If roles were reversed

In the "When We Were Kings" documentary, just after Foreman sustains a cut that postpones the bout, there's a bit when it's alleged Ali suggested drafting in Joe Frazier as a replacement.

Now, had this come about and then Foreman faced Ali in Manila, how would things have panned out? Would Ali still have prevailed in Zaire? Would there still be controversy over the end of the "Thriller"? Would Ali's standing be improved or not?

Personally, I think the fight in Zaire would still go to Ali in a close but non-controversial decision. I feel that, if there IS such a thing as destiny, it was always Ali's destiny to prevail in Africa. (Hey, it's not a particularly scientific answer, it's just my gut feeling)

As for Manila, given the way Ali started that fight, I don't believe Foreman could have lived with him or coped with the humidity that day. I think Ali would have worn him down and KO'd him late.

Anyone feel differently about it?

Funny thing is that Foreman won his title in Kingston, Jamaica, in the month of January.

Average temperature for January 72 degrees, humidity 74.8%


He defended against Norton, in Caracas, in March.

Average temperature in March 81 degrees, humidity 76%


He lost to Ali, in Zaire, in October.

Average temperature in October 81 degrees, humidity 77%


This would suggest that, whatever Foreman's problems might have been in Zaire, the weather wouldn't have been significant.

Dunno Windy, the humity in Manila was almost off the scale (90's?). I still see Foreman trying the same pressure tactics against Ali as he did in Zaire (I don't believe the Rope-a-Dope would have worked against Frazier - he was a totally different animal so the phenomenon would still be unheard of) with Big George trying to blast his man out of there and I feel George'd succumb to the conditions eventually.

In Manila, I think the animosity between Ali and Frazier drove them on to superhuman efforts that day and I honestly don't think George was capable of such feats.

Don't think it would have made the slightest difference....Still would have been a war with Frazier.......which Ali would have won....

Had foreman-Ali been fought anywhere at anytime the Ali rope a dope would have had the same outcome..

But maybe a round or so later....Foreman really was jobbed that night

As some still feel Ali was lucky to win in Manila ("Well, he asked for his gloves to be cut off and then fainted at the end...blah blah blah") and subsequently seem to mark him down because of it, would a close but clear win over Frazier in Zaire mean there's less inclination (as there seems to be recently) to suggest Ali is undeserving of a spot at the top of the tree?

Not really because only a dumbass would have anybody else top....

Nobody beat more alltime heavy greats than this guy..

I think Manila improves his legend rather than detracts form it..

Sadly, nuggets do still believe that Ali wanted to quit in that fight...conveniently forgetting that he also wanted to quit against Liston when he was "blinded" in the fourth(?) giving creedance to Dundee's suggestion that Ali could be a big baby at times

Definitely; there have been very few fighters who left as much in the ring as both Ali and Frazier did that night.

Neither men were even close to the same ever again. They both literally left their primes in the the ring.

Think we could all be big babies if a substance was stinging our eyes and we couldn't see.. when we've got a big master blaster killing machine waiting to smack the crud out of us in the other corner..

Me thinks Dundee's definition of baby needs changing..

DAVE667 wrote:Dunno Windy, the humity in Manila was almost off the scale (90's?).

Sorry, Dave, I wrote that post in a hurry and didn't explain myself very well.

What I mean is that conspiracists tend to blame the humidity in Zaire for George's downfall, despite the fact that he did fine and dandy in Jamaica and Venezuela when the prevailing temperature and humidity were pretty much the same.

You ever heard of a conspiracist that's been right!!

Oswald killed kennedy
Sirhan killed RFK
Bush didn't bring down the twin towers...
Armstrong didn't take his giant step in a hangar in Bognor regis..

Only conspiracy that could possibly be true is Ray not killing Martin luther...

Loonies..the lot of them......All vote tory like Scotty I bet.

Gone are the days when the world title was fought in other countries other than USA and Europe. They were true world champs and took their titles across the globe.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think we could all be big babies if a substance was stinging our eyes and we couldn't see.. when we've got a big master blaster killing machine waiting to smack the crud out of us in the other corner..

Me thinks Dundee's definition of baby needs changing..

Ali also needed his ego boosting when away from the glare of the cameras and would often ask Dundee, "Am I faster/better that this guy? Do I hit harder than this guy?" to which Dundee would often say, "Course to are/do Champ" and Ali would be right as ninepence.

So maybe "Drama Queen" or "Diva" would be as appropriate!!

Why are they true world champs??????????

Money talks.......in Boxing it always has...If you get a better dollar in America you fight there!!

Are you naive or something!!!!!

You not think all human beings have self doubt at some point......

Reading too much into it....

Even I have to ask my Wife if i'm still the same God she married years ago.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You not think all human beings have self doubt at some point......

Reading too much into it....

Even I have to ask my Wife if i'm still the same God she married years ago.......

Not reading anything into it, nor am I suggesting that it in anyway diminishes Ali, I'm simply repeating what Dundee has said about his man. I find it quite amusing that he had such child like qualities at times.

There's a tale about him staying in a hotel and Hunter S Thompson, off his face of Lord only knows what, thought it would be hilarious to wear a devil's mask and burst into Ali's room. Ali's entourage, all armed to the teeth were about to blast numerous holes in Thompson who quickly (and wisely) whipped off his mask.

Rather than raise holy hell with him, Ali is alleged to have asked, "Hey, can I have that mask, it looks neat?"

As for your wife, I'm sure she still thinks you look like a God...only these days it's Buddah!

Ali was a mass of contradiction......Those that new him well saw a complete 180 degree difference between the actual Man and the legend...

Lot's of greats have needed bigging up and it's usually the mouthy ones.........

Tyson was the same........................

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why are they true world champs??????????

Money talks.......in Boxing it always has...If you get a better dollar in America you fight there!!

Are you naive or something!!!!!

Who is suggesting that money doesn't talk. If I were a pro boxer I'd go where the money is. But I', not. I'm a fan. I simply missed and liked the days when world champs fought all over the world.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ali was a mass of contradiction......Those that new him well saw a complete 180 degree difference between the actual Man and the legend...

Lot's of greats have needed bigging up and it's usually the mouthy ones.........

Tyson was the same........................

'Cept that, when it mattered, Ali had a much better success rate!

He was a better fighter...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He was a better fighter...

What? Than "Prime/Peak" Mike Tyson...now you're being silly.

Think the fact Ali was a consummate professional helped..When Rooney left so did Tyson's work ethic...

Ali kept learning....Tyson stalled and went backwards.......

Fact is sometimes you need reaffirming what you already know deep down..

Ali was confident anyway..........

Ali would have beaten Tyson before the first bell, with or without Rooney in his corner.