Toulon v Quins

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Harlequins team to face Toulon

15. Mike Brown
14. Tom Williams
13. Matt Hopper
12. Jordan turner-Hall
11. Ugo Monye
10. Rory Clegg
9. Karl Dickson

1. Mark Lambert
2. Rob Buchanan
3. James Johnston
4. Tomas Vallejos
5. George Robson (C)
6. Tom Guest
7. Luke wallace
8. Nick Easter

16. Aston Croall
17. Joe Marler
18. Will Collier
19. Pete Browne
20. Maurie Fa'asavalu
21. Danny Care
22. Benjamin Urdapilleta
23. George Lowe

Oh dear - no Nick Evans, no Robshaw, no Olly Kohn.
Great impact off the bench though.

Yappy that's a very good and honest review. I haven't seen Quins be overly active in signing players to address strength in depth, are there many rumours flying around?

Hopefully your boys will be able to dust them self off and focus on winning the Jeff.

It is hard to judge Clegg when the pack were so comprehensively outplayed. Usually when he plays O'Shea is resting key players - something Quins cannot afford to do when playing physical sides if they want to compete.

Quins themselves are a conundrum to me. Looking purely at their displays against European teams - so often they have been beaten up physically. They had a stunning performance against Munster last year, showed great commotment to pinch a win against Stade when they wereoutplayed for much of the final.
Then this season - at times they looked like little chidren when playing Connacht and Toulouse - yet still managed a win in France through the sheer desire to work and tackle (and arguably a ref very forgiving at the breakdown).
Yet this very same commitment to the cause that has taken them to the top of the AP and secred the Amlin looked missing from most of the players who were on the pitch last night. Almost as if they did not care.
Perhaps they did not - but if so a dangerous mindset to get into.

HongKong, O'Shea has come out saying that we'll rely on the academy first off rather then big name signings so the only new players will probably be championship class if we do get any.

It's annoying as we do need some new blood in the pack but we just don't have the money.

LondonTiger, it's bizarre isn't it? When we're on form we're a team of Hulks. But too often in the big games we've looked like what we are; a team of youngsters who have massive potential but don't have the power or grit to win multiple big games on the bounce.

The first XV is a match for any team in the NH but just a couple of injuries can derail us.

Morgannwg wrote:I just said RCT (toulon) are playing Stade.

i was talking to pothale

yappysnap wrote:HongKong, O'Shea has come out saying that we'll rely on the academy first off rather then big name signings so the only new players will probably be championship class if we do get any.

It's annoying as we do need some new blood in the pack but we just don't have the money.

LondonTiger, it's bizarre isn't it? When we're on form we're a team of Hulks. But too often in the big games we've looked like what we are; a team of youngsters who have massive potential but don't have the power or grit to win multiple big games on the bounce.

The first XV is a match for any team in the NH but just a couple of injuries can derail us.

Thats not neccesarily a bad thing. Quins have the youngsters with high skills coming through...they need some beasts ( ie Robson / Gray just look underpowered to me)....and for what many of the championship players might lack in elite skills...there are some big tough bruising guys down there..... that could give Quins the power they are missing...

We desperately need more power, in the 'Three Players' thread I went for two front row players and a lock and I think that's about right, more ballast and dog there and we'd be a lot harder to beat.

Sadly as mentioned I can't see us making any signings as so far there's not even a sniff of anything.

Although saying that I'm sure Falcons have a few forwards we wouldn't mind having...

And Launchberry from Wasps looks good.

If we can win the AP, then I don't care how badly munched we got in Toulon. Would have been nicer to not completely destroy our momentum from Wembley though. But last time a French side taught us a lesson we really turned up to the next game so hopefully we can take out some self-anger on Wasps and Tigers. I think this highlights that for the latter at least we will need our best possible pack though

Watching that young Wasps pack against Bearritz i'd say that we need our strongest pack for both games and we really need to play Robshaw and Mori in both! Guest just isn't good enough at 6 to compete against the biggest packs.

Didn't catch this game unfortunately. Hear that Steffon played a blinder, but how did Wallace get on?

Wallace did well. As well as you can do as your pack gets humped anyway, he stole some important ball, ran well and linked well. Could have done with Maurie at 6 from the start to help him a bit.

He wasn't as good as Steffon, but then Armitage was in the dominant pack.

Good to hear, cheers Yappy. Think both Wallace and Armitage are in with a chance of going to SA?

I agree with yappy's earlier comments - we need another solid 10 for Quins. Clegg has had a chance - been coached/mentored by some of the best 10's in the world (or other very good 10's)
Wilko, Flood, Evans, Walder, (was he at Quins when Mertens was there).
Anyway - point being that he should be a lot better than he is now.

Another solid TH and a Lock would be added to the list. Hudson from Falcons would be nice, or Marco Wentzel ect. (is he still with Leeds)

I think Guest still needs a bit of time to get back to his best - play him at 8 to cover Easter and leave him there.

bluestonevedder wrote:Good to hear, cheers Yappy. Think both Wallace and Armitage are in with a chance of going to SA?

I think they should both go.

Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Armitage, Morgan, Gibson should be the back row options in the touring squad.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Armitage, Morgan, Gibson should be the back row options in the touring squad.

+1. Good backrow selections.

There is no specialist backup 8 in that squad list.
Armitage and Robshaw at a push could cover - but dont we need 2 specialists in the squad.

We've got a decent scrum so we HAVE to have cover that can control the ball at the base. Also SA have a decent scrum and if they get dominance we HAVE to have cover that can control the ball at the base. Especially since Morgan may not last a full game (and will not be playing mid-week). I'd take Fearns for that. He's played 8 a lot in the past and is playing really well (from the limited amount I've seen).

propdavid_london wrote:Another solid TH and a Lock would be added to the list. Hudson from Falcons would be nice, or Marco Wentzel ect. (is he still with Leeds)

nope he is at Wasps, was doing well but injured.

propdavid_london wrote:There is no specialist backup 8 in that squad list.
Armitage and Robshaw at a push could cover - but dont we need 2 specialists in the squad.

Gibson is an 8.

Is he? Well that covers that then.

However, Dowson will be going. I can almost garuntee it. I imagine the squad from the 6 nations will go with 8 extra players.

So the back row will be

Croft, Robshaw, Dowson, Morgan, [Clark] and Wood.

Clark need replacing of course. Looking at that, if SL is happy with French based players, then Armitage comes in for Clark. Then we need one more. Gibson would fit well if he's an 8 as he'll partially replace Dowson and cover 7 (he does play there a lot for Irish doesn't he?). Maybe Wallace or Fearns.

Problem is who do we take at 8 to cover? I think Gibson has played a fair bit of age grade rugby there but otherwise? Vunipola maybe? He's certainly big enough to cope with the physicality of the tour.

PropDavid,

I think there really need to be question marks over Clegg and Valejos.

Clegg just seems to be stalled at them moment and although it's probably O'Sheas fault for not giving him more time earlier we can't be trying to fix it this late in the season.

Valejos I thought would be a brilliant signing but just seems leightwieght and lazy when he plays.

Guest at 6 just doesn't work for us, it's like taking Croft at 6 but Tigers can do that because they have monsters in the tight five, we have some more Croft's in there. We must play Maurie or Robshaw at 6 or else take the academy lad... damn forgot his name now! Guest should be bench cover or starting 8. If we must have Easter i'd have him in the second row alongside Robson.

My last complaint is the wings. Williams got back in to the side after some massive games off the bench. But the moment he's started he has hardly appeared, the hungers just not there. Likewise Monye just doesn't seem to want the ball any more.

We have Smith, Stegmann, Chisholm, Walker, Lindsey-Hague and at a push Hopper who can all play on the wings and are all more threatening (questions over a couples defence though). I want to see Monye stay but one of those others must start and another on the bench.

I find it very hard to draw any firm conclusions from Friday's game. Quins clearly weren't at the races physically or mentally compared to Toulon - although we know from the way they hit back against Toulouse that they can front up physically.

Mr Clancy's refereeing didn't help - while I understand he was accurate in blowing up for Quins' offences at the breakdown he seemed unconcerned by how far offside Toulon were playing (including one occasion when their loosehead joined a ruck from behind Quins' back feet...).

My main thoughts are:
1) COS was far more concerned about the Premiership run-in than the Amlin. With hindsight, that's pretty clear from his comments before and after the game.
2) Quins began the game with 8 starting players either benched or injured (Marler, Fa'asavalu, Care and Lowe on the bench, Gray, Kohn, Robshaw and Evans didn't travel). Against a full-strength Toulon side, they were always going to struggle. Joe, Mo and Danny all made a difference when they came on.
3) Ollie Kohn is the unsung hero of the Quins pack. It all works much better when he is on. Vallejos lacks a little in both heft and judgement, and it tends to cost us. I think Charlie Matthews will begin to challenge him over the next couple of years, but for now Ollie is crucial to our game
4) Hard to call on Cleggy. The skills are clearly there, but he seems to lack the confidence to just keep doing his own thing when the going gets tough. When he tries to force the game, it just falls apart.

Cheers LT - yup, forgot he transferred to Wasps. Hadnt seen him for a while so thought that he was in the Championship.

Poorfour - all fair comments, completely agree.

Yappy - I agree too. Quins have looked much more threatening with the youngsters on the wing (Stegman and Smith). Sadly we offer much less with the more experienced guys on the pitch. Monye offers a lot in defense though.

Chisholm, has electric pace (when he catches the ball), and there are questions over his defense.
Lindsey-Hague was great at 7's, only had limited appearances for Quins 1st team (I read somewhere that there were other issues off field that were preventing him making more matchday squads).

Quins have just signed another hooker - Dave Ward from Cornish Pirates.
http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12546/7663321/Quins-secure-Ward-deal

Squad replacement for the retired Cairns.

Gibson is an 8 who can cover 6 and 7. He played the early part of this season at 7 as we had no other 7 and was our best player in most games. Then he got injured and our results were shocking. He is now back and started the last couple of games at 8, which is where I think Brian Smith sees him playing. Quality player and has the rugby nous to step up and play at international level.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Croft, Robshaw, Wood, Wallace, Armitage, Morgan, Gibson should be the back row options in the touring squad.

My only change to that would be Fearns in place of Gibson. Gibson is a very decent player, but I think Fearns is better. He's just as if not more capable of covering the whole backrow, with good breakdown ability and an extra bit of physicality & bulk that I think we'll need against SA sides and to balance out our backrow.

Gibson looked quality for the age grades that i've seen him play in, a lot more technically sound then Fearns who as you say is a more physical player; either would be a good shout.

As mentioned I imagine we'll probably take Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Dowson, Morgan and one other (should be 7/8). Seeing as we'll have Lawes who covers 6 as well.