The Titanic and my best wishes to Ulster.

First topic message reminder :

The media have gone into overdrive on the tragedy a hundred years ago.

Much of this is mawkish and in the case of the Belfast Titanic Museum, cynical commercialism.

But at the root of it the Harland and Wolff was a deeply sectarian organisation which was in no way the last reason for the problems in northern Ireland in the 20th century.

That is why I want Ulster to do well. A side which spans the both the divide and the Irish nations to win the HEC in this centenary year would be welcome by pretty much every neutral (I hope).

Sin é wrote:Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

Would that be the silent majority?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

It hasn't.

They do with such deference and politness I have not heard anyone, not even the vaguest rumour, complain.

I have on the other hand heard high praise, from atheist and other of a different religious persuasion, with respect to the way they conduct themselves, I would include myself in that. They are such gentle decent people off the pitch you cant help but like them.

It's bad enough (although sometimes justified) for sport to get dragged into politics.

But religion should be left as a no-go area.

Terblanche !!!!

He will be laughing his leg off.

He only joined Ulster because his wife wanted him out of the house because he was mopping about after retiring (I am only half joking)

Now he is in the Saffers squad at 36.

Mind you his form deserves it.

Anyone who feels alienated by a players religious beliefs, provided it doesn't interfere with club affairs, isn't the kind of fan I'd particularly want us to be attracting.

Religon has no place in politics and it has no place in sport imo.

Portnoy wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

It hasn't.

They do with such deference and politness I have not heard anyone, not even the vaguest rumour, complain.

I have on the other hand heard high praise, from atheist and other of a different religious persuasion, with respect to the way they conduct themselves, I would include myself in that. They are such gentle decent people off the pitch you cant help but like them.

It's bad enough (although sometimes justified) for sport to get dragged into politics.

But religion should be left as a no-go area.

What are you saying that rugby players should not be involved in religion
Please explain

The Great Aukster wrote:

biltongbek wrote:A long, looooooooooonnnnng time ago.

That's the great thing about the word "former" - it isn't date stamped


BTW Sin it has been known for people to meet outside the rugby pitch. Do you know who it was that brought Cullen to Munster?
Could he have been influenced by his Wellington teammate Paul Steinmetz who had just signed for Ulster and by coincidence they both shared the same agent?

He could have been. And if it was, fair play to PS for persuading his good mate to join a competitor!

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

It hasn't.

They do with such deference and politness I have not heard anyone, not even the vaguest rumour, complain.

I have on the other hand heard high praise, from atheist and other of a different religious persuasion, with respect to the way they conduct themselves, I would include myself in that. They are such gentle decent people off the pitch you cant help but like them.

It's bad enough (although sometimes justified) for sport to get dragged into politics.

But religion should be left as a no-go area.

What are you saying that rugby players should not be involved in religion
Please explain

What Geoff, are you talking to me?

I never said that a player shouldn't have a faith.
Just that faiths should not be vehicles for sports conflicts.

biltongbek wrote:BREAKING NEWS

Ruan Pienaar, Johnan Muller, Stefan Terblanche and Pedrie Wannenberg has been recalled to the Springbok training camp in three weeks.

Jeebus christ on a bike! What about the HEC final?!

Well deserved though, delighted for everyone of them, especially Terblanche. That guy is awesome .

Portnoy wrote:I never said that a player shouldn't have a faith.
Just that faiths should not be vehicles for sports conflicts.

That's not whats happening at all though. I've never seen anyone suggest that before.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy wrote:I never said that a player shouldn't have a faith.
Just that faiths should not be vehicles for sports conflicts.

That's not whats happening at all though. I've never seen anyone suggest that before.

Sin E suggested it.

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:BREAKING NEWS

Ruan Pienaar, Johnan Muller, Stefan Terblanche and Pedrie Wannenberg has been recalled to the Springbok training camp in three weeks.

Jeebus christ on a bike! What about the HEC final?!

Well deserved though, delighted for everyone of them, especially Terblanche. That guy is awesome .

Just playing with you rodders.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:

Portnoy wrote:I never said that a player shouldn't have a faith.
Just that faiths should not be vehicles for sports conflicts.

That's not whats happening at all though. I've never seen anyone suggest that before.

Sin E suggested it.

We all know about him though. No one credible has ever suggested it.

roddersm wrote:Jeebus christ on a bike! What about the HEC final?!

Don't be mixing yer religion and sport there Rodders, there's no place for it and people will be offended. About 75% of the posters are already stewing in quiet alienation.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Having players preach in churches would alienate quiet a section of the NI community in my opinion.

Why? Are you suggesting that we are a religiously intolerent society compared to everywhere else?

As I said above, what a player does in their own time is their own business.

Because there has been enough of trouble over religion in NI that its best if players kept it personal to themselves.

For the record, I don't have a problem with Pienaar & Muller preaching etc., but that is up to them and shouldn't be seen as some sort of activity that is promoted or lauded by Ulster Rugby.

Bear in mind, it wasn't too long ago when it was regarded as wrong to play sport on a Sunday in NI, which outside of NI people think is completely daft.

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:BREAKING NEWS

Ruan Pienaar, Johnan Muller, Stefan Terblanche and Pedrie Wannenberg has been recalled to the Springbok training camp in three weeks.

Jeebus christ on a bike! What about the HEC final?!

Well deserved though, delighted for everyone of them, especially Terblanche. That guy is awesome .

Just playing with you rodders.

Muller and Pienaar and Trimble etc etc do the things they do in churches because they feel convicted to do so by their faith. It is completely separate to their identity as a sportsman (although this is what draws a crowd). What i mean is, its not part of their publicity or some arrangement that they made to engage with the local community. These guys would be in churches no matter what club they played for in any country.

It just so happens that David is of a similar religious beliefs, and that may have helped them to engage with this aspect of their personal life whilst being here, but people at the club have both working relationships and personal relationships.

Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere - It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

roddersm wrote:

biltongbek wrote:BREAKING NEWS

Ruan Pienaar, Johnan Muller, Stefan Terblanche and Pedrie Wannenberg has been recalled to the Springbok training camp in three weeks.

Jeebus christ on a bike! What about the HEC final?!

Well deserved though, delighted for everyone of them, especially Terblanche. That guy is awesome .

Just playing with you rodders.

you need to work on your jab Rodders, it is pretty weak.

I’ve seen a good few interviews where Brad Thorn mentions that he’s a devout christian.

And as a reformed catholic I have to say I’m absolutely silently furious. But you know, tighthead locks of that caliber don’t grow on trees so…

Sin é wrote:For the record, I don't have a problem with Pienaar & Muller preaching etc., but that is up to them and shouldn't be seen as some sort of activity that is promoted or lauded by Ulster Rugby.

But it has nothing to do with Ulster Rugby, in any way. It's purely down to what they do in their personal lives in their own time. The only time I've seen people trying to connect what some Ulster Rugby employees do in their own private lives to the image of Ulster Rugby is on this thread.

People are creating issues where none exist.

Biltongbek that was brilliant...you Bar Steward

Sin E, South Africans going to church is not offensive in any way. Anybody having strong faith is not offensive. Euan Murray not playing on a Sunday is not offensive. Soccer players blessing themselves and pointing at the sky when they score is not offensive. I'm not religious. But most people are. And it's not offensive.

Sin E said their attendance at church might offend people. I'll concede that there probably are some people up there who will say they're offended by someone's religion. But they want to be offended because they're looking for an argument. I concede that there are probably some people who will happily take them up in that argument. But those types of people don't really belong at Ravenhill I think.

Although I've never been, from what I know, I think Ravenhill is a family friendly, non-religious place. We know that most of their players over the years and most of their supporters are probably from one side of the historic divide. But that doesn't mean that these days they don't make every effort to be inclusive. I think they do. And I think they are gaining support because of it.

That's just what I think. I'm sure some Ulster fans can confirm that.

A no time has the religious conviction of the Ulster players been raised in any form what so ever as a cause for concern or conflict. In fact if anything just the opposite - they are admired for it across the sporting and political divide

To suggest otherwise is just Poopie stirring

Sin é wrote:
Because there has been enough of trouble over religion in NI that its best if players kept it personal to themselves.

For the record, I don't have a problem with Pienaar & Muller preaching etc., but that is up to them and shouldn't be seen as some sort of activity that is promoted or lauded by Ulster Rugby.

Bear in mind, it wasn't too long ago when it was regarded as wrong to play sport on a Sunday in NI, which outside of NI people think is completely daft.

Sin this is 2012 mate. No one in NI has to hide their religon, not that they ever should have.

People here have the same, if not more, civil and human rights to religious freedom as anywhere else in the developed world.

I agree it is not something to be lauded by the club, and I don't think it is, it is a personal matter for the players involved but it isn't something to be hidden either. Players contributing to the community should be lauded though.

Some people still do think its wrong to play sport on a Sunday amongst other things, some don't. What matters is that people are free from religious intolerence and persecution and not judged on their beliefs or lack of them.

Thats the same in NI as anywhere else .

Mickado wrote:I’ve seen a good few interviews where Brad Thorn mentions that he’s a devout christian.

And as a reformed catholic I have to say I’m absolutely silently furious. But you know, tighthead locks of that caliber don’t grow on trees so…

Artful_Dodger wrote:Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere -

It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

Err not exactly AD.

I believe that I have once dragged Adams' name into a conversation as an analogy regarding valid representations on one thing or another (and if you insist I'll scour my past posts to support the evidence and that was there and gone in a single post without any real comment).

It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I think you'll find that the underlying sentiment is that I praised Irish ans Ulster rugby for transcending the divides. And nothing more.

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltongbek that was brilliant...you Bar Steward

Thank you kindly Sir, I aim to entertain.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere - It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

I agree, why on earth are you even mentioning sectarianism in the context of rugby? It's not something that comes into the equation with Ulster. If Ulster do go to do well this season 99% of people in NI will wish them well because that's what we do when a sporting bandwagon rolls into town. Then if they do downhill again people will shrug their shoulders and move on to the next fad leaving the more permanent fans too it once again. Their feelings towards the team won't be dictated by their background or their politics and the teams success won't change those things either. Sporting success stories tend to fall outside that ugly sphere of political strife in this country. Nobody cared about George Bests religious background, nobody cares about Rory McIlroys background etc.

It feels like there are a couple of posters in this thread, not from Northern Ireland, who are trying to shoehorn their rather sketchy and incomplete knowledge of inter-community tensions in post-conflict NI into a setting in which they do not belong. In Northern Ireland, old wounds are never far from the surface. But, please, let us just enjoy any success we're lucky enough to have on the rugby field for what it is; success on the rugby field. Same as any other team in Europe and welcomed in exactly the same way. Stop viewing everything that happens here through some bizarre lens formed of your own prejudices and pre-suppositions. Sometimes it's just about rugby.

Feckless spot on.

Whilst it is clearly true that support has traditionally been from one side that has changed so much that to be honest I am not sure anyone cares anymore.

Also how does anyone know what the religious makeup of the crowd is - no one asked me when I go in. From my name an assumption could be made - that assumption would be wrong.

To show how irrelevant it has become I am pretty certain we put out an all Catholic front row this year - did anyone care, other than a handful did anyone even realize. The answer to both is no because it doesn't matter and is a complete irrelevance.

If someone has religious hang ups about players or spectator stay away you are not the sort of supporters we want

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere - It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

I agree, why on earth are you even mentioning sectarianism in the context of rugby? It's not something that comes into the equation with Ulster. If Ulster do go to do well this season 99% of people in NI will wish them well because that's what we do when a sporting bandwagon rolls into town. Then if they do downhill again people will shrug their shoulders and move on to the next fad leaving the more permanent fans too it once again. Their feelings towards the team won't be dictated by their background or their politics and the teams success won't change those things either. Sporting success stories tend to fall outside that ugly sphere of political strife in this country. Nobody cared about George Bests religious background, nobody cares about Rory McIlroys background etc.

It feels like there are a couple of posters in this thread, not from Northern Ireland, who are trying to shoehorn their rather sketchy and incomplete knowledge of inter-community tensions in post-conflict NI into a setting in which they do not belong. In Northern Ireland, old wounds are never far from the surface. But, please, let us just enjoy any success we're lucky enough to have on the rugby field for what it is; success on the rugby field. Same as any other team in Europe and welcomed in exactly the same way.

The easiest way of not allowing a manufacturer of a product is to read what it says on the tin and not to buy it, misuse it and then complain to the said manufacturer that this can contained baked beans and is hopeless at being varnish.

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere - It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

I agree, why on earth are you even mentioning sectarianism in the context of rugby? It's not something that comes into the equation with Ulster. If Ulster do go to do well this season 99% of people in NI will wish them well because that's what we do when a sporting bandwagon rolls into town. Then if they do downhill again people will shrug their shoulders and move on to the next fad leaving the more permanent fans too it once again. Their feelings towards the team won't be dictated by their background or their politics and the teams success won't change those things either. Sporting success stories tend to fall outside that ugly sphere of political strife in this country. Nobody cared about George Bests religious background, nobody cares about Rory McIlroys background etc.

It feels like there are a couple of posters in this thread, not from Northern Ireland, who are trying to shoehorn their rather sketchy and incomplete knowledge of inter-community tensions in post-conflict NI into a setting in which they do not belong. In Northern Ireland, old wounds are never far from the surface. But, please, let us just enjoy any success we're lucky enough to have on the rugby field for what it is; success on the rugby field. Same as any other team in Europe and welcomed in exactly the same way. Stop viewing everything that happens here through some bizarre lens formed of your own prejudices and pre-suppositions. Sometimes it's just about rugby.

+1

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sin E said their attendance at church might offend people. I'll concede that there probably are some people up there who will say they're offended by someone's religion. But they want to be offended because they're looking for an argument. I concede that there are probably some people who will happily take them up in that argument. But those types of people don't really belong at Ravenhill I think.

Although I've never been, from what I know, I think Ravenhill is a family friendly, non-religious place. We know that most of their players over the years and most of their supporters are probably from one side of the historic divide. But that doesn't mean that these days they don't make every effort to be inclusive. I think they do. And I think they are gaining support because of it.

That's just what I think. I'm sure some Ulster fans can confirm that.

I did not say that.

Then don't respond to threads that don't reflect the OP.

Or don't expect the author to complain about hi-jacking.

Portnoy use plain English - otherwise dont bother.

What prompted my earlier question about potential influence of religious culture on southern players heading to Ulster was in part due to this well-written article published in The Irish Times some months ago. People may have already read it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1203/1224308521989.html

I don't see this as a sectarian issue, more a cultural one that inhabits some of the players, particularly with the influx of the SA players to the squad.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Also how does anyone know what the religious makeup of the crowd is - no one asked me when I go in. From my name an assumption could be made - that assumption would be wrong.

People can tell your religon from geoff998rugby?....

As long as Pienaar keeps knocking over those long range pens and Muller keeps winning the lineouts I don't care if they drink goats blood and dance around stone henge naked in their spare time.

In SA when you shoot your first buck, you get to eat its heart, or liver after you have killed it.

Oh and real south african men don't dance.

Sin é wrote: For the record, I don't have a problem with Pienaar & Muller preaching etc., but that is up to them and shouldn't be seen as some sort of activity that is promoted or lauded by Ulster Rugby.

Its not promoted by Ulster rugby, by the same token it isn't hidden either.

It is part of what they are and they are respected for it both within the club and outside the club for their views.
It also forms a part of their willingness to contribute to the wider community more proactively than players in the past. They do it because they want to.

Yes Rodders 998rugby is a dead give away

Someone living in Northern Ireland called Geoff - I think many would make an incorrect guess based on that information.

I can give you my life history if you like

geoff998rugby wrote:Portnoy use plain English - otherwise dont bother.

[quote="Artful_Dodger"]

Notch wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Portnoy you've been at this before in other posts bring Sinn Fein and Gerry Adams into rugby conversations out of nowhere - It makes it seem that your original post in this topic was little more than a guise for you to once again start trying to stir trouble bringing up politics, sectarianism and divisions in Ireland which have nothing to do with Irish rugby.

I did a Politics degree and even I'm tired of it.

I agree, why on earth are you even mentioning sectarianism in the context of rugby? It's not something that comes into the equation with Ulster. If Ulster do go to do well this season 99% of people in NI will wish them well because that's what we do when a sporting bandwagon rolls into town. Then if they do downhill again people will shrug their shoulders and move on to the next fad leaving the more permanent fans too it once again. Their feelings towards the team won't be dictated by their background or their politics and the teams success won't change those things either. Sporting success stories tend to fall outside that ugly sphere of political strife in this country. Nobody cared about George Bests religious background, nobody cares about Rory McIlroys background etc.

It feels like there are a couple of posters in this thread, not from Northern Ireland, who are trying to shoehorn their rather sketchy and incomplete knowledge of inter-community tensions in post-conflict NI into a setting in which they do not belong. In Northern Ireland, old wounds are never far from the surface. But, please, let us just enjoy any success we're lucky enough to have on the rugby field for what it is; success on the rugby field. Same as any other team in Europe and welcomed in exactly the same way. Stop viewing everything that happens here through some bizarre lens formed of your own prejudices and pre-suppositions. Sometimes it's just about rugby.

I have no prejudices. I have no faith. I have no religion.

All I'm celebrating is the neo-agnosticism of Irish/Ulster rugby. Plus its apoliticism.

And suddenly I'm a subersive fifth-columnist?

Yep.

I mentioned before that when my Dad and brother where in the CakeTin for SA v Fiji at the world cup, muller spotted their Ulster t-shirts in the crowd and actually made a point of coming over and talking to them.

That to me shows a bit of class.

As rodders has said they are employed to play rugby for Ulster and provided they give 100% i dont care much. The fact that these guys seem to be top blokes is just a bonus, but one that should be acknowledged.

roddersm wrote: As long as Pienaar keeps knocking over those long range pens and Muller keeps winning the lineouts I don't care if they drink goats blood and dance around stone henge naked in their spare time.

For flip sake keep quiet about that - it'll be all over facebook and twitter in no time.

Eh - Stonehenge is in south-east England.... a bit far.

I think the Big Fish or the Giant's Ring (ahem) would be much better. They don't mind you being naked there.

geoff998rugby wrote:I can give you my life history if you like

No thank you geoff, that won't be necessary. The inside track on Ulsters HEC SF preperations and the heads up on any transfer news should be sufficient .

roddersm wrote:As long as Pienaar keeps knocking over those long range pens and Muller keeps winning the lineouts I don't care if they drink goats blood and dance around stone henge naked in their spare time.

That made me laugh out loud.

Pot Hale wrote:What prompted my earlier question about potential influence of religious culture on southern players heading to Ulster was in part due to this well-written article published in The Irish Times some months ago. People may have already read it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1203/1224308521989.html

I don't see this as a sectarian issue, more a cultural one that inhabits some of the players, particularly with the influx of the SA players to the squad.

I remember reading that article. It is a cultural difference. Feel sorry for Wannenburg getting the door now, hope he doesn't go back to his bad ways.

I suppose people have a problem with you bringing up NEO-Agnosticism.

Why the need to remind people that things weren’t always this good, and then stamp your feet and try to get the thread back “on topic” i.e. please stop talking about Ulster rugby in general and talk about how things weren’t always as inclusive as they are today.

I'm actually not sure that rugby wasn't always inclusive in NI anyways, certainly in my limited experience, which dates back to the tale end of the troubles.

Portnoy you fool bloody no one mate, if this was the first time you'd approached this subject I might think you were in some way genuine, in reality you've been making posts about not just Ulster but Irish rugby as a whole that are very divisive, often controversial and unhelpful, where does your obsession with Irish rugby come from? Really?