What do we really want to achieve in New Zealand?

So Ireland are heading to New Zealand in a few months now, with one of their best chances to get their first win against the world champions. Unfortunately, with the way things are in Ireland at the minute, this seems a very unlikely task, and a very unrealistic one too. It seems most irish posters on here (and non irish) do not believe we will get one win in NZ. So with that in mind, what is it we want to see from Ireland in NZ? If it is unlikely that we will win, do we give different players and combinations a chance? Would you rather Kidney plays the 15 we all expect, but possibly the most likely to win, or would you rather he uses these games to really test out different players and combinations? If the latter, who do you want to see play, and why?

For me, I say we really use these games to try out new players and combinations as our first priority. Even one win would be nice, but the most likely way for that to happen would be to change some things in the first few games, and possibly have a much stronger team by game 3. Some things I would like to see would be:

1) McFadden/Cave getting a chance in the centres.
2) Fitzgerald getting plenty of game-time (I would prefer him to play 13, but this is unlikely).
3) BOD to get a chance at 12, rather than start at 13 which is the most likely option.
4) O'Mahony getting a shot at 8 and put some real pressure on Heaslip.
5) O'Brien getting another go at 6, to see if it really is his best position.
6) Jennings getting another chance at 7, to reward his recent form.
7) Earls to get another chance in the back three. I think he could be in trouble in terms of his irish career.
8) Test some of our props. We have no choice, and though the scrum may get dismantled, we need to give them game time.
9) Most importantly, Kidney to play an expansive game and take some risks. Lets show those kiwis we can run the ball too.

I hardly expect many of those to happen, but it would certainly make the trip to NZ a lot more satisfying, even if we don't win one game. If Kidney can change things, and actually take some risks, I will be a very happy irish fan.

you must aim for a win, irrespective of whether it is likely or not.

Dead set Biltong. With that philosophy you'll keep on losing for another hundred years. A three test series against the best in the business is where you go hell for leather, especially with history at stake. Too much experimentation and you'll get a hiding-you need to be confident and assured and I think it may be suicide just to roll the dice.

I hope for the integrity of International rugby that Ireland dont come down here and treat it like a selection trial for two games and only go hard for the last game.

1. Win the series.
2. Win a game.
3. Play a gameplay that suits the squad and suits the way rugby is going.
4. New players in the squad. Cave, McFadden, Madigan, Zebo/Kearney.
5. Hagan or Andress getting some game time in the mid week games at least. for the record i dont think theyre ready for international rugby but we are woefully short of THs.
6. Fix our centre partnership. My best guess would be 12. BOD 13. Earls also think 12. McFadden and 13. Cave has potential.

I also think 3-6 are essential in completing either 1 or 2.

Also has Jennings been that good this season? I thought he wasnt at his best throughout the season although he was good against Munster and Cardiff. Would rather persist with SOB or POM though.

I think you are missing the point of the article. I am not saying we are going to NZ with the mindset that we are going to lose. It is unlikely however that we are going to win. With the way things are in the irish team, and if things continue to go the direction they are going, we will not ever be a competitive team. So how could we expect to beat the world champions? Best option is to change things, even if short term it may be a bit of a risk.

As for treating the games as a "selection trial", I would argue that inviting new tactics, combinations and trying to play an expansive game as I described, would actually give us more of a chance of winning. Or at least make things more stressful for the All Blacks. Which is what I meant by experimenting more in the first two games, so that by game three, we have a team that has the most potential to win. It is a risk though.

For example, if I see this back-line for the three games:

Murray - Sexton
D'Arcy - BOD
Trimble - Kearney - Bowe

How will that in anyway be beneficial for irish rugby? Biltongbek, you have made plenty of comments which show you are a bit apprehensive as to how conservative the new Springbok coach is going to be. You have stated clearly how you would prefer to see Lambie for example getting a chance at 10, even if Steyn may be the more solid option. This is the same sort of situation.

I'd honestly rather we take a risk to try and win, rather than play conservative rugby that may seem the better option.

Golden wrote:Also has Jennings been that good this season? I thought he wasnt at his best throughout the season although he was good against Munster and Cardiff. Would rather persist with SOB or POM though.

I think he has been very good for Leinster the past few games. After watching O'Mahony at 8 the other day, I also remembered why I was so strongly against him playing 7. He is not a 7, but has all the attributes to play 8. It is the perfect position for him.

If Ireland go experimenting down there....it'll be a row of heavy defeats...and a waste of a tour.

Put your best team out and go for the victory...and if a fringe player shows real form then he should get a shot....

Ireland need Sexton at his best...and THAT back row voracious and rampaging....

What if it isn't a row of heavy defeats though? Like I said, I would prefer Kidney to prove to the All Blacks that we can run the ball right back at them. Rather than play the sponge game and soak up all their attack. That simply will not work against NZ.

Well, Tommy Bowe is out of the tour so he won't be playing. I'm nearly certain the back three will be Earls-Trimble-Kearney on that basis!

But again, that is injuries forcing Kidney's hand. Is he actually going to make any changes himself?

GeordieFalcon wrote:If Ireland go experimenting down there....it'll be a row of heavy defeats...and a waste of a tour.

Put your best team out and go for the victory...and if a fringe player shows real form then he should get a shot....

Ireland need Sexton at his best...and THAT back row voracious and rampaging....

I think the point is there are players showing form, and out performing the incumbents yet don't get selected.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I For example, if I see this back-line for the three games:

Murray - Sexton
D'Arcy - BOD
Trimble - Kearney - Bowe

How will that in anyway be beneficial for irish rugby? Biltongbek, you have made plenty of comments which show you are a bit apprehensive as to how conservative the new Springbok coach is going to be. You have stated clearly how you would prefer to see Lambie for example getting a chance at 10, even if Steyn may be the more solid option. This is the same sort of situation.

Rory, I am not saying don't change things up, I am saying the mentality must be to win. I don't know the depth of all the talent in Ireland, so I can't criticise or compliment your possible selections.

Of course the mentality must be to win. But if we are going to try and win by playing the negative brand of rugby we have been playing so far (which as I have pointed out, I don't think we ever will win that way) then I don't think we are going to get anything positive out of this tour. At least taking a risk and changing things up a bit COULD give NZ a bigger challenge. Even if we are a bit weaker defensively perhaps, or not just as solid.

The risk would be that it goes horribly wrong, but I don't think it would be any worse than how we play now.

Anyone think that if we lose 3-0 and thinks show no sign of changing that the IRFU will replace Kidney?

Or does anyone know if there is an active search for a Backs coach ongoing?

Don't know Rory, I expect some differences across the three tests but nothing seismic and nothing adventurous. Dependable Deccie is the new Steady Eddie.

I am starting to buy into the theory that the pressure to pick conservatively comes- has always come- from above the coach, from the upper echelons of the IRFU even if indirectly. The provinces have been successful because they've been run by people with foresight and vision. I think the IRFU are generally still a bunch of amateurs though and their focus is entirely on short term results. The bigger the pressure the less chances we take in selection and gameplan, we lose out to (let's be honest) braver teams and the pressure increases.

I feel like the Ireland team is surrounded by fear. The players play like they are afraid of making a mistake (they know one missed tackle is enough to see you eviscerated in an increasingly feral sports media). The coaches are afraid of letting go of the fading stars of a bygone generation and everyone in the IRFU seems afraid that experimentation will only make things worse. I'm not sure Dependable Deccie has it in him to change this culture of fear.

The thing is, we've known we'd be without a backs coach for some time and we also haven't had a fitness coach in six months. We seem to have made no effort to replace these people who have left, despite the importance of their jobs. Kidney, if he wasn't having a hard enough time, has only been given half a coaching staff to work with.

Golden wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If Ireland go experimenting down there....it'll be a row of heavy defeats...and a waste of a tour.

Put your best team out and go for the victory...and if a fringe player shows real form then he should get a shot....

Ireland need Sexton at his best...and THAT back row voracious and rampaging....

I think the point is there are players showing form, and out performing the incumbents yet don't get selected.

Well Golden i have to admit im a fan of playing the form players...and if in Irelands case then i guess they should go with those players...like i said put your best team out...and if that is fringe players starting then so be it....

Notch wrote:The thing is, we've known we'd be without a backs coach for some time and we also haven't had a fitness coach in six months. We seem to have made no effort to replace these people who have left, despite the importance of their jobs. Kidney, if he wasn't having a hard enough time, has only been given half a coaching staff to work with.

Just wondering how important is a fitness coach? I mean the players at least for the six nations are fit for the Heineken cup. Is the fitness coach just for maintaining these levels or are they to bring them on even further?

No, more for co-ordinating between the provinces and national team to ensure the players are in the best possible shape. I'm guessing the implementation of a co-ordinated strategy to make sure they are at peak condition for province and country when they need to be would have been his remit. I have to correct what I said; the job title is Head of Fitness not Fitness Coach.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/8383.php

Thats from when Morrow got the job, he left though and hasn't been replaced.

biltongbek wrote:you must aim for a win, irrespective of whether it is likely or not.

Absolutely. This is not a development tour. We are going to win the series, everything else is secondary.

Cheers Notch, any reason why he left?

Maybe the IRFU don't see the need for a Head of Fitness anymore. Tightening of the belt?

But when he got that job they talked about being innovative in their approach and staying ahead of competitors. Now, their Head of Fitness is gone and innovation seems to be a low priority- unlike Wales, who are generally acknowledged to be ahead of us in terms of Strength and Conditioning.

I don't really know what to think

Rory
I undersand that there always has to be an element of selection,but only going into the first test,as that is the only important test at this stage.

Also remember that going on the recent form of some of the All Blacks,it would not surprise me that the team Hansen picks for June 7 will not look much like the team that played in the WC final.

All that said however I would at some stage like to see the likes of Sexton and Zebo playing in the same Irish side.But if that risk doesnt have to be taken then good for Ireland.

We will need to see some dramatic development in the team if we are going to win the series though.

Golden wrote:Cheers Notch, any reason why he left?

Not really sure to be honest. He told the IRFU he would be leaving after the World Cup but I don't know why. He left with plenty of advance notice but there has been no real attempt to replace him. Same with Gaffney- holes in the coaching set-up that worry me.

I found this article about it by Brendan Fanning. Interesting read;

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/irish-news/brendan-fanning-unfilled-conditioning-job-weakens-kidneys-hand-3038980.html

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We will need to see some dramatic development in the team if we are going to win the series though.

Agreed!

Here is an example of how things are atm. Lets say for arguments sake that Cave is the best 13 in Ireland currently (I believe that he is personally). With BOD back from injury, who do we honestly expect to start? I think it is obvious. Kidney picks his dependable players, without taking risks. Can we truly expect to be a competitive team with this sort of attitude? Not to mention the fact that BOD etc are nearing the end of their careers. We are going to have to change things at some point..

I seem to be of the few that think we will get a win. However i see it coming from straight out of kidneys handbook, ala Australia, where we just throw the kitchen sink at them, take our points, keep it tight and rish nothing.

Coming off the hammering from England is exactly the kind of mood where we are most likely to upset. I absolutely hate this way of thought but it seems to permeate throughout all Irish sports. We perform better when we are the underdog or when we have our backs to the wall.

And the thing that really bugs me as well, is that when change does have to happen, Kidney will simply move his dependable players into different positions, so that he doesn't have to take the risk with someone entirely new. If Earls and BOD were out, I have a bad feeling that Kidney would prefer moving Bowe to 13 rather than simply picking Cave or someone else.

Golden wrote:I seem to be of the few that think we will get a win. However i see it coming from straight out of kidneys handbook, ala Australia, where we just throw the kitchen sink at them, take our points, keep it tight and rish nothing.

Coming off the hammering from England is exactly the kind of mood where we are most likely to upset. I absolutely hate this way of thought but it seems to permeate throughout all Irish sports. We perform better when we are the underdog or when we have our backs to the wall.

The fact we beat NZ for the first time would be an amazing achievement. But if we use those tactics, which clearly have a very low win percentage, would we really be happy long term? In fact, Kidney would probably be praised for his tactics, and we would see another few years of that kind of rugby. At the end of the day, our players do not suit that kind of rugby.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Here is an example of how things are atm. Lets say for arguments sake that Cave is the best 13 in Ireland currently (I believe that he is personally). With BOD back from injury, who do we honestly expect to start?

Rory, if O'Driscoll keeps on his current trend of improvement then I would select him. Cave is playing very well but BOD is different class. I think the centre combination needs re thought because it isn't balanced in attack or defence.

If you pick BOD or Cave, at 12 or 13, then they need to be partnered with someone with a bit of pace.. i.e. McFadden or Earls.

BOD was a different class. Is he still the best option? I am not so sure. I do agree though on your second point. I think BOD-Earls could work, or McFadden-Cave, but having BOD and Cave in the same centre partnership might not gel.

Do the All Blacks have any warm up games before they play us or is it there first test with a new coach and many new players?

BOD and Cave would gel ok Rory I think but it would leave us a wee bit short on pace maybe, not that I'd mind seeing how that goes.

One thing I'd sure of is that D'arcy/BOD isn't good enough as a combo any more.

Golden

No, there is a possibility the All Blacks will not play for their super xv teams on the weekend prior.In the meantime most ABs will play 6 or 7 games between now and the first Irish test.

In fact this will be a cold start for Hansen,and that is when the ABs are very vulnerable.

"In fact this will be a cold start for Hansen,and that is when the ABs are very vulnerable."

That is what could make this tour even more depressing if we don't deliver. We won't if we continue to play how we have.

Ireland have 3 chances to win a test,FEAR NOTHING,just go out and play.TheAll Blacks have lost about 33 matches since 1903 at home,it is VERY difficult to win there.But not impossible of the RWC squad,Boric,Mealamu are injured,Thorn in Ireland.,Cowan,Weepu,Williams,out of form.Muliana not there Carter not yet fit,McCaw doubtfull,Kaino gone.By mid June more injuries may have occurred.
The NZ side may be very different to the RWC side,that does`nt mean it will be a weak one there player depth is legend.Go out and enjoy yourselves your expected to lose prove the doubters wrong.

The best chance Ireland have of winning a test or two is for Hansen to Coach NZ like he coached Wales.

Golden wrote:I seem to be of the few that think we will get a win. However i see it coming from straight out of kidneys handbook, ala Australia, where we just throw the kitchen sink at them, take our points, keep it tight and rish nothing.

Coming off the hammering from England is exactly the kind of mood where we are most likely to upset. I absolutely hate this way of thought but it seems to permeate throughout all Irish sports. We perform better when we are the underdog or when we have our backs to the wall.

Unfortunately, only the Wallabies could have fallen into that trap, Golden.

What I felt at the time (half time) was, OK... Ireland were smothering Oz with their 8-man plus penalty kicker approach to that game - controlling possession and on top at the breakdown, waiting for the next infringement which they then duly converted into points. The problem was the Wallabies couldn't change the pattern of the game in the second half and were completely in disarray - i.e. shock.

Brilliant tactics from the Irish - pi55 poor from us. We were simply out-thought and made to look unresponsive to the predicament we were in.

However, playing the same way against the ABs could be a fatal mistake. NZ thrive on the closely fought contests up front and have a formidable history of counteracting such tactics. They can match Ireland and then deliver some more. Australia do not have that pedigree yet (and we know it!) but we are working on it in that department over the years with the likes of Pocock and a few other aggressive ball-foragers / in-ya-face players. We were like lambs to the slaughter that day... it must have been great for you to watch.

I wish Ireland all the best on their tour. Sure, I agree they must field their best side available for all matches and maybe 'experiment' with one (two at most) players... but beware of the risk involved. There is no margin for error even when playing what looks like a slightly weakened AB side with a new coach at the helm.

I commend all those looking for a win. I think it's realistic (maybe not likely). A win would be great for the Irish game and the team. It's a three match tour, new AB's coach, new players. All you need is one match. Whilst I'd like the Ab's to win every match in utterly convincing fashion, I think a win to Ireland would be good for everybody (A series loss however, I wont contemplate )

1) McFadden/Cave getting a chance in the centres.
2) Fitzgerald getting plenty of game-time (I would prefer him to play 13, but this is unlikely).
3) BOD to get a chance at 12, rather than start at 13 which is the most likely option.
4) O'Mahony getting a shot at 8 and put some real pressure on Heaslip.
5) O'Brien getting another go at 6, to see if it really is his best position.
6) Jennings getting another chance at 7, to reward his recent form.
7) Earls to get another chance in the back three. I think he could be in trouble in terms of his irish career.
8) Test some of our props. We have no choice, and though the scrum may get dismantled, we need to give them game time.
9) Most importantly, Kidney to play an expansive game and take some risks. Lets show those kiwis we can run the ball too.

For me: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And... Yes. I agree with all of it mate.
Kidney: Maybe. Hope so. Nope. Possibly. No. No. Hope so. ?. Yer 'avin a giraffe yeah?

10. Will Kidney resign after we lose the series against a reorganised and possibly vunerable AB side 3-0?
No.

Not interested in Ireland until he's gone tbh.

Morning Gibbo.

Nice to see you up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed this morning.

Hope I wasn't coming across a poor loser above. Ye deserved that one.
Pity I can't make it over now... was looking at coming through Schiphol.
Oh well, I will get there again. Can't wait to share some giraffes!

For sure, a maiden win should be the goal. A series win may be pushing the boat a bit far considering Irish form/selection (by the sounds) and history. If I had to answer this question 4 months ago, I'd have said you're dreaming if you thought you'd win a game (AB fans can be blinkered and perceived as arrogant), but now I reckon you'll be in with a shout for one win. Not saying it'll happen, but now's a good time to be trying at all costs. Can't see the Irish winning more than 1, as there'd be hell to pay in NZ if there was a loss in either game 1 or 2 and the ABs would do anything to ensure it was limited to only 1.

Reasons why I think the Irish are in with a shout....,

• Our in form halfbacks are Andy Ellis and a plethora of uncapped, but talented youngsters
• Carter is playing 12 and not kicking goals for crusaders
• Mealamu is captain of the blues whom are woeful and his game has suffered (Hore is in form)
• Kaino is out (no one is scared of Thomson)
• McCaw may be underdone or tentative (then again, he may be awesome as he invariably is)
• Our incumbant locks are not firing (williams), are injured (borich), or moved offshore (thorn) so they'll be either newbies or also rans
• New coaching panel that doesn't have 100% fan support (yet). Don't think Foster is ABs standard, the chiefs under his watch have always lacked steel
• Nonu plays for the blues, he's trying, but his game is suffering
• First ABs games for the international season generally lack accuracy
• Post WC hangover or the Piri pie eating effect

Anyways, just a couple of things that may be in Ireland's favour. Then again, maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic and all will be as usual and a cleen sweep

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Of course the mentality must be to win. But if we are going to try and win by playing the negative brand of rugby we have been playing so far (which as I have pointed out, I don't think we ever will win that way) then I don't think we are going to get anything positive out of this tour. At least taking a risk and changing things up a bit COULD give NZ a bigger challenge. Even if we are a bit weaker defensively perhaps, or not just as solid.

The risk would be that it goes horribly wrong, but I don't think it would be any worse than how we play now.

Rory, sorry, I was typing you this lengthy reply last night when my internet went down, so I'll try to remember everything I wanted to say then.

It is all about balance. On the one hand you know what the experienced players can do, and on the other hand you think you know what inexperienced players can do. It is usually the inexperienced ones that will bring something fresh and unexpected, like a clean line break that wasn't expected, and if the rest of the team expected it, they will be ready in support to pounce. The other side of that coin is the inexperienced can't make the step up.

And I think often in that lies the fear for a coach when putting a youngster in. Therefor most of the time he will want to surround the one youngster with exprienced players.

Let's take Brian O'Driscoll, he has been a star player for Ireland, for some time, I remember when he and Darcy was still a very good combination, but Darcy doesn't look that good without O'Driscoll by his side, in fact he looked decidedly average during the Six Nations. YOu must find someone better than Darcy, does that mean O'Driscoll coming back from injury and not in the best form should also be replaced. Well that's the conundrum, Having an all new midfield against SBW, NONU or Smith, is just asking for trouble, so Declan Kidney would want O'Driscoll to remain and would most likely hope for one more heroic series from the veteran.

So I think it is important to know how finely that balance needs to be.

SA is in a different situation, we have a new coach, we won the last 7 tests against England, we just came out of 12 years of conservative rugby, our midfield is gone, so we are forced into a situation where we have to select a new midfield pairing which in my eyes is a damn good thing, fortunately we have Frans Steyn and JP Pietersen as back up, a midfield pairing with almost 100 caps between them, so changing things, doesn't necessarily mean rookies.

I agree with all point except 6 - no point taking Jennings - I would rather see POM or Henry played at 7.

My replacement 6 is Dont take D'Arcy or DOC.

Work on the gameplan. Get that right and we have made giant leaps forward.

Outside of that simply pick the best team to win us the NZ match. Forget "blooding" guys just pick the best ones. We'll naturally develop in this way.

For example I would say that Peter O'Mahony and Ian Madigan are genuinely part of the best 22 we have. It isn't blooding them and it cheapens the hard work they have done to earn the shirt. By contrast O'Callaghan and possibly Darcy are not playing well enough to earn a place.

Gibbo, to be honest I am very disappointed to hear that Ireland means nothing to you simply because Kidney is in charge. A disgraceful attitude and has made me very sad today to see such a passionate fan cop out like that. Support your bloody country!