Do Ulster have enough support for an expanded Ravenhill?

First topic message reminder :

I'm going to throw this one out there.......

After attending the Leinster game last Friday I have a few concerns about the plans to expand Ravenhill to 18,000 capacity.

The atmosphere was really poor at the memorial end against Leinster. It seemed like quite a few people there knew very little about rugby and weren't really following the game. Silence wasn't being observed for the place kicks by quite a few.

Now given that this was the last home game of the season and assuming that this was a bigger than average crowd I would be questioning how many genuine Ulster rugby and genuine rugby fans are out there right now, who will attend regular games and can we actually fill a bigger ground on a regular basis?

Will Ravenhill lose some of its atmosphere? Are there more genuine fans out there and if so why aren't they attending the games now?

Personally I think Ulster still have a lot of work to do to tap into the growing popularity of rugby union in Ireland and gain cross community support across the province.

Having been in Limerick recently and seen the infrastucture at Thomond and the community support that Munster have Ulster have a long, long way to go as a brand and an organisation.

Reaching the HEC final would be a massive boost and generate a lot of interest but I think Ulster still have to work a lot harder because I'm not convinced that just relying on their core support from traditional rugby areas will be enough, from a player or fan base perspective to build a rugby club which will be able to match Munster and Leinster in the long term.

I was massively frustrated to see both Union flags being waved at Thomond and to recently see a person in a local supermarket wearing a Munster jersey. The idea that anyone, casual fan, or otherwise, in Ulster would support Munster before their own province fills me with deep frustration. These are small things but they are symbolic of the problems that Ulster need to overcome if we want to achieve Logan and Humphreys vision.

Why are Ulster flags not made readily available to fans, the way they are for Munster fans?

The Kukri store at Ravenhill had no power generator on Friday night and was lit by an assistant holding a hand torch FFS. Would that happen in Munster or Leinster a week out from a HEC SF?

Friday night games work best for the majority of Ulster supporters, understandably, but for fans in the West it is difficult to make the kick off at 7.05 pm. Munster at least make some effort to cater for fans in Cork, are Ulster branch trying hard enough to accommodate fans from across the province?

In terms of PR there seems to be a lot of hype around this Christian thing right now. Not that there's anything wrong with being a Christian, but there does seem to be often a big descrepancy between how the club and it's fans are percieved in the media and the actual reality. The McLaughlin thing obviously was a PR disaster so clearly there are big improvement needed on how the club deal with media.

Too often the term NI and Ulster is used interchangably from an Ulster perspective, which again is a small thing but it doesn't promote the image that Ulster are representing all of the 9 counties.

Small things but they add up and if we want to be the best then we need have high standards.

Anyways don't want to sound negative. There's a SF to be won and its a great time to be an Ulster fan, but looking forward I want us to be the best and we have a lot to work on to match Munster and Leinster, off the pitch as well as on it.

There's much more knowledgeable Ulster fans on here so I'd be interested on what others think.

SUFTUM !

rodders wrote:

MrsP wrote:I don't think there is any need to move away from school rugby but rather we should strengthen and build the underage Club based game and blend the 2 together.

This one probably needs a whole thread...

Having played both schoolboy and underage rugby my perception is that the standard is much higher at Schoolboy level... that said there were some very talented players in my club underage side at the time I played, with a few going on to become good AIB club players, one an Ulster pro player.

Problems though with the club system is a lack of players, Schools wouldn't let players play for the club, even if they weren't getting gametime with their school team. Things may have changed now on that?

The following two points aren't mine as such but made by a club coach and development respectively officer recently:

Clubs don't have resources to go out and recruit players and identify talent, they rely on people coming to them.

At club level there is a lack of contact time with the players vs at Schools, so the players don't get the same standard of coaching and development.

The club system probably is the way forward but I don't really see anything dramatic changing on that front.

Unfortunately not Rodders. My lads was told he should not play for a club. I'm not sure some of his teachers are all that happy with him doing athletics outside school either, even though that is where he gets proper/any coaching.

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

In NZ kiwis wear the red poppy on Anzac day so in a lot of respects very similar to Armistice day.

In Aus I think its more of a coming of age/recognition of Australia as a distinct entity from Britain . I'm mid 30's and when I talk to Aussie mates I find it funny that like St. Patricks day neither were a huge deal when we were growing up, now they are both outpourings of nationalistic pride some real some imagined or misplaced.

i don't think theres any glorification either,

"Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well"

A tribute to those ANZACs who died in Gallipoli (1934). Inscribed on the Atatürk Memorial in Turakena Bay, Gallipoli and at the Kemal Atatürk Memorial, Canberra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lE-YjjZhwc

Kingshu wrote:
If Ulster grow right a 18,000 capacity stadium is very realistic, as long as your not expecting to sell out every game, average attendance of 15,000 in 2/3years isn't that ambitious really, a very modest target TBH.

Just look at number of new fans already, Build it and they will come.

Yeah that is really the crux point. Bums on seats, punters, interest, supporters - casual and manic-, aspiring young (and old) players - across Belfast, across NI and most of all across Ulster.

I do think that 18,000 - with an average 15,000 is ambitious, but maybe realistic with a fair bit of effort and much smarter and aggressive marketing than we are seeing now.

The approach has to be top down as well as bottom up and given some of the challenges discussed in this thread I don't think it will be easy.

This is a great time to be an Ulster fan and its the key time to use the momentum to build a successful and globally recognisable brand, with the right image... something that we probably failed to do post 1999.

SUFTUM .

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

Yes all run by Western greed - apart from all those that aren't and therefore are not newsworthy. Very sad and ill informed comment Gibson

Heros or cannon-fodder?

There is no glory in War.

rodders wrote:

MrsP wrote:I don't think there is any need to move away from school rugby but rather we should strengthen and build the underage Club based game and blend the 2 together.

This one probably needs a whole thread...

Having played both schoolboy and underage rugby my perception is that the standard is much higher at Schoolboy level... that said there were some very talented players in my club underage side at the time I played, with a few going on to become good AIB club players, one an Ulster pro player.

Problems though with the club system is a lack of players, Schools wouldn't let players play for the club, even if they weren't getting gametime with their school team. Things may have changed now on that?

The following two points aren't mine as such but made by a club coach and development respectively officer recently:

Clubs don't have resources to go out and recruit players and identify talent, they rely on people coming to them.

At club level there is a lack of contact time with the players vs at Schools, so the players don't get the same standard of coaching and development.

The club system probably is the way forward but I don't really see anything dramatic changing on that front.

It prob does need it's own thread,

The way I see it is if we take two players aged 12 both at same level, one goes to rugby playing School another not. the one in the School plays with better players, against better teams and gets better coaching so when they are 18 the difference between them is night and day. and the non schools player could have had the more potentional.

But a hyrid Schools clubs, clubs only etc system we should save for another day.

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

Never celebrate. But I think we should remember and acknowledge, no?

Goosestepper wrote:

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

Yes all run by Western greed - apart from all those that aren't and therefore are not newsworthy. Very sad and ill informed comment Gibson

Oh Im very informed. My Granda fought in the Somme. He couldn't really relate most times. But when he did, I learned so much. It was horrific.
I have friends out in Afghanistan. Fighting for the Powers that be. Its all about money and control. Its madness. And it never changes.

Let it go. He did.

It is nothing to celebrate.

Anyway. No disrespect to those who lost their lives in any War. But they are sheep to the Sheperds who control this whole gig.
They always have been and they always will be. It's the sad, repetitive, continuing order of things.

Or dont you know that by now?

MrsP wrote:

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

Never celebrate. But I think we should remember and acknowledge, no?

Sorry all we're way off topic. lets drop it and find 606v3 the forum for all serious argumentitive feckers!

Kingshu wrote:
It prob does need it's own thread,

The way I see it is if we take two players aged 12 both at same level, one goes to rugby playing School another not. the one in the School plays with better players, against better teams and gets better coaching so when they are 18 the difference between them is night and day. and the non schools player could have had the more potentional.

But a hyrid Schools clubs, clubs only etc system we should save for another day.

Agreed. I don't want to knock the schools system, playing schoolboy rugby was some of the best days of my life .

However there are big flaws in the system. Thats for another thread though.....

Gibson wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:

Gibson wrote:

MrsP wrote:And, on a totally different theme, isn't ANSAC Day like Remebrance Day?

Very important to remember those whose lives were sacrificed in War. I think it helps discourage further wars rather than glorify them, no?

Let it go. I mean really.

There are continuous wars, run by Western greed, all over the Planet. Do we celebrate them too?

Who won? Who Lost? Is it halftime yet Da?

Yes all run by Western greed - apart from all those that aren't and therefore are not newsworthy. Very sad and ill informed comment Gibson

Oh Im very informed. My Granda fought in the Somme. He couldn't really relate most times. But when he did, I learned so much. It was horrific.
I have friends out in Afghanistan. Fighting for the Powers that be. Its all about money and control. Its madness. And it never changes.

Let it go. He did.

It is nothing to celebrate.

Anyway. No disrespect to those who lost their lives in any War. But they are sheep to the Shepards who control this whole gig.
They always have and they always will.

Or dont you know that by now?

As much as I'd love to get into it with you (in a respectful way) lets leave it. If you're ever in Sydney and fancy a bit of debate over a few schooners of victoria bitter please let me know

You calling me argumentitive Goose???



Anyway, I think it will take time to fill the new Stadium on a regular basis and it will depend on results in the medium term but hopefully rugby will continue to grow at grass roots in the Province!

Sorry if I offended. But its how I feel. Time to log off.

Peace & Love to all.

Gibson wrote:Sorry if I offended. But its how I feel. Time to log off.

Peace & Love to all.

+1 as the hipsters say

Goosestepper wrote:
Sorry all we're way off topic. lets drop it and find 606v3 the forum for all serious argumentitive feckers!

Aye feic off ya threadjackers! ..... I mean how the flip does an Ulster rugby thread end up drifting into the topic of war, colonism and Western greed?...... oh wait..... ....

rodders wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
Sorry all we're way off topic. lets drop it and find 606v3 the forum for all serious argumentitive feckers!

Aye feic off ya threadjackers! ..... I mean how the flip does an Ulster rugby thread end up drifting into the topic of war, colonism and Western greed?...... oh wait..... ....

you're right - sorry. to the OP;

sell either Windsor park, Raven hill or casement, better yet sell all 3.

Use the proceeds along with lottery money to build a replica of the new Dunedin stadium in NZ ( apx 30,000 I think with a roof, making it nice and cosy)

GAA in Summer, rugby and ladyball in winter. All rugby games on Saturday afternoons so that Dads gets to take the kids, Mum has the afternoon off and then picks the kids up after the match so Dad can go and get stuck into a rake of pints.

Problem solved

Sounds like a plan!

MrsP wrote:Anyway, I think it will take time to fill the new Stadium on a regular basis and it will depend on results in the medium term but hopefully rugby will continue to grow at grass roots in the Province!

MrsP I think what is needed also is to establish the league and its competitivness. Selling out league games against Munster and Leinster is easy enough with the rivalry but to the casual fan what do games against the Dragons Treviso or Glasgow hold for them?

Growing the sport as grassroots wil be hard in some areas, having grown up in West Belfast I know its down the list of favourite sports and doesnt register for most. Once they get into the schools they need to establish teams in these areas because there really isnt any, I had the choice of rugby and GAA when I was younger and choose GAA because it would have involved a lot more travel for rugby and my brother and others played GAA wheres I didnt know anyone who played rugby. So my point is its got to be more accessible and make the choice easier for the new generation

As an FYI we had 10000+ against Aironi.

Why ? - because we were in the knock out stages of the HC.

Be successful and the crowds will come

Shane Logan interview from the Leinster match programme;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/10434.php

“Commercially, all our corporate boxes are sold for next season and our sponsorships are moving forward with a significant increase, but our match attendances are static which is a disappointing... We have a way to go to catch up and overtake other teams, particularly in France. Achieving the planning permission and securing the funding for the new stadium is a major boost. Work is due to start here at the end of the year and it will give us a stadium which will be the envy of most teams in Europe The new stadium can give us the platform for that, but we need to fill the stadium to 18,000, which means an increase of around 9,000 on our average crowd.”

marty2086 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Anyway, I think it will take time to fill the new Stadium on a regular basis and it will depend on results in the medium term but hopefully rugby will continue to grow at grass roots in the Province!

MrsP I think what is needed also is to establish the league and its competitivness. Selling out league games against Munster and Leinster is easy enough with the rivalry but to the casual fan what do games against the Dragons Treviso or Glasgow hold for them?

Growing the sport as grassroots wil be hard in some areas, having grown up in West Belfast I know its down the list of favourite sports and doesnt register for most. Once they get into the schools they need to establish teams in these areas because there really isnt any, I had the choice of rugby and GAA when I was younger and choose GAA because it would have involved a lot more travel for rugby and my brother and others played GAA wheres I didnt know anyone who played rugby. So my point is its got to be more accessible and make the choice easier for the new generation

A point I completely agree with. The prestige and competitiveness of the league is just as important as getting to semis, the league is our bread and butter. When we build the new stadium if we want to fill it as often as we can we need to be competing in a league with prestige. Building the brand of Celtic Rugby just isn't important to the whole league but for Ulster as well, so it's something to consider. We're now a team that will be able to compete and win the league, so it is important to have a league which is worth something to the tap into that success vain that Leinster and Munster have tapped into.

I would love to see a ten team league, in normal sized but packed stadiums taking lumps out of each other with as many full strength sides as possible. And the old trophy.

Notch wrote:Shane Logan interview from the Leinster match programme;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/10434.php

“Commercially, all our corporate boxes are sold for next season and our sponsorships are moving forward with a significant increase, but our match attendances are static which is a disappointing... We have a way to go to catch up and overtake other teams, particularly in France. Achieving the planning permission and securing the funding for the new stadium is a major boost. Work is due to start here at the end of the year and it will give us a stadium which will be the envy of most teams in Europe The new stadium can give us the platform for that, but we need to fill the stadium to 18,000, which means an increase of around 9,000 on our average crowd.”

Seriously lads if you (Rory Mc) build it they will come

http://www.forsythbarrstadium.co.nz/stadium

Notch I've no doubt Logan knows the craic, hes not stupid, just onfield success and a stadium upgrade won't result in a 50% increase in attendence.

Theres a lot of work to be done.... I'd just like to see what the strategy is because the big issue is marketing, image and branding.

As this thread has shown, even with a small sample, a lot of us have a very different experience of growing up in Ulster and of Rugby here, despite it being a small place.

The challenge for Logan and Humphreys is to identify the different barriers preventing current fans from attending regular games and to find ways to attract new fans into the game.

Certainly it won't be possible imo to achieve Logans vision of becoming a top European club in the long term if we are only tapping <40%, for various reasons, of the potential fan and player base.

100% agree young Rodney

Jeebus Notch this is anonomous dude you trying to get me shot man! .....

Sin E is cleaning his assault rifle as we speak

The increase would need to be 100%, not 50%, no?

That's no mean feat!

A astute observation Mrs P... it would appear that I've underestimated the challenge ahead......

Its official.......

ULSTER IS IN CRISIS! ........

No Rodders!

Ulster is not in crisis!

You just aren't very good at sums!

JayMaster3000 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

MrsP wrote:Anyway, I think it will take time to fill the new Stadium on a regular basis and it will depend on results in the medium term but hopefully rugby will continue to grow at grass roots in the Province!

MrsP I think what is needed also is to establish the league and its competitivness. Selling out league games against Munster and Leinster is easy enough with the rivalry but to the casual fan what do games against the Dragons Treviso or Glasgow hold for them?

Growing the sport as grassroots wil be hard in some areas, having grown up in West Belfast I know its down the list of favourite sports and doesnt register for most. Once they get into the schools they need to establish teams in these areas because there really isnt any, I had the choice of rugby and GAA when I was younger and choose GAA because it would have involved a lot more travel for rugby and my brother and others played GAA wheres I didnt know anyone who played rugby. So my point is its got to be more accessible and make the choice easier for the new generation

A point I completely agree with. The prestige and competitiveness of the league is just as important as getting to semis, the league is our bread and butter. When we build the new stadium if we want to fill it as often as we can we need to be competing in a league with prestige. Building the brand of Celtic Rugby just isn't important to the whole league but for Ulster as well, so it's something to consider. We're now a team that will be able to compete and win the league, so it is important to have a league which is worth something to the tap into that success vain that Leinster and Munster have tapped into.

I would love to see a ten team league, in normal sized but packed stadiums taking lumps out of each other with as many full strength sides as possible. And the old trophy.

Jay I think fiddling with the league anymore will hurt it though the Italians have done that with kicking Aironi out so either way well have to go next season minus a team or get used to a team from Rome and probably end up the whipping boys for at least a year. This isnt helpful for the image of the league and undermines its credibility

Stability and brand image are important, if you look at Super Rugby, Aviva Premiership or the Top 14 they are all pulling in the same direction whereas with the Pro12 you have each Union working for themselves.

rodders wrote:

Goosestepper wrote:
Sorry all we're way off topic. lets drop it and find 606v3 the forum for all serious argumentitive feckers!

Aye feic off ya threadjackers! ..... I mean how the flip does an Ulster rugby thread end up drifting into the topic of war, colonism and Western greed?...... oh wait..... ....

Classic, rodders

I get confused and don't really know what's going on when Ulster aren't in crisis. At least when we're in crisis, I know where I stand.

When we're not in crisis - that's when I start to panic.

MrsP wrote:No Rodders!

Ulster is not in crisis!

You just aren't very good at sums!

RODDERS IN CRISIS!!

clivemcl wrote:

That looks like Gibson!

If you look at the league attendance of Leinster and Munster over the years, I think it's clear that attendance grew enormously after HC success. They both expanded their capacity at just the right time too, like Ulster are doing. So I think Ulsters attendance will grow, especially if they beat Edinburgh and even more so if they win the final.

There are posters talking about rugby being inclusive and spreading the game to areas where there is less interest. But this is equally true all over Ireland, not just Ulster. Rugby is a rapidly growing sport. But don't let that fool you into thinking it's anywhere near the top of the pile. It's not even close. I literally have one friend who follows rugby, and one co-worker who plays and follows rugby. Neither attend provincial games, but both genuinely love watching Leinster on TV. Like me. Everyone else I know supports English soccer teams and many also follow Louth or Meath in GAA.

To be fair though, after any Leinster or Ireland win in rugby, I now see kids in the park across from my house throwing a rugby ball around. That would have been a really peculiar sight 10 years ago. But they're growing up seeing O'Driscoll et all performing heroics on the field. If only Ireland could get the finger out and start playing to their potential even more kids would be inspired to play.

clivemcl wrote:

Thats the flag we should be waving.......

Notch wrote:

Sin E is cleaning his assault rifle as we speak

I've found the name called and being accused of being racist, jealous, a bigot /sectarian from the Ravenhill faithful a tad boring to be honest. You've won. I'm abstaining from commenting.

Sin old bean your comments are always (well mostly ) welcome in these parts .

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Thats the flag we should be waving.......

... the British Army connection may evoke a couple of responses...

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin E is cleaning his assault rifle as we speak

I've found the name called and being accused of being racist, jealous, a bigot /sectarian from the Ravenhill faithful a tad boring to be honest. You've won. I'm abstaining from commenting.

Ach relax, I'm only joking around man! It's purely a tongue in cheek comment.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Thats the flag we should be waving.......

... the British Army connection may evoke a couple of responses...

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin E is cleaning his assault rifle as we speak

I've found the name called and being accused of being racist, jealous, a bigot /sectarian from the Ravenhill faithful a tad boring to be honest. You've won. I'm abstaining from commenting.

Sin e as you well know if such has occurred it has been very rare and not from regulars like me, Rava, Rodders etc

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin E is cleaning his assault rifle as we speak

I've found the name called and being accused of being racist, jealous, a bigot /sectarian from the Ravenhill faithful a tad boring to be honest. You've won. I'm abstaining from commenting.

Aw come on Sin don't be like that man! Keep posting we would miss ya!

This is going back to earlier in the thread, so sorry for this, but I was struck by the idea that someone brought up by having clubs and schools of the same age grade playing in the same competition. This is a great idea and I can't believe that it hasn't been done. For every province there needs to be links across the different stages. People who play rugby in school often leave never to join a club. Maybe if there were more contact between the two this might be encouraged.

Maybe to increase attendances there could be a two for one deal for some matches during the year. And special deals for students. And free flags.

I have to say, if I were involved with marketing Ulster I would be promoting a slow transition from white to yellow. Yellow flags (the yellow flag with red hard), yellow jerseys with red trimming. Its a serious colour in terms of visual impact.

I'd also be handing out big red foam "hand of Ulster" for people especialy kids.

Who knows in the future you could have a whole see of gold trimmed with red across a modern Ravenhill - something like Perpignan do. If done at once it would be a disaster but if done right could be a masterstroke.