England player watch

First topic message reminder :

Who is booking themselves onto the plane for South Africa and who is going the other way?

By all accounts every England qualified player did themselves justice in the Quins v Leicester game.

Has Allen significantly boosted his chances?

I think an area of concern for England is our lack of competition for Dan Cole.

Who is there? Doran Jones....Henry Thomas?....

PDJ is a great prospect and would do a job. Then there' Stevens and Wilson, of which neither have been looking too great this season. After that, there is Thomas and Harden

I think Doran Jones is good

Stevens fills me no confidence at all....

Harden is ok...and Thomas at 20 is probably the best hope...

I think most people were lobbying for Allen to be part of the squad last season when he and Barritt were the stand out 12's in the country. He has been very unlucky with injuries this season but now the rust has gone and he is getting games under his belt he is starting to show that form again. He has been outstanding the last 2 weeks and he outshone JTH after a difficult start to the game.

Flood continues to show why it will be ludicrous if he isn't back in the squad and to be honest starting again for England.

I have also been very impressed with Lowe recently and to be honest Manu looked a little out of sorts on Saturday though I am hoping that is just compared to the high expectations I have of him.

Uncapped Players on current form who should be included for SA tour;

Rob Miller
Christian Wade
Jonathan Joseph
George Lowe
Freddie Burns
George Ford
Luke Wallace
Joe Launchbury
Henry Thomas
Jamie George
Tom Youngs
Henry Thomas

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Doran Jones is good

Stevens fills me no confidence at all....

Harden is ok...and Thomas at 20 is probably the best hope...

It's a worrying situation, Dan Cole has been so durable but you suspect that it can't carry on forever.

Rupert Harden can cut it at AP level, but international level is another step up. Would he cope with it? It's really difficult to say.

Henry Thomas is where Joe Marler was last year, they might bring take him along for the training experience but I can’t seem him getting any game time.

What about Davey Wilson? Must admit that he's dropped off my radar a little bit this year. But he might be struggling with increased competition from Kane Palmer-Newport and Anthony Perinese next season.

for the bench i would so so much prefer doran-jones to stevens. yes Stevens covers both sides, but he does it badly and his scrummaging is a liability, he is a penalty machine at the breakdown and his carrying is nowhere near where it was. Doran-jones covers both sides, and is a strong scrummager and shows around the park reasonably well. i actually cant see what stevens on current form since he came back from his ban has done to get near a place on the bench. id have wilson over him as well.

different topic, has anyone seen how billy vunipola is getting on now hes getting some decent game time for wasps? assuming he will be a seriously heavy duty carrier but hows his skillset and fitness?

We have young talent coming online en masse and a coach who is willing to give youth it's head so it begs the questions:

Will we be in the top 3 sides in the world......

in 6 months?

in 12 months?

in 18 months?

in 2 years?

at RWC 2015?

ever again?

different topic, has anyone seen how billy vunipola is getting on now hes getting some decent game time for wasps? assuming he will be a seriously heavy duty carrier but hows his skillset and fitness?

Not ready for international rugby I don't think. He's a bit of a wrecking ball but his work rate isn't big enough for that of an international 8.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9222180/England-consider-taking-19-year-old-Leicester-fly-half-George-Ford-on-their-tour-to-South-Africa-in-June.html

Rumours persist that George Ford will go on tour to SA. I'd imagine he'll be the sub option for the mid week team with Burns starting and Flood/Farrell playing the weekend tests. Big ask for the supremely talented 19 year old as despite his many skills he only weighs in at 12 and a half stone (according to that article) and isn't the most physical of presences in defence. His display in the LV Cup Final may have convinced Lancaster to take a gamble on the young 10.

There's going to be some big big boys on that tour, and I'd be worried if I were George Ford....

I know he's a good little defender, but the combination of being only 19, and weighing a heck of a lot less than anyone else on the field may get the better of him.

Do you agree with it though Sam? Is there really any need to rush him into the main England set up when the likes of Flood, Hodgson, Farrell and Burns are available?

I personally would rather not see him rushed into it. He should be helping England win the U20's tournament.

Valuable touring and training experience and 20 mins at the end of each midweek tour match against what i understand will not be particularly strong opposition. Bring it on.

bluestonevedder wrote:There's going to be some big big boys on that tour, and I'd be worried if I were George Ford.... :vomit:

I know he's a good little defender, but the combination of being only 19, and weighing a heck of a lot less than anyone else on the field may get the better of him.

True, but Lambie isn't a big lad, neither is JOC and they have turned out ok! There is obviously a risk that Ford have more of a Tait type debut. I think that it is probably worth taking someone like Burns though, as although also small, he is probably a season or 2 ahead of Ford in terms of experience and development

As opposed to what I said about Farrell needing an attacking 9 and 12, Ford could probably do with a lump or at least excellent defender at 12 (JTH or Barritt) and a pacy, hard tackling 7 to cover his channel

Seems sensible CJ

JOC is listed as about 14 stone and Lambie at just over 14 stone (good old Wiki). In that respect Ford is giving away a stone and a half in weight. I'm in two minds about Ford's summer, the lad can certainly tackle and did so very well in the LV Cup final against Saints and pretty well against Bath (who had some BIG ball carriers running at him). I'd argue he offers enough rounded skills to be a benefit even with his lack of physicality, certainly the Boks would quickly appreciate his ability to pin them back and pressure their full back with kicks yet still be able to stand flat and find holes in the opposition defence.

However, it would be as Tri says 20 mins at the end of each Mid Week game and no test action. Maybe he would be better served at the JWC where he shone last year and where he would be more in his comfort zone. Having said that the most important thing for his development is that he gets a full pre season with the Tigers fitness team who will be looking at his strength and conditioning and getting him up to the same size as JOC and Lambie (who are both a couple of years older). A tough call for Lancaster, he needs to look long term on young Ford though.

With Flood being back on fine form theres really no excuse for taking Hodgson on tour this summer other than conservatism/loyalty and all the things Johnson was hammered for. Obviously Farrell is a given but that does give the chance for someone like Burns or Ford to go and start at least one midweek plus be the injury cover.
the selection may depend on when England finally sort out a backs coach and if he wants to stick to the Saracens style or look at a running 10, but risk one who cant tackle very well.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:With Flood being back on fine form theres really no excuse for taking Hodgson on tour this summer other than conservatism/loyalty and all the things Johnson was hammered for. Obviously Farrell is a given but that does give the chance for someone like Burns or Ford to go and start at least one midweek plus be the injury cover.
the selection may depend on when England finally sort out a backs coach and if he wants to stick to the Saracens style or look at a running 10, but risk one who cant tackle very well.

Flood should be the starting 10. Are we not all in agreement about that?

Seabiscuit - here's some grist for you biscuit factory mill - Heynecke Meyer is about to do all the things that Martin Johnson got hammered for.....

Heynecke Meyer is about to do all the things that Martin Johnson got hammered for.....

Doesn't suprise me, he was selected as the Tigers coach back in 2009 therefore I'd expect conservatism and evolution rather than revolution of the team. Loffreda was the last coach selected at Tigers who wanted revolution in terms of squad members and he lasted less than a season (senior players demanded his removal).

Meyer is no mug he'll have SA strong at the set pieces, competing at the breakdown and playing territory. Farrell is a great points kicker but when it comes to kicking too touch he is average so expect Meyer to pick a 15 with a massive boot, Flood is a little more accurate but lacks Farrell's range so if he's in expect a counter attacking 15 to run it back into England territory. Also expect our back three to be fielding a lot of kicks.

I'd personally be patient as regards Ford. I don't think he'll benefit much from being taken along as a passenger, and I don't think he's ready to face the Boks.

I'd take Flood (clear first choice), Farrell (bench) and Burns.

Allen's form has made 12 more interesting. Barritt and JT-H present quite similar options at 12, whereas Allen gives a different dimension to the role. Given the midweek games I think it would be good to see Farrell and Allen play together. Perhaps Allen may compensate for the lack of creativity in Farrell.

1st XV: Flood, Barritt, Tuilagi

Midweek: Farrell, Allen, Lowe (or Joseph)

It's going to be a cracking tour. So much promise.

I like your suggestions there Scot. Think Joseph needs to go ahead of Lowe though, as an express pace option. I'd also be tempted with Trinder for the same reasons, just to offer some variation on the power of Tuilagi, Barritt and JTH. May looks likely to be involved as well and offers an option at 13

I agree - I'd definitely take Joseph. Not just pace but great balance. He's my outside tip for the Lions next summer. Really rate him.

I included Lowe as a power option running outside Allen (Lowe has picked some great lines recently), but I think Joseph could just as well fulfil that role.

As you say, with Trinder, some nice options gathering at 13. No need for Matt Banahan at centre after all!

Triangulation wrote: Heynecke Meyer is about to do all the things that Martin Johnson got hammered for.....

What, picking a load of South Africans?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Triangulation wrote: Heynecke Meyer is about to do all the things that Martin Johnson got hammered for.....

What, picking a load of South Africans?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Triangulation wrote: Heynecke Meyer is about to do all the things that Martin Johnson got hammered for.....

What, picking a load of South Africans?

That's a bit harsh PSW.

There were some New Zealanders as well.

There were some New Zealanders as well.

Pretty much all NZers weren't they? Waldrom, Hartley, Hape and Flutey. Stevens the only one you could possibly label a Saffa though they'd probably disown him with scrummaging skills like that (mind you they haven't disowned Jannie Du Plessis).

As you say, with Trinder, some nice options gathering at 13. No need for Matt Banahan at centre after all!

Not even at IC with Barritt, Allen, Twelvetrees and JTH (a better one dimensional big lump).

Pretty much Sam! Just Fourie.....?

Stevens really is abysmal.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

There were some New Zealanders as well.

Pretty much all NZers weren't they? Waldrom, Hartley, Hape and Flutey. Stevens the only one you could possibly label a Saffa though they'd probably disown him with scrummaging skills like that (mind you they haven't disowned Jannie Du Plessis).

As you say, with Trinder, some nice options gathering at 13. No need for Matt Banahan at centre after all!

Not even at IC with Barritt, Allen, Twelvetrees and JTH (a better one dimensional big lump).

And in the longer term, Daly and Mills and the return of Geraghty... Centres look healthier than they have in a long time

so were like london buses.....

loads of one player position and then loads of t'other but nver depth everywhere at the same time in spite of our large playing pool.

pah!

I think Lowe has earned a spot on the tour.

Not only his form recently...but over the last couple of years he has been excellent.

Flood needs to start for me on the tour...

Geraghty will not get back in the England squad unless he has a blinder next season. There are so many better centres coming through.

Ditto Cirpriani at 10.

Surely Ford would be better served in leading the U20 side at the JWC than making a couple of short appearances from the bench in midweek games?

Twelvetrees should be going to SA and can provide backup to Burns for the midweek games.


With Allen looking back to some of his jinking best at the weekend, I'm sure many will be advocating him to take over the IC berth. My opinion has always been that his skill set is best suited to OC and that he doesn't distribute enough for the IC spot.

A number of people were concerned that Barritt doesn't distribute enough at 12, well the stats show that Allen distributes even less.

I did an analysis last year of different centres and it showed that Allen averaged 5 passes a games, Barritt averaged 7. This season Allen has averaged 4 passes a game (a third of the ball he receives), Barritt has averaged 7 again (half the ball he receives).

I'd definitely take Allen along as a centre (in place of JTH covering 12 & 13), he's a class player with quality running lines, feet and defence, but I don't think he is what England need at 12 in the long run. Barritt remains for now and Twelvetrees gets the midweek spot.

Really? That stat surprises me. Not that Barritt distributes more than many think, already knew that, but that Allen doesn't. I swear he did back when he played for Gloucester

Really? That stat surprises me. Not that Barritt distributes more than many think, already knew that, but that Allen doesn't. I swear he did back when he played for Gloucester

Barritt steps in at first receiver and acts as a secondary playmaker quite a bit where as Allen doesn't. Tigers use the 15 as the second play maker and utilise Murphy rather than the IC though that is obviously not always the case. If the Sarries 10 is in contact the scrum half will move the ball to the 12 who will distribute, if Flood is in contact Youngs will pick, step and pass to distribute so it's not just the relevant passing games of the players but their attack structures as well. Barritt does have a better passing game then a lot of people give him credit for, his handling is very soft and very quick.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Really? That stat surprises me. Not that Barritt distributes more than many think, already knew that, but that Allen doesn't. I swear he did back when he played for Gloucester

Barritt steps in at first receiver and acts as a secondary playmaker quite a bit where as Allen doesn't. Tigers use the 15 as the second play maker and utilise Murphy rather than the IC though that is obviously not always the case. If the Sarries 10 is in contact the scrum half will move the ball to the 12 who will distribute, if Flood is in contact Youngs will pick, step and pass to distribute so it's not just the relevant passing games of the players but their attack structures as well. Barritt does have a better passing game then a lot of people give him credit for, his handling is very soft and very quick.

Well said! The way a club is asking a player to play is not necessarily the limit of their playing ability. A good international coach should be able to recognise that and be able to see the full range of possibilities.

I'd say the same for JTH. Quins use him primarily as a strike runner, but he also has a very good offload and a blistering pass. I believe in the right setup he could play a more creative role, but given that Quins have players like Lowe and Brown who are strong at utilising the space he can create, there is less call to use him that way. The main thing he lacks for international rugby is a kicking game.

The issue many have with JTH is that he shows a very limited game all the time. There is plan A which is take the ball in at pace cutting inside the 12 to the 10/12 channel looking to break the first tackle and make an offload. Devastating when it works (it normally does the first time or two) but it gets found out and the there is nothing else, no clever feet and no real passing game. As Poorfour points out there's no kicking game either. He needs to work on his footwork and turn of pace so that he offers more than just the one option in attack.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The issue many have with JTH is that he shows a very limited game all the time. There is plan A which is take the ball in at pace cutting inside the 12 to the 10/12 channel looking to break the first tackle and make an offload. Devastating when it works (it normally does the first time or two) but it gets found out and the there is nothing else, no clever feet and no real passing game.

As we all saw at the weekend against Tigers. JTH started like a battleship, but as soon as Allen and Co. cottoned on to his plan, he was completely nullified.

It's the "no real passing game" accusation that I disagree with. JTH does have a passing game, but Quins' tactics don't give him as much opportunity to use it. As Triangulation said in response to your observations of Barritt, just because a club uses a player one way, doesn't mean that's the only way they can play.

For instance, I've not seen much of Barritt's kicking game, mainly because Farrell and Hodgson are both excellent tactical kickers. Doesn't mean it's not there.

True but if you go back to the 2010 GP (as it was then) final you will see Barritt utilising his grubber to good effect on a number of occasions to turn the Leicester defence and pressure Murphy.

I'm happy to be proved wrong but I can't remember any instances of JTH putting a flat pass for a midfield runner to attack or working any moves with the outside backs. He has a very handy offloading game but that's as far as his handling skills go. Even so it's not the main concern, his footwork in defence and attack is the main issue, to be stepped by Allen once but then to fall for the same step a second time and then get left behind both times is not good for someone with international aspirations.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Sam. I've seen him unleash a very fast, very flat pass on several occasions. He's had it in his kit bag for at least two years now, just doesn't get asked to use it that often.

Allen definitely won the second half last week - but the form he was in I doubt there are many other 12s who could have lived with him.

I hope Haskells training ability has improved whilst he's been away...have you EVER seen such poor techniques????!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKI-J11lGqk&feature=relmfu

I think we need a low centre of gravity side with fast twitch muscle fibres.


Cole, Youngs, Marler, Lawes, steffan armitage, marcel garvey types

GeordieFalcon wrote:I hope Haskells training ability has improved whilst he's been away...have you EVER seen such poor techniques????!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKI-J11lGqk&feature=relmfu

I seriously don't get why he just drops the bar after the deadlifts instead of returning it to the ground and actually completing the movement. His grip gets all messed up and the weight isn't distributed properly! Shocking tekkers.

Triangulation wrote:I think we need a low centre of gravity side with fast twitch muscle fibres.


Cole, Youngs, Marler, Lawes, steffan armitage, marcel garvey types

Blimey, selecting a team based upon their anatomical body-types. That's a new one!

Shocking tekkers

Surprisingly bad technique on some of those exercises actually. For a guy as stacked as the Hask I thought there would be more care taken with his exercises.

Seriously bad- looking back I think the high pulls are the worst! His trainer has got really good form though, and you'd think that he'd say something?

Something tells me that Hask spends more time doing 'sculpting' exercises than power ones.

The high pulls are really supposed to be Power Cleans....

Haskells technique is awful on a few things...and there are quite a few different videos. Many of the guys training with Haskell perform them better. maybe Haskell is using too much wieght...as these are supposed to be strength endurance not full on strength sessions. Who knows...

His instructor should be pulling him about it though...

I think it is because he rushes them. He seems to be trying to finish before the others which is really not the point.

Yep no point what so ever Sam...just cheating yourself....

Cheating yourself and increasing the risk of injury to yourself. I used to know a mixed martial arts guy who insisted 10 super slow perfect sit ups were always better than 50 ultra fast rush ones. Same applies to most exercises.