The Titanic and my best wishes to Ulster.

First topic message reminder :

The media have gone into overdrive on the tragedy a hundred years ago.

Much of this is mawkish and in the case of the Belfast Titanic Museum, cynical commercialism.

But at the root of it the Harland and Wolff was a deeply sectarian organisation which was in no way the last reason for the problems in northern Ireland in the 20th century.

That is why I want Ulster to do well. A side which spans the both the divide and the Irish nations to win the HEC in this centenary year would be welcome by pretty much every neutral (I hope).

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The Titanic and my best wishes to Ulster.

Post by Portnoy on Sun 15 Apr - 18:46
First topic message reminder :

The media have gone into overdrive on the tragedy a hundred years ago.

Much of this is mawkish and in the case of the Belfast Titanic Museum, cynical commercialism.

But at the root of it the Harland and Wolff was a deeply sectarian organisation which was in no way the last reason for the problems in northern Ireland in the 20th century.

That is why I want Ulster to do well. A side which spans the both the divide and the Irish nations to win the HEC in this centenary year would be welcome by pretty much every neutral (I hope).


Portnoy

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Error... error... BS overload...... system crashing...

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Clive - I wonder if that might change now. QFs last year, SFs (at least) this year - if you were languishing at the end of a long queue elsewhere, might Ulster not be more attractive than before? Enough even to overcome the lack of a tax break?

I don't think young lads of 22/23 are thinking about tax back when at that stage of their careers. Rhys Ruddock could have moved to Munster, but he wanted to stay with Leinster, so the tax back was irrelevant to him. That young lad, Sean Dougal who was in the Ulster academy and is now with Rotherham - he said in an interview that he wanted to learn from David Wallace.

One of the strengths of rugby in Ireland is the players and supporters loyalty to their province of birth. when you want to keep players like Ferris, POC, everyone is very happy - it works both ways though when you are eyeing someone up and they want to play for their home province.

Only solution is to develop your own players !

Well, for a start, I would ask why are you thinking about young fellas of 22/23? Are they the only ones not getting provincial game time? At what age did Coughlan break through? Besides which, I'd say that young lads of 22/23 are, in fact, thinking about their long-term career. Aren't there IRFU/provincial personnel whose entire job is to offer them advice about their future? Of course players want to play for their provinces, but it's also important to them that they play. Sometimes that doesn't happen, because they are in teams where their position is already flush with talent. They can get more first team time when going to another province. In such situations, the tax break (or lack thereof, in Ulster) is an issue.

I don't understand your point about Sean Dougall at all. He was let go from the Ulster Academy and, after his time in England, moved to somewhere where he would get to take advantage of the tax break. (Obviously that is not why he moved there, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in mentioning him.)

As for Ruddock, the tax back is definitively not an issue because he'll get tax back playing for Munster or Leinster, no?

I know you are loath to countenance the idea that any other province has any aspect of professionalism tougher than Munster, but it is a fact that Ulster have a disincentive there.

Coughlan didn't get a professional contract with Munster until he was about 26. He was playing AIL and working as an accountant (I think) in Cork. All the player have agents now who advise them on career moves. Donncha Ryan (who was a late starter to rugby at 18), turned down a Munster contract to do a Masters. Traditionally, Munster players who were looking for gametime moved to Connacht or Leinster because they were nearer to home, family etc. and they didn't have to move country. Mick O'Driscoll headed off to France for 2 years and didn't worry about his tax incentive. If Frankie Sheahan who was retiring from Munster was heading to France at the end of his career but then had to retire because of his injury problems.

No use blaming the tax incentive in the ROI for Ulster not being able to attract good young players that may be surplus to requirements, Ruddock wasn't attracted to Munster for gametime and tax incentive. He wants to fight it out in Leinster and I admire him for taking up that considerable challenge.

My point about Dougal is that he has taken a 1 year contract from Munster (when he probably could have got a better one in England) mainly because (apart from it being an Irish club), he wants to play/train with David Wallace. Tax incentives hasn't entered his head yet. He just wants a career. Same way that Reddan went to Wasps, Ross to Quins, Murphy x 2 to Leicester there thinking of having a rugby career first.

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who approached who about singing where? Really?

The point was made that Muller & Pienaar are Ulster's greatest signings - my point is that BJ Botha was Ulster's most significant signing because he was the one that put Ulster on the player recruitment map and more than likely all three would be at Sarries now if he hadn't come to Ulster in the first place. Don't forget as well that Ulster had lost Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Neil Best etc. around that time, so Ulster would not have been an attractive place to go.

Sin we get it sir, Ulsters most significant signing is now a Munster man, who in turn was signed by an ex-Leinster man!

We will expect to see an influx of top Saffers at Munster very soon then...

roddersm wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I doubt we up here in the north are the best placed to say whether that would be an issue for many young southerners.

But it doesn't seem to be an issue the other way around...

That makes sense - nonetheless from your not best placed position, would you think it's an issue? Has there really been that many northern Protestant/British-oriented players playing down south?

There's been quite a few moving from Ulster to Connacht in recent seasons.

Tommy Bowe doesn't have an issue playing for Ulster.

There's no getting away from the fact that there are logistical issues involved in moving from Leinster/Munster to Ulster that aren't involved in moving to each other, such as changes to tax, currency, politics, education, healthcare etc. but without speaking to the players involved it is just making assumptions as to why they haven't joined.

I'd love to see more quality players move up here from the South.

Ulster players going to Connacht is fairly recent. Generally, Ulster player have headed to England. I think Leinster wanted Paddy Wallace years ago, but the IRFU wouldn't let him move (Paddy went to college in Dublin I think).

Tommy Bowe grew up in Ulster, went to school & college in NI, so is well used to it and his family are in Ulster. A bit different for someone moving there I think. Cillian Willis was there for a season I think as was the prop Ronan McCormack. I remember reading an interview with him where he said he found it quite a change from Dublin. Said he found all the flags and stuff 'different.' and difficult to get used to.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who approached who about singing where? Really?

The point was made that Muller & Pienaar are Ulster's greatest signings - my point is that BJ Botha was Ulster's most significant signing because he was the one that put Ulster on the player recruitment map and more than likely all three would be at Sarries now if he hadn't come to Ulster in the first place. Don't forget as well that Ulster had lost Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Neil Best etc. around that time, so Ulster would not have been an attractive place to go.

I understand the point. I just don't see why it's relevant...

...Other than to claim that Ulsters most influential signing is now at Munster

roddersm wrote:Sin we get it sir, Ulsters most significant signing is now a Munster man, who in turn was signed by an ex-Leinster man!

We will expect to see an influx of top Saffers at Munster very soon then...

Ya, Rodders, ye dumped BJ and now want to write him out of your history

Don't think Munster needed BJ to get players to sign now, but I'd say that Christian Cullen did a similar job for Munster as BJ has done for Ulster.

Sin e if you want to believe that Botha is the catalyst be my guest.

From everything I know it is not true though

Humphreys was the catalyst. I fully admit he got lucky with Peel and Rush messing him about.

Muller has stated publically that Humphreys was the man who persuaded his to join.
I personally have heard Pienaer say that he joined Ulster was because of Humphreys and Muller.

Neither mentioned Botha.

In truth Botha is a very private person and a bit of a loner. Nothing wrong with that but not someone who is life and sole of the party and someone who would take some time to develop friendships and trust.

We didn't dump BJ - he left because he went back on his word.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who approached who about singing where? Really?

The point was made that Muller & Pienaar are Ulster's greatest signings - my point is that BJ Botha was Ulster's most significant signing because he was the one that put Ulster on the player recruitment map and more than likely all three would be at Sarries now if he hadn't come to Ulster in the first place. Don't forget as well that Ulster had lost Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Neil Best etc. around that time, so Ulster would not have been an attractive place to go.

I understand the point. I just don't see why it's relevant...

...Other than to claim that Ulsters most influential signing is now at Munster

Only relevant because the Ulster fans protested so much that BJ wasn't there most significant signing I wonder does that have something to do with the fact that he is now with Munster?

I doubt if Leinster fans would put up much of an argument against the suggestion that Rocky Elsom or felipe were two of Leinster's greatest signings even though neither are with Leinster now.

BoyneRFC wrote:Funny no one is mentioning sectarianism or anything like it only you Portnoy...

Why is that?

He's the only one wearing elephant-spotting glasses..?

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e if you want to believe that Botha is the catalyst be my guest.

From everything I know it is not true though

Humphreys was the catalyst. I fully admit he got lucky with Peel and Rush messing him about.

Muller has stated publically that Humphreys was the man who persuaded his to join.
I personally have heard Pienaer say that he joined Ulster was because of Humphreys and Muller.

Neither mentioned Botha.

In truth Botha is a very private person and a bit of a loner. Nothing wrong with that but not someone who is life and sole of the party and someone who would take some time to develop friendships and trust.

Botha is not flavour of the month in Ulster, is he?

I just quoted a piece about Muller saying how he was delighed to be joining his good friend BJ in Ulster in the press release that announced his arrival.

And there is an interview with BJ saying how he didn't want to leave Belfast because his family were very happy there and I've seen him tweet that he was going up to Belfast to visit since he has moved to Munster. BJ maybe a bit of a looner and quietish, but Pienaar & Muller don't come across as a barrell of laughs either.

Nobody is saying Botha wasn't a significant signing he was.

It is his impact on other signings that is highly questionable.
That plus the fact that we have signed a player this year, Afoa, who has been significantly superior.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who approached who about singing where? Really?

The point was made that Muller & Pienaar are Ulster's greatest signings - my point is that BJ Botha was Ulster's most significant signing because he was the one that put Ulster on the player recruitment map and more than likely all three would be at Sarries now if he hadn't come to Ulster in the first place. Don't forget as well that Ulster had lost Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Neil Best etc. around that time, so Ulster would not have been an attractive place to go.

I understand the point. I just don't see why it's relevant...

...Other than to claim that Ulsters most influential signing is now at Munster

Only relevant because the Ulster fans protested so much that BJ wasn't there most significant signing I wonder does that have something to do with the fact that he is now with Munster?

I doubt if Leinster fans would put up much of an argument against the suggestion that Rocky Elsom or felipe were two of Leinster's greatest signings even though neither are with Leinster now.

The difference would be that Ulster never had never made the HC Semi Final with BJ Botha. We won a HC with Elsom and Dr Phil.

Sin é wrote:
Botha is not flavour of the month in Ulster, is he?

I'd have thought he's well like and respected up here. He messed around a bit with his contract at the end but I think most people would appreciate what he brought to the club.

I think you are stretching things a bit by saying he was our most significant signing.

geoff998rugby wrote:Nobody is saying Botha wasn't a significant signing he was.

It is his impact on other signings that is highly questionable.
That plus the fact that we have signed a player this year, Afoa, who has been significantly superior.

Christian Cullen hardly played for Munster, I'd still regard him as a very significant signing though. I doubt if Munster would have attracted the interest of Howlett or Tipoki for instance as Munster would have the reputation for playing 10 man rugby back then.

Afoa maybe a better player than Botha, but would Afoa have come to Ulster in the 2008/09 season with Isaac Boss as scrum half and Carlo del Falva/Ed O'Donoghue as as 2nd row?

Botha was clearly not Ulsters most significant signing. What nonsense.

I would say that Ruan Pienaar set the standard.

red_stag wrote:Botha was clearly not Ulsters most significant signing. What nonsense.

I would say that Ruan Pienaar set the standard.

And your opinion is obviously superior to mine.

Are you going to call me a moron for having a different opinion to you as well?

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who approached who about singing where? Really?

The point was made that Muller & Pienaar are Ulster's greatest signings - my point is that BJ Botha was Ulster's most significant signing because he was the one that put Ulster on the player recruitment map and more than likely all three would be at Sarries now if he hadn't come to Ulster in the first place. Don't forget as well that Ulster had lost Tommy Bowe, Roger Wilson, Neil Best etc. around that time, so Ulster would not have been an attractive place to go.

I understand the point. I just don't see why it's relevant...

...Other than to claim that Ulsters most influential signing is now at Munster

Only relevant because the Ulster fans protested so much that BJ wasn't there most significant signing I wonder does that have something to do with the fact that he is now with Munster?

I doubt if Leinster fans would put up much of an argument against the suggestion that Rocky Elsom or felipe were two of Leinster's greatest signings even though neither are with Leinster now.

The difference would be that Ulster never had never made the HC Semi Final with BJ Botha. We won a HC with Elsom and Dr Phil.

Leinster was never fighting it out at the bottom of the league with Connacht for a Heineken Cup spot either.

Sine, what do you want me to say.

red_stag wrote:Sine, what do you want me to say.

I think he wants you to call him a moron.....

red_stag wrote:Sine, what do you want me to say.

Something a bit more convincing than 'its nonsense'.

If you need me to tell you what to say, maybe you should be keeping quiet.

Biltong

Its the O'Bothas' and the O'Pienaars now. any poaching will have to come from SA

Like i say BJ is imo a great player for Ulster and a massively significant signing. I think he pales in comparison to Muller and Pienaar is all. The work they do around the community talking about their faith and how they have bought into the province both inside and outside of rugby is really pleasing. Im not 100% sure but Pienaars wife was very keen to stay here with the new baby which no doubt was instrumental in him signing a new 2 year deal.

From a part of the world with more than its fair share of problems i take a bit of pride in that. Whether you buy into the beliefs of Muller and Pienaar then are fantastic ambassadors for Ulster rugby and perfect role models for youngsters taking up the game. Terblanche also given his age.

I'd say that a former Shark prop could indeed be Ulster's most influential signing.

Robbie Kempson.

It was rumoured that he encouraged Trevor Halstead to come over to Ireland and paved the way for other sharks Ollie Le Roux and BJ Botha to make the journey. His friendship with Johann Muller probably didn't do any harm either.

Robbie is from the Stormers Aukster.

Standulstermen wrote:Biltong

Its the O'Bothas' and the O'Pienaars now. any poaching will have to come from SA

Like i say BJ is imo a great player for Ulster and a massively significant signing. I think he pales in comparison to Muller and Pienaar is all. The work they do around the community talking about their faith and how they have bought into the province both inside and outside of rugby is really pleasing. Im not 100% sure but Pienaars wife was very keen to stay here with the new baby which no doubt was instrumental in him signing a new 2 year deal.

From a part of the world with more than its fair share of problems i take a bit of pride in that. Whether you buy into the beliefs of Muller and Pienaar then are fantastic ambassadors for Ulster rugby and perfect role models for youngsters taking up the game. Terblanche also given his age.

Ulsterman, putting that O' in front of their names O'nly leads me to this.

O'Botha, O'Muller, O'Pienaar, O'Terblanche..... O deary me, what have you done?

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Sine, what do you want me to say.

Something a bit more convincing than 'its nonsense'.

If you need me to tell you what to say, maybe you should be keeping quiet.

Righto what about "Its a LOAD of nonsense"

biltongbek wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Biltong

Its the O'Bothas' and the O'Pienaars now. any poaching will have to come from SA

Like i say BJ is imo a great player for Ulster and a massively significant signing. I think he pales in comparison to Muller and Pienaar is all. The work they do around the community talking about their faith and how they have bought into the province both inside and outside of rugby is really pleasing. Im not 100% sure but Pienaars wife was very keen to stay here with the new baby which no doubt was instrumental in him signing a new 2 year deal.

From a part of the world with more than its fair share of problems i take a bit of pride in that. Whether you buy into the beliefs of Muller and Pienaar then are fantastic ambassadors for Ulster rugby and perfect role models for youngsters taking up the game. Terblanche also given his age.

Ulsterman, putting that O' in front of their names O'nly leads me to this.

O'Botha, O'Muller, O'Pienaar, O'Terblanche..... O deary me, what have you done?

The Irish do like their O'schisms don't they?

Just don't mention the past until they find it O'convenient...

Portnoy, why the need for it?

You're the only one that mentioned the past on this thread though?

Mickado wrote:You're the only one that mentioned the past on this thread though?

Once again I beg you to read the OP.

A piece of peace, blighted by anger and outrage and accusation and tribalism.

I rest my case...

biltongbek wrote:Robbie is from the Stormers Aukster.

Natal before Capetown!

red_stag wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Sine, what do you want me to say.

Something a bit more convincing than 'its nonsense'.

If you need me to tell you what to say, maybe you should be keeping quiet.

Righto what about "Its a LOAD of nonsense"

Wow. Your on fire!

A long, looooooooooonnnnng time ago.

Portnoy, you are 61 years old. 61.

I understand that you may have seen many things in your life... 1st world cup, introduction of Italy into the 6 nations, the fall of the British empire ect ect..

But honestly, posting inflammatory c rap, just because you are retired and at home, bored, doesn't mean your mental health will benefit from being the typical keyboard warrior, spitting out nonsensical rubbish (usually always pointed at Ireland, Northern Ireland, sectarianism)

Judging by your apparent grasp of your own language, I don't put you in the bracket of the UKIP, Daily Mail reading gang... so really, for someone your age with the apparent level of education you have, there really is no excuse.

Let go old bean. Concentrate on the rugby (if you even like / watch the game).

Now, get the missus to make you a nice cup of and read how these knowledgeable people discuss the game we (well, most of us) love.

BoyneRFC wrote:Portnoy, you are 61 years old. 61.

I understand that you may have seen many things in your life... 1st world cup, introduction of Italy into the 6 nations, the fall of the British empire ect ect..

But honestly, posting inflammatory c rap, just because you are retired and at home, bored, doesn't mean your mental health will benefit from being the typical keyboard warrior, spitting out nonsensical rubbish (usually always pointed at Ireland, Northern Ireland, sectarianism)

Judging by your apparent grasp of your own language, I don't put you in the bracket of the UKIP, Daily Mail reading gang... so really, for someone your age with the apparent level of education you have, there really is no excuse.

Let go old bean. Concentrate on the rugby (if you even like / watch the game).

Now, get the missus to make you a nice cup of and read how these knowledgeable people discuss the game we (well, most of us) love.

+1 I have previosuly stated on another thread, late on Friday night just gone, that Portnoy seems to mistake ingnorant baiting and juvenile nationalistic puerility for stoking an informed debate.

Well, I say mistake....

Portnoy, again, you have let the side down. Stick to the game.

Stand makes a very very good point.

The contribution of Muller and Pienaer to the wider community has been outstanding. Working with children, charities and churches and generally taking the game to areas where rugby is not the first sport.

In fact this has been a key element in all of the Humphreys signings - Afoa, Payne, Wannenberg as well. Clearly they are told when signed that they have a wider responsibilty.

As the players themselvesd have made quite clear it is Humphreys who sold them the total package.

These are not activities that the likes of Danielli or Botha got involved in in any measurable degree.

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Robbie is from the Stormers Aukster.

Natal before Capetown!

For the record:

Muller started playing for the Sharks in the 02/03 season.

Kempson was with the Stormers from the 98/99 season and started playing for Ulster in the 02/03 season.

Kempson played 12 games for Ulster in 2 seasons from what I can see!

BoyneRFC wrote:Portnoy, you are 61 years old. 61.

I understand that you may have seen many things in your life... 1st world cup, introduction of Italy into the 6 nations, the fall of the British empire ect ect..

But honestly, posting inflammatory c rap, just because you are retired and at home, bored, doesn't mean your mental health will benefit from being the typical keyboard warrior, spitting out nonsensical rubbish (usually always pointed at Ireland, Northern Ireland, sectarianism)

Judging by your apparent grasp of your own language, I don't put you in the bracket of the UKIP, Daily Mail reading gang... so really, for someone your age with the apparent level of education you have, there really is no excuse.

Let go old bean. Concentrate on the rugby (if you even like / watch the game).

Now, get the missus to make you a nice cup of and read how these knowledgeable people discuss the game we (well, most of us) love.

Boyne.

A word of advice:
If you go into a local election or a by-election or a referendum, don't vote on the irrelevances of matters outside their scope. That only goes to cloud issues and tends to lead nowhere up a blind alley.

Mind you, if you propose a discussion about A and it morphs into Z, then would you not feel the right to redirect it?

Portnoy (aged 61).

geoff998rugby wrote:
These are not activities that the likes of Danielli or Botha got involved in in any measurable degree.

In fairness Geoff thats not something I would hold against either player or judge them on.

Don't get me wrong I'm delighted that Pienaar and Muller in particular have integrated so well into the local community and if they see their roles here as part of a wider Christian mission, well fair play to them.

However ultimately they are rugby players and I'm a rugby fan so its really only what they are contributing in that respect, on and off the pitch that matters to me and how they are representing Ulster rugby.

What a player does on a Sunday morning or in their spare time is their business provided it doesn't reflect badly on the club or affect their on field performances.

Senility so?

OK, my apologies.

geoff998rugby wrote:Stand makes a very very good point.

The contribution of Muller and Pienaer to the wider community has been outstanding. Working with children, charities and churches and generally taking the game to areas where rugby is not the first sport.

In fact this has been a key element in all of the Humphreys signings - Afoa, Payne, Wannenberg as well. Clearly they are told when signed that they have a wider responsibilty.

As the players themselvesd have made quite clear it is Humphreys who sold them the total package.

These are not activities that the likes of Danielli or Botha got involved in in any measurable degree.

Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion. And its not unusual for all players to be encouraged to have a charity that they support. For instance, Rob Kearney and Jamie Heaslip were off in Africa in the last while, and DOC is a UNICEF ambassador. Munster names two or three local charities that they raise funds for every year.

Rodders I agree but I was just highlightlighting the extent that our more recent signings have gone and over and above the call of duty in working, and living, in the local community.

Muller and Pienaer have been exceptional in this regard.

As I have said a few times on this forum you could not meet a nicer bloke than Simon Danielli - a perfect gent

Interesting link.

Irish-based stars back on Bok radar

Also, Ulster defeating Munster in Thomond would have been unthinkable a few years ago. Reminds me of this funny Titanic related picture.

Spoiler:

Humphries is doing a great job. As is McLaughlin. get smart, talented people in the right positions and good things happen. Welsh regions should take note.

biltongbek wrote:A long, looooooooooonnnnng time ago.

That's the great thing about the word "former" - it isn't date stamped


BTW Sin it has been known for people to meet outside the rugby pitch. Do you know who it was that brought Cullen to Munster?
Could he have been influenced by his Wellington teammate Paul Steinmetz who had just signed for Ulster and by coincidence they both shared the same agent?

Sin é wrote:
Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

Why? Are you suggesting that we are a religiously intolerent society compared to everywhere else?

As I said above, what a player does in their own time is their own business.

Sin é wrote:Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

Thanks for sharing your expert insight with us

Sin é wrote: Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

It hasn't.

They do with such deference and politness I have not heard anyone, not even the vaguest rumour, complain.

I have on the other hand heard high praise, from atheist and other of a different religious persuasion, with respect to the way they conduct themselves, I would include myself in that. They are such gentle decent people off the pitch you cant help but like them.

BREAKING NEWS

Ruan Pienaar, Johnan Muller, Stefan Terblanche and Pedrie Wannenberg has been recalled to the Springbok training camp in three weeks.

They will form part fo the Bulls and Sharks players during their bye week of the Super XV.

Johan Muller and Ruan Pienaar has both intimated that they would return to South Africa if needed.

This comes after Butch James has announced his retirement from international rugby yesterday and Victor Matfield has declined the invitation of Heyneke Meyer to return as captain for the English incoming tour.