What do we really want to achieve in New Zealand?

First topic message reminder :

So Ireland are heading to New Zealand in a few months now, with one of their best chances to get their first win against the world champions. Unfortunately, with the way things are in Ireland at the minute, this seems a very unlikely task, and a very unrealistic one too. It seems most irish posters on here (and non irish) do not believe we will get one win in NZ. So with that in mind, what is it we want to see from Ireland in NZ? If it is unlikely that we will win, do we give different players and combinations a chance? Would you rather Kidney plays the 15 we all expect, but possibly the most likely to win, or would you rather he uses these games to really test out different players and combinations? If the latter, who do you want to see play, and why?

For me, I say we really use these games to try out new players and combinations as our first priority. Even one win would be nice, but the most likely way for that to happen would be to change some things in the first few games, and possibly have a much stronger team by game 3. Some things I would like to see would be:

1) McFadden/Cave getting a chance in the centres.
2) Fitzgerald getting plenty of game-time (I would prefer him to play 13, but this is unlikely).
3) BOD to get a chance at 12, rather than start at 13 which is the most likely option.
4) O'Mahony getting a shot at 8 and put some real pressure on Heaslip.
5) O'Brien getting another go at 6, to see if it really is his best position.
6) Jennings getting another chance at 7, to reward his recent form.
7) Earls to get another chance in the back three. I think he could be in trouble in terms of his irish career.
8) Test some of our props. We have no choice, and though the scrum may get dismantled, we need to give them game time.
9) Most importantly, Kidney to play an expansive game and take some risks. Lets show those kiwis we can run the ball too.

I hardly expect many of those to happen, but it would certainly make the trip to NZ a lot more satisfying, even if we don't win one game. If Kidney can change things, and actually take some risks, I will be a very happy irish fan.

What I'd be hoping to see:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, O'Mahony, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
O'Driscoll, Earls
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Hagan, Heaslip, Reddan, Madigan, McFadden

Just one last comment on this series.

If an international coach treats every test series as a must win, and in his development program he has set out goals of which players will be introduced to international rugby irrespective of the opponent, there shouldn't be a situation where he doesn't know who his back up player is in any position.

He should have a squad made up of his first 15 and his back up fifiteen and these guys get blooded in a way where the team is never filled with more than a few rookies, even if they only come off the bench for their first 10 caps or so.

eventually over a period of time he should have a well balanced squad with varied degrees of experience.

The question is who are the best two in each position and how many international caps do they each have.

Can someone provide an actual list?

EBOP wrote:For sure, a maiden win should be the goal. A series win may be pushing the boat a bit far considering Irish form/selection (by the sounds) and history.

Maybe so but it still has to be the target. If you want to win 1 test then play one test, the point of Series is to win the series. If Irelands aim is anything else then they should stay at home.

1 win would be of huge historic significance and a great consolation prize, but that is still what it is- a consolation if we lose the series.

In terms of selection: I think a distinction needs to be made between experimentation and picking the best players, there does seem to be an illusion that the best players means picking the tried and tested as opposed to picking some less established and experienced guys.

Personally I don't think selecting the likes of Cave, Kearney JR, McFadden, Toner, Tuohy, Madigan, Marshall etc. is experimenting. They are amongst the best players in the country in their respective positions.

In many respects I think we have a far better chance of beating the ABs if we select guys who are young, hungry, fit, on form and have no baggage than just trudging out guys because they have 100 caps beside their names.

In fact I think it our only chance.

If a player is not playing well then they shouldn't be on the plane regardless if the are 19 or 35.

roddersm wrote:

EBOP wrote:For sure, a maiden win should be the goal. A series win may be pushing the boat a bit far considering Irish form/selection (by the sounds) and history.

Maybe so but it still has to be the target. If you want to win 1 test then play one test, the point of Series is to win the series. If Irelands aim is anything else then they should stay at home.

1 win would be of huge historic significance and a great consolation prize, but that is still what it is- a consolation if we lose the series.

In terms of selection: I think a distinction needs to be made between experimentation and picking the best players, there does seem to be an illusion that the best players means picking the tried and tested as opposed to picking some less established and experienced guys.

Personally I don't think selecting the likes of Cave, Kearney JR, McFadden, Toner, Tuohy, Madigan, Marshall etc. is experimenting. They are amongst the best players in the country in their respective positions.

In many respects I think we have a far better chance of beating the ABs if we select guys who are young, hungry, fit, on form and have no baggage than just trudging out guys because they have 100 caps beside their names.

In fact I think it our only chance.

If a player is not playing well then they shouldn't be on the plane regardless if the are 19 or 35.

The bolded part. I like this a LOT. I agree in full.

Some of the names I disagree with but the concept I am in FULL agreement.

I remember a young Denis Leamy having an amazing performance in NZ on tour about 7 years ago.

red_stag wrote:What I'd be hoping to see:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, O'Mahony, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
O'Driscoll, Earls
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Hagan, Heaslip, Reddan, Madigan, McFadden

Good side stag.

I'd go for something like:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, O'Mahony, O'Brien
Reddan, Sexton
O'Driscoll(c)/Cave, Earls
Kearney jr/Zebo, Kearney, Trimble

Cronin, Court, Hagan, Tuohy, Heaslip, Boss, Madigan, McFadden/Cave

Sorry forgot about Fitzgerald, he'd be thereabouts for no 11.

Ooh no Tommy Bowe. Interesting.

Though you have too many people on the bench. You can only have 7.

In fact I think Tuohy would be a better bench option than Heaslip (for my team) in the circumstances.

Bowe is injured Stag.

Drop Hagan from the bench then.

Bowe apart thats the best side we can field imo. Murray is out of sorts and the Leinster quartet are the form halfbacks along with Paul Marshall.

Toner is thereabouts too but I've gone for Touhys physicality.

Kearney jr and Zebo are pushing for a spot even with Bowe fit and Fitzgerald was magic against the blues. He brings a creative spark that we need.

EBOP,your points are valid BUT,the Blues have the most injury riddled team at the moment.Last year the Hurricanes were a mess BUT the same players in an All Black shirt were awesome.Mealamu is currently suffering injury/form problems,BUT Hore [who before injury was a first choice] Flynn,Hika Elliott are all showing form.Matt Todd I expect to start at 7,McCaw won`t be risked until ready maybe even the 4Ns .HE on one leg is better than most on two,NOT WORRIED about Adam Thomson they SHOULD be!!! He`s playing out of his skin and is the form 6.A different style to Kaino true but expect AB`s to play Right and Left not open and blind.Locks are a problem RUBBISH!!!!,Donnelly and Whitelock are an excellent combo,Eaton and Thrush are showing AB form again.
A lot of promising young Locks coming on Hoata,Back hus,Romano to name 3.
Carter starting at 12 that is because he is not yet match fit,and not risking his goal kicking.Taylor or Bleyendahl [for the matter] are useful 10`s and Goal kicks.Cory jane and Dagg [especially] are Goal kickers get them practicing Dagg is in the 75% bracket.Carter starts if unable Cruden is in good form,especially if they try SBW,Kahui as the mid field.
How can you knock the coaching team they have`nt played a match yet,just because one was the member of a Super franchise you don`t like or was unsuccessful does that make him a bad pick?
So far ONLY the BLUES have been a disaster area,Highlanders and Chiefs are flying high.Hurricanes doing better than expected the Crusaders with there big two back and a favourable run in will be there abouts come playoff time.
In cidentally the Chiefs have gone back to Basic skills first the bedrock of NZ Rugby.Re-discovered the Vic Cavanagh ethos,Forwards do the graft first win the
ball for the backs.THEN let backs do there thing without cluttering up the mid field themselves.

roddersm wrote:Bowe is injured Stag.

Drop Hagan from the bench then.

Bowe apart thats the best side we can field imo. Murray is out of sorts and the Leinster quartet are the form halfbacks along with Paul Marshall.

Toner is thereabouts too but I've gone for Touhys physicality.

Kearney jr and Zebo are pushing for a spot even with Bowe fit and Fitzgerald was magic against the blues. He brings a creative spark that we need.

I think we need two props on the bench. We have loads of versatile backs and back rows. Lets use them and develop our props/avoid a situation where Court is shunted to tight head.

Stag we can't not have second row cover though?

I'm not sure there's any tighthead who offers considerably more than Court as cover ( )?

Touhy brings an extra ball carrying option from the bench and extra power and stability to the scrum as a contrast to Ryan's lineout ability and all round play in the loose.

I'm also concerned that we are flogging O'Connell to death and we need to be looking at the different 2nd row combinations now. Thankfully there are options there.

That where I disagree Rodders I reckon there area number of TH better than Court.

None are that good but I just think Court is poor

Macklin, Fitzpatrick, Hagan, Archer, Andress, Buckley are all better TH in my opinion and I say that in the belief that some of them are in the poor/useless category and the others are only in the mediocre/ok category.

Tom Court is and never will be an acceptable TH

biltongbek wrote:Just one last comment on this series.

If an international coach treats every test series as a must win, and in his development program he has set out goals of which players will be introduced to international rugby irrespective of the opponent, there shouldn't be a situation where he doesn't know who his back up player is in any position.

He should have a squad made up of his first 15 and his back up fifiteen and these guys get blooded in a way where the team is never filled with more than a few rookies, even if they only come off the bench for their first 10 caps or so.

eventually over a period of time he should have a well balanced squad with varied degrees of experience.

The question is who are the best two in each position and how many international caps do they each have.

Can someone provide an actual list?

See, the problem is for a few positions I have no idea who is the best options. Would you rather I list the two best players in teach position currently, or the two best overall? For example, if we are talking currently, O'Driscoll has only played 2 games..

I don't disagree with that Geoff but if I was picking a bench none of the above would make it ahead of 2nd row cover, where we have a couple of guys - namely Tuohy and Toner who can bring a real impact.

We're scraping the barrell whoever covers TH, including Court. Although in Courts defence he is very good in the loose.... he just can't keep the scrum up on the TH side....

red_stag wrote:Work on the gameplan. Get that right and we have made giant leaps forward.

Outside of that simply pick the best team to win us the NZ match. Forget "blooding" guys just pick the best ones. We'll naturally develop in this way.

For example I would say that Peter O'Mahony and Ian Madigan are genuinely part of the best 22 we have. It isn't blooding them and it cheapens the hard work they have done to earn the shirt. By contrast O'Callaghan and possibly Darcy are not playing well enough to earn a place.

Gibbo, to be honest I am very disappointed to hear that Ireland means nothing to you simply because Kidney is in charge. A disgraceful attitude and has made me very sad today to see such a passionate fan cop out like that. Support your bloody country!

I don't think Gibson was saying Ireland means nothing to him. Clearly he is very passionate about Ireland and that is why he is looking forward to see Kidney go, and doesn't enjoy watching Ireland in their current state. I know exactly why too. As much as I hope he will, I don't think Kidney is EVER going to get it. He will continue trying to play the only game plan he knows.

It is like watching Australia or France, teams clearly suited to running the ball getting coached to play a slow, defensive game. There would be outrage I think. They don't even have the players to make that work. That is how I feel watching Ireland. We aren't actually playing to our strengths at all.

geoff998rugby wrote:I agree with all point except 6 - no point taking Jennings - I would rather see POM or Henry played at 7.

My replacement 6 is Dont take D'Arcy or DOC.

I know why you would prefer seeing other options there, but with Jennings I am curious to see if he really can show his club form for his country. Given another chance, if he did take it, would he be too old to play for Ireland? I don't think so, because look at how much Wallace has given us well into his 30s. Plus, if Jennings was playing for us we could have the opportunity to blood a few young 7s. I think O'Mahony should never be considered a 7 again honestly. Hopefully a few guys will come through over the years.

Emack, I'm actually a chiefs supporter. Supporting the chiefs over foster's reign has been a frustrating exercise in promising so much and delivering so little. As you note, the chiefs are excelling this year, why's that, change of coach? Forwards are playing well and they have the best backline coach around in Smith. The fact that they're doing so well (so far at least) after foster left suggests his leaving had something to do with it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Just one last comment on this series.

If an international coach treats every test series as a must win, and in his development program he has set out goals of which players will be introduced to international rugby irrespective of the opponent, there shouldn't be a situation where he doesn't know who his back up player is in any position.

He should have a squad made up of his first 15 and his back up fifiteen and these guys get blooded in a way where the team is never filled with more than a few rookies, even if they only come off the bench for their first 10 caps or so.

eventually over a period of time he should have a well balanced squad with varied degrees of experience.

The question is who are the best two in each position and how many international caps do they each have.

Can someone provide an actual list?

See, the problem is for a few positions I have no idea who is the best options. Would you rather I list the two best players in teach position currently, or the two best overall? For example, if we are talking currently, O'Driscoll has only played 2 games..

Whoemever you believe is currently the best, your personal opinion.

Just saw your thread about it biltongbek, will post it over there

Jennings has been given enough chances - not good enough.
I dont think his club form has been anything special either.

Henry and POM have both out performed him this year.

If you play 2 props on the bench it is not the 2nd row where you lose a player it is usually the backs i.e a 5 - 2 split.

Fitzgerald would be an obvious choice for this role but would only work if you have a 12, who can play 10, on the pitch.

I think he has been very good the last few games. Henry has been good yes, but I am not sure he is a better option than Jennings. O'Mahony is just not a 7. It is a total waste of his talents there.

Ireland need to take an approach similar to England.

Just enjoy the natural beauty of NZ. Get on the turps hard when the sun goes down. Make inappropriate comments and exhibit oafish behaviour. Bungee jumping is passé. Ferry jumping is the new craze as is watching dwarf tossing.

Then Ireland will look unconvincing in the matches in NZ. The coach gets sacked on his return and the new coach takes a no nonsense approach and gets rid of the driftwood and older players and brings in the new talent and then they exceed all expectations in the 6N and almost get a Grand Slam.

So my advice is to the Irish players, particularly those getting on, is to enjoy themselves as if it was (as it will be) the last time they ever go on a rugby tour. Ensure they do everything off the pitch and make the most of this wonderful country to tour.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote: and make the most of this wonderful country to tour.

. . . .for more information about this tour simply PM Red_Stag!!

If you love raw food, clams and tattoos... you'll love New Zealand.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he has been very good the last few games. Henry has been good yes, but I am not sure he is a better option than Jennings. O'Mahony is just not a 7. It is a total waste of his talents there.

Neddless to say I disagree but I think we have done the Ireland 7 debate to death

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he has been very good the last few games. Henry has been good yes, but I am not sure he is a better option than Jennings. O'Mahony is just not a 7. It is a total waste of his talents there.

Neddless to say I disagree but I think we have done the Ireland 7 debate to death

Geoff - just wondering if you think Birch has any chance of becoming the irish 7?

Way to early to tell in my view.

Lets see how next year pans out

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:Work on the gameplan. Get that right and we have made giant leaps forward.

Outside of that simply pick the best team to win us the NZ match. Forget "blooding" guys just pick the best ones. We'll naturally develop in this way.

For example I would say that Peter O'Mahony and Ian Madigan are genuinely part of the best 22 we have. It isn't blooding them and it cheapens the hard work they have done to earn the shirt. By contrast O'Callaghan and possibly Darcy are not playing well enough to earn a place.

Gibbo, to be honest I am very disappointed to hear that Ireland means nothing to you simply because Kidney is in charge. A disgraceful attitude and has made me very sad today to see such a passionate fan cop out like that. Support your bloody country!

I don't think Gibson was saying Ireland means nothing to him. Clearly he is very passionate about Ireland and that is why he is looking forward to see Kidney go, and doesn't enjoy watching Ireland in their current state. I know exactly why too. As much as I hope he will, I don't think Kidney is EVER going to get it. He will continue trying to play the only game plan he knows.

It is like watching Australia or France, teams clearly suited to running the ball getting coached to play a slow, defensive game. There would be outrage I think. They don't even have the players to make that work. That is how I feel watching Ireland. We aren't actually playing to our strengths at all.

Pretty much covers it and saves me a lot of typing. Bedankt Rory.

Stag, I have been watching and supporting Ireland since long before you were born. 40 years now. Never in our history, have we had such an exciting and talented squad at our disposal. And this clueless Bozo is killing us. I will not retract what I said. He has wasted 3 precious years, has put us in reverse and I'll never forgive him for it.

Eddie was a far better coach. That's how bad he is at this level.

I love my country with a passion. That's why it hurts so much to watch this shoite and having to listen to Kidney's diatribe afterwards. Its bad for the soul.

And (yeah Im really not interested) Jenno is the form 7 in the NH right now. What does he have to do, to remove the blinkers from those who cant see that? Watch him. Id rather he stays home with Leinster tbh. Take Henry. Or Dom Ryan.

Gibson even though I'm 40 years younger than you man I have to agree with that post 100%. Well said sir

I´m not sure France are a good example there Stag. In the big games they seem to think they can pull off a defensive display and are ultra conservative. It´s been a while since we've seen French flair against a top side.

roddersm wrote:Gibson even though I'm 40 years younger than you man I have to agree with that post 100%. Well said sir

16 eh Rodders? Ever been kissed, mo chara?

red_stag wrote:What I'd be hoping to see:

Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, O'Connell
Ferris, O'Mahony, O'Brien
Murray, Sexton
O'Driscoll, Earls
Trimble, Kearney, Bowe

Cronin, Court, Hagan, Heaslip, Reddan, Madigan, McFadden

Get out of my mind!! I was about to post something pretty similar, at least in terms of the first XV- and excluding Bowe who is out until the start of next season. Definitely agree with the full front row on the bench. We've some flexibility in the backline in terms of guys who can play in different positions. It is definitely time for BOD to move in one.

Gibson wrote:

roddersm wrote:Gibson even though I'm 40 years younger than you man I have to agree with that post 100%. Well said sir

16 eh Rodders? Ever been kissed, mo chara?

Calmly done there Mr gibbo, after the "youngster" Rodders were

Rodders you naughty naughty man, go watch stefan play some rugby man.

Out foxed by the old guard!

Its funny me and Gibbo agree on just about everything except Jennings and Paddy 'bloody' Wallace.

Oh well nobodies perfect not even you Gibbo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1Qolv4ntQ