Scarlets vs Munster - Playoff battle heating up

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Written by Rugby Dreamer

The Scarlets had only lost once at home in the Rabo Direct Pro 12 this season. They had also lost the last 14 games in all competitions they had played in against the day’s opponents, Munster. Both facts were something for the local supporters, who had turned out in large numbers, to equally celebrate and despair.

Munster, often incorrectly perceived to be an aging side, were still trying to cope with the smart of being knocked out of the Heineken Cup by a fellow province. Could they then handle losing to a team that for the last five years they have had such a strangle hold on?

The match was set to be a nail biter, with both teams evenly matched at the injury ravaged end of the season, and both vying for a play-off spot.
The game began quietly enough, with the official of the day, Alain Rolland, making his presence felt, which was to set the tone for the rest of the match.

It took just over ten minutes for the first points to appear. Munster had been pressuring the Scarlets deep in their own 22, until a crunching tackle helped enforce a turnover. The Scarlets then ran a sublime length of the pitch try, with the ball going through the hands of at nine Scarlets players, to send wing Sean Lamont over in the corner.

This seemed to be the signal for the floodgates to open, as within a few minutes Munster had scored a try of their own, coming from a Scarlets error (to be a theme of the evening) from their lineout in their 22, to send Ryan crashing through some very weak defending.

Seventeen minutes on the clock and it was 7-7, with very little separating either side.

The rest of the first half, apart from one gleaming move from Munster that sent Zebo over (with the aid from the TMO), continued to be a turgid, stop-start affair. The scrums failed to function and with Munster playing as Munster do and smothering the breakdown, ignoring the need to release the tackled player, and the officials happy to let them. The Scarlets seemed incapable of helping themselves though, where even any half chances were snuffed out by their own unforced errors.

An exchange of penalties saw the first half end 10 – 17 to the visitors, although their lead was slightly overshadowed by Tommy O’Donnell having to be stretchered off the pitch, which looked to hopefully be a precautionary measure.

The second half saw an improvement from the home side, and with the visitors sticking to their spoiling game plan. With teams so evenly matched, in what was such a key encounter, were given no chance to express themselves in what was turning out to be an increasingly frustrating encounter. Munster offered little to nothing, whilst the Scarlets kept trying to apply pressure but to no avail.

It wasn’t until the 54th minute that the Scarlets notched more points on the board to make it 10 – 20.

A few minutes later, a brilliant angle cut by backrow Aaron Shingler, led to an excellent try, after the Scarlets had been doggedly trying to move up field. Priestland converted.

What followed were periods of Scarlets pressure that failed time and again through poor handling, poor control at the breakdown and poor kicking, to be converted into points. It was not until the 71st minute that they managed to level the scores to make it a nervous last ten minutes for the Scarlets faithful, who had remained all match in good voice, despite the exasperating nature of the game.

Could the Scarlets finally overcome their fierce rivals Munster and put themselves in with a chance of making the play-offs? Could Munster grind out yet another win to keep their play-off chance alive? Neither side had been spectacular, or allowed to be, in this match, yet the commitment and ferocity from both sides was clear to see.

Ten minutes of extreme Scarlets pressure in the end, with Munster doing their best to spoil every facet of play, led to no penalties nor even an attempt at a drop goal, and saw the match finishing as an incredibly unsatisfying draw. Neither team looked happy; the Scarlets fans for the first time fell silent.

Munster still limp on towards the end of the season with the prospect of silverware to play for. The Scarlets look to be ending another season just shy of the top four, again having to live with the label of being the “nearly” side, with no one but themselves to blame. The disconsolate look of apology full back Liam Williams flashed to the supporters in the North Stand as he applauded his thanks, said far more than any words could.

The biggest disappointment though was that despite some shining displays from Warren, Shingler, Zebo and Dineen, the game wasn’t allowed to flow. Two key aspects, the breakdown and the scrum, were not under the control of the match official, who showed remarkable lack of feeling towards the running of a game. Often after realising his mistake with one call, it appeared that Rolland would immediately award the next penalty to the previously wrongly penalised team, in the appearance of making amends, with calls at some times that left both sets of players, baffled. Whilst the result itself was a disappointment to the 10,741 supporters who had made their way to Parc Y Scarlets, it was the manner in which the game was allowed (or not allowed) to be played, that truly left such a frustrating feeling.

Full time score: 20 - 20

Attendance: 10,741

Man of the Match: Adam Warren

My Man of the Match: Aaron Shingler

Scarlets: Liam Williams, G North, A Warren, S Jones, S Lamont, R Priestland, G Davies, R Jones, M Rees capt, D Manu, S Timani, D Day, A Shingler, J Turnbull, B Morgan.

Replacements: T Knoyle for G Davies (61), S Gardner for R. Jones (74), E Phillips for M Rees (61), P John for Manu (65), K Murphy for Timani (55).
Munster: F Jones; L O'Dea; J Murphy; L Mafi; S Zebo; I Keatley; C Murray; D Kilcoyne; M Sherry; BJ Botha; M O'Driscoll; P O'Connell capt; D Ryan; T O'Donnell; P O'Mahony.

Replacements: I Dineen for Jones (65), T O'Leary for Murray (61), S Archer for Botha (71), D O'Callaghan for O'Driscoll (67), P Butler for O'Donnell (38).
Not Used: D Varley, W du Preez, S Deasy.
Att: 10,741

Referee: Alain Rolland (IRFU)

Assistant Referees: Gwyn Morris and David Jones (Both WRU)

Citing Commissioner: Jeff Mark (WRU)

TMO: Nigel Whitehouse (WRU)

http://v2journal.com/scarlets-v-munster.html

rugbydreamer wrote:Apart from perhaps View, please find me a Scarlets fan that has blamed the ref for the loss

And of course I mind when someone disagrees! I think I'm right Not stopping people debating the point back though, that's the whole aim of this forum, no?

And i honestly find it quite funny that you think I'm hostile in my responses, when from past experiences, it's generally you I find that get's that way

Debating is absolutely fine, I love a good debate, but often there isn't a need for the extra "anyone who thinks such and such is delusional".

Well there you go, perfect example of different opinions

"You may disagree with him on the pitch but you agree with his decision"

eh?

How can you both diagree and agree at the same time?

I disagree with him, and I still respect him, it's perfectly easy to do both. He was genuinely, along with his assistants, just not very good yesterday. I don't see why this shouldn't be discussed?

The Scarlets made exactly the same mistakes we did against Brive. It's maddening, but we know where we're at.

To comment on the game as a spectacle, idealy you wouldn't want to comment on the referree (see Joubert's performance in the Wales v France GS decider, he was excellent). Rolland made that impossible with how he officiated the game.

Basically, you might be annoyed but you get on with it, a marginal call goes your way another day.

Joubert wasn't that great against France.

Joubert was fantastic in that you didn't notice him, it's how referee's should be.

Rolland ruined the game, he had absolutely no feel for it, no control at the scrums or breakdown and made some howlers of decisions. The commentary team were actually laughing at him at the end. He essentially made the game focus on him, instead of on the two sides playing. (please note, I have no where said he benefited one side over the other, so please don't label me as a "whinging" fan. All I want to see is good rugby, he didn't allow it)

I thought Wales got away with a lot as did France. As I said to Alyn yesterday, people would give out if they let too much go, you can't win.

rugbydreamer wrote:Joubert was fantastic in that you didn't notice him, it's how referee's should be.

Rolland ruined the game, he had absolutely no feel for it, no control at the scrums or breakdown and made some howlers of decisions. The commentary team were actually laughing at him at the end. He essentially made the game focus on him, instead of on the two sides playing. (please note, I have no where said he benefited one side over the other, so please don't label me as a "whinging" fan. All I want to see is good rugby, he didn't allow it)

George Clancy is very similar. Has Ruined several games I have seen this year.

Too pedantic, no empathy.

rugbydreamer wrote:
My side didn't lose, so it's not "sour grapes", it's a statement of fact Thomond, and I don't see why it's somehow unacceptable to call a ref out on a poor display?

Munster fans might be happy with such a poor standard, but I'm not. This league deserves better.

It's unacceptable if a Welsh person does it, didn't you know?

There are a lack of refs for the Rabo, which leaves us with Irish and two welsh ones.

Maybe not, I've been discussing elsewhere that perhaps tis just that the laws need simplifying. Rolland did not help the game though, and just because I'm a Scarlet and Welsh, I don't see why it's somehow not okay for me to discuss it

Dreamer, already you completely prove the point I made earlier. You can call other people delusional, advise them to watch the game again but you say "oh but it is just my opinion". If Thomond (and others) suggest you are a whinging fan, I thought you can take it and you will just debate back? What is the difference between someone calling you that and you calling people delusional? Major double standards going on here.

rory, I think you're just annoyed that I called you delusional and you couldn't argue your point back

The difference here is that no matter when a Welsh fan has a genuine gripe at a ref, regardless of the result, it's seen as "whinging" and we're told not to discuss it. Big difference.

But that's the two-headed coin right there dreamer.

If the laws of rugby were enforced in full, the referee would give a penalty or free kick at every scrum and most rucks. The game wouldn't last more than two or three phases at a time. For practical reasons, he won't give every penalty because he wants the game to flow. Fans complain if the game is broken up by constant whistling but also if he doesn't penalise the opposition team enough.

Whilst many teams just work out what area he isn't going to penalise (given it's impossible to penalise everything) and take advantage.

The real culprit is the complexity of the laws- not the referee, even if he does have a particularly bad day.

Yeah that is exactly it dreamer, though if you can read, all my opinions on North are on the previous page. Very mature response though.

I think it is due to the consistency of the whinging RD. In general I don't see Irish posters for example have many gripes with the ref, or they at least recognise that the better team won regardless of the decision (Ferris and Davies incidents in 6N for example)

The Welsh fans on here are great people but at times I think the ref is a scapegoat, and is their first port of call.

rugbydreamer wrote:rory, I think you're just annoyed that I called you delusional and you couldn't argue your point back

The difference here is that no matter when a Welsh fan has a genuine gripe at a ref, regardless of the result, it's seen as "whinging" and we're told not to discuss it. Big difference.

The boy who cried wolf comes to mind, but I agree with you. Valid, constructive criticism should always be allowed.

Oh no, I get that completely Notch, my gripe with Rolland si that the calls he was making were just plain wrong . As in for all the things he could have pinged, he chose the one that wasn't actually there!

The teams at time were really struggling as to even go about how to play it because they didn't know what he was going to blow his whistle over next.

Agree with you on the laws though, they really don't help.

Thomond - just because some Welsh fans use a ref as a scapegoat, doesn't mean we all do, and I don't like it when we're all labelled thus, is all

I caught some of the game on S4C and bar one or two things, he let go on both sides, I would have agreed with pretty much every decision.

The laws are a bit of a problem but I think some people just complain anyway. If you look at boards.ie and/or Munsterfans, you will see complaints about refs after every Irish,Munster,Leinster or Ulster match. Some people just like giving out. Fair enough, suppose it would be like labelling all Irish people farmers. I'm off to get some milk (it's not direct from the cow, more cow adjacent)

How is calling someone a whinging fan adding to the debate?

I said earlier I think it's a bit rich for Ireland fans having a go at us because they think we are blaming the ref. We haven't, we are commenting on his performace. Rollands performances were also commented on a lot during the 6 Nations, I didn't see you tell England fans they were blaming the ref? If you want to see blaming the ref pick any of your last three losses to Wales .

I also thought Joubert was faultess in the Wales v France game. He was also faultless in every world cup game apart from the final perhaps. Probably the worlds best right now.

And to the guy from outer Mongolia. I shave my pecs but I don't use fake tan, I use sunbeds .

Also, you have to remember that a lot of Irish people are excellent WUMs. When someone is already wound up, sometimes people like to turn the crank a few more times out of badness... it's best not to take things too seriously, essentially rugby or pretty much everything most of us say on here.

But enough of these unwholesome generalisations!

Lads whats say we draw a line under the whinging fans thing. This is meant to be a discussion about the Scarlets v Munster.

Create another thread for a general debate about moaning fans/referee respect I suggest.

Another match that suggested Keatley won't ever really manage to oust ROG. That dreadful kick to touch was a howler.

Munster look slightly more threatening with him going forward Stag, mainly beacue he stands flatter.

Morg, there was some complaining alright, I doubt you would find a single person who wouldn't say that Wales were deserving winners of the game though.

ah yeah, I really felt for him for that (after cheering ) he looked gutted bless him. Not sure why you guys went for the corner then either really, should have gone for the 3 points.

Re-watched the game this morning and tehre was only really one phase of play where we could have set up a DG, but instead of driving forward and laying the ball back to go through another couple of phases to get it right, Emyr bless him tried a wonder offload instead and POC got the turnover. Soooooooooo frustrating!!

Ah you would find them Thom. There are always plenty of people who come out of the woodwork, even if most accept thats the way it goes. There's no shortage of hypocrites on the internet like.

Not on V2 Notch. There would be a few like.

I agree massively about standing flatter Thomond. ROG is killling our attack but our backup options simply are not good enough.

Dreamer I dont think he would have made the kick to be honest and think he knew it too.

Thomond, I doubt you'd find a Scarlet fan who'd say Munster were undeserving of their 'draw' . Ospreys will win the league again anyway .

Yeah, I suppose there are a few. I thought you were speaking more generally.

Ireland does do moral outrage in sports of course. Don't mention the worlds "Thierry Henry" (too soon?).

I think Keatley is a confidence player, he has very little at the moment. There are very few guys who could replace ROG it's nearly as difficult to replace BOD. Keatley and possibly Hanrahan could be very good but not many would be as effective for Munster as ROG was.

stag - nope I don't think he would have either. Both Rhys and Stevo were stood in line with me and the drop was just never on, and neither are the best at them anyways.

Rhys needs to seriously look at his performance though, he was really just not good. SOme of his tactical kicking was shocking.

I have changed the OP to feature the excellent write up that Rugby wrote

http://v2journal.com/scarlets-v-munster.html

Thomond to be honest I think the term "confidence player" is another way of saying mentally weak. We dont need ROGV2 but we need a good flyhalf like Sexton or Madigan.

Keatley doesnt look it to me.

James McKinney should move to Munster.

The argument would probably be made by some Munster "SuperFans" that Sexton is weak mentally,seeing as his kicking at international level hasn't been incredible,I don't agree with it though. I would love Madigan, he is to use an American term "A Baller".


I don't think Keatley is a long term solution but he is grand in the short term like iHumph.

I actually quite like McKinny however not sure he should move. By next season we'll see Keatley and Hanrahan battling it out, the latter a player I have some more hope for.

Keatley was pretty good in defence, and being a confidence player doesn't always hinder someone.

Sure Rhys P is one, and he's no1 for Wales (which depending on who you are is either a v good, or a v bad thing!)

Dreamer, you just said in an earlier post that he didn't take a drop goal opportunity as he lacks confidence in them. That potenially cost you a win.

How many games have been decided by a pressure kick or drop goal.

Biggar should start for Wales, his form is getting better and RP's is getting worse. I would never have pictured me saying such a thing about 4 weeks ago! Not seen much of Hook in France so can't judge. But yeah, Rhys had a shocker.

for the Scarlets? lots and lots and lots. However, Rhys has also one us lots of games, and that's even with his confidence being low.

arguably your team shouldn't be in the position to need a last min pressure kick to win it for you. Although credit to Rhys for getting the penalty to level it, most people around me were convinced he was going to miss, twas a superb kick frmo him.

red_stag wrote:Dreamer, you just said in an earlier post that he didn't take a drop goal opportunity as he lacks confidence in them. That potenially cost you a win.

How many games have been decided by a pressure kick or drop goal.

That's a good point. DB has nailed a few pressure kicks or drop goals in his time. RP hasn't... O'Gara does them with his eyes closed.

On the positive note we finally ended a 14 game losing streak and now won't get hammered by Leinster as a last game of the season. ;-)

rugbydreamer wrote:for the Scarlets? lots and lots and lots. However, Rhys has also one us lots of games, and that's even with his confidence being low.

arguably your team shouldn't be in the position to need a last min pressure kick to win it for you. Although credit to Rhys for getting the penalty to level it, most people around me were convinced he was going to miss, twas a superb kick frmo him.

I don't think that makes much sense. Sport is unpredictable, that's why you prepare, as best as you can, for every possible outcome. JW said that when England won the World Cup everyone knew what they had to do for the last drop goal because they had practiced it so often.

that is true, every possible outcome should be covered, but if you are aiming to be the best, wouldn't you want your team to be so good you shouldn't have to rely on a last gasp chance to win it?

Definitely see your point though

As a Dragons fan and neutral I felt that the ref was poor.It has become a "given" that most refs are homers so to see a ref bend the other way is all the more noticeable.
Reminds me of Clive Thomas,the poofball ref.He became the centre of attention in his mind and Mr Rolland is in that ego-zone.
Time to go,au revoir.

Haha in a perfect world maybe! But dreamer wouldn't it be boring if you won every game by 20 points? That's the beauty of sport, it's so unpredictable. As much as it does my heart no favours, I love the edge of the seat feeling and not knowing which way the match will swing. But like anything you have to experience the lows to really cherish the highs

noo not by 20, say by 5-8 or something, still close to be exciting, but not one that can be pinched by a last minute kick

So we're agreed, we'll thank Rolland and the other bad refs for keeping the games close and letting us enjoy them more

I wouldn't go so far as to say that!

Taffineastbourne wrote:As a Dragons fan and neutral I felt that the ref was poor.It has become a "given" that most refs are homers so to see a ref bend the other way is all the more noticeable.
Reminds me of Clive Thomas,the poofball ref.He became the centre of attention in his mind and Mr Rolland is in that ego-zone.
Time to go,au revoir.

No Welsh person is neutral when it comes to Rollers Perhaps he was favouring Munster to prove he is unbiased as a Leinsterman?

I am a Munsterman and i watched the game back last night. Rolland was not great but for both sides he was poor. I was really confused with some of his rulings. I think that it is fair to discuss a ref's performance after the match and i dont see many people blaming the ref for the outcome of the match.

eirebilly wrote:I am a Munsterman and i watched the game back last night. Rolland was not great but for both sides he was poor. I was really confused with some of his rulings. I think that it is fair to discuss a ref's performance after the match and i dont see many people blaming the ref for the outcome of the match.

+1! well, apart from the 'I am a Munsterman' bit