Madigan should tour NZ ahead of ROG

First topic message reminder :

Well it's all there in the title. I think Ian Madigan should tour NZ with Ireland in the summer ahead of Ronan O'Gara.

ROG had a decnet season, dropping 2 goals to secure a clean sweep for Munster in the pool stages of the HC, but his international cameos are becoming less frequent, less sustained and less valuable.

Ian Madigan however, is a real talent for the future. Goal kicking (one of the few components of an OHs game that can be vastly improved with practise) aside he seems to be the real deal, his passing and distribution is the best in the country, he's quick, great eye for a gap, an excellent finisher and has great hands. He's by no means the finished article but at 23 he has plenty of time to improve on his weaknesses (touch finding in particular), and would benefit massively from international game time and training.

What do you think?

Sin é wrote:
The Lions / BOD / Umaga thing has made Irish players very unpopular over there.

Really? First time I've heard this one. For us its long forgotten and largely overblown from time to time.

ROG I think has had 10 cracks at the AB's and hasnt fared well at all in many but then I can't agree with just throwing Madigan in because theres nothing to lose. I'd go with Madigan purely because the winds of change are upon us all post World cup if only for that reason.

Ireland have huge respect in NZ and if you look at the scores here over the past 20 years there were matches Ireland could have won. Every AB takes these matches seriously and they don't want to be amongst the team that drops a 100+ year old record. As long as they build during the series from a solid initial gameplan they could take one (or more).

Personally I think their best chance is the first due to the notoriously slow starts we get from the AB's and their combinations.

Pretty sure the NZ rugby union will want to fill a few stadiums and if its seen as a development tour they wont.

Take it from me. ROG, rightly or wrongy is seen as a joke over there. He is not fit to play the game at this level anymore.

Development tour? Dont make me laugh.

Has anyone seen the wrestler? He should quit while he is not so far behind.

He wont travel, and if he does, its confirmation that he is in fact kidneys lovechild.

Personally I think their best chance is the first due to the notoriously slow starts we get from the AB's and their combinations.

.....and leaving O Gara at home to fight for his place on the Munster bench.

All 3 will go - Madigan, Sexton, O'Gara - its a non issue

The whole BOD/Umaga think is ancient history in NZ - long forgotten

geoff998rugby wrote:All 3 will go - Madigan, Sexton, Keatley - its a non issue

The whole BOD/Umaga think is ancient history in NZ - long forgotten

Now that would take balls. Has pina collada man got any?

DOD wrote:I agree Madigan should go...but instead of Sexton.

Fly....if theres one thing Kidney doesnt do its to proscribe how players should play as nearly all the players and teams he has coached have testified to...

try another arguement...

A bolt from the blue on a thread I'd forgotten................

Yeah, I know about Kidney; he don't do nothin' according to some folks who still suggest he should stay in the role on merit. It's always the same answer DOD, if he doesn't do nothin', he's not needed and should let someone in who might - if he does do something then he's doing it wrong up until now. There is just no amount of clutching at what Kidney "doesn't" do that will justify what he is doing....at the moment.

He has New Zealand to prove me wrong. And I hope he does!

Taylorman wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The Lions / BOD / Umaga thing has made Irish players very unpopular over there.

Really? First time I've heard this one. For us its long forgotten and largely overblown from time to time.

ROG I think has had 10 cracks at the AB's and hasnt fared well at all in many but then I can't agree with just throwing Madigan in because theres nothing to lose. I'd go with Madigan purely because the winds of change are upon us all post World cup if only for that reason.

Ireland have huge respect in NZ and if you look at the scores here over the past 20 years there were matches Ireland could have won. Every AB takes these matches seriously and they don't want to be amongst the team that drops a 100+ year old record. As long as they build during the series from a solid initial gameplan they could take one (or more).

Personally I think their best chance is the first due to the notoriously slow starts we get from the AB's and their combinations.

Taylor - the NZ press were commenting that Umaga was not too popular in the 'Emerald Isle' (when he was interviewed by Munster) because of the tackle, so its not forgotten about over there. BOD picked up the reputation as being a cry baby (which he isn't - he was just used by the Lions management to cover up their inadequacies). Pretty much anyone who was on that tour were regarded as over-rated and the NZ press anyway have been hugely dismissive about Ireland players, though beating Australia in the world cup might have changed that a bit (and even though O'Gara didn't start that match, he was the outhalf for the last 30 minutes!)

The elephant is back in the room.

Scrap the national side, there's no point if people don't support the team and don't want to see the best players selected.

Lets just stick to provincial rugby were we can squabble until our little hearts are content.

Let the rest of the world worry about Grandslams, world cups, Lions tours, test series etc. sure we have our interpros to look forward to.

Yer you go again Sin - changing the goalposts

You say Irish players are unpopular in NZ and when a number of us say it is not the case you change the arguement.

There may well be mutterings about BOD in NZ
There may well be mutterings about Umaga in Ireland

(Both pretty low key I have to say)

but that does not translate into Irish players being unpopular in NZ as a whole

Keatley would be a joke - I'd rather see Jackson on the plane than Keatley.

Keatley either has to step up or he will not make it at Provincial level let alone National level.

geoff998rugby wrote:Yer you go again Sin - changing the goalposts

You say Irish players are unpopular in NZ and when a number of us say it is not the case you change the arguement.

There may well be mutterings about BOD in NZ
There may well be mutterings about Umaga in Ireland

(Both pretty low key I have to say)

but that does not translate into Irish players being unpopular in NZ as a whole

If you cared to actually finish reading the post i made, I also posted that they think Irish players (like BOD & POC) are over-rated.

edit: this is what I posted and you missed:

Pretty much anyone who was on that tour were regarded as over-rated and the NZ press anyway have been hugely dismissive about Ireland players, though beating Australia in the world cup might have changed that a bit (and even though O'Gara didn't start that match, he was the outhalf for the last 30 minutes!)

Sin é wrote:
If you cared to actually finish reading the post i made, I also posted that they think Irish players (like BOD & POC) are over-rated.

Who are "they" Sin? Do you speak for the whole of NZ now?

Just a reminder that this is 2012 and the Lions tour was in 2005.

Rory Best, Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy in particular seemed very highly rated by the NZ media during last years RWC and O'Driscoll is held in very high regard by the NZ players, regardless of the Lions tour.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
If you cared to actually finish reading the post i made, I also posted that they think Irish players (like BOD & POC) are over-rated.

Who are "they" Sin? Do you speak for the whole of NZ now?

Just a reminder that this is 2012 and the Lions tour was in 2005.

Rory Best, Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell, Cian Healy in particular seemed very highly rated by the NZ media during last years RWC and O'Driscoll is held in very high regard by the NZ players, regardless of the Lions tour.

The "they" is the NZ media (It would be great if you could all actually finish reading the post before jumping down by neck).

You might also note that I said that beating Australia might have changed their attitudes a bit - but from what I've read prior to the Australia game they didn't rated any Irish player (including BOD). Don't forget what happened on our last tour down there when playing NZ (the Heislip's red card game). The only one to get any praise after that match was Tony Buckley!

I'd say that most the AB players have respect for Irish players (and particularly Munster because of Munster's history with the ABs and of course when you have all time AB greats like Cullen & Howlett playing alongside POC & O'Gara).

Heaslips red card game...hmm is that O'Garas yellow card game? If I recall Ireland got a fair bit of praise for scoring 4 tries in that game and not just buckley.

4 Irish players were in the team of the tournament after the group stages if I recall correctly.

Kearney is another one highly rated I believe as is Leamy.

People are kidding themselves. In NZ most of them couldnt find Ireland on a map and they are like the Aussies in that they dont have a clue about the players...they only remember BOD because of the Umaga thing. The only team they respect/fear are the French from the NH teams. They pretty much expect to win against any of the other NH teams.


The only thing they will remember about Ireland and the Irish players is that during the WC there was a great p.ss up after the Aus game...

Madigan to go. The sooner Sexton is consigned to backup the better. Sexton is only currently slightly better than an ageing ROG and even that is debatable (great defense though pity about everything else).

rodders wrote:Heaslips red card game...hmm is that O'Garas yellow card game? If I recall Ireland got a fair bit of praise for scoring 4 tries in that game and not just buckley.

4 Irish players were in the team of the tournament after the group stages if I recall correctly.

Kearney is another one highly rated I believe as is Leamy.

They didn't actually get much praise. The ABs had switched off by then. Yes it is the same game that O'Gara got a yellow card for a professional foul. Heislip got a Red Card (which tend to stand out more in people's memories considering why he got it!).

My point is that any Irish players who were on the Lions Tour took a bit of a bashing for all being over-rated. The Lions hype machine put them up there for ridicule by the NZ press and I suppose its hard to lose that over-hyped tag once its acquired. Leamy & Kearney missed that tour so the NZ press haven't really had an opportunity to go after them.

DOD wrote: In NZ most of them couldnt find Ireland on a map

They don't have google maps in NZ??.......

DOD wrote:People are kidding themselves. In NZ most of them couldnt find Ireland on a map and they are like the Aussies in that they dont have a clue about the players...they only remember BOD because of the Umaga thing. The only team they respect/fear are the French from the NH teams. They pretty much expect to win against any of the other NH teams.


The only thing they will remember about Ireland and the Irish players is that during the WC there was a great p.ss up after the Aus game...

Madigan to go. The sooner Sexton is consigned to backup the better. Sexton is only currently slightly better than an ageing ROG and even that is debatable (great defense though pity about everything else).

And there you have it. DOD speaks for the New Zealand people!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

DOD wrote:People are kidding themselves. In NZ most of them couldnt find Ireland on a map and they are like the Aussies in that they dont have a clue about the players...they only remember BOD because of the Umaga thing. The only team they respect/fear are the French from the NH teams. They pretty much expect to win against any of the other NH teams.


The only thing they will remember about Ireland and the Irish players is that during the WC there was a great p.ss up after the Aus game...

Madigan to go. The sooner Sexton is consigned to backup the better. Sexton is only currently slightly better than an ageing ROG and even that is debatable (great defense though pity about everything else).

And there you have it. DOD speaks for the New Zealand people!

And here is one who speaks for the deluded....(and slightly deranged)....

DOD wrote:
And here is one who speaks for the deluded....(and slightly deranged)....

Well someone has to represent us.......

DOD wrote:
And here is one who speaks for the deluded....(and slightly deranged)....

Coming from a Kidney fanboy, I take that as a compliment!

SecretFly wrote:It don't matter who shows up but rather how we play. I keep saying it, and it's still true.

Madigan will not necessarily play like Madigan if he turns up in New Zealand in an Irish shirt. The changes needed are in Irish coaching mentality. It's too easy to say Madigan would bring more to the table than either Sexton or O'Gara.... if his player companions have conflicting rules of engagement, and he has his own orders from on high, then he won't.

Yeah this is the key point,Kidney won't allow Madigan to play the way he can so it doesn't matter if he goes or not.If he does end up touring he'll just end up kicking up and unders all game and DOD and Sin will be on here saying he's not up to it.