The Titanic and my best wishes to Ulster.

First topic message reminder :

The media have gone into overdrive on the tragedy a hundred years ago.

Much of this is mawkish and in the case of the Belfast Titanic Museum, cynical commercialism.

But at the root of it the Harland and Wolff was a deeply sectarian organisation which was in no way the last reason for the problems in northern Ireland in the 20th century.

That is why I want Ulster to do well. A side which spans the both the divide and the Irish nations to win the HEC in this centenary year would be welcome by pretty much every neutral (I hope).

biltongbek wrote:

red_stag wrote:Lads to be fair to SinE, I dont think he is making a connection between the Catholic Church abuse and Ulster.

I assume he is saying that the Catholic Church looked hypocritical preaching to be good when allowing abuse to go on. I would imagine he is saying that South African Christians would be hypocritical allowing apartheid to go on.

At least I think thats what he;s saying.

Stag, the problem i have is that Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller has nothing to do with apartheid, they didn't vote for it, Pienaar was born in 1984, johan Muller was born in 1980.

Ruan was but 10 years old when the new political dispensation came into force, Muller was 14 years old. For the majority of their life they lived under the new dispensation.

Apartheid is gone, what's it got to do with the argument. In fact why is it part of the argument?

Exactly and from what I have been told their viewpoint on Apartheid is one of deep disgust

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But it doesn't have anything to do with Ulster rugby. That has been pointed out about a million times now.

Indeed. it's something they do in their own personal time. This has been explained too. Happy going around in circles everybody.

I think you should read the Irish Times article where they say that one of the reasons the Saffers came to Ulster was because of the Christian ethos of the place (i.e., they didn't go somewhere else that doesn't have the same Christian ethos).

Of Northern Ireland Sin. There's a strong Christian community here. It's by no means all there is. There are Prods, Cafflicks and dissenters. Don't stereotype us, please.

biltongbek wrote:

red_stag wrote:Lads to be fair to SinE, I dont think he is making a connection between the Catholic Church abuse and Ulster.

I assume he is saying that the Catholic Church looked hypocritical preaching to be good when allowing abuse to go on. I would imagine he is saying that South African Christians would be hypocritical allowing apartheid to go on.

At least I think thats what he;s saying.

Stag, the problem i have is that Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller has nothing to do with apartheid, they didn't vote for it, Pienaar was born in 1984, johan Muller was born in 1980.

Ruan was but 10 years old when the new political dispensation came into force, Muller was 14 years old. For the majority of their life they lived under the new dispensation.

Apartheid is gone, what's it got to do with the argument. In fact why is it part of the argument?

Oh Biltong your completely right. It isn't part of the argument and of course he is wrong.

However just pointing out what he is saying.

Sin é wrote: You'd have thought that there was a couple of players who could have come south might have like Roger Wilson, Neil Best, Steenson, Caldwell to Leinster for instance would have been good. Did Whitten express any interest in moving to Munster?

As far as I aware none of the Southern Provinces showed any interest in the players above so the situation doesn't arise.

In recent years we have seen Boss and Shawe play for Leinster
Anderson, McCrea, Faloon and NOC move to Connacht

Please - the situation at Ulster with regard to rugby and Ulster's direction on the field would have been uppermost in Pienaar's mind - having confidence in David Humphreys and his ability to drive that through would be the clincher

Feeling culturally happy would have been next - after all I guess his family his over and maybe he has children etc I don't know - whatever, it's no real business being on the sports pages of the Irish Times

As I thought I said earlier I haven't seen too many articles on the role of Jesuits in Irish rugby recently for example - in the sports pages at any rate

What the article in the Irish Times should have said is that if Humphreys can persuade a player Pienaar to come to Ireland then maybe he should be running Irish rugby - that might have been more helpful

biltongbek wrote:

Sin é wrote:

biltongbek wrote:guys, please cool it, keep it civil.

From a south African perspective, we are still today tarred with the same brush of a political dispensation that was instituted before many of us were born, so when you take someone like Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they had nothing to do with the apartheid era. In fact any person born after 1964 could only vote in 1982/3 when there was the first refendum held by the National party on what the future political dispensation of south Africa would be.

Please keep that in mind when you start putting south african in conveniently categorised boxes.

biltongbek - I'll try and explain what I'm getting at - the catholic church (supposedly christian) has lost a lot of credibility because it ignored abuse (condoned it?) in the past. People rightly question whether they have any moral authority now even though most people who are catholics had nothing to do with the abuses that took place.

TBH, it was a bit of a smart comment as I was told "they were able to forgive" - whereas coming from the ruling class who supported apartheid in SA, they didn't have a lot of forgiving to do.

Sin, I am trying to understand what the catholic church has to do with Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, they are acting as individuals paracticing their religion? This is about Ulster rugby and Ruan Pienaar and Johan Muller, two south africans who play rugby for the club and in their spare time do work in the community, or did I miss something?

Just showing an example of how religion isn't to be always right/to be trusted. I used the catholic church abuses as a fairly recent obvious example of religion not being 'christian'. Not too long ago, the same christian ethos that these players grew up with, didn't think there was anything unchristian about apartheid.

Muller:
“There was an evangelist over from Manchester and out of nowhere he said, ‘sir, can you stand up’ pointing at me. I did as I was told, and I was kind of shocked, but then he said ‘God has opened a door for you and he wants you to take it’. The guy told me he saw me over here and was using me for his works. It was a wonderful confirmation and we didn’t need to think twice.”

He talks about setting up bible reading sessions and praying before and after games back in SA. He wants to get bible reading sessions going in Ulster. This is the club captain. I just don't think any of this has any place in a dressing room when it is likely that a few might actually share his beliefs.

Muller and co's opinion on apartheid are totally irrelevent.

Individually they are not responsible for Apartheid and Ulster rugby is certainly not responsible for Apartheid.

There is no connection whatsoever between Ulster rugby and either Apartheid or abuse within the Catholic church!

Sin é wrote: He wants to get bible reading sessions going in Ulster.

Your evidence is what ?

It doesn't happen by the way

Ugh - Wilson was to Trinity College and only moved to Queens Belfast at the request of Ulster Rugby when they signed him up for obvious reasons

Heaslip is at Leinster and he went to Northampton because of the coaching set up

Sin e I think you are the one showing signs of intolerance with respect to religion here.

I say that as fully paid up atheist myself

SinE but its not happening IN THE DRESSING ROOM,

Are you seriously suggesting that a public figure should never be allowed to have a religion in case it influences somebody.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: He wants to get bible reading sessions going in Ulster.

Your evidence is what ?

It doesn't happen by the way

Sin, the SA cricket team did and still does that, for those who want to partake. It is not enforced, only for those who want to share their christianity. I assume if it is to happen, that is how it will be done.

red_stag wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that a public figure should never be allowed to have a religion in case it influences somebody.

No he's already said that its fine for Munster players.

Croyman wrote:Ugh - Wilson was to Trinity College and only moved to Queens Belfast at the request of Ulster Rugby when they signed him up for obvious reasons

Heaslip is at Leinster and he went to Northampton because of the coaching set up

So the tax situation down here wasn't a big draw then?

you're being a bit over cynical - Wilson made his decision on going to where he thought he would make the most progress rugby wise

Having read up to date on this thread, it seems like Sin is just throwing a lot of Poopie out there and seeing what sticks. And jumping to some pretty mad conclusions.

This thread isn't reflecting well on you as a person man. I suggest you read back and have a think. You didn't need to invoke Apartheid and abuse within the Catholic Church- somewhat extreme comparisons for a dressing room where some people are religious and some people aren't and they all seem to get on very well together!

You're not bringing this article you cite to my attention; I read it a long time ago. There are obviously boundaries that have to be respected- but you seem willing to twist logic to make it seem like Ulster isn't a place where these boundaries are respected. These guys don't make a secret of their religion but they seem tolerant and respectful of those that don't. You haven't managed to find anything that would dispute that.

I'm not religious at all, I'm pretty much a card carrying atheist, but I have no problem if other people are. And I would hate it and feel deeply uncomfortable if I was in a workplace situation where religion was forced upon me. But as much as I expect my views to be respected I will always respect others with differing views. Tolerance cuts both ways. Try and remember that in future; it's not the Christian Saffers that seem intolerant here.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: He wants to get bible reading sessions going in Ulster.

Your evidence is what ?

It doesn't happen by the way

Said it in the Irish Times article. And he also said regretfully it didn't happen in Ulster. But it won't be long now since about half the squad and The Boss (who gives out the contracts) seem to be that way inclined.

Sin é wrote:

Croyman wrote:Ugh - Wilson was to Trinity College and only moved to Queens Belfast at the request of Ulster Rugby when they signed him up for obvious reasons

Heaslip is at Leinster and he went to Northampton because of the coaching set up

So the tax situation down here wasn't a big draw then?

It's a Tax rebate sin. The incentive is to retire in Southern Ireland, not to move down to play.

biltongbek wrote:Sin, that is enough now, if you want to discuss off topic issues, open a thread for it, I am removing your post.

Fair enough. Your right. Religion (and various beliefs) should not be discussed here or practicised in a rugby dressing room.

So you will dictate to people they don't have freedom of religion?

Being intolerant and a constant shoitestirrer should be practised nowhere

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Croyman wrote:Ugh - Wilson was to Trinity College and only moved to Queens Belfast at the request of Ulster Rugby when they signed him up for obvious reasons

Heaslip is at Leinster and he went to Northampton because of the coaching set up

So the tax situation down here wasn't a big draw then?

It's a Tax rebate sin. The incentive is to retire in Southern Ireland, not to move down to play.

To be worth anything, you have to play here for a few years

Sin, for the 10th time, I went to hear Muller and Pienaar speak. Yes, Muller also told that story of the preacher from Manchester. Yes, he mentioned back in SA there was a strong christian culture. The christians (key word, remember that) prayed/studied the bible before or after games, and during the week, in their own time. Muller believed after hearing the preacher from Manchester say that to him, he was being called to go to Ulster. In your mind, you think that means he has some sort of secret mission to convert the entire Ulster team into christians. Sorry, but that is just ridiculous.

Muller outright said he would never walk around with a bible in his hand trying to preach the bible or convert people. He doesn't believe that is right. He said that he leaves the bible studies/prayer time that he and the christians have open to anyone who wants to join. He does not ask anyone to join him, he does not try and preach to those who do not want to hear. He simply gives them the offer to ask questions or come to the sessions. He is not trying to convert anyone. Obviously since it is peoples own choices, he can't anyway. It is up to them.

Not to mention all of this actually has NOTHING to do with Ulster rugby. Nothing at all. This is completely separate from the rugby.

biltongbek wrote:So you will dictate to people they don't have freedom of religion?

They should have freedom to practice their religion in appropriate places (but not in a shared workspace).

Sin é wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Sin, that is enough now, if you want to discuss off topic issues, open a thread for it, I am removing your post.

Fair enough. Your right. Religion (and various beliefs) should not be discussed here or practicised in a rugby dressing room.

Wasn't it you who brought up the discussion of religion in the first place?

I flipping know that! Thats what I'm telling you, hence I don't know why you think it should be a big draw for Northern players to move down!

Sin é wrote:

biltongbek wrote:So you will dictate to people they don't have freedom of religion?

They should have freedom to practice their religion in appropriate places (but not in a shared workspace).

You don't think Church is an appropriate place?

now where were we? religon in the workplace/sportsground wasn't it

Kingshu wrote:now where were we? religon in the workplace/sportsground wasn't it

I read the newspaper article mentioned and do feel that Sin e has been very selected in his quotings. Many of the extrapolations made are highly dubious from what was actually written.

I also note with interest that the following were not mentioned.

Spence
“There’s a group of 30 lads here, and the banter won’t change amongst us, nor would I want it to. There’s no divide amongst the Christians and the non-Christians”

Muller
”we don’t want to force the Bible down anybody’s throat.”

Wannenburg
“Here, some players do pray, but it’s a personal thing, you do it in your own time.”


Those quotes give a very different impression from what Sin e said

Pax guys.

The post was a celebration of how Irish (and Ulster in particular) rugby represents a superb model of how the game can transcend the politico-religious divides.

All I'd say is that after requesting Biltong to re-open this post, that you maintain a sensible level of maturity.

How about doing another article about rugby union in the north of England transcending the socio- economic divide?

Or how the success of the woman's game in England is transcending the gender divide?

BoyneRFC wrote:How about doing another article about rugby union in the north of England transcending the socio- economic divide?

Or how the success of the woman's game in England is transcending the gender divide?

You do 'em Boyne. Neither of those are mine. In the meantime I'll celebrate the fact that Irish rugby represents the very best way in which political and religious divisions can be set aside for sport.

Portnoy wrote:

BoyneRFC wrote:How about doing another article about rugby union in the north of England transcending the socio- economic divide?

Or how the success of the woman's game in England is transcending the gender divide?

You do 'em Boyne. Neither of those are mine. In the meantime I'll celebrate the fact that Irish rugby represents the very best way in which political and religious divisions can be set aside for sport.

You do that.

talking about transcending the politico-religious divides. I think I'll give a bit of background to change subject but still keep it on edge a little.

Back in the 50's Ulster rarely (if ever) selected Catholic players, my auld fella felt that Ulster should have been selecting him durning this era but weren't because of his religion. He played Leinster schoolboys rugby with an Irish great and was the one to get the write ups. He got invited for a trail with Leinster but retired from rugby due to work.

When Ulster won the h-cup we wanted them to win, but it wasn't any more support than if it was Munster or Leinster.

At the time I think he may have supported Leinster above Ulster (who could blame him) and I would have followed. It was a close call.

The saving grace (from nearly being a blue) was my brother took the auld fella and myself to an Ulster game, and we loved it, weren't as many NI flags etc as we feared, and have been big Ulster fans since.

The reason I bring this up is it it does show how past can effect present, and how far Ulster have come. I know in certain areas in Ulster you are more likly to see Leinster or Munster tops, partly because the way Ulster are viewed and partly because these are the more successfull teams for bandwagon fans.

Ulster have worked hard to be inclusive, and I hope it now gets recongised. cos once you've been to Ravenhill there is no supporting any other team, being on TV will have helped fans see this without going.

I hope that with Ulster being in the semi's and good chance of the final that the bandwagon fans switch to their own province.

Hopefully after this year we see less Leinster and Munster tops and more Ulster tops throughout Ulster. Beacause of TV and success, and the older generation seeing how Ulster rugby has changed.

Kingshu,

Thanks for sharing that Kingshu. An interesting, eye opening and uplifting read sir .

Kingshu wrote:talking about transcending the politico-religious divides. I think I'll give a bit of background to change subject but still keep it on edge a little.

Back in the 50's Ulster rarely (if ever) selected Catholic players, my auld fella felt that Ulster should have been selecting him durning this era but weren't because of his religion. He played Leinster schoolboys rugby with an Irish great and was the one to get the write ups. He got invited for a trail with Leinster but retired from rugby due to work.

When Ulster won the h-cup we wanted them to win, but it wasn't any more support than if it was Munster or Leinster.

At the time I think he may have supported Leinster above Ulster (who could blame him) and I would have followed. It was a close call.

The saving grace (from nearly being a blue) was my brother took the auld fella and myself to an Ulster game, and we loved it, weren't as many NI flags etc as we feared, and have been big Ulster fans since.

The reason I bring this up is it it does show how past can effect present, and how far Ulster have come. I know in certain areas in Ulster you are more likly to see Leinster or Munster tops, partly because the way Ulster are viewed and partly because these are the more successfull teams for bandwagon fans.

Ulster have worked hard to be inclusive, and I hope it now gets recongised. cos once you've been to Ravenhill there is no supporting any other team, being on TV will have helped fans see this without going.

I hope that with Ulster being in the semi's and good chance of the final that the bandwagon fans switch to their own province.

Hopefully after this year we see less Leinster and Munster tops and more Ulster tops throughout Ulster. Beacause of TV and success, and the older generation seeing how Ulster rugby has changed.

Is an important point. At some stage Ulster has shed its sectarian divisions. The fact that few (if any) Catholics played for Ulster probably says as much about the left-footers as the others.

The GAA has more to do with maintaining and underpinning the sporting divides than most in Ireland.

In football NI went with the schism and the likes of Neil Lennon are still paying the price (whilst Martin O'Neill does not).

But Rugby (as just a game) does not generally get inveigled in all this unseemly real-world stuff.

Congrats Irish rugby!

Experiences of any Southern team playing in Ulster in the 80s (for example) was not great. A lot of ex Rugby players in their 40s and 50s can remember those days and it would still affect their perception of Ulster Rugby.

Many of them would not have been in Northern Ireland since those days and would not know how it has changed. (Certainly in Rugby playing circles anyway)

I would be interested in the reverse perception. (Club players from NI who traveled to Leinster and Munster back then) To see how they were treated/made feel.

Portnoy wrote:

Kingshu wrote:talking about transcending the politico-religious divides. I think I'll give a bit of background to change subject but still keep it on edge a little.

Back in the 50's Ulster rarely (if ever) selected Catholic players, my auld fella felt that Ulster should have been selecting him durning this era but weren't because of his religion. He played Leinster schoolboys rugby with an Irish great and was the one to get the write ups. He got invited for a trail with Leinster but retired from rugby due to work.

When Ulster won the h-cup we wanted them to win, but it wasn't any more support than if it was Munster or Leinster.

At the time I think he may have supported Leinster above Ulster (who could blame him) and I would have followed. It was a close call.

The saving grace (from nearly being a blue) was my brother took the auld fella and myself to an Ulster game, and we loved it, weren't as many NI flags etc as we feared, and have been big Ulster fans since.

The reason I bring this up is it it does show how past can effect present, and how far Ulster have come. I know in certain areas in Ulster you are more likly to see Leinster or Munster tops, partly because the way Ulster are viewed and partly because these are the more successfull teams for bandwagon fans.

Ulster have worked hard to be inclusive, and I hope it now gets recongised. cos once you've been to Ravenhill there is no supporting any other team, being on TV will have helped fans see this without going.

I hope that with Ulster being in the semi's and good chance of the final that the bandwagon fans switch to their own province.

Hopefully after this year we see less Leinster and Munster tops and more Ulster tops throughout Ulster. Beacause of TV and success, and the older generation seeing how Ulster rugby has changed.

Is an important point. At some stage Ulster has shed its sectarian divisions. The fact that few (if any) Catholics played for Ulster probably says as much about the left-footers as the others.

The GAA has more to do with maintaining and underpinning the sporting divides than most in Ireland.

In football NI went with the schism and the likes of Neil Lennon are still paying the price (whilst Martin O'Neill does not).

But Rugby (as just a game) does not generally get inveigled in all this unseemly real-world stuff.

Congrats Irish rugby!

Portnoys, why would you say that? The GAA has reinvented itself in that regard.

Ulster rugby started shed all this nonsense in the late 90's.

I would not be a season ticket holder if it hadn't

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster rugby started shed all this nonsense in the late 90's.

I would not be a season ticket holder if it hadn't

I think the Final in 99 changed a lot of hearts and minds. Especially when they saw us lot lining the roads to cheer them on.

We are hoping for more of the same this year Jenny!

I think you are right. The warmth of the welcome, from the locals that day, meant a lot.

Hope you are ready to do the same next Saturday

MrsP wrote:We are hoping for more of the same this year Jenny!

I would have been there. I actually bought 4 tickets, because I can't afford Bordeaux. Sadly family commitments mean I will have to watch it on the telly. But I will be sending 4 other Leinstermen in my place. 2 of them are brothers who's Da is a Prod from Norn Iron and who's Ma is an ex nun. I kid you not.

If I thought that Ulster rugby was a sectarian or non inclusive organisation then I wouldn't support them.

Its for this reason that I find it hard to feel particularly enthusiastic about Soccer or GAA up here. I've nothing against those sports or the teams involved but I don't feel represented by them in the same way I do Ulster rugby.

Religon and politics have no place in sport.

I was disappointed to see some of the flags waved down in Limerick by Ulster supporters but hey ho what can you do.....

I'll have a flag in Dublin but it will be definitely be a 9 counties one.

Not only is the only truly representative only - its a nicer looking flag as well.

Mind you a little saffers flag wouldn't go a miss - if only to annoy Farrelly