The three "newest" teams perfomances..

Caterham (formerly Lotus) Marussia (formerly Virgin and HRT have been on the grid now since 2010. The first year of course was just getting the basics sorted and we saw Lotus and Virgin in a close battle, many thought that would only be temporary as Lotus in particular had a solid budget, good drivers and some established people in their technical department. However these three teams are now in their third season and frankly just seem in exactly the same position in relevance to the front of the grid that they were when they started out. The question is does anyone have a reason as to why they seem to be making no progress? Q1 used to be exciting with some big drivers occasionally getting knocked out, now it's just the 3 three teams at the back and an STR.

I feel like i'm waffling but the likes of Kovalinen and Glock who are good drivers, do you think they will say stuff this? because it must be tough for guys who have been battling for podiums multiple times to see qualifying 18th as a great performance.

I always said that a new team should be given two seasons to build their foundations and then in there third season be judged. In my opinion, they've been appaling. I really expected a huge improvement from Caterham this season and with Mike Gascoyne, an experienced head, I thought they would be competitive in terms of challenging the mid-pack. Unfortunately it hasn't happened and, yes, Q1 has become rather a dull twenty minutes which is rather predictable. HRT are an embarrasment, no backing, no finance.......quite frankly a poor team with absymal OAP drivers who are more like traffic cones than moving cars.

The first year of course was just getting the basics sorted and we saw Lotus and Virgin in a close battle, many thought that would only be temporary as Lotus in particular had a solid budget, good drivers and some established people in their technical department.

I don't think many WILL have thought that. I certainly didn't. Don't forget there is no comparison between the Lotus of yesteryear and Lotus/Caterham. Mainly because F1 has developed almost out of all recognition since Colin Chapman was involved in the sport.

True, I was hoping Caterham would have become a midfield runner by now, but don't forget that for every step forward they make, the teams further up the grid are taking 2 or 3, so basically they are running just to stay in place.

Virgin will take even longer to start making progress because their baseline car was pretty hopeless, designed entirely on computer and god only knows with HRT.

Car development and progress depends on so many things, some obvious and some less so:

- Money
- Engineering staff
- Facilities
- Supplier deals
- Driver input
- Experience / Historical Data

In a nutshell, its all about finances, facilities and data. Larger teams with more money and better / dedicated facilities can use them to make bigger advances. Smaller teams don't have these luxuries (smaller budgets, shared facilities etc.)

This is where experienced engineers and drivers, combined with historical data (knowing what has/hasn't worked in the past) can be invaluable. However, 2 seasons isn't much time when you're essentially starting from scratch.

Its probably tough for drivers like Glock and Kovaleinen, but it beats being a reserve driver with a bigger team, or without a seat altogether.

I reckon it could take another 2-3 seasons before they start giving the likes of Toro Rosso, Force India etc. something to worry about (assuming they don't bow out before then).

John wrote:I always said that a new team should be given two seasons to build their foundations and then in there third season be judged. In my opinion, they've been appaling. I really expected a huge improvement from Caterham this season and with Mike Gascoyne, an experienced head, I thought they would be competitive in terms of challenging the mid-pack. Unfortunately it hasn't happened and, yes, Q1 has become rather a dull twenty minutes which is rather predictable. HRT are an embarrasment, no backing, no finance.......quite frankly a poor team with absymal OAP drivers who are more like traffic cones than moving cars.

Think thats a harsh assessment, given these teams were started from scratch (not rebranded Arrows, Minardi, Honda etc.)

Yes, they have been poor, but 2 seasons isn't much time when you're competing against bigger, better financed and more experienced teams. I also can't remember the last time Mike Gascoyne was involved with a successful team...must've been a good few years ago.

They don't have the advantages of sharing engines, gearboxes etc. like Force India, Toro Rosso and Sauber - apart from Caterham using Renault engines (just shows how important the aerodynamics and chassis are).

Will agree HRT are consistenly awful in that they are much further off the pace than the others...but then they also have the added disadvantage of having the worst drivers.


Anyway, its generally accepted you have to run just to standstill in F1 and these teams are still learning to walk, so I think it might be fairer to evaluate them in another 2-3 years.

It's more the fact that they really just haven't seemed to have made any improvement whatsoever in relation to the field. In some way's i would say Lotus and Virgin started off reasonably well, usually 2.5 -3 seconds off the pace in their first season but have made no road's in since.

Imo Gascoyne is ridiculously overrated, he had a good first season with Toyota and did well with Jordan in 1999 but other than that he's overseen some pretty horrendous season's. Didn't achieve anything with Spyker/Force India, oversaw one of the worst Benetton's in history in 2001. The money being pumped in to these team's may not be vast, especially in HRT'S case but if they are miles off the point's again by the end of the season then i would question if they will be around much longer. Between the six drivers in around 40 GP's the best result as far as i know has been 12th. Question's need to be asked.

Monty
I think your recollection isn't that accurate, in that Lotus and Virgin were more like 4 seconds off the pace at the front (and HRT have spent their entire existence battling the 107% rule). I think Caterham have actually made a decent step forwards this year, but the problem is that the teams that this should have put them competing with based on last year's form (Williams in particular, STR and Sauber to a lesser extent) have made bigger steps to now be running comparably with the likes of Ferrari.

As such, it's not so much that Caterham aren't running the pace of the lower midfield, more that the lower midfield no longer exists and everyone in front of them is close enough to fight for the points in a genuinely competetive race - look at yesterday's results: the same interval between Rosberg and Button on the penultimate lap (about 25 seconds) then covered everyone down to Vergne.

Best race lap times have Kovi in the low 41s, Petrov in the low 42s (I guess HK changed tyres late in the race, having had to slow). By comparison, the best lap was by Kobayashi just into the 39s, and Rosberg was in the high 40s. So the gap is 'only' a couple of seconds. Last year this would definitely have put them close to the midfield. This year not so much.

I was hoping Caterham would be at least fighting for 14th and 15th, but so far it hasnt been the case. HRT and Marussia well, im afraid to say i cant see them making any improvements.

I wouldnt say those teams have improved at all but in relation to the rest of the field, they could have caught up a little but then the rest of the field have pulled away that little bit more so the proportions are the same as they were last year. Thats how it looks to me anyway.

Saying that its early days in the season so lets see what they can do. Caterham have KERS so thats got to be something hasnt it.

One question, if KERS is in the regs why arent hte lesser teams been helped to get it onto the car. Or is it that its optional - bit unfair introducing it and teams not actually being able to afford it. Maybe someone can shine some light onto that subject for me.

Problem the lesser teams have got, well mainly marussia and HRT (it was HRT i noticed it most with tbh), but both have a complete lack of sponsors, so not so much cash coming in. Which has an affect on the development. Vicious circle really as they need performance to get sponsors and need sponsors to get money to help development, which then goes towards..... you get the idea.

dummy_half wrote:Monty
I think your recollection isn't that accurate, in that Lotus and Virgin were more like 4 seconds off the pace at the front (and HRT have spent their entire existence battling the 107% rule). I think Caterham have actually made a decent step forwards this year, but the problem is that the teams that this should have put them competing with based on last year's form (Williams in particular, STR and Sauber to a lesser extent) have made bigger steps to now be running comparably with the likes of Ferrari.

As such, it's not so much that Caterham aren't running the pace of the lower midfield, more that the lower midfield no longer exists and everyone in front of them is close enough to fight for the points in a genuinely competetive race - look at yesterday's results: the same interval between Rosberg and Button on the penultimate lap (about 25 seconds) then covered everyone down to Vergne.

Best race lap times have Kovi in the low 41s, Petrov in the low 42s (I guess HK changed tyres late in the race, having had to slow). By comparison, the best lap was by Kobayashi just into the 39s, and Rosberg was in the high 40s. So the gap is 'only' a couple of seconds. Last year this would definitely have put them close to the midfield. This year not so much.

Not really, Caterham haven't improved at all. For example even China last year, Kovalinen finished ahead of one of the Williams cars, certainly wasn't challenging any of the midfielders this season. Maybe they have cut the overall gap by a few tenths, but ultimately they are still no where near midfield runners, meaning they have not improved from where they started in 2010, which was then tenth quickest of the 12 teams. I never read anything in to the fastest laps, a lot of guys ran over 20 laps on they're last set of tyres whilst Heikki made a late stop and was running on the freshest tyres on the track.

I could be wrong, but I think Caterham are at another disadvantage in that they still don't have a KERS system.

Don't know if the same is true of Marussia and HRT but they're underpowered anyway, since they're using Cosworth engines (sad to say that, as Cosworth have had a fair bit of success in F1).

When you consider Toro Rosso and Sauber use Ferrari engines, Force India have Mercedes power plants and Williams are back in partnership with Renault...combine that with those teams' greater experience and expertise, its not that surprising the new boys are continuing to struggle.

Anyway, back to the points I was making earlier. Lotus/Caterham, Virgin/Marussia and HRT have relatively modest budgets (though Marussia's finances may be improved with the new ownership). The limited finances will have a big impact on how much development and testing they can do over the winter, so even with experienced drivers like DLR, Glock and Kovi, they will get that much less feedback on how well any changes / upgrades work.

So, they're pretty much stymied in every avenue they might try.

Marussia might make some big leaps forward over the next couple of seasons if the new owners pump some decent cash into the team. I think Caterham and HRT will be relying on sharing more tech with the bigger teams and perhaps shaking up their staff to get better aero and chassis engineers.

Im thought Caterham did have KERS??

Just checked CM and it seems they are using KERS this year...so at least thats not an excuse.

Think they still have an awful lot of catching up to do in terms of aerodynamics and chassis design though. I doubt they have the kind of people that come up with stuff like double diffusers, F-ducts and clever exhaust systems.

Yeah thats it, KERS alone wont allow them to catch up.

I always felt they made a mistake when deciding the teams to come into F1 thought Prodrive and Villenueve's lot would of done a better just then Marussia and Hispania