Fluety returns to NZ

Sad news. It must be heartbreaking for him to leave his homeland. Will he still be available to play for England. Such a los of a true patriot.

I just never saw it coming. Will other Englishmen soon be forced into similar heatbreaking decisions

Link? Last I heard he was in talks with a Japanese club.

As far as the WUM goes, nicely worded but 0 points for originality.

That’s a shame.

He could have gone down in history as one of the truly great British & Irish Lions.

In his prime he had all the skills, but too many injuries cost him the chance to be a world class player.

All the best Riki, enjoy live in NZ.

KRD - isn't this miteyironpaw/greyghost returning after getting banned? He doesn't do a good job of hiding it. Not sure why he purposely posted the most blatant typo's, it kinda gives it away.

Morgannwg wrote:KRD - isn't this miteyironpaw/greyghost returning after getting banned? He doesn't do a good job of hiding it. Not sure why he purposely posted the most blatant typo's, it kinda gives it away.

What do you mean blatant typoos

Maybe he should get some advice from another former NH player Shane Howarth on adapting to life in NZ?

Good luck to him

Good player for Wasps & a genuinely nice bloke.

Had a chance for international rugby with England, took it & gave 100% when he played for us.

Can't see a problem with that.

HERSH wrote:Maybe he should get some advice from another former NH player Shane Howarth on adapting to life in NZ?

Shane was devastated by the news he had a Welsh grandfather (who got to know his Grandmother around the back of a barn after too much Steinlager) he didn't know he had and spends much of his time in libraries and lineage websites in an attempt to find out who he was. However as many young Welshgirls have discovered, trying to find a Welshman who has knocked you up and doesn't want to be found is next to impossible

Best of luck to him. Had his great moments in an England and Lions shirt, and can't ask more of him than that.

Hope he does well out there and enjoys the rest of his career.

Dragonbreath

Should never have been picked for lions.

Wait, miteyironpaw got banned? And that was greyghost?

I miss his ridiculous England 100 - 0 Scotland predictions.

Most WUMs annoy me but it's at least a wee bit funny.

I agree with OP - it is a traversty that this mercanary ever played for England let alone the Lions.

Comes to England to get qualified.
As soon as he is he goes off to France.
When he realizes he will not make the England team again he goes back home again.

He was never an Englishman inspite of putting on the England shirt.
The rules should be tighten re qualification to prevent this happening again

couldnt help but laugh when i read in the article that it stated the englishman is returning to his native New Zealand.

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree with OP - it is a traversty that this mercanary ever played for England let alone the Lions.

Comes to England to get qualified.
As soon as he is he goes off to France.
When he realizes he will not make the England team again he goes back home again.

He was never an Englishman inspite of putting on the England shirt.
The rules should be tighten re qualification to prevent this happening again

Says you. Another spin on it would be he was in self destructive mode in New Zealand. He left for England for a fresh start, which was provided for him and allowed him to turn his life around. He then represented the country he emmigrated to and that gave him that second chance. Now he's moving closer to his family so they can help out now he's expecting his 4th baby. I am more than happy allowing people like that representing my country.

If you're not then petition the IRFU to stop their project player initiative and ensure they only pick truly players Irish players (i.e. at least an Irish granny) like Boss.

Thunor, I agree with geoff. But, you also have plenty of valid points. Flutey gave his all for England/the Lions and was a quality player. I can admit it was rather odd to see a Maori representative line-up for us against SA but there is a first time for everything. Not sure why he moved to France for a year or two before coming back. Although who could blame him as Wasps began to sink.

Slightly flawed arguement as Boss does have an Irish granny and has now lived in Ireland for 7 years and counting.

No project players has ever played for Ireland.

We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

This is fact not opinion:

Comes to England to get qualified.
As soon as he is he goes off to France.
When he realizes he will not make the England team again he goes back home again.

As to whether the reason he is going back home is because he is no longer in contention for an England place is conjecture BUT the two do coincide.

geoff998rugby wrote: We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

So you couldn't come up with a single Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents - excpet Andy Ward, who didn't.

He's going back home to New Zealand for good reasons and I think people are being harsh. He's late in his career now and The New Zealander has been superseded by a strong South African and an up and coming Samoan. I think he's making the right move and wish him well

Equo Troiano wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

So you couldn't come up with a single Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents - excpet Andy Ward, who didn't.

I think you need to reread.

No individual was able to identify a residency qualified player since Andy Ward

dragonbreath wrote:Sad news. It must be heartbreaking for him to leave his homeland. Will he still be available to play for England. Such a los of a true patriot.

I just never saw it coming. Will other Englishmen soon be forced into similar heatbreaking decisions

Actually yes. Several.

Ben Morgan is playing in Wales as are George North and Cuthbert and possibly some others in Welsh sides down the years.
Cipriani is playing in Australia.
Haskell is playing in New Zealand and there are so many Englishmen playing in France that i cannot name them all.

See d*^$breath - you may not have encountered it but people move do countries. They live, work establish themselves in countries other than their birthplace. Sometimes they take up residence on a long term basis and may even get a passport.

Sometimes they might return for family reasons as Flutey has done. Fair enough and thank goodness for it too breath we wouldnt want to become insular and inbred now would we?

RubyGuby wrote:He's going back home to New Zealand for good reasons and I think people are being harsh. He's late in his career now and The New Zealander has been superseded by a strong South African and an up and coming Samoan. I think he's making the right move and wish him well

The point is he is going home and that is not and never has been England.
However he pulled on the England shirt - that makes him a mercanary in my book.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like my internationals playing for the country they consider home

geoff998rugby wrote:Slightly flawed arguement as Boss does have an Irish granny and has now lived in Ireland for 7 years and counting.

No project players has ever played for Ireland.

We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

This is fact not opinion:

Comes to England to get qualified.
As soon as he is he goes off to France.
When he realizes he will not make the England team again he goes back home again.

As to whether the reason he is going back home is because he is no longer in contention for an England place is conjecture BUT the two do coincide.

Youd be right if he actually did come to England to get qualified which he didnt, and if he actually even required residency to qualify which he didnt.
the decision to move to France was clearly an economic one and had nothing to do with him waiting to be qualified then running off, he had never expected to be called up nor had a particular ambition to play for England until he was offered the chance.
Once he was picked for England he hung around and made himself available, took a wage cut to move back so he'd be in contention for the world cup. Now hes rejected by England we're having a go at him for returning home and seeking a pension in Japan?

geoff, the only fact there is that after gaining qualification he moved to France. He came AND got qualified (to say he came TO get qualified is opinion) and even then he thinks him might actually have an English grandfather (he's not sure who his grandfather is), but would this make any difference to his 'Englishness'? Of course not.

I don't really understand your Boss point regarding tha fact he's been here for 7 years. He was here 1 year before being capped by Ireland. It was purely because he had an Irish granny. Hape has been in England for 9 years now, I doubt that will change some people opinions on him playing ofr England.

The point about Project players is not that it's failed. It's the fact the IRFU has system that actively encourages possibly residency players to come to Ireland to gain residency qualification. If Flutey had come on something like that I could understand the bad feelings. However Flutey came here for personal and economical reasons (the most common reasons for anyone to emmigrate) and was treated as a 'foreign' player until the day he gained qualification. And from then on he was treated exactly the same as any qualified player.

Equo Troiano wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

So you couldn't come up with a single Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents - excpet Andy Ward, who didn't.

Well isn't that exactly what he just said?

Oh and regarding qualification I would scrap it all except residency. Have 5 years consecutive immediately before being capped. Also if you have a longer period continuous residency (e.g. 10 or 15 years consecutive) your qualification is fixed for that country (so someone born and rasied in England but lived in Wales for 5 years would qualify for both, but someone born in England but born and raised in Wales would only qualify for Wales). The only reason I wouldn't completely push this is that the PI would be crippled to to number of people playing for them that moved to NZ/Australia at a young age or were born there with Islander parents.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

So you couldn't come up with a single Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents - excpet Andy Ward, who didn't.

I think you need to reread.

No individual was able to identify a residency qualified player since Andy Ward

So, Andy Ward came over in 2000 and is therefore now a 'true migrant'.

Whereas Flutey, who came over (in very much the same way I would imagine) is a mercenary.

So somehow, the two are different. In your mind. I hadn't realised that the difference between migrants and mercenaries (mercenaries? A military term out of context with this discussion) was time banded or caveated. I doubt many other rational people had either.

This argument has been done to death

geoff998rugby wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:He's going back home to New Zealand for good reasons and I think people are being harsh. He's late in his career now and The New Zealander has been superseded by a strong South African and an up and coming Samoan. I think he's making the right move and wish him well

The point is he is going home and that is not and never has been England.
However he pulled on the England shirt - that makes him a mercanary in my book.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like my internationals playing for the country they consider home

I have to agree here and it is a tricky issue....
However, if we apply the theory that "all internationals only play for the country they call home", I doubt whether England would have won the World Cup in 03. Mike Catt saved our bacon against Wales if you remember rightly...

A few thoughts:

Flutey had about 18 month or so when he was a very decent player for England, and no-one would question his commitment to the team while he played.

His move to England initially was only to play club rugby at Wasps, and it appears from his back-story that there were good reasons to leave NZ and look for a fresh start at that time.

He fulfilled the residency qualifications prior to being selected by England, although it appears that he might actually have been eligible through a grrandparent (seems to be unclear on this).

On the negative side -
It 'feels' a bit wrong having someone who was an established professional player and who had played high level representative games in his native country subsequently being picked by England. Technically within the rules, but there is a feeling that the word 'mercenary' could be justified.

I've little problem with him going to France to attempt to earn better money, while still being theoretically available as an England player - as far as his club career is concerned, I think he's welcome to look for the best salary.

His going home to NZ is just a bit more proof of where he considers his real home - as an aside, I believe that both Hape and Vainikolo are now British citizens and have established family lives in this country, so are likely to stay beyond the end of their playing careers.

So my overall comment is that no-one did anything wrong to the letter of the rules and regulations, but to me there are a few areas where the letter of the law differs from what the objectives and spirit of the law are meant to be. This is particularly the case in this era of professional players moving around the world - the eligibility laws haven't moved on sufficiently to reflect the changing realities of the game, which is to the (so far fortunately fairly slight) detriment of international rugby. Residency qualification need another visit, with the qualification period being extended particularly for those who move to a country to play professional sport (I'd also remove qualification by grandparents, but that's a different discussion).

geoff998rugby wrote:Maybe I'm old fashioned but I like my internationals playing for the country they consider home

I'm as English as can be but consider Canada my home, the place where I will likely spend at the rest of my working life and probably my retirement (should I be lucky enough to live that long). It's not always as straight forward as some people think.

Mike Catt saved our bacon against Wales if you remember rightly....

Is that the game where that Son of The Valley's, Mr Charvis, scored against his home country?

Well, for me, the bloke played the game of his life in the 3rd test for the Lions...he hurt his shoulder whilst putting in some unbelieveable tackles and never really recovered his form after.

Good luck to the man for the future, and thank you for that 3rd test performance.

dragonbreath wrote:

HERSH wrote:Maybe he should get some advice from another former NH player Shane Howarth on adapting to life in NZ?

Shane was devastated by the news he had a Welsh grandfather (who got to know his Grandmother around the back of a barn after too much Steinlager) he didn't know he had and spends much of his time in libraries and lineage websites in an attempt to find out who he was. However as many young Welshgirls have discovered, trying to find a Welshman who has knocked you up and doesn't want to be found is next to impossible

Equo Troiano wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote: We discussed this elsewhere and no one could come up with an Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents since Andy Ward who qualified through residence around 2000 and has stayed here ever since i.e. a true migrant not a mercanary.

So you couldn't come up with a single Irish international who did 't qualify via birth, parents or grandparents - excpet Andy Ward, who didn't.

I think you need to reread.

No individual was able to identify a residency qualified player since Andy Ward

So, Andy Ward came over in 2000 and is therefore now a 'true migrant'.

Whereas Flutey, who came over (in very much the same way I would imagine) is a mercenary.

So somehow, the two are different. In your mind. I hadn't realised that the difference between migrants and mercenaries (mercenaries? A military term out of context with this discussion) was time banded or caveated. I doubt many other rational people had either.

This argument has been done to death

The difference is Ward has settled here and will probably live here until he is 6 foot under.
For him Ireland is home

Flutey went back home as soon as his professional circumstances meant he did see any need to stay.
For him NZ is home

Thats the difference

HammerofThunor wrote:

I don't really understand your Boss point regarding tha fact he's been here for 7 years. He was here 1 year before being capped by Ireland. It was purely because he had an Irish granny. Hape has been in England for 9 years now, I doubt that will change some people opinions on him playing ofr England.

The fact he could play after 1 year is something I dont agree with but at least he qualified through the family based rules. I have no idea of Hape's circumstances so cant comment. For the record I am fine with Manu and Hartley playing for England.

HammerofThunor wrote: The point about Project players is not that it's failed. It's the fact the IRFU has system that actively encourages possibly residency players to come to Ireland to gain residency qualification. If Flutey had come on something like that I could understand the bad feelings. However Flutey came here for personal and economical reasons (the most common reasons for anyone to emmigrate) and was treated as a 'foreign' player until the day he gained qualification. And from then on he was treated exactly the same as any qualified player.

There is a common misconception with respect to the Project system (something I dislike). It was brought in to help the Provinces not Ireland. Helping Ireland was seen as an ancillary benefit. This can be seen by the fact a number of the players brought in were because the province in question was short in that area and the player was/is short of international class - Diack for example.
Flutey came here, I believe, because he wasn't good enough, at the time, to make it in Super 15 (An opinion put to me by some Kiwi friends). I would like to see people who qualify through residency and grandparents be required to stay playing in that country to be able to continue to be eligable to play for their new country.

If it's to help the provinces why not just have 5 NIQ players rather than 4+1? The ONLY reason I can think of is that it will encourage the provinces to bring in players who will gain qualification for Ireland.

Flutey wasn't good enough for the S14. He also had a drink problem and had got in trouble for violence (he nearly ended up in an Argentinian prison during a tour). Moving allowed him to start a fresh and fair play to the guy.

I'm sorry but I really don't agree (and this is obviously my personal opinion) that Boss' familial links are 'better' than residency qualification. My mum doesn't actually know who he granddad is. If he turned out to be Irish would that make her more 'Irish' than some who emigrated there? Bearing in mind that would be the only link. I'd say not. Other may prefer a blood link.

For the record Riki Flutey is in NZ parlance a five-eight,with the skill sets for 10,12 and 15.He qualified via the normal residency rules,having previouslyrepresented NZ at under 19 level and NZ Maori,Hurricanes and presumeably the Province.Like Nick Evans,and many more he came to UKt o get game time.His rivals were Tana Umaga,Ma`a Nonu,and Conrad Smith!!!
at the hurricanes all All Blacks.He was capped for England and the Lions BUT for injury I believe he could have been a fixture.Certainly he is THE best 12 i`ve seen
inan England shirt recently.Prior to the 3rd test 2009 Lions Stephen Jones ,not noted for praising Kiwi`s asked if he could defend.AFTER the test Jones was drooling at the mouth over Fluteys Herculean defensive effort.HE was a key factor in winning that test .His wife and he are going home to have a child close to his relatives ,natural enough.Good Luck to him,wish he was still fit/in form and playing for England now.

Morgannwg wrote:Not sure why he purposely posted the most blatant typo's, it kinda gives it away.

I love the irony of a typo in "typo's". That just brightened my day.

Hello fellows, I have decided to joining your forum here after some period of reading your variedous opinion and watching on with enjoyment at your arguemends and discuss. But maybe first time I will apology for my English which is still not so big. But I will try and I hope you can be patient in consider my posts in as much as if I can speak so fluent.

But my first thing that lead me to commenting here and finally doing the register is to wonder why is this issue for players to moving by the country. For me is easy to understand and perhaps involves my feelings to some appropriate.

I wondered why do you find the problem so biting? Some player might go here and then to there and playing, and then move some more. There is more about the world today and not something about rugby so much in my thoughts anyway.

For the player such as Flutey who would never bother the selectors from his country true to birth, is a good thing that he were welcome so much by England, and this is only true to the rule? and now when really time is for moving onwards and no longer is her a chance and having already participate to the world cup, is only natural to return home and maybe onward again to Japan.

I think here is some joke by a posters about his predicamint.

Just my feeling. Which I try so badly to express.

Anotherworldofpain

Your English suggests your from Japan.

Thankyou for saying this aucklandlaurie but I am not feel English yet.

Welcome AnotherWorldOfPain