treviso and we have to dig deep in the forwards to win. It makes the league so much better.

Aironi right now are passengers but are definitely improving. I say the Italians are worth their place.

Agree with Notch, the Italians should stay. Treviso hammered the Dragons by 50 points in Italy. They should scrap the Dragons (my region) before them, surely?!

My personal thoughts are that I would have no problem with Wales having more sides, Valleys, North Wales or whatever, Scotland having Borders and/or caledonian side, and Italy having a Rome and/or another side.

However if there were any more sides then I think it should go to ahome or away league not home and away.

If it was eventually say a 16 team league then have a home/away league with 15 games each but maybe have a bigger play off with the top 8 qualifying for a quarter finals.

Maybe if there were less games like this we would see the big names playing more often and hence have a better product

I like the Italiansin the League however I believe that Italy could well support 4 regional teams, it my opionion that they will never be entered in the French system.

I believe that eventually the Italians will Leave the Celtic League and Form a Italian-German League with maybe a couple of Romanian teams, total about 8-10 teams in it.

When this happens that would be the time when Scotland and Wales get to enter an Extra team each, however this is about 10 years away, so RGC1404/Valleys/private Scottish team would have a long wait.

King,

I could never ever ever ever see that happening. The Italians to decide not to play with Leinster, Ospreys, Edinburgh, Munster, Scarlets etc and instead play Heidelburg or Bucharest Oaks?

Not a chance.

What I can see happening is a conference style system similar to the Super 15. It is less money spent in travel costs. More money earned in local derbies. Allows for more teams to compete in the league. Still allows for HEC qualification based on countries. Still allows for playoffs and playing teams from other nations.

no room for Italian teams in the top14 : french clubs wont allow that; in fact there is some clubs pushing to increase the number of teams to 16 (and scrap the AC) to increase the exposure to general public (and mainly to get an extra 2 home games)... if it were to happen it could be the beginning of the end of french rugby at european level and possibly international as well.

The argument about Pro12 is often that it is child's-play rugby pretending it is the man's version, that it lacks bite in the middle ranks and lower ranks due to no relegation, that it is training field nonsense for the serious European sides, that is the AP's and Top14's poor relative.

More teams? No - just let's try and crank up the alleged lack of intensity first with the sides that ARE in it, and then perhaps there'll be room for letting in a few more. Consolidate a strengthening brand first before stretching it.

Wales cant afford 4 regions never mind 5. Ireland just getting Connacht on board and improving. Scotland the same with their 2.

The PRO12 does not need even more badly funded & supported clubs, provinces and regions. It needs stabilising and growth from within. That is happening. Albeit slowly. Let's not feic that up now.

I would see the sense in another Italian club however. Demographically speaking, it is far more feasible than for the other 3 countries in it.

SNAP Fly. Hadn't read your post.

Oh, I do ever so 'ate me ideas bein' stolen by bad men! Especially, when I might have stolen some of theirs along the way

We just think alike too much, Gibbo. But to hell with it, I like it - as my Grandfather used to say when my Grandmother often reprimanded him for talking to himself: "I like talking to myself because I like talking to a decent man; and I like to hear what a decent man has to say"

Im really happy with the PRO12. It is accelerating at all levels. I've been bigging up the ML/PRO12/Celtic League for years now. I feel good. I feel fine the way its been going. 5 teams with a chance of 2nd at this late stage. Never mind the playoffs. Its been an unmitigated success. I get very protective of it. It has taken far too much sledging in the past and it is kicking orse now.

Believe.

I think Wales having a 5th team is pure fantasy. The four they have are in danger of falling permanently behind the Irish. And looking at the financial situation I think it's far more likely there'll be 3 in the future than 5. Maybe the Welsh really just like international rugby and will never support the domestic game the way the Irish do. If that's the case then the regions will never get anywhere.

I'd like to see Italy and Scotland enter an extra team each eventually. I don't think it's financially feasible in Scotland. Italy should work towards making both Treviso and Aironi competitive before they consider a 3rd.

There's no prospect of a 5th Irish team. Ever. Again, I think it's more likely that the IRFU would kill off Connacht than field a 5th side.

I think we have 12 for the foreseeable future. The biggest problem facing the league now is the deterioration of the Welsh sides and the prospect of the Irish permanently dominating. Which isn't good for anybody. We all need strong opponents.

The Scots and Italians are improving slowly for the most part. Ireland need to fully fund Connacht.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think Wales having a 5th team is pure fantasy. The four they have are in danger of falling permanently behind the Irish. And looking at the financial situation I think it's far more likely there'll be 3 in the future than 5. Maybe the Welsh really just like international rugby and will never support the domestic game the way the Irish do. If that's the case then the regions will never get anywhere.

I'd like to see Italy and Scotland enter an extra team each eventually. I don't think it's financially feasible in Scotland. Italy should work towards making both Treviso and Aironi competitive before they consider a 3rd.

There's no prospect of a 5th Irish team. Ever. Again, I think it's more likely that the IRFU would kill off Connacht than field a 5th side.

I think we have 12 for the foreseeable future. The biggest problem facing the league now is the deterioration of the Welsh sides and the prospect of the Irish permanently dominating. Which isn't good for anybody. We all need strong opponents.

The Scots and Italians are improving slowly for the most part. Ireland need to fully fund Connacht.

Feckless, Im not the biggest fan of the IRFU you understand, But. They have given them support for 3 years. It is showing in the level of players now going to them.

7,000 for the Munster game. Better than all the Welsh regions, the Scottish & Italian clubs. Connacht are on a slow roll.

I agree on the Irish domination of both the PRO12 and HC. Its not healthy. And it is causing major resentment from the English and French Super-clubs.. So, what we really need, are more Welsh, Italian and Scottish teams stepping up to the HC plate. And to totally pish them off.

Maybe we could let the Welsh win a HC next year and they could let us win a Slam? I'd be up for a compromise like that

That said........... *gulp*.... the Welsh might be impatient and want to win the HC this year................ and start that process at the weekend!

Forget about the compromise. I don't want tempting fate.

Plenty of ways to add new teams.

Logically speaking given Italy have a massive population there could well see them push for 4 teams.

Now for me the magic number would be around 21 teams. Why you ask? Simple play only 1 match against each team within it. The Home and Away legs would then alternate each season. So Ospreys for example would play Leinster home one season and away another. Ok you lose 2 games off the calender but you could always increase the size of the play off pool.

The only issue is I dont see Scotland, Wales & Ireland ever being able to support more provinces/regions/clubs. So with Italy going to 4 (and thats a while off due to the financial constraints) that would make 14.

The other 6/7 would need to come from elsewhere. Ideally France and England but they would never join. So long term they should role it out to sides that closest to developing. Spain and Romania are logistically ok in terms of travel but they probably couldnt enter more than 2 sides each. Where the remaining 3/4 come from gets tricky as Russia & Georgia may be logistically impossible and they are probably they next realistic expansion possibitlies.

Italy have provision to up their numbers to 4 teams - it was part of the agreement when they joined. I also think Wales have provision for a5th team and Scotland for a 3rd team.

How would it work - Simple:

Play each other once - 15 games - top 4 into a playoff
Play teams in your own country a second time - reversing the league fixture.
Those games give you a Country based trophy.
16 teams for a knock out cup.

That means the maximum - minimum number of games is as follows:

Wales 25 - 20
Ireland & Italy 24 - 19
Scotland 23 - 18

Currently the figures are 24 - 22

So only Welsh teams could have more games to play and that is only 1 and this could easily accomodated by droping the LV Cup

Let's wait until the existing Welsh regions can fill their stadia before we even consider bringing in a fifth.

Fair enough but my point was that it will be easy to rearrange the competition to accomodate 4 more teams.

geoff998rugby wrote:Italy have provision to up their numbers to 4 teams - it was part of the agreement when they joined. I also think Wales have provision for a5th team and Scotland for a 3rd team.

How would it work - Simple:

Play each other once - 15 games - top 4 into a playoff
Play teams in your own country a second time - reversing the league fixture.
Those games give you a Country based trophy.
16 teams for a knock out cup.

That means the maximum - minimum number of games is as follows:

Wales 25 - 20
Ireland & Italy 24 - 19
Scotland 23 - 18

Currently the figures are 24 - 22

So only Welsh teams could have more games to play and that is only 1 and this could easily accomodated by droping the LV Cup

Geoff that is the best way to work it I've ever heard.

Beats the conference thing (which I never liked).

3 trophies to be won. Brillent. Pro 12, Inter-Provensional/regional and the Celtic Cup back again.

only bit is only play each other once in League but hey ho, it's never going to be perfect, but this is the closest it can get.

PS from now on I'm using this model, but crediting it as my own idea.

Yea thats a good shout Geoff.

The possible expansion of the Pro12 would possibly start with changing its name again!

If there are more teams to be added from existing country members - Italy, Scotland and Wales - would the creation of a lower division not make most sense for future development, and avoid adding games onto an already stretched season?

In this scenario, the Pro12 would reduce to 10 teams again - lets call it Pro10. I would cut Connacht and one of the Welsh teams from it (Welsh fans can pick). Or possibly kill off the Welsh region that is not up to scratch in terms of finances and fan-pulling power.

A new second division - let's call it the Pro 8 - would be created featuring Connacht, a new Welsh team or rather old Welsh club along with two other Welsh clubs with good fan heartlands (Welsh fans please suggest), a third team from Scotland - Borders/Rievers, Roma Praetorians, then possibly consider a second Leinster team or invite an England-based team or two - Cornish Pirates, London Welsh, etc.

The two leagues would be locked for 1 year to allow settling in, then open up relegation/promotion with two teams changing divisions each season.

European Cup and Challenge Cup qualification would go to Top 8 in Pro10 and Top 2 in Pro8 respectively. Reduce EC to 20 teams and expand Challenge Cup.

Pro 8 could be expanded over time to take in teams from other countries - Romania, Spain, another Italian team.

The bottom line is the season is 42 weeks long, so if you add in 9 weeks for the heinaken european cup, then you still have 33 weeks left, the current league is 22 weeks long with 2 more play off weekends. The Welsh teams use another 4 -6 weeks weeks for the Lv cup so we are using 39 weeks of the 42 already, with 2 weeks at the start for pre season friendlies.

Realistically we cannot add any more teams to the rabo direct. Unless we played mid week or the Welsh teams withdrew from the LV cup, in which case 2 more teams could be added.

Get real. Stop dreaming. There will be no more Welsh, Irish or Scottish teams at this level. The Scots & Welsh can barely support what they have now. It is only the Italians who have the realistic capacity to up their quota.

PotHale and AlynDavies I refer you to my previous post - there is no problem extending the league. 2 diviisions is a terrible idea - we might as well close half the teams down now.

Having said that Gibson is spot on - there will NEVER be a 5th Irish team and an extra Welsh or Scottish team is a long way off.

The next growth will come from the Italians with a 3rd team.

Gibson wrote:Get real. Stop dreaming. There will be no more Welsh, Irish or Scottish teams at this level. The Scots & Welsh can barely support what they have now. It is only the Italians who have the realistic capacity to up their quota.

Funny you should mention that when Aironi are losing their license by the looks.

Looks like there will be a new team next year, probably based in Rome. Replacements for Aironi who appear to have overstretched themselves financially.

They'll probably inherit the bulk of Aironis players but it's not exactly good news. Back to square one in terms of getting the second Italian side competitive.