Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland

This is the fat mans track. I haven't watched much super 15 this year (Kids sports and trips away). I'm interested to know who you think will be selcted based on supe 15 form.

Here's the team from the WC final, with some comments:

15 Israel Dagg - Seems to be coming into form, huge depth at 15.
14 Cory Jane
13 Conrad Smith - Should be in if the play a big inside center. What happens if carter starts at 12.
12 Ma'a Nonu - questionmarks about form, SBW and may be Carter looming on the horison
11 Richard Kahui _ Playing centre I think
10 Aaron Cruden - there because Carter was injured. I'm not sure he'll make the squad
9 Piri Weepu - Out of form (I'm guessing he was only in the starting line up as a kicker)
1 Tony Woodcock - Injured but should be right
2 Keven Mealamu - Out of form, so who are the hookers.
3 Owen Franks - In I'm guessing
4 Brad Thorn - Gone into semi retirement, wont be back .
5 Sam Whitelock - (probably a certainy)
6 Jerome Kaino - gone
7 Richie McCaw (c) - Just returning from injury - who's the back up
8 Kieran Read - (He's in)
Replacements
16 Andrew Hore
17 Ben Franks
18 Ali Williams - Out of form
19 Adam Thomson
20 Andy Ellis
21 Stephen Donald Gone to Overseas
22 Sonny Bill Williams

Like I said I haven't watched much, so I may be off the mark a bit.

Why would Smith only start if a big 12 starts?

The team that plays on June 9 will look nothing like the WC final team.Bearing in ind there is along time to go before names start being named,ut they must be looking at Hika Elliot,Wyatt CrockettAaron Smith,Either of the Waikato locks,and the Wellington fullback.

Any chance Read could move back to 6 with Kaino gone, and Nasi Manu could start at 8?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why would Smith only start if a big 12 starts?

He might. But traditionally we use a distributer and a big hard charging man. It's about balance to the backline and having someone who can take the ball into contact when need be. If we play 2 five eigths, we'll need someone. I'm a smith fan, but I can't see a backline of say Taylor, Carter, Smith functioning well in some situations. Bear in mind I'm not a coach it's just my thoughts.

aucklandlaurie wrote: The team that plays on June 9 will look nothing like the WC final team.Bearing in ind there is along time to go before names start being named,ut they must be looking at Hika Elliot,Wyatt CrockettAaron Smith,Either of the Waikato locks,and the Wellington fullback.

Agreed. I'm hoping you can give me an outline. I've bee limited to highlightsa and the odd game.

I'm also a fan of having a distributor (at 12 usually) and a hard running strike man (at 13), but Smith is just too good a player to leave out IMO. I think he would do fine outside someone like Carter. I think Nonu/SBW will start at 12 anyway.

Could fruen be accommodated? There's been a heap of hype today about his game last night. I like watching fruen, but the people that know way more than me say he needs work on his game. He's a game breakers ala nonu, he'd scare a few teams.

Rory
I would very much doubt that they would move Reid,even if they had to make way for Vito.Thompson would play 6 for Kaino.Manu hasnt got a big enough engine for what these guys want out of AB no 8.

From what I saw of Ireland in the 6 nations I cant see why you would want to play Carter at second five.

Ebop
The thing is you have to do abit more then scare them,I cant see them not playing Conrad Smith,but if he got injured at the moment,his replacement would be Kahui.
For all the talk on Fruen,Hes no where near the efficient defender that Smith is let alone organise those around him.

Cruden is on fire with the Chiefs, though odds are Carter will get the nod at 10.

My picks
1. Woodcock/Crockett
2. Hore
3. O. Franks
4. Hoeata?
5. Whitelock
6. Thompson
7. McCaw
8. Reid
9. A. Smith/Kerr-Barlow/Perenara
10. Carter
11. Kahui
12. SBW
13. C. Smith
14. Jane
15. Dagg (coing back into form)

16. Elliot
17. B. Franks
18. Retallick
19. Messam/Todd/Latimer/Vito?
20. Ellis (experience off the bench)
21. Cruden
23. Taylor

Kiwi
Being 6 weeks out that is probably somethinglike what they would be looking at,Cowan has played well over the past few weeks,Todd would not be in an opening test,I dont know what it is with Hoeata but hes not the player he was last year.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rory
I would very much doubt that they would move Reid,even if they had to make way for Vito.Thompson would play 6 for Kaino.Manu hasnt got a big enough engine for what these guys want out of AB no 8.

From what I saw of Ireland in the 6 nations I cant see why you would want to play Carter at second five.

I didn't say I would want to see Carter at 12, the question was asked if Smith would need to play alongside a big 12, and what would happen if he was outside Carter, and I said I think he would be fine. Anyway, what has that got to do with Ireland in the 6 nations? Not sure what point you are making.

As for Reid, he is obviously a nailed on starter no matter where he plays, and he is going to replace McCaw as captain very soon I think. Also, what do you mean when you say Manu hasn't got a big enough engine? His work rate isn't good enough?

aucklandlaurie wrote: Kiwi
Being 6 weeks out that is probably somethinglike what they would be looking at,Cowan has played well over the past few weeks,Todd would not be in an opening test,I dont know what it is with Hoeata but hes not the player he was last year.

I'm really baffled by the "who's replacing Thorn" as enforcer lock question. The Crusader's scrum is definitely a bit de-powered this season without him pushing the tighthead.

What do you mean when you say kaino is gone?

Kaino's in Japan isn't he so he won't be selected?

rodders wrote:Kaino's in Japan isn't he so he won't be selected?

He's injured and out for the season.

OK I'm confused I thought he'd gone to Japan and wasn't available for selection?

rodders wrote:OK I'm confused I thought he'd gone to Japan and wasn't available for selection?

The Japanese season doesn't start for a few months yet (Japan is in the NH after all, their season runs September-February) so he was going to play all of SXV and be available for the June Internationals but miss the 4N before joining Toyota Verblitz. But then he got injured.

Carter's groin should hopefully have recovered enough so that he can take the kicks. It's five weeks from now and if Taylor's doing it now he can take it easy. What I'm worried about is Weepu playing just so he can take the kicks. Smith should play 9 he's the best passer in NZ (see what passing from the deck does) and this time may be needed if the pack isn't as dominant. It won't be as physical without Thorn and Kaino. Hoeata and Thomson seem the logical replacements but I don't rate Thomson's physicality and Hoeata may still be a bit loose.

Kahui straight in for Smith should injury occur. No questions asked. SBW could usurp Nonu if his workrate continues to be high. Todd to train as an out and out 7 replacement if McCaw's not ready for tests.

Nonu was in a poor performing franchise last year. I still think he'll make it. Cowan is off to Gloucester so that makes him out of the running for me. The locking partner of Whitelock seems up in the air. I would bring in a Chiefs lock at this stage. Craig Clarke is 2m and would be a nuisance in the lineouts but he is on the rangy side and Retallick is a bigger unit. I'd bring in Hoeata but have him as cover for lock and blindside and even replace Thomson to have a look at him at this level. I'd have Todd covering the rest. Then in the front row have Eliot at least as a reserve and Crockett deserves a place on the reserves as well. Where to put Kahui and SBW who have combinations now together (Smith and Nonu no longer play alongside together but have the benefit of many years experience playing together for the Hurricanes and ABs). Taylor looks to be giving Dagg a run for his money for selection and Cruden is a nice backup to Carter. Halfback is the key and it's time for change. Bring in a newbie and put him next to Carter. Smith or TJ Perenara for me. You might be tempted to put Ellis in reserves just to have someone experienced. That leaves the contentious left wing spot open.

So my team would look like:

Woodcock, Hore, O Franks
Retallick Whitelock
Thomson McCaw Read
Smith Carter
Nonu Smith
Jane Kahui Dagg

Reserves:
Crockett, Eliot, Hoeata, Todd, Ellis, Cruden, SBW or Gear

Taylor is unlucky not to make it. Fruean is still a liability on defence. He missed the tackle last week for NSW´s first try. He is a beast on attack but sometimes he makes a break and then doesn't take the right option. He was lucky Guilford for example snaffled his wild pass inside. He needs to work on his defensive game still and be composed and make the right decisions like Smith always does. I am in no doubt though that he will get his chance soon. Maybe at the end of the year would be a good time.



So my team would look like

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Nonu was in a poor performing franchise last year. I still think he'll make it. Cowan is off to Gloucester so that makes him out of the running for me. The locking partner of Whitelock seems up in the air. I would bring in a Chiefs lock at this stage. Craig Clarke is 2m and would be a nuisance in the lineouts but he is on the rangy side and Retallick is a bigger unit. I'd bring in Hoeata but have him as cover for lock and blindside and even replace Thomson to have a look at him at this level. I'd have Todd covering the rest. Then in the front row have Eliot at least as a reserve and Crockett deserves a place on the reserves as well. Where to put Kahui and SBW who have combinations now together (Smith and Nonu no longer play alongside together but have the benefit of many years experience playing together for the Hurricanes and ABs). Taylor looks to be giving Dagg a run for his money for selection and Cruden is a nice backup to Carter. Halfback is the key and it's time for change. Bring in a newbie and put him next to Carter. Smith or TJ Perenara for me. You might be tempted to put Ellis in reserves just to have someone experienced. That leaves the contentious left wing spot open.

So my team would look like:

Woodcock, Hore, O Franks
Retallick Whitelock
Thomson McCaw Read
Smith Carter
Nonu Smith
Jane Kahui Dagg

Reserves:
Crockett, Eliot, Hoeata, Todd, Ellis, Cruden, SBW or Gear

Taylor is unlucky not to make it. Fruean is still a liability on defence. He missed the tackle last week for NSW´s first try. He is a beast on attack but sometimes he makes a break and then doesn't take the right option. He was lucky Guilford for example snaffled his wild pass inside. He needs to work on his defensive game still and be composed and make the right decisions like Smith always does. I am in no doubt though that he will get his chance soon. Maybe at the end of the year would be a good time.

That's not a bad side Kia, my only quibble would be Crocket - neither he nor Woodcock cover tight-head

Hmm.. with Thomson, McCaw and Read, the All Blacks are going to have a pretty lightweight back row, no? None of them are very big guys.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Cruden is on fire with the Chiefs, though odds are Carter will get the nod at 10.

My picks
1. Woodcock/Crockett
2. Hore
3. O. Franks
4. Hoeata?
5. Whitelock
6. Thompson
7. McCaw
8. Reid
9. A. Smith/Kerr-Barlow/Perenara
10. Carter
11. Kahui
12. SBW
13. C. Smith
14. Jane
15. Dagg (coing back into form)

16. Elliot
17. B. Franks
18. Retallick
19. Messam/Todd/Latimer/Vito?
20. Ellis (experience off the bench)
21. Cruden
23. Taylor

That's a pretty good looking team.

Like the look of Kerr Barlow, he's got some spunk and can hold his own when taking the ball up. I like Retallick to, is it worth giving him a shot given the experience around him? I'd also probably like to 'not' see Thompson in the starting line up, Messam or Vito? None of them will fully replace Kaino, yet. There's probably a hope Vito will make the step up but there's some good young talent coming through (cane)

You guys seem to have it sorted. I think Smith will be the only genuine newbie. With SBW in really good form he or a late run from nonu will definitely tie up that spot.

Taylor is way too new to throw into the front line. No one had heard of him a month ago.

No ones mentioned him but I still think Guilford will be in there on bemch st least. Hes still firing from the back picking those gaps regularly. Hes awkward but a genuine eye for a break.

Cruden is on fire and he and carter have 10 sewn up. Lock is the tough one. Personally I think Eaton might get another look. He looks a different player this year under hammet. Its up for grabs as well. The rest is pretty predictable i agree. No way smith wont be centre. Hes reproved himself already and is the form centre.

Mealamu and Faumuina could make a late bid. Mealamus fresh since injury and will be firing for a useless blues side.

Guildford's going ok. He's a tracker like Ashton for England and his effectiveness depends on workrate. I like Kahui but to be honest I'd rather have him at 13 or on the bench and someone with real X factor play 11. Having said that Gear and Guildford aren't quite that freakish and Ranger's really erratic.

Freuan for the EOYT-only if injuries permit. We have two world class players for each midfield position. Taylor-no way. Jane to back up Dagg and 14 otherwise. Ben Smith would get in ahead of Taylor too.

My halves are Smith and Ellis. Please DC be fit to kick so the dump truck doesn't have to play. Hell get Dagg to kick. Haven't paid too much attention to Eaton. Thomson's best at 6 and noone's really sticking their hand up. Vito on the bench for mine. We need more mongrel though. Seriously.

1 is a straight choice-Woodcock or Crockett. Neither should be on the bench as Ben Franks plays both. Was glad Henry took him instead of Afoa for last year's big games. Woodcock for me. Mealamu/Hore either/or too.

Yeah its a pity we've a gluttony in some positions and still lock, openside if McCaw falls are our bugbears. I say Eaton because others have taken their arms down- Thorne, Ali etc and he's looked good at lineout and hits the breakdowns/ hits the ball up. I think the previous Canes environment just doesnt suit him and he should have moved to the Saders when he had the chance. (inside knowledge- huge pay cut)

Mealamu if hes fit and better than Hore, Reade and McCaw are the leaders up front with Carter and Smith in the backs so they'll have to keep them all in with Thorne and Kaino out. Mealamu possibly becomes the (albeit small) enforcer so agree we're 'short' there, hence the need to retain the experience. SBW or Nonu are the backline 'enforcers' (not a fan of the concept but agree its a must have) so one must play.

Thats why Ellis might be picked ahead of the newbies initially as well. We'd all like to see new talent but reality is Hansen has to retain a 100 year old legacy so anyone new will need to be streets ahead of those who have been there, and none are.

The Taylor I was talking about was Tom (too many of us Taylors!) as someone mentioned a DC, Taylor, Smith setup...too risky but a good future and kicking option as it wrecked the Stormers.

Rory

What I mean by Manu not having a big enough engine,is that although he carries the ball well and can penetrate the line, he doesnt contribute actively enough in the defensive line in coast to coast defense.a team (forwards) like Ireland will isolate him all day and win holding on penalties.On the other hand Vito,( you could insert Messem ) is far more industrious in defense yet their pace and ability to link are not in question.

Neither did I say that I wanted to see Carter at 12, however from what I saw in ireland in the 6 nations,I see it as vital that the All Black second five has to be able to not only draw thae Irish mid field,but also to stand them up,create the hole behind them,thus giving the 1st five more options.Sonny Bill all the way.perhaps I misread your post.

Yes agree, think we've all settled on it, one or two variations- front rows sorted, need a second lock, three of Read, McCaw, Thompson and Vito for the back row, Ellis or Smith at 9, Carter or Cruden at 10, SBW or an outside chance Nonu, Smith a certainty, Dagg, Jane, Kahui or perhaps Gear at the back with Ben Smith as cover.

Bet it wont be far of that lot even this far out.

Taylorman

True,and the first thing Hansen will be trying to do when he gets these guys into camp is to revive the culture, and if possible any momentum from last year.

Having watched a lot of the super xv so far the form starting line up for the all blacks i think should be something like this. I doubt it will be but i would say these are the guys in form.

15 andre taylor( tons of pace, great step and angles, scoring tries and solid in D )
14Leila Masaga ( come into real good form and looks electric)
13 Robbie Fruen ( pace and power and is getting better each game)
12 Sonny Bill Williams ( playing well and looks like he is enjoying his rugby)
11 Hosea Gear ( working hard and looks a threat everytime he has the ball)
10 Aaron Cruden ( playing great rugby, linking well with sbw)
9 Aaron Smith (quick pass and a handful with his sniping runs)

8 kieran reid ( coming into form and looks powerful and a leader)
7 Tanerau Latimer(Form of his life for the chiefs, dominating the break down and great link between forwards and backs)
6 Adam Thompson( Seems to get better and better, quick, powerful and big hitter and working as hard as ever)
5 Sam Whitelock ( turning into one of the best locks in the world especially at line out time)
4 Jarrad Hoeata( big and powerful and helped make the highlanders pack one of the best around)
3 Owen Franks (big and extremely powerful, pretty mobile too)
2 Andrew Hore ( seems to have had a new lease of life at the highlanders)
1 Ben Franks ( same as his brother, big and powerful and handy in the loose, for me just shades jamie macintosh)

subs
16 hika elliot
17 jamie macintosh
18 brodie retallick
19 liam messam
20 kerr barlow
21 Tim Taylor
22 Richard Kahui

Very good majestic. Masaga is really coming on but he's one of those that always has some of the hard parts of the game missing. He pops up and dazzles then goes quiet.

Like the look of the backline but it just doesnt look stable enough to do the hard work and you get the feeling under pressure they'll get a bit desperate and try all sorts of things to get out of trouble (a la Blues style at the moment).

Whether we like it or not we need the cool heads of Carter, and especially Smith- a must for our backline.

McCaw will time his run perfectly and will be the first name on the page on 1 June.

Though I would like to give that side a run if Irelands wheels fall off first two tests.

Taylorman wrote:
Though I would like to give that side a run if Irelands wheels fall off first two tests.

We need to find some wheels first!

Surely the first two tests are ideal vehicles to polish some rough diamonds to put pressure on the 4N starters? The third test would be a good game to gel any players to emerge with the usual suspects.

Not too many rough diamonds The Great Aukster. I think Hansen will go for changes in lock and halfback and maybe put some fringe forwards in the reserves. But you don't go into a match against the quality of Ireland with a makeshift team, albeit one with Super rugby form. You need wise heads around those youngsters.

Good point about TH cover Kiwi. But does Ben Franks cover both sides? I thought he was only cover for his brother. We miss the versatility of a player like Yoda who could cover both sides of the scrum. They´re worth their weight in gold.

Guilford is another player Taylorman to jostle for that left wing spot. He's never really convinced in a black jersey but he has youth on his side. Smith seems to be catching the limelight for the Highlanders rather than Gear. Kahui can cover centre if he plays on the wing but then what to do with SBW. If Kahui plays then I'd rather pick a winger / fullback in cover rather than SBW who is limited only to centre. Then if Kahui is injured, you could always pull on Cruden and shift Carter and Nonu out one. Not ideal but I'd like that utility back to provide real impact if he comes on. Freuan could even be a shout in that role although he has no versatility in positioning.

Who will do the haka if Weepu (hopefully) doesn't make the cut?

hika Elliot,Hosea Gear,richard kahui.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:...
Good point about TH cover Kiwi. But does Ben Franks cover both sides? I thought he was only cover for his brother. We miss the versatility of a player like Yoda who could cover both sides of the scrum. They´re worth their weight in gold.

...

Ben Franks plays both sides, I think he's a better tighthead than loose though. He does start at loosehead on occasion for the Crusaders (Blackadder rotates the 3 props each week, so when it's Crockett's turn on the bench Ben is starting loosehead and Owen the tighthead)

Ben Franks covers both sides but to be honest I feel he is not really AB material at either position. On the other hand I don't know what option we have. Hore is doing fine and Elliot is the only fit back up even though I'm not sure about him in black.
I like Retallick and would love to see some one break into the ABs but agree that Eaton is doing well in a struggling pack. Whitelock is a given as I think are Reid, McCaw and Thompson (I prefer Vito who has more future than Thompson).
Forward reserves, Franks, Elliot, Eaton, Vito
I don't think Guildford has been able to step up to the AB level so far and that Kahui can do no wrong in an AB jersey so he will play 11. Ellis is the only experienced 9 with anything like form so he will start.
Smith and Carter are definites so its really about 12 and reserves. I'd go for SBW at 12 and Smith, Cruden and Nonu the back reserves.

I think whoever the ABs are should be shown this vid before going out against Ireland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfJHeho3l0w&feature=related Put hairs on the back of my neck!

In the vid, there are a couple of LOTR references. McCaw facing up against Tonga looks like the leader of the Urukai and then he does a Legolas impression stripping the ball against Australia.

Beaver at the end looks as though someone said to him, you know kicking the goal still doesn't change you´re a useless piece of s*** and he just waves it off and says I'm a likeable chap. Steve the Beave.

No matter how you look at it the all blacs don't really seem unsettled at all. Unless Hansen is thinking about trying a few new experments.

Perhhaps Andre Taylor? But then Dag is a class act. Can't really think of any other new faces.

Who will come in for Kaino? Thompson?

Thompson would be the first replacement followed by probably Messam,(Vito would primarily seen as the back up to Reid and if need be McCaw),the main advantage that thses two bring to the lose forward trio is that not only can they play a "left and right " role with McCaw but also these two bring aerial options and not just talking about lineouts. The real only other option would be a player like Karl lowe,who not only has all the aggression and power for blinside but he has that ball poaching ability as well.but then again limited in the air.

Lock and halfback are hopefully going to be new faces mate. No way Taylor will oust Dagg. Ben Smith would be in before if the squad expands. I'm not overly happy with Thomson as a replacement for Kaino but we would need a leap of faith and some patience much like what happened to Kaino after Collins to make that happen not to mention choosing the right man.

Kia
Who do you think would be a preferable replacement at 6?

Can't see anyone other than Thompson at 6. He offers different things than a Kaino type and rather than look for a Kaino replacement a McCaw, Read Thompson row with Vito/ Messam in the wings I reckon would go well.

Dagg, Jane and Smith are certs. Carter SBW and Gear/ Kahui surely.

Second locks really our only prob as no one jumps to mind whereas elsewhere we've options.

Looking at the AB site Mortimer thinks Taylor seems to have more momentum and pedigree than Smith and is certainly more dynamic.

http://www.allblacks.com/news/19251/All-Blacks-selection-analysis---Fullback

Smith is more of the reliable type than perhaps in the attacking mould of Muliana/ Cullen/ Dagg types that NZ seem to go for.

havnt seen much s15 this year can anyone enlighten as to what sort of players hoeata and retallick the locks? what sort of players are they? i would guess they are from the enforcer mould to partner whitelock?

on replacing mccaw, or at least having a capable long term replacement, i have never really rated thompson that highly. he seems a good domestic player but for me lacks the physicality to be a 6 and the ground skills to be a 7 at international level. seen him give away a lot of penalties when i have seen him play but i could have just caught him on bad days

Steve Hansen is a New ALLBLACKS Coach and his Coaching team will want a good start.Injuries permitting there will be few new faces until the AI`s.
The Front Row the Brothers Grim ,Wyatt Crockett,or Woodcock[if fit],Hookers hore,Mealamu or Flynn.Locks Whitelock,Donnelly,Ali Williams if fit it would have been anton Boric.Back row Thomson for Kaino,Read,Vito,McCaw[if fit]or Matt Todd.Scrum halves Andy Ellis, plus Jimmy Cowan onthe bench,Fly Halves Carter and Cruden.Mid field Nonu ,Conrad Smith,SBW,wings Corey Jane,Guildford,Kahui
FullBack Israel Dagg[if fit] Ben Smith.The Lineout is now the key area that Combo means 4 genuine Lineout specialists for the first time in years,Scrum won`t be inferior either.Back row probably play right and left.Goal kicking is a priority if DC can`t kick then a kicker is required,Dagg ans Cory Jane plus Crude can so get practicing.

No way Ali or Donnelly will be in the mix Alan. Donnelly's too old for a new look team and Ali's just plain useless (and old) . He has got worse since his mini come back a la Luke McAlister.

I'd see Eaton getting a chance with no one else obvious. He's thrived with the new look Canes but he's just as old so perhaps not.

Cruden's kicking is fine and now better than Carters so no worries there. They'll be the 10's this year.

Smith perhaps but Andre Taylor a better attack option at 15- all class at sxv level and has come through the ranks.

Aaron Smith will be in the mix as perhaps the only real new player Hansen will dabble with. Cowans gone...