Heineken Cup Qualifaction

Given the makeup of the quarter and semi-finals and there recent dismal showing should the English clubs have the number of clubs qualifying reduced or perhaps even enter combined teams in the Heinken to compete with Europe's Elite. We are told that repeatedly that England club sides failure is due to the the easy ride that the Rabo Direct clubs get in there domestic League, if that excuse does not work it is that the salary cap is not big enough. Thoughts please.

Some amount of wums cropping up.

What is Qualifaction anyway?

It would make my day if the English clubs pulled out of Europe completely. We've got no chance so what's the point?

HammerofThunor wrote:It would make my day if the English clubs pulled out of Europe completely. We've got no chance so what's the point?

Oh absolute nonsense. I'm willing to bet that a club like Leicester or Harlequins or Saracens could deliberately focus on the Heineken Cup, say next season, somehow manage to avoid relegation, avoid using any worthwhile players in the LV Cup, and make the knockout stages of the European Cup. It might mean not contesting the league title, just get a top 6 spot, but you can't have everything.

I'm curious, has any Premiership coach/club ever declared that publicly - that they want to go after European honours this season primarily?

They are not good enough its that simple they can make as many excuses as they want but that's what it boils down to simples

No you're trolling or you're incredibly ignorant tecphobe, give it up now mate it's getting boring. Your anti-englishness is blatantly obvious

Pot Hale wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It would make my day if the English clubs pulled out of Europe completely. We've got no chance so what's the point?

Oh absolute nonsense. I'm willing to bet that a club like Leicester or Harlequins or Saracens could deliberately focus on the Heineken Cup, say next season, somehow manage to avoid relegation, avoid using any worthwhile players in the LV Cup, and make the knockout stages of the European Cup. It might mean not contesting the league title, just get a top 6 spot, but you can't have everything.

I'm curious, has any Premiership coach/club ever declared that publicly - that they want to go after European honours this season primarily?

Of course they could but I don't want them to. I'm really not fussed about the European cup (and I wasn't fussed in 2007 when there were 3 English semi-finalists). If it was completed either before or after the league I'd prefer it. That's never going to happen because the TV companies wouldn't be able to get 5 months subscription for the 2 months of games.

I am different to HoT. I love the Heineken Cup (could not care less about the Amlin though). It is a true measure of the quality of sides - but one that Tigers have not stood up to at all well since the '09 final.

Yes I know this article is a complete WUM, but as I suggested on another post (and not surprisingly got no response from the supporters of the Pro 12 teams) play the Pool games in one six week block.

But of course, that would put everyone on a level playing field in terms of the demands placed on players, so the Irish Provinces and fans would never agree to it. When their players are asked to perform week in week out -as at the RWC -they can’t hack it because they are not used to doing it in their league.

I couldn’t give a rat’s rear about how teams qualify, and I don’t want to change the emphasis that Pro 12 teams place on the league or whatever. The fact that the whole of the Pro 12 could theoretically qualify for the HC doesn’t bother me either. But once the 24 teams are decided give them all an equal chance of a crack at the thing.

I'd definately like to see blocks placed in the season - so you have A HEC groups block, a 6N block (with a LV cup block running at the same time), a HEC QF block with the league being played in between - and it would probably improve the Irish team's performance as they'd have all their players together at the same time (rather than being away for internationals, recovering from the int games) Ireland have performed pretty well in recent years besides this year but as you well know that has no bearing on how the Irish provinces perform

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Yes I know this article is a complete WUM, but as I suggested on another post (and not surprisingly got no response from the supporters of the Pro 12 teams) play the Pool games in one six week block.

But of course, that would put everyone on a level playing field in terms of the demands placed on players, so the Irish Provinces and fans would never agree to it. When their players are asked to perform week in week out -as at the RWC -they can’t hack it because they are not used to doing it in their league.

I couldn’t give a rat’s rear about how teams qualify, and I don’t want to change the emphasis that Pro 12 teams place on the league or whatever. The fact that the whole of the Pro 12 could theoretically qualify for the HC doesn’t bother me either. But once the 24 teams are decided give them all an equal chance of a crack at the thing.

I'd totally support that as an alternative to the PR suggestion of effectively stopping some or all Italian/Scottish teams participating. I suspect that some PR teams would not welcome a six week block as well as some Pro12 teams. I still think adding in some bite/incentive to Pro12 league placings would be a good way to remove the lethargy that exists at the moment. League place determines your HC seeding, and a proportionate share of TV/Sponsor monies.

Smirnoffpriest

It's the way to go in order to be fair to all teams.

gowales wrote:No you're trolling or you're incredibly ignorant tecphobe, give it up now mate it's getting boring. Your anti-englishness is blatantly obvious

Im not trolling they simply arn't good enough you must be blind or stupid to not realise this. No English winner in 6 season. The only team that has challenged consistently in that period are the tigers. English club rugby is structured in such away as you have 4 or 5 clubs who are much of a muchness. I'm not ani-english in any way shape or form, the point im making is that we regularly here the same excuses thrown about for English clubs failure to compete in the Heinken cup and were told that reason for this is the pro-12's failure to adopt the English Model when the reverse in fact is true. As the league has bedded down English success in Europe has dryer up go look it up. The English Model is unsustainable without sugar daddy's and one of England's premier Clubs tetters on the brink of bankruptcy.

Pot Hale wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Yes I know this article is a complete WUM, but as I suggested on another post (and not surprisingly got no response from the supporters of the Pro 12 teams) play the Pool games in one six week block.

But of course, that would put everyone on a level playing field in terms of the demands placed on players, so the Irish Provinces and fans would never agree to it. When their players are asked to perform week in week out -as at the RWC -they can’t hack it because they are not used to doing it in their league.

I couldn’t give a rat’s rear about how teams qualify, and I don’t want to change the emphasis that Pro 12 teams place on the league or whatever. The fact that the whole of the Pro 12 could theoretically qualify for the HC doesn’t bother me either. But once the 24 teams are decided give them all an equal chance of a crack at the thing.

I'd totally support that as an alternative to the PR suggestion of effectively stopping some or all Italian/Scottish teams participating. I suspect that some PR teams would not welcome a six week block as well as some Pro12 teams. I still think adding in some bite/incentive to Pro12 league placings would be a good way to remove the lethargy that exists at the moment. League place determines your HC seeding, and a proportionate share of TV/Sponsor monies.

Not true, HC seedings are based on a team's record over the past four years HC (no matter what country they come from) - nothing to do where they finish in their domestic league

Current Erc Rankings

1 Leinster Rugby 31 11 7 11 2
2 Toulouse 31 7 11 4 9
3 Munster Rugby 29 4 7 7 11
4 Cardiff Blues 21 3 6 7 5
5 Biarritz 20 5 9 3 3
6Leicester Tigers 18 4 2 9 3
7Northampton 18 9 4 5 -
8Stade Francais 16 5 5 3 3
9 Perpignan 15 7 2 2 4
10 Clermont 14 4 5 2 3

So two Irish Two English one Welsh and Five French in the top 10. Out of the top ten rated teams in Europe 4 made the quarters. Leinster,Munster, Toulouse and Cardiff Blues.