Are there any good Irish props left ?

First topic message reminder :

I mean this with the utmost respect. After watching Leinster's heroics yesterday, I could not help but notice that Healey and Ross were rubbish in the scrum. So I then started thinking, who are the good ones, and I honestly could not think of any. Lets be honest, until Leinster brought their foreign legion on their front row were being shunted all around the park. My mind then wandered back to the six nations and the England game, now where as the Provence's are being very successful, until they get their IQ forwards up to standard then the national team is going to suffer, I know that there are a few props with potential, but Ireland need to find some props that fit the bill now and they still need to be producing more with potential, or as we are seeing the Provence's will remain to be the best, but Ireland will remain substandard at international level.

Christ is this one still going ? I put this one on here over half a year ago. Oh well, you cannot put a good thread down.

We never forget! Just kidding. Nothing wrong with what you said LD.


There were a few other threads about Irish props that I tried to find. I've heard all kinds of strange theories in the last few years about the lack of quality props in Ireland. In reality its an area that was neglected up until a few years ago and thats probably why we're seeing a bunch of them appearing at the same time.


Tighthead is still a problem but there are signs of promise there.

Yeah, I've noticed a few springing up this season as well. 

In all fairness, What countries actually have good dept at TH.

Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.

There are none to the right either.

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

Exactly thank you for proving my point, that Everyone is having problems producing THs. We have a few THs coming through but time will tell if they are good enough or not.

Moore doesn't seem to have adjusted to the new scrum laws very well.

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

What you are doing here is just naming tightheads for each country, without considering quality, and masquerading it as depth. I could do the same for Ireland. We have Stephen Archer, John Ryan, Declan Fitzpatrick, Ricky Lutton, Martin Moore, Michael Bent..

See what I mean? For a lot of the options you and I have mentioned, there is a huge drop in quality.

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

As I said earlier, Ireland have only concentrated on scrummaging a few years ago. In the last year we've seen a bunch of props come through but mostly looseheads. Tightheads generally take longer to mature. For example Mike Ross only came back to Ireland in his late 20s and was in Leinsters reserves for a year after that. Martin Moore hasn't started many games for Leinster. You can't judge him or any prop on one or two games because theres all kinds of possibilities as to why a scrum dominates and not all are because of the tighthead. In other games he was solid. Besides Moore and Ross theres Fitzpatrick who is a good scrummager, Lutton, Archer and John Ryan. Bent might even come good yet.  


I suppose we'll be wiser in a few months. Btw, I'm sure Samson Lee is Irish qualified!  


On the loosehead side theres Jack McGrath (who gave Adam Jones a good battle), James Cronin, McAllister, Black in Ulster, Buckley in Connacht.

Hagan getting a start for LI in the Amlin tonight I think

profitius wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

As I said earlier, Ireland have only concentrated on scrummaging a few years ago. In the last year we've seen a bunch of props come through but mostly looseheads. Tightheads generally take longer to mature. For example Mike Ross only came back to Ireland in his late 20s and was in Leinsters reserves for a year after that. Martin Moore hasn't started many games for Leinster. You can't judge him or any prop on one or two games because theres all kinds of possibilities as to why a scrum dominates and not all are because of the tighthead. In other games he was solid. Besides Moore and Ross theres Fitzpatrick who is a good scrummager, Lutton, Archer and John Ryan. Bent might even come good yet.  


I suppose we'll be wiser in a few months. Btw, I'm sure Samson Lee is Irish qualified!  


On the loosehead side theres Jack McGrath (who gave Adam Jones a good battle), James Cronin, McAllister, Black in Ulster, Buckley in Connacht.

Why though? It's such an important part of the game, I don't understand that at all.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

What you are doing here is just naming tightheads for each country, without considering quality, and masquerading it as depth.  I could do the same for Ireland.  We have Stephen Archer, John Ryan, Declan Fitzpatrick, Ricky Lutton, Martin Moore, Michael Bent..

See what I mean?  For a lot of the options you and I have mentioned, there is a huge drop in quality.

What are you on about all i did was reply to Leinster4Ever. He asked do any countries have that much strength in depth and really none do We all have at least one tight head who is good enough at international level (except Ireland).
I'm not just naming tight heads because I could have said loads of other people like aaron jarvis, nicky thomas, scott anndrewss, paul doran jones, henry thomas, Murry low but i didn't did I.All i was saying is who was leading in there countries pecking order.
All i was doing really is naming the top players in each positions of each country. I know the likes of Samson Lee and Mitchell re miles of Adam at the moment. Same with Geoff Cross.
I know we don't have that much depth at tighthead apart form Adam (but then again no other tight head comes close to him). All i did was say who was behind who in the pecking order.

Cumbrian wrote:

profitius wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Martin Moore?
Is this the one who started against the Scarlets. If so, no offence to the kid or anything but he hard a hard day.
Our (Wales') young tight head Samson Lee along with Phil John destroyed the Leinster scrum. Moore had a hard time.
Kilcoyne is a good promising prop but he is a lot like Cian Healey, great in the loose, not the best at scrum time.
You have a waist of space in Mike Ross, Hopeless around the pitch and stable at best in the scrum.
England have descent depth at tight head with David Wilson who should be there starting tight head and Dan Cole.
Then we have the main man in Adam and cover with Mitchell and Samson
Scotland even have Murray, Welsh and Cross
Ireland have Ross :erm:and ????????????????
Good for you if you do have talent coming through because really that the only part of the game the Irish need to go forward to big success.  

As I said earlier, Ireland have only concentrated on scrummaging a few years ago. In the last year we've seen a bunch of props come through but mostly looseheads. Tightheads generally take longer to mature. For example Mike Ross only came back to Ireland in his late 20s and was in Leinsters reserves for a year after that. Martin Moore hasn't started many games for Leinster. You can't judge him or any prop on one or two games because theres all kinds of possibilities as to why a scrum dominates and not all are because of the tighthead. In other games he was solid. Besides Moore and Ross theres Fitzpatrick who is a good scrummager, Lutton, Archer and John Ryan. Bent might even come good yet.  


I suppose we'll be wiser in a few months. Btw, I'm sure Samson Lee is Irish qualified!  


On the loosehead side theres Jack McGrath (who gave Adam Jones a good battle), James Cronin, McAllister, Black in Ulster, Buckley in Connacht.

Why though?  It's such an important part of the game,  I don't understand that at all.

Samson has already played for Wales U'20's. Nice try though  

The neglect of developing in props in the 00's was a disgrace at all levels.

Ireland had Hayes and Horan with Simon Best on the bench and they just kept on going so they didn't bother working for the day when they wouldn't be there.
Best had heart problems, Horan was seriously ill and oh Poopie Hayes is over 35 ! - panic
Healy was a get out of jail card, Ross had to be recovered from the reject pile and Court was shipped over from Aussie thanks to a granny.

Same in the Provinces - Ulster has Justin Fitzpatrick and Simon Best with Bryan Young on the bench.
Best had the heart issue, Fitzpatrick got old and Young went into series decline.
So it was Court, a foreign TH (Botha) and use Declan Fitzpatrick as cover

Thankfully all have woken up and at both Provincial and National level there appear to be a number of prospects coming through which should me we are not as exposed again. Personally after this year I would not allow any Province to have a NIQ prop on the books

Moore was pretty good tonight. He is fairly mobile for a guy his size.

Some good and some bad from Moore tonight- Ospreys have an excellent scrum so it's a great learning experience. He generally did pretty well, I agree.

Given the circumstances I think Moore did brilliantly, the plan was not for him to come on and play 70 minutes against that Ospreys pack but he fronted up and dealt with it.

Moore did very well today. Hes had a good start to the season overall. McGrath did well when he came on too.


For Munster Archer and Kilcoyne were solid today. Cronin is outperforming Kilcoyne so far this season. If Schmidt is picking on form then he should be ahead of Kilcoyne although Kilcoyne hasn't been bad, just average.