Remember When..................

by Knackeredknees Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Remember the good old days of about 4 seasons ago when everybody's second team was Saracens.
We were all jolly good fun with our funny little hats, plucky chaps who always made the relegation battle fun, oh and thanks for the points see you next year if you stay up.

Now we've had the cheek to actually beat you and well, thats just not cricket. We are called all sorts of names that have nothing to do with Saracens, i know its rude of us to have so many English qualified players in our side now, often more than the teams we play against. And yes how dare the council kick us out of our home at slaughtergate because we rented it, but wanted to develop it, so we have to move to a new area and share with a wendyball team.

And for the love of any god you follow how very dare we whore ourselves to marketing pondlife to fill that other stadium, yet when those loveable chaps in London Wasps( sorry geography's not my strong point, where in london is High Wycombe?)do it for St Georges day in Twickers and its a bloody good idea, well thought out plan?

Ah i miss the good old days....

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:32 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I still say, if you don't like the make-up of a team or the way they play, don't support them and there is no need to comment on them unless you are playing them. If you think they play dull rugby then beat them and demonstrate that it is the wrong move. Saracens are a private company. As long as they are supported and successful they have no financial or frankly moral obligation to play rugby that you find interesting, they are fulfilling the obligations with regards to how many English or South African players they use and the way they win, though not always thrilling and not always sensible, is legal and frankly within the spirit of the game whatever you say.

Also, as LT said, different styles of rugby playing against each other are more interesting that scoring millions of tries. Hence when Saracens played Quins and played Tigers the matches were tense and exciting and both teams in each match played their part in that. The problem with the Sarries-Falcons game was that, as noted in other threads, the execution was poor and that both teams were trying to play the same way. Sarries are a little like Nadal - they can be entertaining but need an attacking opponent to really force their aggressive game (for Sarries they have recently started that too late in the games mentioned above). If you know that before you start then why watch Sarries Falcons as a neutral?

I agree. I also think you should look at your opponents and make your gameplan accordingly. Saracens should have played with more ambition and intensity than Newcastle as the better side but instead it was a bore fest with no side really trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:35 pm

rodders wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
If you want to call them thugs like lmost other do, then that is fine, I get that a lot with SA players, even after they have been behaving for a number of years. I will argue the point without insulting you yes.

I'd like to add that the SA contingent that we've had at Ulster recently: Muller, Pienaar, Terblanche, Wannenburg are as fine of examples of exemplary sportsmen and rugby players that I've ever come across.

Ultra professional and super committed on the pitch and articulate, intelligent, gentlemen off it (from what I know). Pure class, all of them, and its an honour to have them in our club shirt -the finest ambassadors for Ulster rugby I've come across in my life time .

Totally changed my perception of SA rugby players and I couldn't speak highly enough about them.

Rodders that goes for most of the South african players, but as with any other country incidents happen and because we are seen as big, rough, tough, and selfish (that reminds me of a joke), we carry that perception.

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:39 pm

Also another point - playing with more ambition and keeping the ball in hand doesn't necessarily win the game.

Scotland in the 6 nations had the best attacking stats (except for tries) yet got the wooden spoon.

England were perceived as boring yet scored 3 tries vs France and 2 vs Ireland.

by **rodders** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:42 pm

I don't doubt it Biltong but its hard for people to get away from the visions of the old Lions tours, Springboks pride themselves on physicality and physical domination...at least that is the perception.

Like I say if theres a finer example of a sportsman than Muller or Terblanche, I've yet to see him (or her).

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Fritz van Heerden, Marco Wentzel, Joel Stransky, Glenn Gelderbloom.

Only Stransky was a big name, but all 4 were cracking lads.

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Rodders I think unfortunately some people focus on the more unsavoury circumstances such as Schalk Burger's gouge and Bakkies Botha foul play which were evident in the Lions.

Of course these are only two players.

The 2005 Lion's tour to NZ was marred by Umaga and Mealamu's brutal treatment of O Driscoll.

Does this mean all Newzealanders are dirty?

No but these two players have certainly been rightly criticised.

People generally focus on the negatives/controversy not the positives.

Who notices when a ref has a good game? If he has a bad one on the other hand......

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:52 pm

Rodders, I think we should pride ourselves on physicality and physical domination, that is us in a nutshell. We don't play rugby like the Aussies do, that is a fact, they and others teams of course want to bedazzle you with footwork, sidesteps, little offloads here and there.

When we run, you know it, because there is generally only one direction it's gonna go, when we sidestep, it looks more like cornering a rear wheel drive racing machine on a sandy road, we don't do little subtle offloads, we OFFLOAD.

That doesn't mean we aren't learning though, it is getting better and better, I read apiece on Rugby Heaven the other day, can't remember who the author was, he talks about meetings in the early nineties, where there was no technical discussions in team meetings, merely accusations of players not having the heart, or the guts.

We are learning guts is not all it is about, if only we could now learn how to play the damn referee. Whistle

by **rodders** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:53 pm

I agree Beshocked.... I mean its not like all Welsh players are cheaters like Mike Phillips....... Whistle

......

by Bathite Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:54 pm

SA have always produced huge physical players and play their rugby aggressively, which is playing to their strengths. Absolutely nothing wrong with playing that way, as it is a full contact, brutal sport. Every now and again a player goes over the edge, but if I was a coach I'd much rather have them playing on the edge and looking to intimidate opponents, rather than submitting and playing like nancies...like Bath this year, sob.

by ChequeredJersey Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:58 pm

beshocked wrote:Rodders I think unfortunately some people focus on the more unsavoury circumstances such as Schalk Burger's gouge and Bakkies Botha foul play which were evident in the Lions.

Of course these are only two players.

The 2005 Lion's tour to NZ was marred by Umaga and Mealamu's brutal treatment of O Driscoll.

Does this mean all Newzealanders are dirty?

No but these two players have certainly been rightly criticised.

People generally focus on the negatives/controversy not the positives.

Who notices when a ref has a good game? If he has a bad one on the other hand......

That's human nature though. A referee not making a mistake is the expectation so any mistakes that are made are noted but every correct decision is ignored by the mind because it is the norm. At the end not only is every bad game noted but every game the person referees seems to be refereed more badly than it was because we are evolved to focus on things that do not fit the normal pattern (in this case, bad decisions against the backdrop of good ones) and they are the ones we remember. The same applies in the NHS where every mistake made by a healthcare professional is reported in the media but minor miracles are expected to be normal and so the representation of the NHS is seen to be far worse than the entity itself. You can't avoid it unless you, as an individual, actively try to and removing it in general seems impossible.

by **rodders** Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:58 pm

Biltong you are preaching to the converted ( probably not the best choice of words there given the Ulster- Christian -Saffer thing... Whistle

) here pal.....the two smartest and best footballers in our team are probably, no definitely, Ruan Pienaar and Stefan Terblanche. The other guys are no dummies either Very Happy

.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:04 pm

We tend to remember the SA team of 2002 who came to Twickenham intent only on being physical

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2002/nov/25/rugbyunion.englandrugbyunionteam

and then the brutality of teams faced by the Lions in 1974 and 1980.

This all sets up a stereotype which then makes it easier for press and fans to villify a whole team when you get players who spend much of the time on the edge of legality (Butch James and James Small for instance).

Applying stereotypes is unfair - but they have usually been formed for a reason.

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:08 pm

Lt, for a number of reasons, we don't like to think back to that test match. Sad

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:09 pm

rodders wrote:Biltong you are preaching to the converted ( probably not the best choice of words there given the Ulster- Christian -Saffer thing... ) here pal.....the two smartest and best footballers in our team are probably, no definitely, Ruan Pienaar and Stefan Terblanche. The other guys are no dummies either .

Is he around? censored

by Knackeredknees Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:43 pm

Biltong the thugs label does get a bit tedious though as its not true, just as the saffacens/SAracens is not true. And to dispel spitting images's song I've met plenty of nice thugs, sorry South Africans Hug

by Bathite Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:49 pm

Umm...how is the Saffacens not true? Just as well that new lock you just signed isn't from SA, otherwise that would make you look a bit silly.

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:58 pm

Yeah, there's a few of us around.

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:11 pm

Bathite the name of the club is not Saffacens. It is Saracens.

You just signed another foreigner so it's hardly just us.

Is it really surprising Saracens sign South Africans? South Africa is an excellent rugby nation. Our management will undoubtedly have connections who can talent spot.

Why not use connections if you have them?

by Knackeredknees Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 pm

Is London Irish true? Don't see them copping much Poopie for not signing Irish players or playing in London.

So what if we have some South Africans, Bath have a few ozzys, kiwis and others oh and I believe a couple of South Africans as well?
So it ok for you to sign them but not us?

Maybe you should be called the west country allsorts or bath bassetts?

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:15 pm

Saracens have a clear link with Southern Africa. The owners are South African, many of the players have South African roots(*). The club shops biggest seller was that Saracens/SA scarf. Training camps are held in SA and matches will be.

I am sorry you get offended by (childish) comments but they are not unfounded.

(*) Players with Southern Africa links - even if some are now English:

Brits, Smit, Stevens, Du Plessis, Botha, Joubert, Burger, Melck, De Kock, Barritt

Add in Carstens and Hougaard who left this season, Hargreaves who arrives and Venter it is no wonder that people see a strong link with Southern Africa.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:18 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:Is London Irish true? Don't see them copping much Poopie for not signing Irish players or playing in London.?

Actually as I pointed out earlier this is not true. Less now, because they are losing, but LI have often been referred to as Reading irish, London Pacific and a combination Reading Pacific.

by **rodders** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Saracens have a clear link with Southern Africa.

Absolutely.... their coach is an Ulsterman...... Yahoo

.....

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:24 pm

LondonTiger I thought one of London Irish's disparaging names was the Not Nots.

I like London Irish though. Good fans and pretty nice stadium.

Who is Humphreys? Do you mean Hargreaves?

by ChequeredJersey Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:25 pm

There's nothing wring with having a strong link with SA (not that LT was implying there was). I live in Hammersmith and there is a large Saffer and Aussie population - probably some Kiwis too. If it is acceptable to form clubs called London Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc originally with the specific aim of catering for those populations in a vastly metropolitan city (ooh, triple tautology...) then why is a strong link with another population well represented in the same city with whom we share historical roots derided? If the SA player base were preventing English players from progressing maybe but as stated above the only difference in Saracens is that their foreign confident are mostly from one place- they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:25 pm

err..... Does he come from SA rodders, or are you guys now honourary South Africans? Whistle

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:26 pm

rodders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Saracens have a clear link with Southern Africa.

Absolutely.... their coach is an Ulsterman...... .....

Proves the point - Sarcens and ulster, basically both are just training grounds and retirement homes for SA. Run

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:27 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Don't you think there should be a small SA flag somewhere on the English jumper or shorts, other sponsors get their logo's on the jumper? Cool

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:30 pm

biltongbek wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Don't you think there should be a small SA flag somewhere on the English jumper or shorts, other sponsors get their logo's on the jumper?

Only if the Welsh have a cross of St George on their shorts Very Happy

by ChequeredJersey Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:33 pm

biltongbek wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Don't you think there should be a small SA flag somewhere on the English jumper or shorts, other sponsors get their logo's on the jumper?

I was referring to Saracens not South Africa, you cheeky git

by Knackeredknees Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Don't you think there should be a small SA flag somewhere on the English jumper or shorts, other sponsors get their logo's on the jumper?

Only if the Welsh have a cross of St George on their shorts

Can we get a like button for posts

by beshocked Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:35 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:There's nothing wring with having a strong link with SA (not that LT was implying there was). I live in Hammersmith and there is a large Saffer and Aussie population - probably some Kiwis too. If it is acceptable to form clubs called London Irish, Welsh, Scottish etc originally with the specific aim of catering for those populations in a vastly metropolitan city (ooh, triple tautology...) then why is a strong link with another population well represented in the same city with whom we share historical roots derided? If the SA player base was preventing English players from progressing maybe but as stated above the only difference in Saracens is that their foreign confident are mostly from one place- they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Well said chequeredjersey.

Obviously the best at nurturing English talent are currently Quins but Saracens are by no means the worst.

by **rodders** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:41 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
rodders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Saracens have a clear link with Southern Africa.

Absolutely.... their coach is an Ulsterman...... .....

Proves the point - Sarcens and ulster, basically both are just training grounds and retirement homes for SA.

Hey those geriatric Saffers gave you guys the run around in January anyways! Yahoo

...

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:49 pm

I remember when....

Wasps had a great side and Lawrence held the World Cup, Heinekin Cup and were champions of the league.
I wonder if that will ever happen again to an English Club Captain?

Or for that matter any NH team?

Looking back now with the pay cap in place it almost seems an impossible achievement with the small squad we had.

I guess luck with very few injuries helped!

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:50 pm

Run around?, more like run over. We were well and truly thumped.

Just shows of course, a geriatric Saffer (Terblanche) is better than a geriatric Irishman (murphy)

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:52 pm

I rmember when South Africans played at home, these days they are all over the place.

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:54 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
biltongbek wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:they have provided a large number of International standard English players. The SA jibes are frankly short-sighted, often hypocritical and narrow-minded about what London actually is

Don't you think there should be a small SA flag somewhere on the English jumper or shorts, other sponsors get their logo's on the jumper?

I was referring to Saracens not South Africa, you cheeky git

I'm being serious, not cheeky. Remember When.................. - Page 2 Pot10

O2 has a big logo on the chest, and what do you get for that, a little bit of money.

We put money into our players, develop them, and produce them stock standard after we have run them in for you. Remember When.................. - Page 2 Roflbl10

Remember When.................. - Page 2 Roflbl10

All you have to do is add a few extra's

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:58 pm

I remember when:

I had more hair on my head than on my back
When you could share a bath with 14 naked men without the tabloids getting excited.
Players weren't moving bill boards
The varsity match was a quasi england trial
the ball was put in the middle of the scrum
referees were respected
Scotland were good.
Bath were good

all of this I can remember yet I can never remember when Saracens were everyones second team Wink

by Bathite Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:59 pm

beshocked wrote:Bathite the name of the club is not Saffacens. It is Saracens.

You just signed another foreigner so it's hardly just us.

Is it really surprising Saracens sign South Africans? South Africa is an excellent rugby nation. Our management will undoubtedly have connections who can talent spot.

Why not use connections if you have them?

You bring it upon yourself if you get upset by being called Saffacens. You can't reap the benefits of the link and then not expect to get a bit of stick! I don't get upset about being called Barf!

Nope it isn't surprising and you should use those connections, but that other bloke was trying to deny there was a link! Which quite frankly is farcical.

Who is this foreigner we have signed then? Must have missed something there.

by Bathite Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:26 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:Is London Irish true? Don't see them copping much Poopie for not signing Irish players or playing in London.

So what if we have some South Africans, Bath have a few ozzys, kiwis and others oh and I believe a couple of South Africans as well?
So it ok for you to sign them but not us?

Maybe you should be called the west country allsorts or bath bassetts?

Yep could do, but you wouldn't see me getting upset about it! Certainly not starting a thread about it asking for sympathy!

For the record though, we have

1 Irishman
1 Welshman (hopefully James)
2 Scotsman
2 SA
1 All Black
1 Samoan

Sadly not enough from one specific country to get us a nickname, sorry to disappoint. the closest you'd get would be the Tigers retirement home!

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:32 pm

Bathite wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:Is London Irish true? Don't see them copping much Poopie for not signing Irish players or playing in London.

So what if we have some South Africans, Bath have a few ozzys, kiwis and others oh and I believe a couple of South Africans as well?
So it ok for you to sign them but not us?

Maybe you should be called the west country allsorts or bath bassetts?

Yep could do, but you wouldn't see me getting upset about it! Certainly not starting a thread about it asking for sympathy!

For the record though, we have

1 Irishman
1 Welshman (hopefully James)
2 Scotsman
2 SA
1 All Black
1 Samoan

Sadly not enough from one specific country to get us a nickname, sorry to disappoint. the closest you'd get would be the Tigers retirement home!

I tihnk as of now your nickname will be google, as a person needs to google where allyour players come from. thumbsup

by Bathite Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:36 pm

I thought we had more from abroad to be honest, I was surprised when I double checked. Keep getting confused with my Fantasy League Bath rugby side, that has loads more overseas options in it!

by Equo Troiano Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:03 pm

So, the sensible majority of us agree then - I didn't do anything wrong, there were knickers in a twist for no good reason and I've actually stimulated an interesting debate?

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:19 pm

Equo, there is sensible without enticement to induce argument and then there is , well, ...... the other way. So please make sure you remain in the correct side of things. thumbsup

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:20 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I remember when:

I had more hair on my head than on my back
When you could share a bath with 14 naked men without the tabloids getting excited.
Players weren't moving bill boards
The varsity match was a quasi england trial
the ball was put in the middle of the scrum
referees were respected
Scotland were good.
Bath were good

all of this I can remember yet I can never remember when Saracens were everyones second team

Cmon, LT, you are not that old! Wink

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:21 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I remember when:

I had more hair on my head than on my back
When you could share a bath with 14 naked men without the tabloids getting excited.
Players weren't moving bill boards
The varsity match was a quasi england trial
the ball was put in the middle of the scrum
referees were respected
Scotland were good.
Bath were good

all of this I can remember yet I can never remember when Saracens were everyones second team
Cmon, LT, you are not that old!

Damn, there goes my coffee.

by tigerleghorn Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Fritz van Heerden, Marco Wentzel, Joel Stransky, Glenn Gelderbloom.

Only Stransky was a big name, but all 4 were cracking lads.

What about Jacko v d W ?

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:41 pm

tigerleghorn wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Fritz van Heerden, Marco Wentzel, Joel Stransky, Glenn Gelderbloom.

Only Stransky was a big name, but all 4 were cracking lads.

What about Jacko v d W ?

I knew I had forgotten someone - possibly the best as well.

by tigerleghorn Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:56 pm

Wasn't Harry Roberts a Saffer too?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:08 am

Remember when people liked Northampton and Chris Ashton wasnt overated?

Remember when everyone hated Tigers?

With Saracens theres a lot to admire about what theyve done and what they are trying to achieve for rugby with a realistic plan, even if the spectacle they deliver is lacking. It was the fans who were first upset by the revolution, but its pretty soon forgiven when results and a future appear. The relative number and importance of the Saffa contingent is going down, the squad make up is much like an average Jeff one. Saracens are contributing to England in developing new players.

I really dont see whats to complain about.

by Equo Troiano Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:47 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Remember when people liked Northampton and Chris Ashton wasnt overated?

Remember when everyone hated Tigers?

With Saracens theres a lot to admire about what theyve done and what they are trying to achieve for rugby with a realistic plan, even if the spectacle they deliver is lacking. It was the fans who were first upset by the revolution, but its pretty soon forgiven when results and a future appear. The relative number and importance of the Saffa contingent is going down, the squad make up is much like an average Jeff one. Saracens are contributing to England in developing new players.

I really dont see whats to complain about.

Annoying drumming and stupid little hats?

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