20 seasons - The Centre Back

First topic message reminder :

It's the list of centre backs back now and this time please pick 2 that you feel were the greatest to have graced the Premier league since it's inception 20 years ago.

Tony Adams
Steve Bruce
Sol Campbell
Jamie Carragher
Marcel Desailly
Rio Ferdinand
Paul McGrath
Jaap Stam
John Terry
Nemanja Vidic

Also do you think there are any centre backs that should have made the list?

In terms of natural talent, Terry is somewhere around 8th on this list for me. His desire and work rate gets him higher than others, but I agree with Viva on a lot of what he is saying.

Ferdinand a sulk? What do you mean by that? He said it himself on Twitter when United lose he can't take it and is a bad loser. I rather have someone like that at my club then someone who forgets about the loss straight away.

I'm not trying to be biased but Sir Alex does not make anyone a captain at Manchester United Football Club certainly not someone who is not a good leader. Ferdinand has been brilliant for us when captain and he does not need the captains bad to lead a team. You could see leadership quality when he was at West Ham, didn't Leeds make him captain at 21?

Ferdinand always plays for the team not the other way.

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Ferdinand a sulk? What do you mean by that? He said it himself on Twitter when United lose he can't take it and is a bad loser. I rather have someone like that at my club then someone who forgets about the loss straight away.

I'm not trying to be biased but Sir Alex does not make anyone a captain at Manchester United Football Club certainly not someone who is not a good leader. Ferdinand has been brilliant for us when captain and he does not need the captains bad to lead a team. You could see leadership quality when he was at West Ham, didn't Leeds make him captain at 21?

Ferdinand always plays for the team not the other way.

Maybe sulker was the wrong word but he has in the past looked to blame anyone bar himself when a mistake has been made. Not always of course. Also, I never said he liked losing, who does?

As a on the pitch leader though, Terry is better and that's one quality he as over Rio.

to be fair, Sir Alex did make Evra captain at some point, Domenech promptly copied him (in fact he basically said "if Evra's good enough for Sir Alex he's good enough for me) and we saw how that one worked out..

I do think Ferdinand's a good leader, but IMO (and those of a few others better placed to judge) he's not as good a leader as Terry. I have no problem with people not picking Terry, but to say he doesn't deserve to be on the list is ridiculous IMO.

Stella wrote:

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Ferdinand a sulk? What do you mean by that? He said it himself on Twitter when United lose he can't take it and is a bad loser. I rather have someone like that at my club then someone who forgets about the loss straight away.

I'm not trying to be biased but Sir Alex does not make anyone a captain at Manchester United Football Club certainly not someone who is not a good leader. Ferdinand has been brilliant for us when captain and he does not need the captains bad to lead a team. You could see leadership quality when he was at West Ham, didn't Leeds make him captain at 21?

Ferdinand always plays for the team not the other way.

Maybe sulker was the wrong word but he has in the past looked to blame anyone bar himself when a mistake has been made. Not always of course. Also, I never said he liked losing, who does?

As a on the pitch leader though, Terry is better and that's one quality he as over Rio.

The one and only...

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Stella wrote:

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Ferdinand a sulk? What do you mean by that? He said it himself on Twitter when United lose he can't take it and is a bad loser. I rather have someone like that at my club then someone who forgets about the loss straight away.

I'm not trying to be biased but Sir Alex does not make anyone a captain at Manchester United Football Club certainly not someone who is not a good leader. Ferdinand has been brilliant for us when captain and he does not need the captains bad to lead a team. You could see leadership quality when he was at West Ham, didn't Leeds make him captain at 21?

Ferdinand always plays for the team not the other way.

Maybe sulker was the wrong word but he has in the past looked to blame anyone bar himself when a mistake has been made. Not always of course. Also, I never said he liked losing, who does?

As a on the pitch leader though, Terry is better and that's one quality he as over Rio.

The one and only...

Scores more

Firstly I never said Terry is a poor leader and it's because Ferdinand has been picking up injuries why he is not captain anymore. I've seen loads of players blame teammates for a mistake especially keepers Ferdinand is not the only one who does it and won't be the last.

As a defender goalscoring is not a priority, and Ferdinand does not cause frictions in dressing rooms. Good luck to the manager who picks Terry for the Euros, wonder how the black players will react to that.

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Firstly I never said Terry is a poor leader and it's because Ferdinand has been picking up injuries why he is not captain anymore. I've seen loads of players blame teammates for a mistake especially keepers Ferdinand is not the only one who does it and won't be the last.

As a defender goalscoring is not a priority, and Ferdinand does not cause frictions in dressing rooms. Good luck to the manager who picks Terry for the Euros, wonder how the black players will react to that.

I never said you did???

IMO a good leader will hold his hands up to a mistake and not shrug his shoulders, and that's why I don't think he's a good leader. My scores more comment had a double meaning of course but you may pick a player of similar ability for your team if he can score the odd goal.

As for the off the field stuff, I agree that he may not be the most popular.

I hope he doesnt pick him- time to leave terry to it- good footballer and probally a half decent guy(i say that very loosly however).

but he isnt what england need this euro's on many levels

Stella wrote:

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Firstly I never said Terry is a poor leader and it's because Ferdinand has been picking up injuries why he is not captain anymore. I've seen loads of players blame teammates for a mistake especially keepers Ferdinand is not the only one who does it and won't be the last.

As a defender goalscoring is not a priority, and Ferdinand does not cause frictions in dressing rooms. Good luck to the manager who picks Terry for the Euros, wonder how the black players will react to that.

I never said you did???

IMO a good leader will hold his hands up to a mistake and not shrug his shoulders, and that's why I don't think he's a good leader. My scores more comment had a double meaning of course but you may pick a player of similar ability for your team if he can score the odd goal.

As for the off the field stuff, I agree that he may not be the most popular.

The leader thing wasn't aimed at you sorry. I've watched interviews/Twitter where Ferdinand has admitted the better team won (When we lose) didn't use excuses.

VivaPaulScholes wrote:

Stella wrote:

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Firstly I never said Terry is a poor leader and it's because Ferdinand has been picking up injuries why he is not captain anymore. I've seen loads of players blame teammates for a mistake especially keepers Ferdinand is not the only one who does it and won't be the last.

As a defender goalscoring is not a priority, and Ferdinand does not cause frictions in dressing rooms. Good luck to the manager who picks Terry for the Euros, wonder how the black players will react to that.

I never said you did???

IMO a good leader will hold his hands up to a mistake and not shrug his shoulders, and that's why I don't think he's a good leader. My scores more comment had a double meaning of course but you may pick a player of similar ability for your team if he can score the odd goal.

As for the off the field stuff, I agree that he may not be the most popular.

The leader thing wasn't aimed at you sorry. I've watched interviews/Twitter where Ferdinand has admitted the better team won (When we lose) didn't use excuses.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I'm not knocking the guy just pointing out that on the field, he's not a good leader compared to a Terry/Keane, IMO of course

Stella wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Stella wrote:

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Ferdinand a sulk? What do you mean by that? He said it himself on Twitter when United lose he can't take it and is a bad loser. I rather have someone like that at my club then someone who forgets about the loss straight away.

I'm not trying to be biased but Sir Alex does not make anyone a captain at Manchester United Football Club certainly not someone who is not a good leader. Ferdinand has been brilliant for us when captain and he does not need the captains bad to lead a team. You could see leadership quality when he was at West Ham, didn't Leeds make him captain at 21?

Ferdinand always plays for the team not the other way.

Maybe sulker was the wrong word but he has in the past looked to blame anyone bar himself when a mistake has been made. Not always of course. Also, I never said he liked losing, who does?

As a on the pitch leader though, Terry is better and that's one quality he as over Rio.

The one and only...

Scores more

I don't consider that an attribute. Even a 'high-scoring' defender like Terry only averages 4 goals a season. That's not a contribution worth considering. If he was a set piece specialist likely to get many more, plus assists, then it's a worthwhile point (I'm thinking Sinisa Mijailovic for Lazio [from memory]) but 4 goals a season is nothing.

Being captain of a team is not just shouting very loudly, sorry I don't know how someone who has allegations of racism on his shoulder and slept with an ex teammates girlfriend (Even if she wasn't with the player at the time) can be considered a great captain.

For me a captain has to be someone who has the respect of everyone in the team and I doubt Terry is backed by everyone. Someone who can represent a team doing public shows and is not an embrassment to the side.

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Being captain of a team is not just shouting very loudly, sorry I don't know how someone who has allegations of racism on his shoulder and slept with an ex teammates girlfriend (Even if she wasn't with the player at the time) can be considered a great captain.

For me a captain has to be someone who has the respect of everyone in the team and I doubt Terry is backed by everyone. Someone who can represent a team doing public shows and is not an embrassment to the side.

I know it's not all about shouting (Beckham vs Greece) but a good leader does NOT shrug his shoulders at a team mate like a young kid would when it was his own error.

Sorry but doing public shows has naff all to do with leading on the PITCH mate.

I happen to think Terry is a prat and no doubt does not have the backing of all his players but he is a good leader on the pitch and is the sort of man you need when you need a bit of extra.

Adams and Hyypia (he really should be on that list) for me, adams doesnt really need any explanation, but big sami really deserves recognition, a key player for us for all the time he waqs here, even towards the end of his career at liverpool he wouldnt be a regular, but would be a player drafted in for the important games and not look out of place

How can you be a great skipper when you are not respected by your own players? How is going to rally players when they don't think much of him? You can say what you like but a captain has to conduct himself in a proper manner.

On the whole I think Ferdinand is a much better Football/Defender thats what the whole topic is about. Ferdinand has led Man Utd to the Champions League and put the team before his own personal glory (Terry taking the penalty)

VivaPaulScholes wrote:How can you be a great skipper when you are not respected by your own players? How is going to rally players when they don't think much of him? You can say what you like but a captain has to conduct himself in a proper manner.

On the whole I think Ferdinand is a much better Football/Defender thats what the whole topic is about. Ferdinand has led Man Utd to the Champions League and put the team before his own personal glory (Terry taking the penalty)

To be fair, you can't really knock Terry for talking a penalty. I think 6 had already been done, so it wasn't as if he strode up first.

Rallying your players on the pitch is different to being conducting yourself in the proper manner. Rio is a better Footballer and arguably a better defender but Terry is again IMO the better leader.

I think we will have to agree to disagree Scholesy.

Terry was taking the 5th penalty the last one he is not known for being a penalty taker and he is hardly a brilliant striker of the ball.

What I'm saying is how can Terry be such a great leader when players dislike him how can you rally them? Yes a few years ago when Chelsea won back to back titles but he is not the same player anymore, there was a divide in the England team because of him that is not great captiancy to me.

Yes we wil have to disagree. But it was nice to have a debate on here with someone without name calling need more of this type of stuff on here

VivaPaulScholes wrote:Terry was taking the 5th penalty the last one he is not known for being a penalty taker and he is hardly a brilliant striker of the ball.

What I'm saying is how can Terry be such a great leader when players dislike him how can you rally them? Yes a few years ago when Chelsea won back to back titles but he is not the same player anymore, there was a divide in the England team because of him that is not great captiancy to me.

Yes we wil have to disagree. But it was nice to have a debate on here with someone without name calling need more of this type of stuff on here

Well, my nick name when I DID play football was Scholesy, so I can hardly call you a name

Digressing a little.

I thought both were past it and shouldn't be in the Euro 2012 squad but Rio has played well lately and we do need experience even though youngsters are being called for by some. Terry, I'm not so sure about.

I think both have put in good performances this season Terry especially against Napoli and Spurs the other day. The only problem I have is Ferdinand being fit and how the other players will react to Terry if that wasn't the case I would easily have both as my first team CB at Euros.

As good as Jones and Smalling look they will struggle against the best teams and experience will count .

I think it's got to be Rio+1 at the Euros. Would not have said the same six months ago when he was a one man injury crisis but he's been in pretty imperious form again recently and playing consistently and, as both Stella and Scholes say, experience is crucial.

But who alongside? Richards is now a bonafide right back (and in my opinion should be battling it out with Walker for that spot, ahead of Johnson), not sure Smalling/Jones are ready for such a big competition, Cahill hasn't quite hit his best form since the Chelsea transfer, Dawson no longer turns out for Spurs whilst King is still a crock.

Never been a fan but Lescott is probably the answer, no?

Got to consider teams and formations, Ferdinand has never had a dedicated holding midfielder infront of him like Terry had consistently in his prime.

Ferdinand doesn't need to be a leader in the current united team because it's full of experience, in Giggs, Scholes, Evra, Vidic and Rooney he can be left to do what he does best and that is organise the defence and defend expertly.

I personally favour a great reader of the game (proactive) over a reactive defender which Terry is, he's not what I consider a good reader of the game and has always been next to someone who's better at it whether it's Ferdinand, Gallas, Carvalho or even Luiz.

Adams is quite simply the number he had it all and no one was a better leader on the pitch and must admit i'm shocked at the absence of Hyypia who was a magnificent defender at his best which lasted a long time, far more deserving than Carragher. The partnership with Henchoz is for me one of the most under rated in premier league history.

gotto say- terrys positioning was spot on tonight!!

its a myth that he isnt proactive as you might say! just because people only remeber some amazing last ditch tackles- you can be both!

Myst
I was going to make a similar point - while in my earlier post I criticised Terry for sometimes being impulsive and charging out to win balls that he should leave to his DM, he was very disciplined last night and played an absolute blinder. Had he been sucked out of position, Messi and Iniesta would have killed Chelsea (with Xavi supplying the ammunition), because that's the hole that Barca love to attack in.

Particularly difficult given how Barca played without anyone for the centre backs to mark, but had the attack coming from wide or from midfield runners.

I went for Ferdinand and Adams, Ferdinand has played well regardless of the team he has played in and when fit is a natural reader of the game. I used to believe he relied on his pace to get himself out of trouble, now he doesnt have any to still be playing at the top level is testament to him.

Adams explains itself really, he had his problems, came back from them, played with his heart on his sleeve and would never give up. A brilliant leader on the pitch