The Rabo, Wales, and the rest

Having followed this site for nearly about nine months I have finally registered and so I can post something that bothers me.

While a sizable minority of welsh club supports have seen regionalism as the way forward the majority have not and see it as the four supper clubs. Many talk about leaving regionalism and going back to a pro welsh league or that the Rabo does little to help Wales that they couldn’t do themselves. I am sure many are fed up with the few posters who complain that they should leave.

My suggestion is as follows.

Wales
Go back to club rugby and make North Wales the only region. This allows the tribalism to stay and provide the development of the North. I would suggest the WRU own the Region but have it be self-managing (like in Ireland).

You create an A and B premiership with six teams in each. At the end of the season, one team goes up and one team goes down. I would also put in it that North Wales would be in A for three years and possibly also HC to build the team and provide it with a solid footing. With the extra teams, Wales could apply for more Amlin places.
Each team would play the other five teams four times. This would allow for a good rivalry that the welsh love so much. The week before the HC the top four teams from the pervious year would play to up the level akin the Munster v Leinster.

Each Club would be provided money based on where they finish in the league. I know my figures are wrong but around 6m is spent on the regions and Prem so that would be given as follows 4.5m to A and 1.5 to B
A1=1.0m B1=0.5m
A2=0.9m B2=0.4m
A3=0.8m B3=0.3m
A4=0.7m B4=0.2m
A5=0.6m B5=0.1m
A6=0.5m B6 & Promoted 0m

As to the existing regions, I would let them choose if they wanted to stay as is or disband. I think all would choose to stay and keep the best players and add in the premiership team with their region team.

This would result in the four regions being the super clubs with North and Ponty in A though it would be the last premiership Winners.

All Teams would have to be breaking even over two years to avoid the money issues of last time around ie. take profit and loss for last two years.
They could put penalties in place for breakers such as no WRU money, demotion, expulsion from Euro or player signing freeze
The WRU could come up with their own plan for how many NWQ players etc.

So now, there are four less places and in reality three of the stronger teams gone. This is how I suggest to counter the lost.

1. We invite Cornish Pirates to enter or London Scottish or some other team, as it isn’t much further then Wales. There is also a SAFA team based in London (no jibs at any club and my wife is a SAFA just it would have the most SAFAs to go watch and this could be done with a NZ and AUZ team aswell though SAFA have the money)
a) Why would they want to as they could be in the Aviva – well that would be an issue but I think I could still be looked at.
b) Could they replace the level provided by the Welsh? I am sure they could be about the same as the Dragons and as Exeter showed the Championship isn’t that far from the Aviva and in turn the Rabo
c) the the SH team it would be a chance to get more people playing and possibly HC for them. The TV money from SAFA to the HC i'm sure could get them a place.
2 Munster A and Leinster A play in the Rabo.
a) Why would they risk their big squads to injuries? First I think that they are big enough to put out two 22 teams each week and I think the level wouldn’t be that much of a drop either as people fight to get into the 1st 22 by showing themselves capable against the same opposition as the 1st team. If you look at the B&I cup teams they weren’t bad teams. Many people bemoan how in Ireland it is hard for the youngsters to be noticed. This would surely fix it. These A teams would not be in Euro Rugby so would not take away from Connacht
b) How would logistics work? Muster would play both Italian teams on the one weekend and the Scottish teams on the one weekend. There would be some issues but I’m sure with a couple a brains they could do it.
c) Level – I think they could nearly equal the welsh especially Lenister
d) Support – I think Muster could rotate home teams as between their two places. Also for Irish derbies and the local derby between Munster and their A would get good crowds
e) I also think Ulster could do it as could one of the Scottish teams if it was nominated to have a bigger squad and it could play games in the south or North or both.
3 The other option is leave the weeks open to have a cup or leave them blank thus playing full teams more often so as to reduce “weak teams” being played
I do a cup it would be winners of Italy v winners of Scotland playing winners of Ireland so three in one cup


To be honest Irish Club rugby is fine and from all acounts the rising regeration will replace the exisiting one ok. I don't think Ireland would ever leave the Rabo
Scotland maybe about to turn a corner but I think they can't leave the Rabo and see it as a good thing that can help them.
Even though Aronini are having issues I think it is more poor planing then Italy. Their regions are getting better attendances then the Clubs were. Treviso in all honesty could have won three home HC games which was unthinkable three years ago. Italy can run a second team fine and will only get beter.

This also allows more growth for counrties if they did want to expand where as currently would we want many more teams.

IF you could enter on the poll the outcome for each country

I think tribalism is a ridiculous word to use. It implies that you are talking a out mindless savages not the rashional hard working public.

Most of your ideas would be the death of welsh rugby.

I recommend you read the interview with David Pickering. Welsh rugby can not survive without the academies. They are what are making us strong. We need infrastructure at youth level and a direction to adult rugby.

The Regions have made mistakes but have also been a huge step forward. Professional rugby in wales would not gave worked without them.

The people who are most disinfranchised are the Ospreys and Blues fans. The two regions who had the most foreign players, who spent the most money, all in the wrong places.

Scarlets and Dragons fans are much happier with their squad with very few foreigners, mainly academy local talent that has progressed through their regional system.

The ospreys are changing, so are the blues.

Success in the HEC, less poor foreign signings like Foutaili or Parks, cheaper tickets and welsh regional rugby will be a huge success.

the regions are doing what they were set up to do - supply quality welsh players to the welsh national side. By having less pro teams there is less space available for mediocre players to take up contracts, the route to the top level in wales is therefore tougher for a player so only the very best get there, likewise to stay there they have to improve and fight for their place otherwise there will be better youngsters coming through, this provides a pool of players of a better quality for the national coach to pick from...like i said they are achieving their aim in this regard

what they are not doing is performing well as existing brands and teams in their own right....this is because

1. the way in which they came about has left some in areas without pro rugby and the regions when times were good (i.e benefactors were happy to put money in) ignored these areas, which is now backfiring as the regions need all the support they can get

2. perhaps there is not enough talent in wales for four teams full of welsh players to compete in europe, take the scarlets last night, a backline full of class, a lions hooker an eng int 8 but due to their foreign TH being unfit got demolished in the scrum which ultimately lost them the game. Blues without their imports are and are going to struggle even though they have 3-4 class players, the ospreys have a very strong squad but have still bought in some astute signings, kahn fo, stowers, bearman, as well as developing their acadamies well, i actualy think the o's and scarlets will be the flag bearers for wales over the next couple of years, and the dragons who from day one have worked within their means have developed some gems, some good players who have moved on but truggle to keep the squad together for long periods of time

3. armchair supporters in wales being able to watch much of the rugby on tv is detrimental to the regional game

however because they are all contributing to a very healthy welsh squad the regions or at least the regional concept MUST remain. Furthermore what is pleasing is our second tier game seems to be improving with most premiership teams being full of young welsh talent rugby to make the step up, this comp will only get better as it gets trimmed down to 12 (and hopefully 10 in the future-id like 8 tbh) an indicator of this is how Cross Keys beat full time outfit Cornish Pirates on the weekend to reach the final of the B&I cup a feat unmatched by a welsh team if im correct, as for a way of improving the regional concept i think one of the three things could happen

1. remain the same, the game in wales is going through some drastic changes as money is tight, but tbf the scarlets have already had two seasons of this and are performing well on the business side and have developed a tam of good young talent who if they could develop a good TH/scrum could really challenge, it is only realy the blues who are going to go through a period of real pain next year, the other three either already operate within budget (dragons) or have made the neccessary changes to survive (ospreys/scarlets)

2. Keep existing regions but with an empahsis on tru regions. The scarlets and ospreys already are embracing their region (the scarlets attendances reflect this) the blues and dragons need to embrace the valley part of their region, this means biting the bullet and taking games away from their main stadia, sardis eugene cross penny darren park pontypool park all HAVE to host senior games for their regions otherwise it will not be bought into, it has to be tried simple as, if it is tried a good few times over a season or two and it doesnt work, at least you can turn round to the fans in these areas and say that they tried

3. a redesign of the regions, quite how this would work i have no idea, but lets be honest the yany fan who is 9 years old now only knows the region he supports, so why rip that up to start again? the only way i see it maybe working is four regions east (dragons blues) west (scarlet osprey) Valley and north however for this to work the games must be shared 50/50 between the major stadia again tho i cnt see many going for that outside the valleys and north

tbh what i think will happen is we will continue as we are, the WRU will change the funding model based on the fact that if they have 4 pro sides but they back two with more money they will still have four teams producing welsh plaeyrs but also two of them aremore likely to succeed in europe. TBH atm if they go with a 3-1 approach the dragons will be the ones to lose out, if they go 2 and 2 youd have to say the blues and dragons should lose out, but is that fair? the dragons have played within their budget from season 1 and have suffered on the pitch as a result, should they have the realistic chance of progress/success taken away from them because of it? would that be fair? no. but then do the wru ever play fair? probably not looking at history, and there is no way they are going to cut finding to their darlings in the capital.

i eagerly await the PWC report to come out

Ridiculous ideology. David Pickering has stated time and time again the WRU is committed to keeping the 4 Regions afloat so there is nothing left to debate about it.

The PWC report is key. It is very useful having an indepent evaluation of the financials and I am sure it will help the WRU to help the regions develop for the future.

Brendan wrote:Having followed this site for nearly about nine months I have finally registered and so I can post something that bothers me.

Welcome to the forum.

Going back to the club game would be lunacy, how much will the Blues boys learn if we go back to scores like Cardiff 116-0 Dunvant, and Swansea 95-22 Cross Keys? Does anyone think that will make the international players better players?

The truth is massive gains have been made by Welsh rugby and cutting out the weak teams and replacing them with strong Irish provinces so we have a higher intensity level of rugby each week. Granted the Rabo Direct features mainly weakened squad with internationals missing, but an Ulster team without it's internationals is still 40 points better than a Cross Keys or Dunvant side.

Brendan wrote:
While a sizable minority of welsh club supports have seen regionalism as the way forward the majority have not and see it as the four supper clubs.

What 'majority' is this? The event-goers who rock up to the Millenium Stadium to shout 'gerrimdown' everytime there's a scrum or penalty or the 1% of the population of Rhondda Cynon Taff who turn up to watch Pontypridd?



The 'majority' have not embraced regional rugby because they don't care about rugby one way or the other, they just like a good drink every February.

1mil for the top welsh club

Wow...that will compete with the 7.2mil French or 4.5mil English...

I think it would be a lose/lose/lose/lose scenario. All four nations that participate in the Rabo would lose.

Wales have bought into the Irish model (which is a very natural model for Ireland and works very well for them). However it was kind of forced on Wales, and isn't a perfect fit. However, it may still be the best method out there. The only other option Wales had in my opinion would have been to take the 4 Rabo places and issue licences under a franchise agreement (similar to NFL teams) to 4 clubs, which would be subject to review (with Premiership clubs bidding to take the licences off the selected clubs). Whether this would have been any better though is anyone's guess.

However, now Wales have set their stall out they've got to see it through. The regions have only been in place for x years (not sure exactly how many, but I don't think it is more than 10) and people need time to fully buy in to the concept. The regions need to grow, the academies need to continue pushing out the talent (which they have to an extent, as can be seen by the National team's success).

wales606 wrote:1mil for the top welsh club

Wow...that will compete with the 7.2mil French or 4.5mil English...

Yeah that is their salary caps however the French can earn another 10 million or more from ticket sales, investment, sponsorship, merchandise sales, etc... I believe Toulouse have a budget of 30 million euro's?

The prize money would be for placing. What is to stop people like cuddy and others putting in their top up-money and competting. Surely the blues playing the other three clubs plus a north wales and ponty etc must about the same as the lower Rabo.
Also surely attendances would rise bring in more money.

I was hoping more Scot and Irish would comment as I would like to know more about what would happen to the Rabo less wales.

Me being irish and propably not unbias I think Ireland's A teams could compete

Also I don't see how the welsh would do much worse then they are in Europe and also as bad as aronini are Lecister didn't get an away BP.
Also the academies can be run as is but done by the WRU and assigned to different Clubs.
Having fixed Acdemies would not affect prom/relegation

How would the rabo be without Wales? Well the Irish sides would have to stay in it. It would be less interesting. What else could we say? Not good for us or the league.