Are there any good Irish props left ?

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:27 am

I mean this with the utmost respect. thumbsup

After watching Leinster's heroics yesterday, I could not help but notice that Healey and Ross were rubbish in the scrum. So I then started thinking, who are the good ones, and I honestly could not think of any. Lets be honest, until Leinster brought their foreign legion on their front row were being shunted all around the park. Shocked

My mind then wandered back to the six nations and the England game, now where as the Provence's are being very successful, until they get their IQ forwards up to standard then the national team is going to suffer, I know that there are a few props with potential, but Ireland need to find some props that fit the bill now and they still need to be producing more with potential, or as we are seeing the Provence's will remain to be the best, but Ireland will remain substandard at international level. guinness

by Rava Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:38 am

You obviously didn't watch Saturdays game then Wink

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:41 am

I thought Endinburg had the edge in the scrum on Saturday. thumbsup

by Rava Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Endinburg had the edge in the scrum on Saturday.

Then you definitely didn't see the game Rolling Eyes

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:49 am

Rava wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I thought Endinburg had the edge in the scrum on Saturday.

Then you definitely didn't see the game

I definitely did see the game.

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:56 am

Anyway, John Afoa is not Irish, and I take it you are going to take credit for Tom Court and Callum Black now are you ?

by caoimhincentre Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:01 am

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, John Afoa is not Irish, and I take it you are going to take credit for Tom Court and Callum Black now are you ?

Afoa wasnt playing. you mustnt have seen the game

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:01 am

You definitely didn't see the game! The props were Tom Court and Declan Fitzpatrick and Edinburgh were demolished at the scrum!

Thought Leinster dominated the scrum when VDW came on for Healy but yes there is a lack of quality tight heads in Ireland right now.

by maestegmafia Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:21 am

rodders wrote:

You definitely didn't see the game! The props were Tom Court and Declan Fitzpatrick and Edinburgh were demolished at the scrum!

Thought Leinster dominated the scrum when VDW came on for Healy but yes there is a lack of quality tight heads in Ireland right now.

There's a lack of tightheads everywhere, don't worry. Of the top ten nations most have one decent TH and a nipper learning the trade and little else. SA and France are possibly the only exception.

Wales have Craig Mitchell who is ok but not in Adam Jones league by a country mile. Scots have Low and Murray, you guys have Ross. If Dan Cole was injured England have no back up. NZ have two decent guys playing overseas and the Bazzers have Robinson and little else.

Tough boots to fill mate, Ireland are not alone.

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:27 am

rodders wrote:

You definitely didn't see the game! The props were Tom Court and Declan Fitzpatrick and Edinburgh were demolished at the scrum!

Thought Leinster dominated the scrum when VDW came on for Healy but yes there is a lack of quality tight heads in Ireland right now.

I now they were not playing Doh

I was just stating that these players are/were not IQ props.

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:38 am

I agree we have a problem with props, particularly at TH I just don't agree with some of your examples.

Leinsters scrum had the better of the second half, albeit with VDW playing much of it at LH and Ulster totally dominated Edinburgh over 80 min with four Irish props - Court and Fitzpatrick starting and Macklin and McAllistair coming of the bench.

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:44 am

rodders wrote:I agree we have a problem with props, particularly at TH I just don't agree with some of your examples.

Leinsters scrum had the better of the second half, albeit with VDW playing much of it at LH and Ulster totally dominated Edinburgh over 80 min with four Irish props - Court and Fitzpatrick starting and Macklin and McAllistair coming of the bench.

Yes, o.k then we will have to agree to disagree, although you cannot deny that Court is an Aussie, he even represented them in the shot putt didn't he ? Or have I dreamt this up somewhere. laughing

by SecretFly Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:49 am

Lord has been watching Irish teams and the Provinces...but what he hasn't been watching is the Irish threads and Irish newspapers.

He's telling us something we don't know????

The other point I'd like to mention is the 'foreign legion'. He means like the Welshman and the SH guys at Clermont? I take his point.

by SecretFly Mon 30 Apr 2012, 9:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:I agree we have a problem with props, particularly at TH I just don't agree with some of your examples.

Leinsters scrum had the better of the second half, albeit with VDW playing much of it at LH and Ulster totally dominated Edinburgh over 80 min with four Irish props - Court and Fitzpatrick starting and Macklin and McAllistair coming of the bench.

Yes, o.k then we will have to agree to disagree, although you cannot deny that Court is an Aussie, he even represented them in the shot putt didn't he ? Or have I dreamt this up somewhere.

Any foreigns on the Welsh team?

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:00 am

SecretFly wrote:Lord has been watching Irish teams and the Provinces...but what he hasn't been watching is the Irish threads and Irish newspapers.

He's telling us something we don't know????

The other point I'd like to mention is the 'foreign legion'. He means like the Welshman and the SH guys at Clermont? I take his point.

I am not talking about France though. thumbsup

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:01 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote:I agree we have a problem with props, particularly at TH I just don't agree with some of your examples.

Leinsters scrum had the better of the second half, albeit with VDW playing much of it at LH and Ulster totally dominated Edinburgh over 80 min with four Irish props - Court and Fitzpatrick starting and Macklin and McAllistair coming of the bench.

Yes, o.k then we will have to agree to disagree, although you cannot deny that Court is an Aussie, he even represented them in the shot putt didn't he ? Or have I dreamt this up somewhere.

Any foreigns on the Welsh team?

I take it you are talking about Faletau ? A person who has lived in Wales since he was about eight years old. If you want to go down this road then I would suggest that O'Gara and Heaslip are not Irish either. Smile

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:08 am

Don't worry LordDowlis we check our lads actually have an Irish granny before capping them..... Whistle

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:09 am

rodders wrote:Don't worry LordDowlis we check our lads actually have an Irish granny before capping them.....

Touche

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:12 am

by SecretFly Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:15 am

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Lord has been watching Irish teams and the Provinces...but what he hasn't been watching is the Irish threads and Irish newspapers.

He's telling us something we don't know????

The other point I'd like to mention is the 'foreign legion'. He means like the Welshman and the SH guys at Clermont? I take his point.

I am not talking about France though.

No but you're being a little liberal with the foreign Legion segment of your argument. It's almost suggesting it was Leinster 'foreign' crew wot done it. I think you know the creativity to drag ourselves past Clermont was all Irish...including the Prop who should almost play 13 instead Wink

But I'll concede I do think you did graciously mentioned all that in another post last night for which I reserve a Thank you for you.

by SecretFly Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:17 am

Actually Lord................. I think there are a few English born lads there at Wales...Faletau was a little too obvious for the snare Wink

by Cumbrian Mon 30 Apr 2012, 10:26 am

maestegmafia wrote:
rodders wrote:

You definitely didn't see the game! The props were Tom Court and Declan Fitzpatrick and Edinburgh were demolished at the scrum!

Thought Leinster dominated the scrum when VDW came on for Healy but yes there is a lack of quality tight heads in Ireland right now.
There's a lack of tightheads everywhere, don't worry. Of the top ten nations most have one decent TH and a nipper learning the trade and little else. SA and France are possibly the only exception.

Wales have Craig Mitchell who is ok but not in Adam Jones league by a country mile. Scots have Low and Murray, you guys have Ross. If Dan Cole was injured England have no back up. NZ have two decent guys playing overseas and the Bazzers have Robinson and little else.

Tough boots to fill mate, Ireland are not alone.

Very true, tighthead props appear to be an absolute premium in the northern hemisphere at the moment. From an English point of view, if Cole gets injured the back ups would be just about able to hold their own and no more. Mind you, Ireland seem to have suffered from this problem for longer than most with the reliance on John Hayes.

by LordDowlais Mon 30 Apr 2012, 11:09 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Lord has been watching Irish teams and the Provinces...but what he hasn't been watching is the Irish threads and Irish newspapers.

He's telling us something we don't know????

The other point I'd like to mention is the 'foreign legion'. He means like the Welshman and the SH guys at Clermont? I take his point.

I am not talking about France though.

No but you're being a little liberal with the foreign Legion segment of your argument. It's almost suggesting it was Leinster 'foreign' crew wot done it. I think you know the creativity to drag ourselves past Clermont was all Irish...including the Prop who should almost play 13 instead But I'll concede I do think you did graciously mentioned all that in another post last night for which I reserve a Thank you for you.

To be fair secretfly, I did not say that the entire team struggled until you brought your foreign legion on. I said your front row struggled. I just think that it is going to be a problem for Ireland if it is not sorted sooner rather than later. thumbsup

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Apr 2012, 11:17 am

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Endinburg had the edge in the scrum on Saturday.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 30 Apr 2012, 11:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:

I take it you are talking about Faletau ? A person who has lived in Wales since he was about eight years old. If you want to go down this road then I would suggest that O'Gara and Heaslip are not Irish either.

Or perhaps he means Cuthbert, the english player who qualifies by having a mother born in Wales.

by Submachine Mon 30 Apr 2012, 11:57 am

Aren't Charteris and North both English? Warburton Pandoran?

by geoff999rugby Mon 30 Apr 2012, 11:58 am

Ignoring the nonsense about respective nationality claims (which is an exercise in pointlessness than has been done to death) I will try and answer the question and point out something that is becoming increasingly apparant.

In last two games Court has got the better of Ross and Cross - both Internationals. Fitzpatrick has got the better of Healy and Jacobsen - both Intertnationals.
Macklin came on and continued doing a job on Jacobsen.

I reckon I can claim that Ulster has 3 of the best 5 Irish LH available in Court, McAllister and Black.
I also reckon we have (if I include an exile) 3 of the best 5 Irish TH available in Fitzpatrick, Macklin and Andress.

Ulster is key to Irish success in the front row for years to come.

For the absence of any doubt my other LH are Healy and Wilkinson
My other TH are Ross (who I reckon is, worryingly, on the skids) and Hagan

I simply dont rate Buckley, Archer or Longhny (sp).

by Cumbrian Mon 30 Apr 2012, 12:10 pm

What about the Irish qualified Michael Bent who Leinster are bringing in, have any of you kept tabs on him?

by geoff999rugby Mon 30 Apr 2012, 1:24 pm

Have to see him play but the bottom line is that he is a TH and Leinster already have two Irish TH - so how much game time will he get.

Unless there are concerns over Ross or Hagan of course.

Time will tell

by formerly known as Sam Mon 30 Apr 2012, 1:48 pm

If Dan Cole was injured England have no back up

Other than Paul Doran-Jones who is just as strong in the scrum and arguably better in the tight exchanges but not as good in the loose. Harden at Gloucester is developing well and Henry Thomas at Sale is a massive talent for a prop his age. It's 7s England are struggling to bring through.

Thought Leinster dominated the scrum when VDW came on for Healy but yes there is a lack of quality tight heads in Ireland right now.

They certainly had a good 20 mins after he first came on but at the end of the game they were in serious trouble again. I don't think the Clermont subs helped their scrum performance either as they subbed a prop at the same time as VDW came on for Leinster.

Not sure if the props at Ulster are good or whether the monster second row is just a damn good engine room. Probably a bit of the first and a lot of the second.

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 1:58 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
They certainly had a good 20 mins after he first came on but at the end of the game they were in serious trouble again. I don't think the Clermont subs helped their scrum performance either as they subbed a prop at the same time as VDW came on for Leinster.

Not sure if the props at Ulster are good or whether the monster second row is just a damn good engine room. Probably a bit of the first and a lot of the second.

True on Leinster but I don't think Ross is the fittest guy around so that may explain the capitulation at the end.

In terms of Ulster, our second row unit isn't that big, indeed Muller isn't the most physical guy around, so I'd say our scrum is down to the props mainly.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 30 Apr 2012, 2:14 pm

Louis Deacon isn't the most physical guy but the difference he makes to the Tigers scrum is noticeable. As an opposition fan I rate that Ulster second row very highly and I wouldn't underestimate what they add to Ulster at the scrum.

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 2:19 pm

True sam but we had the same second rows last year but our scrum wasn't anywhere near as strong.

I'm not underestimating them but you can't remove the credit from our props- and not just Afoa, who's been awesome, but the guys who have stepped in, most notably Fitzpatrick.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 30 Apr 2012, 2:25 pm

That Fitzpatrick chap can scrummage.

I think Ireland's TOP priority is to get him fit enough to play test rugby. I don't care if he offers little in the loose. Neither does Ross, and he's now our most crucial player.

Ulster must give Fitzpatrick lots of game time next year and do lots of work on his fitness. If he can be turned into a test level prop over the next year or two then Afoa must be let go, or at least benched to let Fitzpatrick develop and gain experience.

We're just to dangerously short at tighthead if we lose Ross, like England kindly reminded us recently. The situation has to be rectified pronto.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 30 Apr 2012, 2:34 pm

I'm not underestimating them but you can't remove the credit from our props- and not just Afoa, who's been awesome, but the guys who have stepped in, most notably Fitzpatrick.

No I wasn't suggesting the props were not doing their part. The scrum has came on this season after the Saints game last year.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 30 Apr 2012, 2:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I thought Endinburg had the edge in the scrum on Saturday.

Ulster scored 12 points of penalties directly from the scrum, Edinburgh scrum was crushed.

by geoff999rugby Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:58 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'm not underestimating them but you can't remove the credit from our props- and not just Afoa, who's been awesome, but the guys who have stepped in, most notably Fitzpatrick.

No I wasn't suggesting the props were not doing their part. The scrum has came on this season after the Saints game last year.

Neither Court or Botha were fully fit against Saints last year and it showed.

With regard to Afoa I am pretty certain the plan, in two years time when his contract runs out, is to have Fitzpatrick and Macklin as our main stay with possibly Cronin returning. Under the new rules I cant see us having a NIQ TH.

by The Great Aukster Tue 01 May 2012, 10:01 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ulster must give Fitzpatrick lots of game time next year and do lots of work on his fitness. If he can be turned into a test level prop over the next year or two then Afoa must be let go, or at least benched to let Fitzpatrick develop and gain experience.

Ulster wanted to play Fitzpatrick against Connacht, but the IRFU insisted Court start at TH - obviously Dublin don't rate Declan even though Ulster do.

Deccie offers a lot more than just scrummaging. He is struggling for match fitness at the moment but could anyone see Ross being first to a box kick chase as Fitzpatrick was against Edinburgh? He is not lightning quick in the loose, but that doesn't mean he doesn't put himself about there either in a John Hayes kind of way.

by Submachine Tue 01 May 2012, 10:14 am

Didn't see the game on Saturday, had to record it. Only got to watch 1st half last night and I was mightily impressed by Fitzpatrick. He is what 27/28? Destroyed Edinburgh Scrum for Ulsters try and was very effective in the loose. Had one big carry but got turned over, more due to lack of support than anything else.
Realy hope he can stay injury free and kick on from here. He has 3 HC appearances this season and will probably get some game time in the final. That should be enough to book his ticket to NZ.

by The Great Aukster Tue 01 May 2012, 10:33 am

I could see Adam Macklin being on the bench for the final. He did fine against Healy at Ravenhill and offers a lot more defensive mobility late on in the game.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 01 May 2012, 10:59 am

If Kidney still insists on Court as his backup Tighthead in NZ, I will have lost all hope for irish rugby. He is now FOURTH choice for Ulster there. At the same time, I would not be surprised in the slightest. Fitzpatrick has to go now and get a shot.

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 11:03 am

Are there any good Irish props left?

No - but there are a few bad ones who look promising.

Just giving the punters what they want to hear Wink

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 11:25 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If Kidney still insists on Court as his backup Tighthead in NZ, I will have lost all hope for irish rugby. He is now FOURTH choice for Ulster there. At the same time, I would not be surprised in the slightest. Fitzpatrick has to go now and get a shot.

Its a joke isn't it.

Ulster 4th choice TH and 3rd choice IQ TH is Ireland's 2nd choice TH.

Is Kidney really that stupid Headscratch

by whocares Tue 01 May 2012, 11:33 am

might make you feel better about it but France is considering to take Daniel Kotze (2nd choice south african TH at clermont) to their summer tour in Argentina (he would qualify this summer as he has been 3 years in France) Rolling Eyes

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 11:37 am

"Is Kidney really that stupid?"

He, or someone in the Irish camp, is certainly that stubborn.

I keep hoping that there is some method to the madness and that there are real plans for World Domination, and a secret Nuclear Rocket complex under the McGillyCuddy Reeks, in the latter half of this decade - but I can't see any joined up thinking in how best to utilise players who can play to have them performing like chickens that can squawk instead.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 01 May 2012, 11:39 am

Is Kidney really that stupid

It makes you wonder what coaches see in training, England keep selecting Matt Stevens despite him taking a regular pasting in the AP and HEC come scrummaging time.

by **profitius** Thu 18 Oct 2012, 2:22 pm

On the loosehead side Denis Buckley and David Kilcoyne are showing good potential.

Kilcoyne was up against French international Dulcancon at the weekend and Munster were pushing the Racing Metro pack over the line.

Denis Buckley has overtaken Wilkinson in Connaht. He is a small (in relative terms, more like short) prop like Domingo and is looking good in the loose.

The tighthead side of things is different. Declan Fitzpatrick showed he is a good scrummager but theres nobody else showing up at the moment. Fitzpatrick is always injured too. In Munster, Stephen Archer doesn't look up to it at all while potentially better props (Alan Cotter and John Ryan) are not getting any games. Hopefully they'll give Botha a chance to recharge the batteries and play more Irish tightheads.

Leinsters Jamie Hagan looks like a solid scrummager but hasn't shown international potential yet. Hes another who could do with a run of games because he hasn't played much since he went to Leinster. Martin Moore could be another contender but like Hagan, he needs to play more. Theres always Tadhg Furlong who is the best scrummaging prospect in Ireland for many years but he is still only 19.

by **profitius** Fri 26 Oct 2012, 12:04 pm

Michael Bent is Irish qualified. Any New Zealander see him play? I saw him for Taranaki at the weekend against Canterbury (Wyatt Crockett) and he won a few penalties.

by **profitius** Thu 10 Oct 2013, 10:43 am

Saw this story today. A good news story regarding props.

Munster scrum strengthened by home-grown props

Rob Penney stresses the days of Munster being considered mere survivors come scrum time are over

........

Leinster’s Martin Moore waded into the derby at Thomond Park last weekend for Mike Ross, following Munster’s James Cronin who had just planted the established Ireland tighthead with a ferocious tackle. Big, young Irish bred props.

Non starters
Neither Moore nor Cronin will start this weekend at Liberty Stadium or Murrayfield but their progression is proof the IRFU plan to significantly reduce the number of foreign imports clogging up the frontrow pathway. BJ Botha and John Afoa are the last two on Irish provincial books as Nathan White will be assimilated via residency next year.
“With Cian Healy and Dave Kilcoyne you got two really classy looseheads,” said Munster coach Rob Penney of Cronin’s emergence in the wake of Marcus Horan’s retirement. “Jimmy is making great progress. He is a mobile, athletic young man with a massive motor and a great deal of desire.
“The other two have played international rugby already and James is heading that way. The challenge for him is to be consistent. Keep banging on the door.”

Dominance
It’s accepted in the Munster camp they dominated the Leinster scrum during their 19-15 victory. Granted, Moore and Jack McGrath replaced the incumbent Irish duo of Healy and Ross for the last quarter but Penney was keen to stress the days of Munster being considered mere survivors come scrum time are over. It is a weapon and they intend to use it.
“The scrum is not one component that makes it work, it is a combination of all eight working together,” he said. “Jeez, when you look at the scrum and what the boys were able to do; I just thought they stuck to their task and finished well over the top of Leinster.
“When you slow the clips there is a bit of murmurings up north that they were disappointed the way it was refereed but, goodness, it would be great to sit down with Feeky (Greg Feek) and Matt (O’Connor) to discuss the scrums because I’ve got an entirely different image in my mind. I thought we were really good . . .and we had them under pressure and we got the benefit of that.”

......

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/munster-scrum-strengthened-by-home-grown-props-1.1555394

by geoff998rugby Thu 10 Oct 2013, 11:02 am

I have to say the prop situation is starting to look up

At Munster Cronin looks handy + Kilcoyne
The two young lads at Leinster come well recommended - Moore and Furlong
At Ulster - Lutton is progressing well, McCall looks a real find and McAllister is due back from injury

To be honest 2nd row looks more of a worry than the front row - only Henderson coming through the ranks who looks up to muster

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