My thoughts on English and Welsh club rugby

Heineken Cup Quarter-Finalists (Semi-Finalists):
Ireland: 3 (2)
France: 2 (1)
Scotland: 1 (1)
England: 1
Wales 1

Amlin Cup Quater-Finalists (Semi-Finalists):
France 4 (4)
England 3
Wales 1
At this point it might be worth noting that there was no Irish involvement in the Amlin Cup.

I think a problem that both English clubs and Welsh clubs have is that they employ too many average foreigners. You look at Leinster, Ulster and Munster with their quotas on NIQ players and they exclusively pick foreign players that add something to their teams (over the last few years Nacewa, Elsom, Howlett, BJ Botha and Pienaar, to name a few). You look at the French clubs with their big cheque books, and they are signing some of the best players from both hemispheres.

However in Wales and England we seem to be left with some average players who aren't really adding much or may be a little past their best. Players like Bowe and Morgan as current internationals being exceptions to the rule in Wales while players like Castrogiovanni and Evans being exceptions in England, but for every talismanic "import" there seems to be quite a bit of what I will perhaps unfairly term "dross".

Although as an economist I'm a big fan of free markets and generally against quotas, I can't help but think England and Wales, in their desperate attempts to scrap for Heineken Cup places (and avoid relegation, in the case of the English clubs) are mortgaging their futures for current success (relative to their contemporaries). In England Heineken Cup qualification is based on league finishes and in Wales Heineken Cup qualification is based on league finishes relative to other Welsh clubs (or regions - call them what you will). Looking at the Rabo, Scottish and Italian clubs are guaranteed their Heineken Cup places and the three top Irish clubs (due to the set-up in Ireland where Connacht is seen as the fourth Irish region, whereas in Wales they are all seen as 1 of 4 regions) are pretty much guaranteed their spots, whereas there only seems to be a competition between the Welsh clubs. (read the quoted section if you disagree with this statement, skip if you agree).

Looking at the table this year the Ospreys are having a good league season, but the other 3 Welsh clubs are 6, 7 and 8, one of them will miss out on Heineken Cup qualification by a fine margin. Conversely the only other fight for a Heineken Cup place sees Connacht 5 places behind Ulster. Last year, Connacht were 6 places behind Ulster with the Welsh clubs at 4, 5, 6 and 7 and since the rule changes on who qualifies for the Heineken Cup (the removal of the Italo-Celtic play-off for the 2009-10 season), Connacht have never finished closer to the 3rd placed Irish region than the 4th placed Welsh region has to the 3rd placed Welsh region.

French clubs (who have the money for current success at the very top level) seem to be sustaining a very strong club game (albeit possibly at a detriment to their national side - see the Barclays Premier League vs the England National Football team) and Irish clubs (who seem to have found the formula that works for them at club level) on the other hand seem to be reaping the rewards of having this system in place for a number of years and have overtaken the Welsh and English clubs.

To use football analogies, Wales appear to be moving to the South American model, develop some home-grown players and let them leave (as their clubs don't have the finances to keep them). Fill that void with some new players coming through and keep the development going. Fine for the national team, but not so great for the Welsh clubs who will find themselves left behind.

England seem to be moving towards the German model. A decent league that's fun enough for the teams involved and may produce a club that can have a couple of years fighting it out at the sharp end of European competition, but regular representation in the latter stages doesn't seem to be a realistic possibility. Not many of either national team (which again is decent enough and bar a couple of nightmare tournaments always seems to be there or thereabouts, even if they haven't won as many trophies as they'd like) play outside the national league.

So what steps do you think each country could take to rectify the problems they face? Is there a solution, or will there always be a trade-off between club and international success (after all, Wales and England were 1 and 2 in the recent 6 Nations)?

If you believe, like me, that there are too many clubs looking to keep ticking over in the short-term, what possible solutions are there? Quotas? Franchise Heineken Cup entry? Quit playing the Heineken Cup because it's stupid and you don't want to win it anyway?

Thanks for reading my ramblings. Any comments anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

I think your being unfair on connacht, would a (just outside the top four) English club be able toqualify ahead of Leinster, Munster, or Ulster? Also is it not better that the irfu kept connacht going (not that well funded) rather than fold them like the wru did the warriors and Sru the boarders? Now they have rebuilt landsdowne they are funding then better, you can see the improvements in the games against harlequins and glouster. If they had folded then would they have bought them,back yet? I don't think so the wru and sru haves.t bought back there folded teams yet. All 3 unions are still paying for stadiums.

I actually believe Irish teams,performances in the h cup should be rewarded with a forth automatic spot (rather than having to will it) no one can say that the irfu and wru should get the same number of automatic spotsbased on performance.

The Irish provences would not have been half as sucsesful without their foreigners, Rocky Elsom practically won the HC for Leinster a few years ago and the likes of Botha, Howlett, Mafi, and the rest really make a difference. But that just goes to show how canny the IRFU are when it comes to allowing sides to employ NIQ within their game. But, seriously you will see a lot less NWQ within the Welsh regions next season with all 4 regions looking towards their academies which will show a downturn for the short time, but they will benefit in a season or two to come, the Scarlets had to do it for two seasons and the Ospreys started last season, the mess the Blues are in at the moment the only thing they can do next season is look for at their academy and the Dragons have always produced players of quality but have always struggled to keep hold of them.

I think Wales are still paying the price for the financial errors made when Henry was coach, and their inability to get to grips with professionalism. David Pickering as Chairman has been concentrating on getting the WRU debt down. In 2002 the debt was £72m, in 2012 the debt is £26m.

Basically it equates to about £4.6m being taken off the debt every year. That £4.6m could do a lot of good going into the regions in a few years which will help them a lot. It would enable the regions to hit the $4.5m salary cap enjoyed by the Engish teams and at least enable us to get pairity.

lorddowlais u are completely wrong yes of course the foreign players have been extremely important for our clubs success but the main reason for our sucess is that our acadamies are producing young talent for fun which is creating unbeliveable dept in our squad...the irish boys play a lot better for their clubs then country

Just to correct you, we aren't letting any players leave. We just can't stop the money chasers than want to leave. It's fine for players coming up to thirty or players already in their thirties but the way France are rumoured to be targetting every single Welsh youngster just makes them vultures. We want to keep all our players and have a stronger club game.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:lorddowlais u are completely wrong yes of course the foreign players have been extremely important for our clubs success but the main reason for our sucess is that our acadamies are producing young talent for fun which is creating unbeliveable dept in our squad...the irish boys play a lot better for their clubs then country

The best props, no.8, and scrum half in Ireland are all South African...

no they arent... i would easily have healy and ross over any of those south africans and thats def not true about the no.8...your right about the scrum half but sure theres nothing wrong with reddan and boss

Morgannwg wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:lorddowlais u are completely wrong yes of course the foreign players have been extremely important for our clubs success but the main reason for our sucess is that our acadamies are producing young talent for fun which is creating unbeliveable dept in our squad...the irish boys play a lot better for their clubs then country

The best props, no.8, and scrum half in Ireland are all South African...

That still leaves the best Hookers, locks, back row, fly halfs, centres and back three all being Irish.
The reason Ulster are doing so well is that we have a team full of young Irish talent (Gilroy, Marshal, Ferris, Cave and so on) that is complemented by our South Africans. We buy smart because we are limited to how many we buy.

Some members of the press like to focus on our SA but we are allowed no more than Munster and Leinster, we just buy smart and well. We have a good core of players that has been built around.

As for the article I am against even the idea of a Free Market and see as just another evil of capitalism. I also think attempting to copy any football model is a bad idea. All the top nations need to have all their best players playing at home, my opinion on it is, if it's good enough for the All Blacks well then it's good enough for us.

I think the Irish have signed better foreign players. But their success is based far more on home grown players with their commitment and passion. The passionate crowds would obviously help too. I think that better foreign coaches have been more important in Ireland than foreign players.

The fact is the Irish provinces have the best of both worlds. They have the condensed talent and squads with many home grown test players that regional rugby brings. And they have the history and tradition and passionate support which is normally associated with the club game.

And while they're not the richest, they're reasonably well off and have brought in very good foreign coaches, to fuse foreign idea's with Irish ones. Their desire for, and focus on European success is also unmatched. They define themselves on their Heineken Cup exploits. It's all the ingredients to a potent mix, before you even sprinkle in the likes of Brad Thorn and Doug Howlett.

Wannenburg is better than Heaslip on current form. I think Ulster are very reliant on their SA contingent along with Afoa. Just my opinion but they are a good team right now and if they are going to use their signins well then let them do it. I don't think Leinster and Munster over-rely on their NIQ's or have done in the past. they just tend to use them better than everyone else. Nacewa seems to be right at home with Leinster.

ye my arguement is based on munster and leinster not ulster becuase they are the sucessful teams over the last number of years...ulster is only now becoming a great european team

JayMaster3000 wrote:

That still leaves the best Hookers, locks, back row, fly halfs, centres and back three all being Irish.
The reason Ulster are doing so well is that we have a team full of young Irish talent (Gilroy, Marshal, Ferris, Cave and so on) that is complemented by our South Africans. We buy smart because we are limited to how many we buy.

Some members of the press like to focus on our SA but we are allowed no more than Munster and Leinster, we just buy smart and well. We have a good core of players that has been built around.

As for the article I am against even the idea of a Free Market and see as just another evil of capitalism. I also think attempting to copy any football model is a bad idea. All the top nations need to have all their best players playing at home, my opinion on it is, if it's good enough for the All Blacks well then it's good enough for us.

True apart from the back 3 part (Nacewa and Howlett ). And I also agree that Ulster have brought through those Irish players you mention and they are just as fundamental to the team as your SAs and John Afoa.

to say that the foreign players have won us the HC is just a daft statement and is one said just purely out of hatered

Robbo, this is kind of a discussion about clubs in all the HeC countries.

Great post though, very interesting read. I agree with much of what you say.

There have been plenty of arguments claiming the rabbo have an advantage over the Aviva premiership and the top 14 because they can rest players.

Look at how close the run in for the qualifying spots are for the playoffs and you see the quality in the rabbo.

3 points separate second and fifth and there are a couple of teams within a bonus point win of a chance too.


My other thought is that irelands fortunes will change a bit when the new IRFU proposal to prevent NIQs playing the same positions at the provinces. It will take time to build the depth in the positions they fill. We have seen that with the changes at the welsh regions.

In the long term the changes will be for the better.

ye it will be better for ireland...but it will have a downside to our provinces...tbh i care more about leinster then the ireland team because of the politics involved in the national side...which is why i dont want to see the new rules and also whats the point in these rules if deccie doesnt even play our young talent

LeinsterFan4life wrote:ye it will be better for ireland...but it will have a downside to our provinces...tbh i care more about leinster then the ireland team because of the politics involved in the national side...which is why i dont want to see the new rules and also whats the point in these rules if deccie doesnt even play our young talent

Tough situation...!

I think it will be good for leinster and the fellow provinces too though in the long run, rugby at the level it is currently at is unsustainable. The French budgets will tighten. But likewise so will the other european leagues and we will all see homegrown talent prosper.

As the OP reflects what happens in professional soccer as an example I'll do so myself, the clubs that consistently stay at the top of European soccer also produce more homegrown talent than those that rise and fall.

yes u are right in what your saying...but ill make my point again...what is the point in these rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent

LeinsterFan4life wrote:yes u are right in what your saying...but ill make my point again...what is the point in these rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent

Many were saying the same in Wales until a year ago.

maestegmafia wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:yes u are right in what your saying...but ill make my point again...what is the point in these rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent

Many were saying the same in Wales until a year ago.

Until injuries forced Gatland's hand?

Gatland could see that the players he was playing weren't good enough in the build up to the RWC. He identified the young talent and punted on them. Most of them paid off. Wales will reap the rewards for years. In fact, if you think about it, it was Gatland who gave debuts to a very young O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Stringer etc. and Ireland reaped the rewards for years, even after he was sacked.

Kidney played a geriatric/injured midfield of ROG, D'arcy, O'Driscoll in the RWC. He toyed with the idea of Sexton, but when push came to shove he went for old man ROG in the quarter final, who had a nightmare match, along side the spent D'arcy and the clearly injured O'Driscoll.

LondonTiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:yes u are right in what your saying...but ill make my point again...what is the point in these rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent

Many were saying the same in Wales until a year ago.

Until injuries forced Gatland's hand?

Not really. Priestland yes, but Roberts, north, halfpenny, Lydiate, Davies, jd2, all played their way in.

you still have answered my question...what is the point of these new rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent????

LeinsterFan4life wrote:you still have answered my question...what is the point of these new rules if deccie doesnt play our young talent????

I'm sure there are members with a better idea of how Declan kidney thinks than me.

but u said you want these new rules to be enforced and how it will benefit our national team...but if kidney doesnt play our young players how will it benefit our national team??? these rules can only be a bad thing if kidney stays as ireland coach

LeinsterFan4life wrote:but u said you want these new rules to be enforced and how it will benefit our national team...but if kidney doesnt play our young players how will it benefit our national team??? these rules can only be a bad thing if kidney stays as ireland coach

These new rules will give you more strength and depth in positions where you are weak at the moment because there are NIQs playing instead of young Irish players.

It's working here in Wales.

Why did European teams start importing SH players in the first place?

the only place we are weak is in the prop department...every other positon we have a long list of irish players to cover...we even do have a good few props coming through...so there is nothing wrong with the current system so there is no need to change it...what do u mean its working in wales?? your system is sell all your good players to english and french clubs...

Jeez you Northern hemisphere guys are hard to understand.

I clicked on this thread,expecting to read peoples thoughts on english and welsh rugby and all I find is stuff on Leinster,Munster,ulster,Foreign players in Ireland,Kidney,ROG.etc etc.

its the same with every thread...it always seems to come back to how kidney should be sacked somehow

I wouldnt be surprised if there were threads on how kidney should be sacked in fishing and darts sections.

haha ye...well we irish do love our darts and fishing so its definatley possible

and dont forget tip tackles.

I think a problem that both English clubs and Welsh clubs have is that they employ too many average foreigners

If we move away from the Irish angst/triumph and focus on the original post from Robbo, why do the NH sides buy in foreign talent?

From a French/English perspective I can see a viable reason - their leagues feature relegation and the club games continue on through the 6 nations/AI’s and RWC’s, so if your better players are gone for a good part of the season, it makes sense to buy in people who can fill in for the missing players – and who have no chance of being drafted themselves (unless they live in the country long enough and can then qualify for the national side).

So why buy in foreigners, why not allow up and coming talent to fill the posts? Well I don’t know the French domestic situation so I can’t comment, but I do know why the English sides have historically went down South for the replacement players, - the English system was just not producing the talented replacements that it needed. Now before people start wading in with population ratios – just tell me exactly when China or India won the RWC. Total population is not an indicator of how well a country plays rugby – if it was New Zealand would be nowhere. Hopefully the English have now got their act together and new talent is now being picked up and is given the opportunities – but it’s going to take a few years yet to see if this in fact the case.

So the imports are brought in to fill a gap during the international periods, and also to bolster up the squad strengths to ensure that they can compete at an adequate level in Europe and keep a reasonable position in their domestic league, ensuring HC qualification next year.

However I cannot see why the Irish/Welsh/Scottish Provinces/Regions buy in foreigners though. They don’t have to worry about relegation and for the most part are guaranteed HC qualification.

Of course all of these musings are ok, but then you look at my club (Falcons) and ask – Who exactly did you lose to international commitments over the last 6 nations? and of course the answer is almost none. So where are our decent English players – well they have all went down the motorway to bigger clubs, because we, as a ‘rich English club’ can’t compete with the rich French clubs and err..... the other rich English clubs so we have to bring in reasonably talented SH players – mainly from the Islands or second string NZ/Aussies as we can’t afford the bigger names.

I think we are in the same boat (although ours is actually sinking) as the clubs in the bottom half of the Aviva. No chance of HC qualification, the threat of relegation dangling in a Damoclesian manner, thus we can’t hang on to our good young players and have trouble getting in big names from elsewhere.

So in a nutshell, the English bring in foreigners as there is not enough English talent to feed the demands created by the Rugby Industry in England – although as we hope, the academies are now starting to bring in the talent. However, in most of England, the Roundball sport is king, so there are always going to be clubs that struggle to produce the talent, or if they produce it, have trouble hanging on to it, so then have to go shopping abroad.

The Welsh Regions play the same number of games as the English clubs. 12 team league+playoff, Europe, LV Cup. Irish and Scottish have a similar number but don't have the LV (which is generally used for fringe players or those returning from injury anyway). They also have the tightest route into the HEC in the PRO12. Also since the players are coming from a smaller number of teams the regions feel the impact of the internationals harder than the vast majority of English clubs. Add in the fact that lower funds means that the top Welsh players are 'encouraged' to move abroad for a very decent wage.

I'd say out of all the teams in the PRO12 the Welsh regions are in a similar position as the English clubs.

Regarding the foreigners in the English clubs. The average amount of foreign players per squad is 35%. If we assume squads of around 35 that means there are around 270 English players in the playing squads in England. A vast number of these just aren't that good. How would we benefit replacing average to good foreign players by guys even worse than some of the English players already in the squads?

Ireland sign significantly less Southern Hemisphere foreigners than the English and Welsh just much better ones.

You would be surprised to know there are way more foreigners with the 4 Welsh regions than the 4 Irish provinces, but some of them are awful - for example signing foreigners like Ben Castle - bizarre.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Ireland sign significantly less Southern Hemisphere foreigners than the English and Welsh just much better ones.

You would be surprised to know there are way more foreigners with the 4 Welsh regions than the 4 Irish provinces, but some of them are awful - for example signing foreigners like Ben Castle - bizarre.

Really? Are you sure you are taking into account Connacht's player and these supposed 'project players' ?

Of the top of my head and assuming we are staying within the limit, there should be about 20 'foreigners' in all 4 put together.

As of next season there will be a maximum of 12 foreigners at Ulster,Munster and Leinster, I can't remember what happening with regard to project players - but there was a post on here a month or two back listing all the foreigners at the Welsh regions and there was definitely more than 20.

Found it there may be more on top of this, but there's 30 NWQ players at the regions this season, and as I said most of these guy are journeymen at best.

Ben Blair
Tao Filise
Casey Lualala
Ma'ama Molitika
Dan Parks
Mike Patterson
Andries Pretorius
Xavier Rush
Paul Tito
Ryan Tyrrell
Joe Bedford
Ben Castle
Tonderai Chavhanga
Nigel Hall
Jamie Smith
Andy Tuilagi
Dan Way
Tom Willis
Joe Bearman
Tommy Bowe
Hanno Dirksen
Ken Dowding
Khan Fotouali'i
Chauncey O'Toole
George Stowers
Sean Lamont
Deacon Manu
Sione Timani
Viliame Iongi
Ben Morgan

Is Ben Morgan on that list - cannot see him.

Jeez that is a big list. I think Willis has gone btw. A few more will be departing from the Scarlets and Dragons. However the Scarlets are said to be in the market for a big 2nd row. I'd imagine the Ireland list is as big this year though, which was my point.

LondonTiger wrote:Is Ben Morgan on that list - cannot see him.

I think there's another couple English guys too by the name of Aaron Jarvis and Matt Gilbert. Morgan is another guy to depart next season, to be replaced by an academy product.

Not quite as big no - my point was there is a gulf in the quality of foreigners signed by the provinces compared to the Welsh regions, the provinces wouldnt go near most of the players on that list. Compare Ulster's foreigners (Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg,Pienaar and Payne) to some of the names on that list.

As I said above, Ireland's provinces sign less but much better foreigners than the English and Welsh teams.

English clubs do sign too many journeymen mainly because they are cheap and they will be available all season (unless they discover an English granny).

Quins, admirably are trying to buck this trend.

At Tigers the big money/big name signings have rarely been effective. Stransky, Kronfeld, Kafer, Mauger, Hougaard (and a French prop with 50+ caps whose name escapes me) were all signed on big money and really failed to deliver much at all. (Mauger was an inspiration around the club, but we never saw his best on the pitch).

Castro, Ayerza and Murphy are now on big money - and deservedly so, but came on small salaries.

Cheaper signings such as Freddie Tuilagi (and family), Dave Lougheed, Scottie Hamilton and most recently Steve Mafi have all been value for money.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Not quite as big no - my point was there is a gulf in the quality of foreigners signed by the provinces compared to the Welsh regions, the provinces wouldnt go near most of the players on that list. Compare Ulster's foreigners (Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg,Pienaar and Payne) to some of the names on that list.

As I said above, Ireland's provinces sign less but much better foreigners than the English and Welsh teams.

I wouldn't say much less but yeah, it is less. There are one or two more you missed I think, the Dragons and Ospreys have made some bizarre signings over the years. The Ospreys got an Aussie div. 2 outside half on their books for example. The Dragons ones, well you've listed most of them, and there is a few that have become Welsh qualified now. Although we have signed some good ones like Marty Holah, Justin Marshall, Regan King, Tondi Chavanga I agree there is a big gulf in quality. Irelands overseas players also play like they have been part of the Province all their life. Leinster and Munster attract some big names because players believe they can win a Heineken Cup with them I guess.

I don't get why Wales and England play the LV cup. Fans on here all hate it, it can't make them much money because no one wants to attend them and it adds another fixture to a busy schedule. Sorry if this is sort of off topic.

Since the RFU is supposed to be the wealthiest union in the world why doesn't it do more to help out its clubs? Raising the salary cap may well mean the poorer clubs go bust trying to keep up with the few bigger clubs who earn far more so why can't the union step in and fill the gap? Throw some money at the poorest clubs to help them to keep up with a higher salary bill. By having an involvement in funding clubs it should also have a bit more power and influence to effect what the clubs do.

As for the Welsh sides I'm horrified to see their players go abroad to play. Unfortunately I don't think that the WRU has enough money to remedy this situation.

On the Irish situation, from what I remember Connacht now have the same funding as the other provinces in Ireland. They have made an exception for Connacht though with regards signing of foreign player, they won't have to stick to the 4 + ! (1 meaning that player could at some point play for Ireland under the stupid residency rule). I don't know how many foreign players they're allowed but until they improve they are being given more leeway.

What I find interesting is that whatever the limit of foreign players the IRFU has, the provinces always used the quota. Even if the player signed ended up on the bench or never playing. If tomorrow it were a limit of ten foreign players then I believe that's how many each province would have. Not all buys have been wise though, unlike what people have written here there have been a fair few duds.

The French have already increased the salary cap that they brought in last year. I'll be interested to see how the quota of French trained players effects them over the next couple of years. It may change things for them.

Intotouch wrote:I don't get why Wales and England play the LV cup. Fans on here all hate it, it can't make them much money because no one wants to attend them and it adds another fixture to a busy schedule. Sorry if this is sort of off topic.

Extra money from more games. I certainly don't hate it. Most clubs use it to blood young/academy players (who often prove themselves and play in the premiership) or return injured players. It's good for this. Also it's the traditional English cup (like the FA cup), which the regions were invited to join.

Since the RFU is supposed to be the wealthiest union in the world why doesn't it do more to help out its clubs? Raising the salary cap may well mean the poorer clubs go bust trying to keep up with the few bigger clubs who earn far more so why can't the union step in and fill the gap? Throw some money at the poorest clubs to help them to keep up with a higher salary bill. By having an involvement in funding clubs it should also have a bit more power and influence to effect what the clubs do.

You mean like they already provide additional funding to clubs who field more English players? Since this was introduced we've seen a reduction in NEQ players (more pronounced in the bigger clubs). They would also provide compensation for EPS player time away if the clubs hadn't decided to smooth the payments. The clubs also retain the TV and sponsorship rights for the league (unlike the Regions and probably the Provinces which are Union controlled and form part of the funding to these teams).

Yes that's exactly what I mean.

It doesn't seem to be enough though. Not yet anyway. If the salary cap is really keeping English clubs uncompetitive in European competitions then it should of course be raised. Especially if the union is in a position to make up the difference in funding. Each country tries to use its strengths. If England's is a ton of native talent and cash this sounds like a serious combination of resources that should lead to great success.