The Titanic and my best wishes to Ulster.

First topic message reminder :

The media have gone into overdrive on the tragedy a hundred years ago.

Much of this is mawkish and in the case of the Belfast Titanic Museum, cynical commercialism.

But at the root of it the Harland and Wolff was a deeply sectarian organisation which was in no way the last reason for the problems in northern Ireland in the 20th century.

That is why I want Ulster to do well. A side which spans the both the divide and the Irish nations to win the HEC in this centenary year would be welcome by pretty much every neutral (I hope).

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But it doesn't have anything to do with Ulster rugby. That has been pointed out about a million times now.

Indeed. it's something they do in their own personal time. This has been explained too. Happy going around in circles everybody.

I think you should read the Irish Times article where they say that one of the reasons the Saffers came to Ulster was because of the Christian ethos of the place (i.e., they didn't go somewhere else that doesn't have the same Christian ethos).

I get what you mean Sin. The fact that some in the Ulster squad were a similar religion and there was a church they liked that they could attend, were some of one things that drew these three players to Ulster. But you're making it sound like they're marching around with bibles held aloft, celebrating how many Zulu's and Catholics their ancestors killed in the name of their saviour. This of course, would make people uncomfortable.

However the reality is that they go to Church, read the bible in their private time and have no problem talking openly about their faith. This does not make anyone feel uncomfortable. And it's not unusual for South Africans. I remember reading an interview with Bakkies Botha where he spoke in a similar way about his christianity and how it helped him control his temper (what would it have been like if he was an athiest??). The Springboks do pray together, I've heard. Not unusual on the African continent at all. They're generally more religious than us in Europe.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But it doesn't have anything to do with Ulster rugby. That has been pointed out about a million times now.

Indeed. it's something they do in their own personal time. This has been explained too. Happy going around in circles everybody.

I think you should read the Irish Times article where they say that one of the reasons the Saffers came to Ulster was because of the Christian ethos of the place (i.e., they didn't go somewhere else that doesn't have the same Christian ethos).

Sin have to weigh in here, of course they considered the Christian culture in the place they moved too, it is clearly very important to them. Just like if I was moving countries ideally I would want to be near the sea cos I love to surf. And to suggest that this was the reason they didn't go anywhere else undermines ulster rugby (which I assume was your intention) and all the Christian communities near all the professional rugby clubs in the world (a happy bonus). It's just a ridiculous conclusion to come to. I don't know why you even mentioned it and don't know what you expect people to say!

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't touch a job where a lot of the staff were heavy into bible readings, religion etc.

Understandable. Have you thought about changing your name?

Should I?

Probably not. They know how to forgive sin.

Won't somebody please think of the children?!?!

In fairness to Sin, I would be lashing out too if my club was signing people like Borlase and Downey. Especially at the team who was getting it right and had just dumped us out of the HEC.

Don Alfonso wrote:Won't somebody please think of the children?!?!

In fairness to Sin, I would be lashing out too if my club was signing people like Borlase and Downey. Especially at the team who was getting it right and had just dumped us out of the HEC.

I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

Maddog wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But it doesn't have anything to do with Ulster rugby. That has been pointed out about a million times now.

Indeed. it's something they do in their own personal time. This has been explained too. Happy going around in circles everybody.

I think you should read the Irish Times article where they say that one of the reasons the Saffers came to Ulster was because of the Christian ethos of the place (i.e., they didn't go somewhere else that doesn't have the same Christian ethos).

Sin have to weigh in here, of course they considered the Christian culture in the place they moved too, it is clearly very important to them. Just like if I was moving countries ideally I would want to be near the sea cos I love to surf. And to suggest that this was the reason they didn't go anywhere else undermines ulster rugby (which I assume was your intention) and all the Christian communities near all the professional rugby clubs in the world (a happy bonus). It's just a ridiculous conclusion to come to. I don't know why you even mentioned it and don't know what you expect people to say!

Quiet simply, I don't think religion should have anything to do with the workplace (or the State). And countries that have this connection with religion are usually pretty fecked up places.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't touch a job where a lot of the staff were heavy into bible readings, religion etc.

Understandable. Have you thought about changing your name?

Should I?

Probably not. They know how to forgive sin.

Ya, they were very quick to forgive the blacks in SA.

Sin é wrote: I have no issue with people privately practicing their faith, but this subject was brought up originally in this thread that players preaching in the community is good for Ulster Rugby.

That is not the case. What was said to be good for Ulster rugby was that the players were active in the local community working in schools, charities and churches. That includes, for example, the Best brothers teaching rugby in South Armagh schools in areas which up to now have been exclusively GAA territory.

I think it is good that players do not detact themselves form the local community.
The thing is other than yourself no one seems to find this an issue.

geoff999rugby wrote:Mrs P it is my experience that those who travel with an open mind open their mind even wider after their travels.

Those that travel with a close mind close their minds even more after their travels.

I think we are seeing that here.

Superb +1 Well said Geoff

Sin é wrote:
I think you should read the Irish Times article where they say that one of the reasons the Saffers came to Ulster was because of the Christian ethos of the place (i.e., they didn't go somewhere else that doesn't have the same Christian ethos).

Players move to somewhere they like shock ...hold the front page.

Sure this helped but be clear the overwhelming reason they moved to Ulster was the rugby and the vision of the future of Ulster than Humphreys presented to them.

Regardless of that anyone who thinks that the dressing room would be in anyway an uncomfortable environment for non practising christians doesn't know Ulster at all.

Best, Ferris, Wallace, Stevenson, Fitzpatrick and others would laugh their leg off at the suggestion.
They have no problem with the situation. In fact I understand the difference is the subject of a fair bit of light hearted leg pulling on both sides.

I'm probably the only one who has got the gut to say it (though Gibbo has hinted that he doesn't approve of this proselytising (they actually say they use their profiles as rugby players to do this).

Sin é wrote:
I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

Did it occur to you maybe those players, as well as people like Mafi maybe aren't as comfortable speaking openly about their beliefs in Munster for fear of meeting the kind of small minded and intolerent attitude that you are expressing here?

Personally I am not a Church goer or religious person but I see no problem whatsoever that Muller, Pienaar etc. have found that their strong Christian faith has helped them feel at home in Ulster due to some of the native players and supporters sharing similar beliefs.

If their faith inspires them to contribute positively in the community then that is a good thing in my opinion.

It is a personal matter for the players involved and it has no bearing on their roles as Ulster rugby players. For example none of the players involved had an issue with playing on Easter sunday. It is not a problem for other Ulster players who do not have the same beliefs, at least if it has no one has suggested that publically.

Thankfully Sin not everyone is as small minded and as intolerent as you.

red_stag wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Mrs P it is my experience that those who travel with an open mind open their mind even wider after their travels.

Those that travel with a close mind close their minds even more after their travels.

I think we are seeing that here.

Superb +1 Well said Geoff

Only subject I have a closed mind about is that there should be no religion or politics in sport - for example - I wouldn't have voted for Dana when she was going for president because of her proselytising and her association with right wing catholics.

Is it time to finally bow into the wishes of SinE and call him a moron like he asked us to?

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't touch a job where a lot of the staff were heavy into bible readings, religion etc.

Understandable. Have you thought about changing your name?

Should I?

Probably not. They know how to forgive sin.

Ya, they were very quick to forgive the blacks in SA.

Who was? Muller and Pienaar?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

Did it occur to you maybe those players, as well as people like Mafi maybe aren't as comfortable speaking openly about their beliefs in Munster for fear of meeting the kind of small minded and intolerent attitude that you are expressing here?

Personally I am not a Church goer or religious person but I see no problem whatsoever that Muller, Pienaar etc. have found that their strong Christian faith has helped them feel at home in Ulster due to some of the native players and supporters sharing similar beliefs.

If their faith inspires them to contribute positively in the community then that is a good thing in my opinion.

It is a personal matter for the players involved and it has no bearing on their roles as Ulster rugby players. For example none of the players involved had an issue with playing on Easter sunday. It is not a problem for other Ulster players who do not have the same beliefs, at least if it has no one has suggested that publically.

Thankfully Sin not everyone is as small minded and as intolerent as you.

I've said again and again, Mafi and anyone can pray at home or in his church, community etc. etc. but not proselytise in a shared working place. That is the only place I'm intollerant of it happening and I wouldn't be too happy if he was using his profile as a Munster Rugby player to preach.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:I wouldn't touch a job where a lot of the staff were heavy into bible readings, religion etc.

Understandable. Have you thought about changing your name?

Should I?

Probably not. They know how to forgive sin.

Ya, they were very quick to forgive the blacks in SA.

Who was? Muller and Pienaar?

The community that they come from where they developed this Christian ethos.

red_stag wrote:Is it time to finally bow into the wishes of SinE and call him a moron like he asked us to?

Very Christian attitude of you there Stag. Perhaps you could do with a few lectures from Muller & co.

Perhaps a few more who are flinging out the insults here could do with a consultation as well.

The first lecture could be on "Treating others like you would like them to treat you."

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Won't somebody please think of the children?!?!

In fairness to Sin, I would be lashing out too if my club was signing people like Borlase and Downey. Especially at the team who was getting it right and had just dumped us out of the HEC.

I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

And are you happy Borlase is occupying your precious project player slot? (You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it.)

Look, I'm just winding, Sin. I actually agree with you. I too hate it when people I work with have sincerely-held but different beliefs to my own.


So, to recap -
You're saying that the reasons that players won't come north in any numbers is that we have crazy South African Christians on the team who refuse to hide their religion, we're a differenr country and there are flags everywhere (because most Ulster players live on the Shankill Road). No reasonable Southerner wants to play somewhere so damnably foreign. The lack of a tax break plays no part, because that might suggest that Munster have, somehere along the line, a tiny advantage over Ulster in poaching Leinster and Connacht players.

It's imperative we face the fact that it's all our fault they won't come North.

Well, I'd say the most convincing thing we can do to persuade those young fellas to come up is work our way to the top table of European Rugby. I'd say currently, we're looking around the dining room, wondering where we could sit. Hey - wait - is that Munster getting up to leave...?

It never ceases to amaze me when I see anyone condemn an entire racial group as racist.

Can they not see the irony?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Won't somebody please think of the children?!?!

In fairness to Sin, I would be lashing out too if my club was signing people like Borlase and Downey. Especially at the team who was getting it right and had just dumped us out of the HEC.

I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

And are you happy Borlase is occupying your precious project player slot? (You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it.)

Look, I'm just winding, Sin. I actually agree with you. I too hate it when people I work with have sincerely-held but different beliefs to my own.


So, to recap -
You're saying that the reasons that players won't come north in any numbers is that we have crazy South African Christians on the team who refuse to hide their religion, we're a differenr country and there are flags everywhere (because most Ulster players live on the Shankill Road). No reasonable Southerner wants to play somewhere so damnably foreign. The lack of a tax break plays no part, because that might suggest that Munster have, somehere along the line, a tiny advantage over Ulster in poaching Leinster and Connacht players.

It's imperative we face the fact that it's all our fault they won't come North.

Well, I'd say the most convincing thing we can do to persuade those young fellas to come up is work our way to the top table of European Rugby. I'd say currently, we're looking around the dining room, wondering where we could sit. Hey - wait - is that Munster getting up to leave...?

Truth be told, I'm not gone on this whole project player idea in the first place and it doesn't really matter whether Borlase worked out or not, though I think he has been extremely unfortunate with injury and I hope that comes right for him.

Same applies the other way around - I don't ever recall an Ulster born player coming to Munster - maybe the culture down here wouldn't suit them and they have all tended to go to england inspite of the tax break they would get down here.

Sin e if you consider Muller and Pienaer are tainted by racism please come out and say so openly - you reference to 'forgive the blacks in SA' is out of order as it implies guilt by association.
Having met the guys you could not be more wrong.

You also keep going on about them 'proselytising' within Ulster rugby club.
They do not do that it is a complete and utter lie

Sin é wrote:
I'm happy enough with BJ & Wian (not to mention Shaun Payne & Trev Halstead who actually won HCups) all from the same background as Muller, Pedrie & Pienaar, who don't seem to feel the need to preach to us natives as they thankfully came to just play rugby.

What are you on about? They are invited to preach in churches and other events where people are happy to hear them. Whats this 'preach to the natives' comment about? They arnt standing at half time blasting the terraces with scripture through megaphones. The bible study (which hasnt actually happened yet would be an open invite. Not forced upon them in the changing room.

Catch a grip Sin. This kind of anti christian thinking is getting ridiculous in the western world. Most people are man enough to accept others as they are. To me, theres a growing group of people using the argument of being oppressed by preachers as a sneaky reverse way of oppressing people who have a faith.

What kind of a cry baby would you be if you stamped your feet and said "no fair, yous arent allowed to be in this christian club, just because I dont like it". Grow up mate and show a bit of tolerence. The majority of us up here seem to actually be better at it than you.

THe number of players who have moved North to South is considerably higher than the other way round.

I can only think of Ronan McCormack and Jerry Cronin. (McCormish hardly counts as he is an Ulsterman)

They clearly prefer Galway and Dublin to Limerick - so would I.

MrsP wrote:It never ceases to amaze me when I see anyone condemn an entire racial group as racist.

Can they not see the irony?

Think you missed the point of that remark Mrs P. (a christian community who came from a country whose regime (and they) propped up apartheid was the point being made).

I think I understood you exactly.

I think we all understood you exactly SinE.

Nothing like using an argument about south african racial intolerance whilst in the process of showing intolerance to a group of foreign nationals who want to be open about their faith eh sin?

Sin é wrote:Same applies the other way around - I don't ever recall an Ulster born player coming to Munster - maybe the culture down here wouldn't suit them and they have all tended to go to england inspite of the tax break they would get down here.

Munster hasn't had a great deal of need of our players (although they should have gone for Whitten). Nor has Leinster. Ulster have been third best province for a while, and by a comfortable distance. (Not now, obviously.) Connacht do have need, and four players have gone there in the last two years. They will be able to avail of the tax break, no?

red_stag wrote:I think we all understood you exactly SinE.

Already the outright winner of the Most Concise Post That Speaks Volumes award 2012.

MrsP wrote:I think I understood you exactly.

Mrs P. calling me a racist? How very judgemental of you. Not very christian like

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:Same applies the other way around - I don't ever recall an Ulster born player coming to Munster - maybe the culture down here wouldn't suit them and they have all tended to go to england inspite of the tax break they would get down here.

Munster hasn't had a great deal of need of our players (although they should have gone for Whitten). Nor has Leinster. Ulster have been third best province for a while, and by a comfortable distance. (Not now, obviously.) Connacht do have need, and four players have gone there in the last two years. They will be able to avail of the tax break, no?

You'd have thought that there was a couple of players who could have come south might have like Roger Wilson, Neil Best, Steenson, Caldwell to Leinster for instance would have been good. Did Whitten express any interest in moving to Munster?

Seems pretty strange that not one has come south though. Leinster could have done with Best back then (prior to the emergence of O'Brien & mcLaughlin).

Sin é wrote:
I've said again and again, Mafi and anyone can pray at home or in his church, community etc. etc. but not proselytise in a shared working place. That is the only place I'm intollerant of it happening and I wouldn't be too happy if he was using his profile as a Munster Rugby player to preach.

Yes and you've been told again and again that Muller and Co don't 'proselytise' in a shared workspace, but in their own time with others of a similar outlook, who are there of their own choice and free will.

guys, please cool it, keep it civil.

From a south African perspective, we are still today tarred with the same brush of a political dispensation that was instituted before many of us were born, so when you take someone like Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they had nothing to do with the apartheid era. In fact any person born after 1964 could only vote in 1982/3 when there was the first refendum held by the National party on what the future political dispensation of south Africa would be.

Please keep that in mind when you start putting south african in conveniently categorised boxes.

clivemcl wrote:Nothing like using an argument about south african racial intolerance whilst in the process of showing intolerance to a group of foreign nationals who want to be open about their faith eh sin?

I have no issue with their faith. I just think they should keep it out of their workplace.

What exactly do you mean? I'm sure Mullers not going off on a tangent during his team talks. On the other hand, are you saying he's not allowed to have a conversation with someone about his faith whilst in the weights room?

That is oppression. And it challenges the idea of human rights.

Sadly this kind of mindset is prevelant even among those who call the shots in governement. But it is entirely and utterly wrong to prevent people from expressing their identity as long as that expression does not harm anyone else.

Sin é wrote:
Seems pretty strange that not one has come south though. Leinster could have done with Best back then (prior to the emergence of O'Brien & mcLaughlin).

Apart from the ones I mentioned, you mean?

And yeah. I'm sure Leinster woudl have bitten your hand off to take a troublesome head-the-ball who had driven players away from his last team and whose performances were rapidly deteriorating as his apathy and arrogance rose.

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Nothing like using an argument about south african racial intolerance whilst in the process of showing intolerance to a group of foreign nationals who want to be open about their faith eh sin?

I have no issue with their faith. I just think they should keep it out of their workplace.

Sin, I am not sure I understand what you mean by that. If they are devout christains and their teammates know it where's the problem. If they were forcing their religion down the throaght of their teammates then yes I agree with you, but there is nothing wrong with practicing your religion where ever you want to, as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's rights.

Hashim Amla is a devout Muslim, he practives his religion devoutly and not one of his teammates have any issue with that, he doesn't enforce his beliefs on others and goes about his business. nothing wrong there.

Whatever sportsmen do outside of their workplace it up to them, as long as it doesn't break with team protocol.

biltongbek wrote:guys, please cool it, keep it civil.

From a south African perspective, we are still today tarred with the same brush of a political dispensation that was instituted before many of us were born, so when you take someone like Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they had nothing to do with the apartheid era. In fact any person born after 1964 could only vote in 1982/3 when there was the first refendum held by the National party on what the future political dispensation of south Africa would be.

Please keep that in mind when you start putting south african in conveniently categorised boxes.

biltongbek - I'll try and explain what I'm getting at - the catholic church (supposedly christian) has lost a lot of credibility because it ignored abuse (condoned it?) in the past. People rightly question whether they have any moral authority now even though most people who are catholics had nothing to do with the abuses that took place.

TBH, it was a bit of a smart comment as I was told "they were able to forgive" - whereas coming from the ruling class who supported apartheid in SA, they didn't have a lot of forgiving to do.

biltongbek wrote:
Whatever sportsmen do outside of their workplace it up to them, as long as it doesn't break with team protocol.

Exactly.

Sin you make Richard Dawkins look like a member of the tea party man!

Ulster rugby is a sporting organisation with no religious affiliations! Stop making out like it is some kind of front for the Knights Templar!

And also, lets be clear that there is no evidence whatsoever that any Ulster player (Saffer or otherwise) has been forcing their religion down anyone’s throat.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Seems pretty strange that not one has come south though. Leinster could have done with Best back then (prior to the emergence of O'Brien & mcLaughlin).

Apart from the ones I mentioned, you mean?

And yeah. I'm sure Leinster woudl have bitten your hand off to take a troublesome head-the-ball who had driven players away from his last team and whose performances were rapidly deteriorating as his apathy and arrogance rose.

Cheika might have sorted Best's head out. If not, Brewer would have!

Sin é wrote:
biltongbek - I'll try and explain what I'm getting at - the catholic church (supposedly christian) has lost a lot of credibility because it ignored abuse (condoned it?) in the past. People rightly question whether they have any moral authority now even though most people who are catholics had nothing to do with the abuses that took place.

Are you for real?? You now are trying to make some kind of connection between Ulster rugby, of all places, and abuse carried out with in the Catholic church! Aw Jeebus the irony!

Sin é wrote:

biltongbek wrote:guys, please cool it, keep it civil.

From a south African perspective, we are still today tarred with the same brush of a political dispensation that was instituted before many of us were born, so when you take someone like Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they had nothing to do with the apartheid era. In fact any person born after 1964 could only vote in 1982/3 when there was the first refendum held by the National party on what the future political dispensation of south Africa would be.

Please keep that in mind when you start putting south african in conveniently categorised boxes.

biltongbek - I'll try and explain what I'm getting at - the catholic church (supposedly christian) has lost a lot of credibility because it ignored abuse (condoned it?) in the past. People rightly question whether they have any moral authority now even though most people who are catholics had nothing to do with the abuses that took place.

TBH, it was a bit of a smart comment as I was told "they were able to forgive" - whereas coming from the ruling class who supported apartheid in SA, they didn't have a lot of forgiving to do.

Sin, I am trying to understand what the catholic church has to do with Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they are acting as individuals paracticing their religion? This is about Ulster rugby and Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, two south africans who play rugby for the club and in their spare time do work in the community, or did I miss something?

Lads to be fair to SinE, I dont think he is making a connection between the Catholic Church abuse and Ulster.

I assume he is saying that the Catholic Church looked hypocritical preaching to be good when allowing abuse to go on. I would imagine he is saying that South African Christians would be hypocritical allowing apartheid to go on.

At least I think thats what he;s saying.

To be fair stag most of SinEs posts have revolved around the practicing of religon in the work place, to which he's been told umpteen times that Muller, Pienaar and co carry out their practices in their own time and it is nothing to do with the club.

You know he is just baiting for the sake of it as usual.

red_stag wrote:Lads to be fair to SinE, I dont think he is making a connection between the Catholic Church abuse and Ulster.

I assume he is saying that the Catholic Church looked hypocritical preaching to be good when allowing abuse to go on. I would imagine he is saying that South African Christians would be hypocritical allowing apartheid to go on.

At least I think thats what he;s saying.

Stag, the problem i have is that Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller has nothing to do with apartheid, they didn't vote for it, Pienaar was born in 1984, johan Muller was born in 1980.

Ruan was but 10 years old when the new political dispensation came into force, Muller was 14 years old. For the majority of their life they lived under the new dispensation.

Apartheid is gone, what's it got to do with the argument. In fact why is it part of the argument?

red_stag wrote:Lads to be fair to SinE, I dont think he is making a connection between the Catholic Church abuse and Ulster.

I assume he is saying that the Catholic Church looked hypocritical preaching to be good when allowing abuse to go on. I would imagine he is saying that South African Christians would be hypocritical allowing apartheid to go on.

At least I think thats what he;s saying.

And I'm sure Johan and Ruan et al would say sometimes ther are christians who have an outward appearance of a christian, and then theres others who have a genuine inward spiritual connection. And then even at that, they do not always make the correct choices. Christians believe there sins are forgiven, not that they are made capable of resisting temptation or deceit despite that being their hope and goal.

I'm sure with both the Catholic Church, and the Apartheid system there were many who claimed to be christians but werent, and there were also some who were christians but were misguided. They would also say that for those people the promise of forgiveness remains.

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Nothing like using an argument about south african racial intolerance whilst in the process of showing intolerance to a group of foreign nationals who want to be open about their faith eh sin?

I have no issue with their faith. I just think they should keep it out of their workplace.

For the nth time they do.

Just because you keep withering on with this lie doesn't change the fact it is a LIE. YOU ARE LYING about this