Aviva Premiership Attendances

First topic message reminder :

I last looked at this after round 10 and will do a proper comparison at the end of the season, but discussions on Wasps problems made me consider revisiting this now. All numbers are taken from the Aviva Premiership site - which shows total attendances season to date of just under 1.4m (once the double counting of the Twickenham double header is removed).

Yet again we get confirmation that Sainst and Bath need bigger grounds (are you listening Northampton and Bath councils?)

Spoiler:

We have always tended to expand WR when it is getting too small.

Most recently was the development of the Caterpillar Stand. With the old Next Stand capacity was 16,000ish. A temporary stand would be put up at the club house end to raise that to 16800ish for sell-out games.

The temporary stand became semi-permanent and the number of sellouts increased. In the 2005/6 Season there were 13 matches sold out at Welford Road. Something had to happen. The development of the new stand has raised capacity to 24,000 and average attendances are close to 21,000.

This all seems a sensible way to do it develop the ground when demand indicates it is necessary. Tigers may have been a touch conservative.


If Chiefs are planning a 20k stadium I am a bit worried as that would look far too big for the current support base, while the catchment area may not be as big as some clubs.

If however it is a plan to extend capacity on a needs basis with 20k being the end goal - then may be OK.

If the Chiefs tickets are pricey than that may be putting off potential supporters LT. They may not have the fan base to fill 20k stadium now but once they have enough seats to fit in the current support plus spare then they can afford to reduce the less desireable seats in price and start to recruit fans who in the past may have not really been that fussed or put off by the price. That's a favourite Tigers ploy.

Expect more Tigers development before 2015 as well. New medical facilities, changing rooms, Crumbie stand with multi stroey car park and hotel/flats behind is all waiting for the green light from the club. Apparently securing finance has been tough in the recession but they aren't far off.

Carpe Diem wrote:Exeter have plans to upgrade to a 20,000 all seater stadium. They should get a few more in as a lot of my friends wives and girlfriends are put off going at the moment by the way the terraces are always packed (my favourite bit!). Ticket prices at SP are very expensive (cheapest standing about £20 odd) and the season ticket is £470 for a terrace. Can only see it going up as the stadium expands, can't decide whether it's a good thing for the club or not. Speculate to accumulate? How have other clubs dealt with expansion and do you guys think it's a risk worth us taking?

CD, at least we'll only be doing the expansion one section at a time - I believe that the SW Comms stand is next and will have a huge amphitheatre attached to it for large conferences. Plus season ticket prices are being held still for next season

LondonTiger wrote:We have always tended to expand WR when it is getting too small.

Most recently was the development of the Caterpillar Stand. With the old Next Stand capacity was 16,000ish. A temporary stand would be put up at the club house end to raise that to 16800ish for sell-out games.

The temporary stand became semi-permanent and the number of sellouts increased. In the 2005/6 Season there were 13 matches sold out at Welford Road. Something had to happen. The development of the new stand has raised capacity to 24,000 and average attendances are close to 21,000.

This all seems a sensible way to do it develop the ground when demand indicates it is necessary. Tigers may have been a touch conservative.


If Chiefs are planning a 20k stadium I am a bit worried as that would look far too big for the current support base, while the catchment area may not be as big as some clubs.

If however it is a plan to extend capacity on a needs basis with 20k being the end goal - then may be OK.

LT, it is very much as you have suggested - piecemeal expansion

What has the increase in Exeter support been since they joined the premership

That's what i thought As. Really excited about the club's expansion but i do get nervous about it at the same time!

Hope you guys are right about the ticket prices as i know that it puts a lot of people off going! As it is i have to ration myself to a certain number of games a season.

Brendan, I think we've pretty much held steady year-on-year

But a 3-fold increase over Championship attendances?

LondonTiger wrote:But a 3-fold increase over Championship attendances?

Could easily be, LT, I'd have to check (unless you've already done so?)

2009-2010 average for Chiefs was 4150. last year we averaged 9152 (back of fag packet) and this year about 8080.

Huge jump up then a bit of a slide back this year. Should be jammers this weekend!

So it was a bit of a first season jump as people wanted to see the big boys but they have kept alot of them to be fair

I think that Exeter are doing so well on and off the feild as they are only adding two or three players each year and not overstreching each year.

Last year Sky did a predication and put them at best eleven as they said they wouldn't stay up but they couldn't put 12. Thing is they are getting better and better as they don't spend the first 2 months getting use to eacfh other like maybe Sale who will be better next year.

I think that if Pirates were to make it up it might slow Exeters growth though that is years away

Interesting Sky were so negative as last weekend ESPN were rather positive with Austin Healey going as far as to predict a Tigers vs Chiefs play off final.

If I remember they said they hadn't got enough good players in ie the premership is so much higher even the worse team is miles better then the Exeter.

The little their wage bill came to.

The fact that Leeds and Newcastle had been in a fight before.

Poor crowds towards the end of the league as the interest died down.

I also think that I goes back to so many sports of "oh the top is so high above everything else its only yoyo clubs that go up and down aka leeds and Worecter and Bristol

I think Exeter have shown everyone that last year was not a flash in the pan and that HC is expected not a prize like it is for Glaws, Bath, LI even if they dont get it each year

Brendan wrote:So it was a bit of a first season jump as people wanted to see the big boys but they have kept alot of them to be fair

I think that Exeter are doing so well on and off the feild as they are only adding two or three players each year and not overstreching each year.

Last year Sky did a predication and put them at best eleven as they said they wouldn't stay up but they couldn't put 12. Thing is they are getting better and better as they don't spend the first 2 months getting use to eacfh other like maybe Sale who will be better next year.

I think that if Pirates were to make it up it might slow Exeters growth though that is years away

Brendan, that is true although our Cornish brethren seem farther away than ever about reaching agreement over the new stadium

Just on sky it was the first year they were up ie last year

I do think If they made it up the derbies would be packed on both sides

Brendan wrote:If I remember they said they hadn't got enough good players in ie the premership is so much higher even the worse team is miles better then the Exeter.

The little their wage bill came to.

The fact that Leeds and Newcastle had been in a fight before.

Poor crowds towards the end of the league as the interest died down.

I also think that I goes back to so many sports of "oh the top is so high above everything else its only yoyo clubs that go up and down aka leeds and Worecter and Bristol

I think Exeter have shown everyone that last year was not a flash in the pan and that HC is expected not a prize like it is for Glaws, Bath, LI even if they dont get it each year

Brendan, I have heard that bandied about a lot as a reason for Exe suffering second season syndrome, Sky would not have been the only ones by a longshot. Interestingly, roughly two thirds or more of a typical starting XXIII will be players that brought the club up from the Championship

Brendan wrote:I do think If they made it up the derbies would be packed on both sides

Oh aye, think you're absolutely right there

The way the Pirates are going they'll be ground sharing with us!

To be fair to Sky (and that was their prediction for 2010/11 season), the quality of the Play-off final with Bristol was pretty shocking.

However the team we saw in 2010/11 was some way ahead of that showing. And this year they have gone from strength to strength.

Jsut need to beat Saints and the second act of the fairy tale would be complete.

LondonTiger wrote:To be fair to Sky (and that was their prediction for 2010/11 season), the quality of the Play-off final with Bristol was pretty shocking.

However the team we saw in 2010/11 was some way ahead of that showing. And this year they have gone from strength to strength.

Jsut need to beat Saints and the second act of the fairy tale would be complete.

LT, true, the quality of the two legs of the championship may not have been top drawer, but the conditions certainly didn't help nor the tension in the occasion. Remember that Bris had beaten us twice already that season, but Baxter was canny enough to alter our strength and conditioning programme and to alter training times (to the evenings) for example, to specifically deal with the finals, and it all paid off - a sign of, if nothing else, the meticulous planning that we would take into the premiership

I also think that Exeter's Management is a big reason why they are doing so well they play to their strenghts like all good teams and not afraid of what the opposition would do.

I think that is why Newcastle do so well in the last mosnth or so of eah year casue they have nothing to lose but spend the rest of t he t ime being afraid to lose

On Exeter and wor how many of their players were chamionship players

In the last match, 11 of the starting XV played for Exe in the Championship, with 2 others signed from Championship clubs after promotion. Only Mieres and Comacho are non-championship newcomers, plus, on the bench, Muldowney, White and Naqelevuki - Mitchell, Shoemark, Tatupu and Short (recently retired) were injured but would have been in contention.

The best XXlll regardless of injury would probably have 15 Championship players.

so did Exeter buy up the best championship players ar were they lucky to have ggod players as it seems unreal that they can compete to their level with most of their championship players.

Are others seeing this and is that why there seems to be more championship players coming through as they must be alot cheaper

Brendan wrote:so did Exeter buy up the best championship players ar were they lucky to have ggod players as it seems unreal that they can compete to their level with most of their championship players.

Are others seeing this and is that why there seems to be more championship players coming through as they must be alot cheaper

Mostly they were playing for Exe in the Championship winning season, James Phillips (now an occasional bench player) and Luke Arscott (starting XV) aside and yes, others may be recruiting from the championship more than they have in the past

We just rock Brendan, don't try and explain it just enjoy the ride baby!!

I think it is great and would love to see Connacht do the same which I think they are starting to do. I wish that leeds and bristol and wors and Newcsstle could learn it so that the top six in the Championship would hold thier own in the Aviva.

I think that it is good that for a couple of seasons the promoted team hasn't been fighting it out to stay up. It also allows for better player development.

Wat do ye think if ye did a s15 type thing in a couple of years if the standard keeps rising with all theyouth coming through of combining the prem and chamionship and play each other once. Top six to play-offs and bottom six to play-offs that would have 12 teams involved so no real dead rubbers.

Also you would have HC, Amlin and B&I cups to play for also

Even though your teams struggled this year I thik that England has the players to make up a strong prem and chamionship.

It would also allow the big teams to rest their big players more agaisnt the lower teams and make the games compeditive

I think it will be scary as to the numbers England will be producing in the ten years and they will all need homes.

How many English play outside england must nearly be another really good team

Ian Balshaw, that is all.

Brendan wrote:I think it is great and would love to see Connacht do the same which I think they are starting to do. I wish that leeds and bristol and wors and Newcsstle could learn it so that the top six in the Championship would hold thier own in the Aviva.

I think that it is good that for a couple of seasons the promoted team hasn't been fighting it out to stay up. It also allows for better player development.

Wat do ye think if ye did a s15 type thing in a couple of years if the standard keeps rising with all theyouth coming through of combining the prem and chamionship and play each other once. Top six to play-offs and bottom six to play-offs that would have 12 teams involved so no real dead rubbers.

Also you would have HC, Amlin and B&I cups to play for also

Commercially, I don't think a combined league would work. Travelling Prem sides would probably fill Championship venues, but only if they put a decent squad out. However, Premiership ground would struggle to keep attendances up. Fans would probably turn out for clubs like Bristol and the Pirates, and local derbies might draw in the crowds (Quins would probably see full houses for London Welsh and Esher, for instance), but at least 1/3 of the games in a season would draw a much smaller crowd.

I think the move would also accelerate the separation of the league into a small group of Haves and a much larger group of Have Nots. The current model works for the moment - I think the championship teams would need to be much closer in terms of squads and financials for it to be sensible to combine the leagues - which also implies that the Premiership sides would all need to move towards sustainability.

I agree it is working but tv money men I think in a five to ten years will see more teams as more money and it could go like s15 so the only way is to increase teams and that will cause it having to be one game per team for player welfare

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, any idea how it works for NI based Ulster players? Do they come under Irish or UK tax system? As in the tax back the players get at retirement (or is this just IRFU payments)? Someone else said something about no VAT on tickets.

Thunor,
That is the one major problem in IRFU-guided player movement between the provinces. Ulster lose out because they are under the UK tax-system. Players will gladly go from Ulster to Leinster, Connacht or Munster. The other way round happens very rarely.

It is nothing to do with the set up, bias, religion, yada yada (some people actually believe that). It is to do with shekels.

Ulster will have a World Class setup (from Academy up) to match the best soon. I think they fully deserve all the success that brings them. They are at a distinct disadvantage and bringing in WC players to bridge that gap, until their Academy procudes the goods to replace them (it is already) is fine by me.

How many English play outside england must nearly be another really good team

Well, by next season:
1.Sheridan
2.?
3.?
4.Shaw
5.Kennedy
6.M Lund
7.S Armitage
8.Narraway
9.?
10.Wilkinson
11.Balshaw
12.Geraghty
13.G Armitage
14.Sackey
15.D Armitage

Gibson wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, any idea how it works for NI based Ulster players? Do they come under Irish or UK tax system? As in the tax back the players get at retirement (or is this just IRFU payments)? Someone else said something about no VAT on tickets.

Thunor,
That is the one major problem in IRFU-guided player movement between the provinces. Ulster lose out because they are under the UK tax-system. Players will gladly go from Ulster to Leinster, Connacht or Munster. The other way round happens very rarely.

It is nothing to do with the set up, bias, religion, yada yada (some people actually believe that). It is to do with shekels.

Ulster will have a World Class setup (from Academy up) to match the best soon. I think they fully deserve all the success that brings them. They are at a distinct disadvantage and bringing in WC players to bridge that gap, until their Academy procudes the goods to replace them (it is already) is fine by me.

I have never understood why the IRFU haven't set up Ulster Rugby in Ireland aswell and base it in one of the three counties.
That way they could avail of the tax breaks and it would only be a shell company but it would still work .

I think El Abd is on his way back.

The team could be coached by Alex King (Clermont)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

How many English play outside england must nearly be another really good team

Well, by next season:
1.Sheridan
2.?
3.Freshwater (really a loosehead but I couldn't think of a tighthead)
4.Shaw
5.Kennedy
6.El Abd
7.S Armitage
8.?
9.?
10.Wilkinson
11.Balshaw
12.Geraghty
13.G Armitage
14.Sackey
15.D Armitage

freshwater is retiring, el abd leaving toulon but you could also add Jamie Noon and Magnus Lund ...

I'd forgotten about Magnus Lund, I'd also managed to largely forget about Noon and the fact he was ever allowed to be more than a waterboy for England. Any idea where El Abd is heading to? Doesn't suprise me that Perry Freshwater is retiring he must be nearly 40 now and that's a long time to be playing professional rugby.

Isn't Narraway moving to France?

Good call on Naraway Chequered, now we just need a hooker, tighthead and scrum half.

I hear El Abd was returning to Bristol - if they win the play-offs

Brendan wrote:

Gibson wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, any idea how it works for NI based Ulster players? Do they come under Irish or UK tax system? As in the tax back the players get at retirement (or is this just IRFU payments)? Someone else said something about no VAT on tickets.

Thunor,
That is the one major problem in IRFU-guided player movement between the provinces. Ulster lose out because they are under the UK tax-system. Players will gladly go from Ulster to Leinster, Connacht or Munster. The other way round happens very rarely.

It is nothing to do with the set up, bias, religion, yada yada (some people actually believe that). It is to do with shekels.

Ulster will have a World Class setup (from Academy up) to match the best soon. I think they fully deserve all the success that brings them. They are at a distinct disadvantage and bringing in WC players to bridge that gap, until their Academy procudes the goods to replace them (it is already) is fine by me.

I have never understood why the IRFU haven't set up Ulster Rugby in Ireland aswell and base it in one of the three counties.
That way they could avail of the tax breaks and it would only be a shell company but it would still work .

This has been looked into at great length.

However as Ravenhill is in the north there is no way round it.
If we could we would

I hear El Abd was returning to Bristol - if they win the play-offs

Joining Grindal in Bristol. Makes sense but I'm a touch suprised that no one slightly bigger has shown any interest in him.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Brendan wrote:

Gibson wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Gibson, any idea how it works for NI based Ulster players? Do they come under Irish or UK tax system? As in the tax back the players get at retirement (or is this just IRFU payments)? Someone else said something about no VAT on tickets.

Thunor,
That is the one major problem in IRFU-guided player movement between the provinces. Ulster lose out because they are under the UK tax-system. Players will gladly go from Ulster to Leinster, Connacht or Munster. The other way round happens very rarely.

It is nothing to do with the set up, bias, religion, yada yada (some people actually believe that). It is to do with shekels.

Ulster will have a World Class setup (from Academy up) to match the best soon. I think they fully deserve all the success that brings them. They are at a distinct disadvantage and bringing in WC players to bridge that gap, until their Academy procudes the goods to replace them (it is already) is fine by me.

I have never understood why the IRFU haven't set up Ulster Rugby in Ireland aswell and base it in one of the three counties.
That way they could avail of the tax breaks and it would only be a shell company but it would still work .

This has been looked into at great length.

However as Ravenhill is in the north there is no way round it.
If we could we would

I am only a learning accountant but here is my take

You set up a company called Ulster Rugby or Ravin Rascals or whatever

They employ all the players and put it in Bowes house or where ever.

Ulster Rugby NI then rent the service of these players from the Rep company.

That should work and as it intercountry no VAT on services

Players work in the North
They live in the North

No way they would get away with it

Otherwise every company in the World could set up in the Caymen Islands and do the same thing. No one pays income tax anywhere in the World

You pay tax in the country that you earn it. so if you earn money in ireland you have to pay it in ireland.

To get around the Employment they can train once a week in the south. There are many boarder county companies that would work alot in the other.

Anyway they would be in Ireland working atleast 3 days a year for the inpros

You pay tax in the country that you earn it. so if you earn money in ireland you have to pay it in ireland

In theory yes but then the players living in the north would then be examined for 'foreign earnings' and still not get the Irish tax break as they aren't living in the Republic as Irish citizens. You'd have to move the club's HQ and all the players into the Republic counties of Ireland to gain the tax benefits you'd want and even then there'd be plenty of accountant bills springing up for the opening of a new Irish company and the transfer of assets from the UK registered company etc etc.

we have a tax agreement so they would still pay the same tax but would still be due the rebate on the irish tax which is what it is all about.

I also don't think it would be seen to be right to move it from Belfast as it would be Dublin interferring.

I am sure there is a reason as to why it hasn't been done but if it was wasnted it could be done in a week no problem esp as we have the tax treaty

Its all to do with the De Beers Consolidated Mines case. (I'm a trainee accountant as well!!) A company is tax resident where ever its central management and planning takes place. So you can set the company up down south but if Humps and the rest of the lads are still making the decisions in Belfast its all taxable up north.

Ulster Rugby could re-locate as a business to the Republic and gain various corporation tax benefits.

The players however would be deemed by HMRC to be earning their wages in the UK as their place of work would be deemed to be Ravenhill.

to get around that you employe a someone in an office in the south and have conference calls. There are loads of shell companys in the IFSC in Dublin where you have a person in an office just to be a company but does nothing and all decisions are made else where

I was talking of renting the players to Ulster rather then move it all