The Future of Rugby - Discussion

First topic message reminder :

Rugby Union is becoming more and more influenced by rugby league and has already visibly changed from the game that we know of ten -twenty years ago.

Eventually the two codes could re-merge...Discus...

Meh, NFL takes too long and is too predictable. It's funny that you like it Mystiroakey, because I view it as very similar to a slower, more specialised version of League, where you can pass forward. The lack of players using laterals to score every single play also frustrates me

oh its not that i dont like league...not my point really

andyi wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:I don't think league and union will successfully merge anyway. I can see RL in the north of England continuing its decline (there's plenty of cash-strapped clubs up there) to a point where it is almost amateur, but the disdain for the "southern toff's game" is too ingrained in the fans to turn around.

Meanwhile RL in Australia is currently in a much better state, and doesn't need RU right now - however it has it's eyes on the threat from AFL's expansion out of Melbourne. If AFL was threatening to swamp both rugby codes there might be a joinup, but it would involve RL joining up with RU to piggy-back on the international competition aspect that AFL lacks (and which is limited in RL). There would once again have to be a lot of dead bodies gone over first - RU in Sydney (RL's heartland) is again the preserve of wealthy private schoolboys.

I'd say club union in the north of England is in a worst state of decline!

Newcastle will probably finish bottom of the AP (but may be saved from Relegation by the fact that only 3 clubs in the 2nd Tier are eligible to be promoted and only Bristol are left of those 3)
Sale wont qualify for the HC despite being the "big" northern team.
Leeds are marooned in the 2nd Tier with crowds of not much over 2K

The combined average crowds of the 5 northern teams in the top 2 tiers of English RU are under 18K.
RU is a participation sport in the North of England. As a spectator sport it's virtually irrelevant!

We are in this position due to poor managerial appointments and a poor chairman. This has been changed now. We have a serious academy, and a very powerful list of former players....which shows we can attract the best.

We'll be back and England will be the better for it.....

aucklandlaurie wrote: To name just a few with a league background who have made a huge contribution to rugby union:
Brad thorn, Tana Umanga,Piri Weepu,Jerome Kaino,Jonah Lomu.
And its not just to New zealand rugby;Shawn Edwards,Les Kiss.
The list is endless.

Auckland....when did the ones ive put in bold play league...? I wasnt aware of that...

Good Morning folks you have been busy.

Geordiefalcon:
Jerome kaino played as a teenager for all his formative years for the Papakura Sea egles, then when he went to Papakura High he made the first xv (rugby) and the rest is history.
Jonah Lomu;
Similar to Kaino,Jonah played all his formative years for the Otara Scorpions then all of a sudden he got a scholarship out to Wesley college,next thing hes in the first xv (rugby) the rest is history.
Tana Umaga;
Well theres no other way for me to say this but he was a Junior Kiwi.before going to rugby union.

But on a similar vein Australians and New Zealanders see the beauty in rugby league and others dont,Rugby union can bene fit immensely from the skill sets which young rugby league players have to over learn to the point where they execute them in a game sub conciously.Many kids in Auckland drift in and out of either code and I believe it benefits them in the long run.

There is a little rugby League club,called the Te Atatu Roosters in the middle of west Auckland and I know of some young teenagers that played for the club and learnt and refined there basic skills there to just name some of them,Robie and Henry Paul,Shontayne Hape and a young James O'Connor.and thats not mentioning any that played for New Zealand.

Linebreaker mentioned Micheal O'Connor who has been involved in both codes immensely,not only as a Kangaroo and a Wallaby.but the last I saw of him he was coaching the Aussie 7s team.and as for Ricky Stuart I always maintanied that he was a better Rugby union half back than a League player.playing both codes is such a bonus.

However,I've never fully understand the defense contribution that Les Kiss makes to the Irish rugby team,as I could name a number of players from his old North Sydney team that I would have thought carried more expertise on defense than Kiss.

Rugby Union needs rugby League.

yeah like it needs a square ball

Thats a bit of a pity Mystir,because I get the feeling that you genuinely believe it.

Biltong

I can remember a big blonde haired South African that used to play for the Cronulla Sutherland Sharks in the then NRL (mid 90s),and if I remember rightly he was a former Springbok.I think his surname was Strauss.Linebreaker will remember the guy.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Thats a bit of a pity Mystir,because I get the feeling that you genuinely believe it.

Laurie the only Strauss I know of, is Tiaan Strauss the eighthman, I know he played union for Australia.

Excellant work biltong,thats the guy. he was a real profesional,he worked real hard at league.

The only other guy from over your way that I can think of is the Saffey .

Never knew that, I remember many South africans weren't very impressed with him when he left, I guess it was because Kitch Christie didn't make him part of the 95' world cup squad.

That's the only reason I can think of.

My mind is that unfortunate the trend in rugby is driven by trend in the world and not by the manager of the game in IRB.

Before once there was different style from the nation. Now the player more experience the different ways and moving around to play by the club in north and south hemispheres and change the ownership of the passport so much.

These trend in homogenise the game are more vibrant impacting than the plan by the world leaders because they all too interested in make a money and not about guide the game to better place.

So the season keep increasing and more separation the club and the country. In that conflict. Second trend more the professional rules to change the game to decrease the tackle and fouls and because more fitness and bigger to the players. More money changing pocket because the result mean more scrutany on referee and so more and more on the camera slow motion and replay.

There is not a real leaders standing out and making a direction.

aucklandlaurie wrote: However,I've never fully understand the defense contribution that Les Kiss makes to the Irish rugby team,as I could name a number of players from his old North Sydney team that I would have thought carried more expertise on defense than Kiss.

Laurie - on that point, isn't Mark Graham involved in Union now or have I read wrongly somewhere? I'm sure he went across after being shafted by his old mate Lowey at the Warriors

Chewed Mintie
Last i heard of Mark was that he was coaching Gladstone in the Queensland cup,but good spotting as that was one of the players in my mind when I made the remark about Kiss.

Mintie
There was a season way back in the early 2000s when Mark Graham was the defensive coach for the Auckland Blues.

The future of Rugby in the SH at least,has been dominated this year in the Super15.By the way the directives being trialled in the SH including Refs reporting on incidents post match.I have been impressed by the growing number
of penalties being awarded and kicked.The 2 most Successful sides Stormers and Chiefs,have the best defences in the Comp.I have further been impressed by the narrowness of the margins of victory.There have been few Blowouts,more Cards,MANY more penalties especially harsh on the tip tackle.
The Bulls won by kicking 8 Penalties,2 tries,2 conversions and a drop,versus Brumbies who scored 5 tries converted only 3 of them and one penalty at least they picked up two bonus points.Needless to say the Bulls kicker was Morne Steyn,stats since 2002 indicate a gradual decrease in Tries scored and increase in Penalties.SA sides will start to dominate both the 4Ns and Super Comps because they have such a good defensive pattern and greatgoalkickers.
Over the years that pattern has seen more matches won than by running Rugby THAT is the Future of Rugby.

Exactly emack. Add to that some whistle happy refs and we're in for some boring rugby in the coming years.

I'm just glad the Chiefs won their match versus the Sahrks; they're very exciting to watch when they get going. The Brumbies were unlucky to have the ref allow that knock-on try to the Bulls. Things haven't really changed in the Republic have they?
There's always some dodgy undercurrent of suspicion lingering there.

The commentators also conveniently seem to ignore the forward passes and infringements from the home sides. Makes it very difficult still for touring sides (and non-SA fans) to get a fair go I feel. Something needs to be done.

Linebreaker wrote:
The commentators also conveniently seem to ignore the forward passes and infringements from the home sides. Makes it very difficult still for touring sides (and non-SA fans) to get a fair go I feel. Something needs to be done.

And you are worried about the commentators. I take a biased commentator over the current law interpretations any day.

All I'm saying it can add fuel to the fire, BB. Especially when they then praise the ref for a 'good decision' afterwards.

I love the head-banging icon btw... better that than throwing a large dinner plate at a big screen TV

I actually didn't listen to the Bulls vs Brumbies commentary, I had the tv on silence and was practicing my own renditions of Imagine, Piano man and Streets of London.

So I missed all of it.

Might do the same next time but I do like to hear the crowd noise.

You still have the get togethers with your musical buddies or just solo this time?

We got rid of the two parttimers, they were just wasting our time, so now we are back to two acoustic guitars, works better and we actually get together twice a week now, tuesday evenings for two hours and then friday afternoon for 4 hours.

This friday we worked our way through 25 songs, it was brilliant.

Next month will be exactly a year since I got out of hospital and started playing.

25 songs. That's great.... have you got a name for your act?

What were you in hospital for?

Our first song we did was Stand by me. apparently it has been recorded 401 times, so we are Group 401.

My hospital saga is a long story, neeldes to say it was 7 months of hell.

Good name that. Group 401.

Hope it wasn't a bike accident or a mugging?

No illness, It started with gallstones that took too long to be diagnosed and then casued absesses on my liver, I literally didn't eat anything for 7 months.

January last year, they told me to get my Will ready.

Shiit! You put weight back on though? I had stones too... back in '99 thought I was dying. Excruciating pain. Doctor said to my ex-wife at the time "Is he always this dramatic?" Could have done you-know-what to the guy - he didn't diagnose it even. I had to go to Emergency and they eventually worked it out.

Yeah, problem is the weight comes back more than what you lost. But i was so weak after the illness I ate anything I could just to get some strength back.

I lost virtually all my muscle mass. I used to curl 24kg in the gym, my arms were 45CM, nice size, they now about 35 cm.

I first have to go for an hernia operation before I can gym again, they cut me open from chest to navel, and after the membrane tore open all the way, so I currently wear a hernia belt and may not train on any heavy equipment.

Jeez... that rules out your return to the golden oldies rugby, doesn't it?

I also made a mess of my leg playing soccer (only a few years back) Dr said it was one of the worst multiple fractures he'd seen. Took months of rehab. Even now it's still sore... nerves just coming back down one side.

That's why I sometimes cringe seeing all the pro players injure themselves.... their recovery times always amaze me but they are much younger than I was when I did my damage.

Bet your leg hurts more in those cold winter mornings, doesn't it?

Acoustic Guitars NOW ,you`re talking I am[was a ]Hi-fi nut and love the instrument.I love Music but dislike the idea of having labels stuck on a genre of Music.Most things like TheBlues,or Jazz,or Country are very broad churches.I discuss this with friends for hours.
I do not currently watch Super Rugby,only go by reports so can`t discuss individual matches.I often watch Rugby with the sound off then I can make my own decisions.NOT be influenced by biased ex-players on huge salaries second guessing officials.With all the advantages of instant replays,the Ref calls it as he see`s it thats how it should be.
As to the match concerned going by the reports,the Bulls were never really in trouble.BUT to concede 5 tries at Home,at Altitude and win by just 2 points is plain sloppy.
Bok Coach won`t be impressed by that,as too winning Rugby being BORING,well i`ve watched it all my life.The RWC Final was incredible for meTHE best one i`ve seen.BOTH sides risked little,and for me the right side won JUST but boring it was`nt.
Arguably THE best two touring sides I watched was the 1960-1 Boks,and 1963-4 AllBlacks.They were`nt pretty to watch BUT they were very effective,when Don Clarke.THE keystone of 55metre Rugby post injury lost his goal kicking skills.The AB`s had to find other ways to win I was in the crowd in his last but one game.His Goal kicks were nearer the Corner Flag than the goal.BUT that was a GREAT side they found other ways to win.In cedentally after the Barbarians match that year.THE BOOT was back to his ruthless best je kicked Every thing in 1964.

biltongbek wrote:Bet your leg hurts more in those cold winter mornings, doesn't it?

Yeah, but my pain threshold is quite high so when I feel sore walking up a steep hill... I just try to power up more. Feels good, sort of.
I don't take painkillers or anything. Every now and then I'll bang it on some furniture but the titanium and bolts takes the load!

As far as commentators go I enjoy, Justin Marshall a lot, I think he is by far the best, TJ the guy with him isn't bad, I enjoy Bobby skinstad, although he can be a bt Biased, I don't like Joel Stransky, and I enjoy Rod Kafe, he has a wicked sense of humor.

The best two all time Commentators were Bill McClaren and Gerhard Viviers, you guys will most likely never have heard him, but he was brilliant at describing the game and lived for his rugby, sadly they are both commentating rugby in heaven now, Bill in english and Gerhard in Afrikaans, I feel sorry for those poor buggars up there who doesn't understand Afrikaans or english.

Linebreaker wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Bet your leg hurts more in those cold winter mornings, doesn't it?

Yeah, but my pain threshold is quite high so when I feel sore walking up a steep hill... I just try to power up more. Feels good, sort of.
I don't take painkillers or anything. Every now and then I'll bang it on some furniture but the titanium and bolts takes the load!

Talking about baning something, have you ever kicked your little toe into furniture so that it stands at a right angle to your foot?

I think for top on my list as far as "little" accidents go, that is one of the most excrucating two minutes of pain one can endure, for those few moments you have no breath to scream swear or do anything but just sit in a pathetic heap of pain.

Yep, there's nothing you can do... after it's just happened.

Years ago I foolishly but a beer glass on the floor near the sofa. When I got up, I brought my left foot across it and severed my achilles. Funny thing was it didn't hurt for a few seconds. Then the blood arrived. I'd never seen such a deep red colour like that. It was like I'd spilled a glass of claret all over the floor. I put a band-aid on it at first but then decided I better go to the surgery where they stitched it up. All OK now... just the faintest of sensations every now and then.

Yep, no wonder our bodies keep reminding us we are not youngsters anymore.

I turn 48 this year and apart from being a crock, I feel 30 years old. Most people as they get older say " Of all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most" in my case it is " my youth"

We're similar vintage. I'm 46 and feel about 27. Have taken a bit of punishment over the years but still got it.... I hope.

I turned 69 a few days ago,the future ofRugby lies in the past 1928,1949,1956,NZ vBok tours were won or drawn by Goal kickers.1959Lions tour and probably 1976 Bok tour by lack of kickers.I am old enough to remember Rugby League pre 4 tackle Law.One side kicked off,the other side
kept it till they scored or half time .I was bought up in the age of reality the
advantage line ran thru the middle of the Lineout.Defending backs lay flat to it,man for man marking plus the forwards cover defending.Same points for try and Penalty/Drop [just].Wings threw the ballin at Lineouts and froze on the wing the rest of the game.

Happy Birthday, emack.

You are a font of knowledge on the game and it's always great to read your detailed posts.
You know what you're talking about... that's for sure!