Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
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anotherworldofpain
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Biltong
nganboy
The Great Aukster
Majestic83
Taylorman
kiakahaaotearoa
disneychilly
rodders
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aucklandlaurie
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
First topic message reminder :
This is the fat mans track. I haven't watched much super 15 this year (Kids sports and trips away). I'm interested to know who you think will be selcted based on supe 15 form.
Here's the team from the WC final, with some comments:
15 Israel Dagg - Seems to be coming into form, huge depth at 15.
14 Cory Jane
13 Conrad Smith - Should be in if the play a big inside center. What happens if carter starts at 12.
12 Ma'a Nonu - questionmarks about form, SBW and may be Carter looming on the horison
11 Richard Kahui _ Playing centre I think
10 Aaron Cruden - there because Carter was injured. I'm not sure he'll make the squad
9 Piri Weepu - Out of form (I'm guessing he was only in the starting line up as a kicker)
1 Tony Woodcock - Injured but should be right
2 Keven Mealamu - Out of form, so who are the hookers.
3 Owen Franks - In I'm guessing
4 Brad Thorn - Gone into semi retirement, wont be back .
5 Sam Whitelock - (probably a certainy)
6 Jerome Kaino - gone
7 Richie McCaw (c) - Just returning from injury - who's the back up
8 Kieran Read - (He's in)
Replacements
16 Andrew Hore
17 Ben Franks
18 Ali Williams - Out of form
19 Adam Thomson
20 Andy Ellis
21 Stephen Donald Gone to Overseas
22 Sonny Bill Williams
Like I said I haven't watched much, so I may be off the mark a bit.
This is the fat mans track. I haven't watched much super 15 this year (Kids sports and trips away). I'm interested to know who you think will be selcted based on supe 15 form.
Here's the team from the WC final, with some comments:
15 Israel Dagg - Seems to be coming into form, huge depth at 15.
14 Cory Jane
13 Conrad Smith - Should be in if the play a big inside center. What happens if carter starts at 12.
12 Ma'a Nonu - questionmarks about form, SBW and may be Carter looming on the horison
11 Richard Kahui _ Playing centre I think
10 Aaron Cruden - there because Carter was injured. I'm not sure he'll make the squad
9 Piri Weepu - Out of form (I'm guessing he was only in the starting line up as a kicker)
1 Tony Woodcock - Injured but should be right
2 Keven Mealamu - Out of form, so who are the hookers.
3 Owen Franks - In I'm guessing
4 Brad Thorn - Gone into semi retirement, wont be back .
5 Sam Whitelock - (probably a certainy)
6 Jerome Kaino - gone
7 Richie McCaw (c) - Just returning from injury - who's the back up
8 Kieran Read - (He's in)
Replacements
16 Andrew Hore
17 Ben Franks
18 Ali Williams - Out of form
19 Adam Thomson
20 Andy Ellis
21 Stephen Donald Gone to Overseas
22 Sonny Bill Williams
Like I said I haven't watched much, so I may be off the mark a bit.
blackcanelion- Posts : 1989
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Wellington
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Thompson is a 6 primarily and has suffered from the job of being the utility reserve. He isn't as physical but has lots of good skills. I think Matt Todd and Sam Cane or possibly Luke Braid are the future 7s for the ABs.
nganboy- Posts : 1868
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 55
Location : New Zealand
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Agree with Thompson Ngan. He's not Kaino but he offers a lot of mobility and I think with Read and McCaw would be an awesome go forward trio and won't suffer a lot on defence.
Back ups for McCaw is needed and Latimer is also being mentioned.
Back ups for McCaw is needed and Latimer is also being mentioned.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Taylorman,with respect Donnelly is THE best organizer of Lineouts in Nz Rugby,Age is not significant look at Thorn.Ali Williams is not the Ali of pre Achilles Problems,To damage them TWICE is bound to effect your game.Andy Haden rated Ali the BEST lock in NZ 2011 i`ll take his view over most others.This year
the Blues thru injuries are a disaster area.I note that there are 9 All Blacks currently injured including Nonu that is a hell of a lot of experience to lose in a squad.Donnelly is Whitelocks Crusaders partner,Selectors tend to go for PAIRS and Crusaders players have a head start.This is a series against a VERY experienced Irish team.The Heineken Cup Europes Premeir Club Event is between Leinster and Ulster.Jimmy Cowan is now showing some form and is THE best defensive SH in NZ possibly the World.Defence and Goal kicking are now the key factors with the new SH Refs interpratations the slashing counter attacking style is on the back burner.No Ireland side has beaten the AllBlacks
Especially in NZ ,Hansen will want to keep it that way.THE final point Dan Carter is playing 12 NOT 10,if fit he is certain at 10 but currently is unable to kick.There is NO recognised TEST Goal kicker in the likely team. Dagg and Cory Jane can kick BUT would you risk them in a test match kicking?So that means Cruden starting with DC on the bench probably.Tom Taylor is a likely candidate for the AI squad if they have mid week games.A 92% kicker and playing well enough at 10 for DC not to be missed there.An excellent pedigree Father Warwick and Uncle Murray both being All Blacks at one time.
the Blues thru injuries are a disaster area.I note that there are 9 All Blacks currently injured including Nonu that is a hell of a lot of experience to lose in a squad.Donnelly is Whitelocks Crusaders partner,Selectors tend to go for PAIRS and Crusaders players have a head start.This is a series against a VERY experienced Irish team.The Heineken Cup Europes Premeir Club Event is between Leinster and Ulster.Jimmy Cowan is now showing some form and is THE best defensive SH in NZ possibly the World.Defence and Goal kicking are now the key factors with the new SH Refs interpratations the slashing counter attacking style is on the back burner.No Ireland side has beaten the AllBlacks
Especially in NZ ,Hansen will want to keep it that way.THE final point Dan Carter is playing 12 NOT 10,if fit he is certain at 10 but currently is unable to kick.There is NO recognised TEST Goal kicker in the likely team. Dagg and Cory Jane can kick BUT would you risk them in a test match kicking?So that means Cruden starting with DC on the bench probably.Tom Taylor is a likely candidate for the AI squad if they have mid week games.A 92% kicker and playing well enough at 10 for DC not to be missed there.An excellent pedigree Father Warwick and Uncle Murray both being All Blacks at one time.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Then why isnt donnelly a regular all black? He hasnt been a first pick ever and wont be this year. Too much of a backward step. And Id take many an opinion before id take hadens. The proverbial foot in the mouth specialist.
Ali was useless last year. Where on earth did he play well in 2011. He kept dropping balls ansd so on and with the blues can hardly win a lineout.
Alan I think your basing things on subjective opinion and commentary without watching the games for yourself.
Cruden and Carter will be 10. There are no other options the next best too inexperienced. Cruden is on fire with the chiefs and his goal kicking is up there with the best. Due to carters presence we have other test kicker amyway. Nobody heard of tom taylor 4 weeks ago so hes not in the running. You dont go from 3 sxv games to ABs in 2 months.
Nobody is picking donnelly to be the second lock.
12 is a clear duel between nonu and sbw and sbw is way ahead. Smith will be centre. Dagg and jane have done enough and wing is up for one of three or four. Gear kahui the frontrunners.
Ali was useless last year. Where on earth did he play well in 2011. He kept dropping balls ansd so on and with the blues can hardly win a lineout.
Alan I think your basing things on subjective opinion and commentary without watching the games for yourself.
Cruden and Carter will be 10. There are no other options the next best too inexperienced. Cruden is on fire with the chiefs and his goal kicking is up there with the best. Due to carters presence we have other test kicker amyway. Nobody heard of tom taylor 4 weeks ago so hes not in the running. You dont go from 3 sxv games to ABs in 2 months.
Nobody is picking donnelly to be the second lock.
12 is a clear duel between nonu and sbw and sbw is way ahead. Smith will be centre. Dagg and jane have done enough and wing is up for one of three or four. Gear kahui the frontrunners.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
aucklandlaurie wrote: Kia
Who do you think would be a preferable replacement at 6?
I think Thomson is going to be the replacement. But what I'd like to see is the young Hoeata on the bench and for him to come on for Thomson rather than at lock. Messam and Vito at blindside don't work for me. (Vito could be an 8 or a 7 maybe in the future but speed is not that big an asset at 6. You need power and a capacity to be aggressive on defence like lifting up Ioane in the semi.
Thomson offers other attributes that are useful but with Thorn and Kaino gone we lack a bit of power in the pack. So bring in the big Waikato rig and put Hoeata on the bench.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I agree Vito is a 7 or 8 and nothing elsi.
I was very impressed last year when Hoeata played that one off test,but he now looks like he has lost a lot of bulk and Jamie Joseph doesnt seem tempted to let him out of the second row.
Have you had a look at the Hurricanes man Karl Lowe,this guy plays both a blindside openside equally well.
I was very impressed last year when Hoeata played that one off test,but he now looks like he has lost a lot of bulk and Jamie Joseph doesnt seem tempted to let him out of the second row.
Have you had a look at the Hurricanes man Karl Lowe,this guy plays both a blindside openside equally well.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Age : 68
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I should though add that I like the use of 4s that play 6 especially when your playing the likes of South Africa.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
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Age : 68
Location : Auckland
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I accept what's said about fruean, mainly his consonsistancy and defense, but he is one for the future. Nonu was suspect when he first broke on the scene, but perseverance with him shaped him into a regular and a relatively consistent one at that. Definetely smith as the main man, but also fruean over SBW.
We could go with SBW, but we dont know for how long? We could miss opportunities to mould fruean in the ABs environment. Down the line, could have Carter/Fruean in the midfield and you have the big man/distributor combo. Fruean has a better eye for the try line than SBW as well. Ok, he misses the odd tackle, I've seen smith miss tackles and concede tries to. He'll learn, like nonu did if faith is shown.
We could go with SBW, but we dont know for how long? We could miss opportunities to mould fruean in the ABs environment. Down the line, could have Carter/Fruean in the midfield and you have the big man/distributor combo. Fruean has a better eye for the try line than SBW as well. Ok, he misses the odd tackle, I've seen smith miss tackles and concede tries to. He'll learn, like nonu did if faith is shown.
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Ebop comparing smith amd fruean in terms of defence on the international stage is a mismatch. Fruean has known weaknesses and is currently at a very good level in terms of attack at sxv. Smith is a proven world class centre in both attack and defence, is probably more reliable than any other player to perform in the position so its chalk and cheese.
Fruean may get his chance but he needs to front more. He has far too many quiet periods to take seriously at the next level.
SBW is part of a very strong chiefs backline and gets the nod for that reason along with his obvious individual skills. Not a great fan of his but theres no denying hes thrived since his move there. A carter/ cruden SBW smith lineup is looking very likely.
Fruean has time to sort the rest of his game out. Too early just yet.
Fruean may get his chance but he needs to front more. He has far too many quiet periods to take seriously at the next level.
SBW is part of a very strong chiefs backline and gets the nod for that reason along with his obvious individual skills. Not a great fan of his but theres no denying hes thrived since his move there. A carter/ cruden SBW smith lineup is looking very likely.
Fruean has time to sort the rest of his game out. Too early just yet.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Haven't seen much of Lowe I have to admit Laurie. Watching the Hurricanes to me is like watching a car sliding in gravel. You never know if it'll turn out well or get ugly. In fairness they seemed to have had a much better season this year.
It's a good point EBOP. It's best to involve Fruean in the ABs sooner than later. Put him in against Argentina at home for example or take him in the autumn tour. But if that wily BOD is playing for Ireland or up against AAC, as it stands, his defensive game will be exposed I think. But he's too big an attacking weapon to leave him out in the cold and at risk for a foreign club to lure him away. I don't want to see the situation though that we hang onto SBW out of fear that he'll get up and leave if he doesn't make the team.
It's a good point EBOP. It's best to involve Fruean in the ABs sooner than later. Put him in against Argentina at home for example or take him in the autumn tour. But if that wily BOD is playing for Ireland or up against AAC, as it stands, his defensive game will be exposed I think. But he's too big an attacking weapon to leave him out in the cold and at risk for a foreign club to lure him away. I don't want to see the situation though that we hang onto SBW out of fear that he'll get up and leave if he doesn't make the team.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I can't see past, Carter, SBW and Smith to be honest, but then I don't know what Hansen would be thinking.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
People said exactly the same thing last year but Nonu ended up in the 12 shirt. I don't think this year will be any different. If Nonu's form in black is like what it is in blue then I expect him to be replaced. But the motivation to stay in black seems to bring out the urgency in Nonu that is nowhere to be seen in Super rugby. Also playing for a team that isn't clueless is a big help.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Yeah argie is perfect for a fruean debut kia. Or perhaps a 3rd Ireland test if they dont front the first two.
I dont see fruean as a long term option at 13 unless he adds more strings to his bow so in reality hes only in the mix at 12 for some time to come and needs to oust the SBW nonu stronghold.
They just offer more experience and defensive qualities at the moment.
At the same time new coaches like to make statements by introducing a risky but potentially great player. I just hope Frueans not in that category. As you say. Ireland will turn him given the chance. Theyre best hope is to unsettle amyone new.
I dont see fruean as a long term option at 13 unless he adds more strings to his bow so in reality hes only in the mix at 12 for some time to come and needs to oust the SBW nonu stronghold.
They just offer more experience and defensive qualities at the moment.
At the same time new coaches like to make statements by introducing a risky but potentially great player. I just hope Frueans not in that category. As you say. Ireland will turn him given the chance. Theyre best hope is to unsettle amyone new.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
You seriously think after the form SBW has been showing vs the relatively poor form of Nonu, Hansen will pick Nonu?
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Nonus the incumbant and proven at test level. SBW isnt. Hansen has already said poor sxv form isnt worrying him as the AB environment will pick that up.
Plus hansen was part of the decision tree that kept nonu ahead of sbw back when things were close but no doubt smith will try and change that thinking if hes allowed a word in.
Plus hansen was part of the decision tree that kept nonu ahead of sbw back when things were close but no doubt smith will try and change that thinking if hes allowed a word in.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
That may be so, but has Hansen not learnt under Graham Henry that poor form shouldn't be rewarded?
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Love people with short memories,Donnelly totally rebuilt the line out in 2009.Thorn for all his abilities was never a Line out options.Ali Williams in a Black shirt is different from a struggling Super side.THAT applies to ALL the sides.
Donnelly or Eaton are stopgaps with ali off the bench,Boric long term will partner Whitelock.Matt Todd is the most likely 7 starter until RM is up to speed,Thomson
is a certainty a 6.Luke Whitelock longterm at 6 or 8,but there is no shortage of good young loosies in NZ.Fruen is not yet ready,SBW unless he commits to NZ forget him.Carter won`t start at 10 unless he can kick or there is recognised goalkicker in the side Dagg could do it if fit.Super15 you should know is useless as a form guide,Kahui,SBW ,Nonu and Smith will be midfield,back 3 Cory Jane,Guildford,Gear,Dagg,Ben Smith.MY picks are player i`ve seen play in Black NOT on hearsay something I NEVER DO thought you knew me better than that.
As to Tom Taylor my rating him was on last years S15 when he filled in for Carter/Berquist and I beleive Isreal Dagg.Crisaders last year without many stars were still the pick of the Super sides last year.IF they were playing in the Austrailan conference with a lot of soft wins they would have walked to another Super title in 2011.The Reds deserved it beating all those in front of them thats the way to do it.
Donnelly or Eaton are stopgaps with ali off the bench,Boric long term will partner Whitelock.Matt Todd is the most likely 7 starter until RM is up to speed,Thomson
is a certainty a 6.Luke Whitelock longterm at 6 or 8,but there is no shortage of good young loosies in NZ.Fruen is not yet ready,SBW unless he commits to NZ forget him.Carter won`t start at 10 unless he can kick or there is recognised goalkicker in the side Dagg could do it if fit.Super15 you should know is useless as a form guide,Kahui,SBW ,Nonu and Smith will be midfield,back 3 Cory Jane,Guildford,Gear,Dagg,Ben Smith.MY picks are player i`ve seen play in Black NOT on hearsay something I NEVER DO thought you knew me better than that.
As to Tom Taylor my rating him was on last years S15 when he filled in for Carter/Berquist and I beleive Isreal Dagg.Crisaders last year without many stars were still the pick of the Super sides last year.IF they were playing in the Austrailan conference with a lot of soft wins they would have walked to another Super title in 2011.The Reds deserved it beating all those in front of them thats the way to do it.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I think Nonu was one of the leading ABs after poor form for the Hurricanes. Dagg was promoted ahead of Muliaina so do you have examples of poor form being rewarded by Henry Biltong? I can think of Cowan but even he got demoted.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
emack2 wrote:Love people with short memories,Donnelly totally rebuilt the line out in 2009.Thorn for all his abilities was never a Line out options.Ali Williams in a Black shirt is different from a struggling Super side.THAT applies to ALL the sides.
Donnelly or Eaton are stopgaps with ali off the bench,Boric long term will partner Whitelock.Matt Todd is the most likely 7 starter until RM is up to speed,Thomson
is a certainty a 6.Luke Whitelock longterm at 6 or 8,but there is no shortage of good young loosies in NZ.Fruen is not yet ready,SBW unless he commits to NZ forget him.Carter won`t start at 10 unless he can kick or there is recognised goalkicker in the side Dagg could do it if fit.Super15 you should know is useless as a form guide,Kahui,SBW ,Nonu and Smith will be midfield,back 3 Cory Jane,Guildford,Gear,Dagg,Ben Smith.MY picks are player i`ve seen play in Black NOT on hearsay something I NEVER DO thought you knew me better than that.
As to Tom Taylor my rating him was on last years S15 when he filled in for Carter/Berquist and I beleive Isreal Dagg.Crisaders last year without many stars were still the pick of the Super sides last year.IF they were playing in the Austrailan conference with a lot of soft wins they would have walked to another Super title in 2011.The Reds deserved it beating all those in front of them thats the way to do it.
Short memories?
Where was Donnelly last year then? What did you 'see'? See him coming off the bench for the Highlanders most of the season? Hardly vintage form.
Boric has yet to prove himself also. Upshot is we have no second lock and its time to blood a young one.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Taylorman,it is not who you are but who you play for Crusaders Locks over the last few years,Jack, Williams, Thorn ,Williams,Robinson Williams,[Auckland then]
Ross,Thorn,Whitelock ,Thorn.Highlanders have been under achieving for years until this Donnelly and Whitelock have gone ok.Tell me from your vast experience How many Crusaders who were journeyman but still got capped
Hamilton.Lua Lua,Waldron,Brett,to name but a few.Hansen is in an invidous position win and it will be that is because he has inherited a squad.Lose if he picks on form and loses bringing in new faces he will get stick from the Media.
You know from 2009 what happens if AllBlacks have a losing run Coaches will be questioned.ALL BLACKS DON`T LOSE because you never for give them I tell you this if another Lock is picked it will be a previous AllBlack not a new boy.
Ross,Thorn,Whitelock ,Thorn.Highlanders have been under achieving for years until this Donnelly and Whitelock have gone ok.Tell me from your vast experience How many Crusaders who were journeyman but still got capped
Hamilton.Lua Lua,Waldron,Brett,to name but a few.Hansen is in an invidous position win and it will be that is because he has inherited a squad.Lose if he picks on form and loses bringing in new faces he will get stick from the Media.
You know from 2009 what happens if AllBlacks have a losing run Coaches will be questioned.ALL BLACKS DON`T LOSE because you never for give them I tell you this if another Lock is picked it will be a previous AllBlack not a new boy.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Hika Elliot for hooker. He is amazing in form last week and similar to stature Mealamu. He also have a green time already with NZ.
NZ can afford go with more pace in the back row for Ireland and Argentina so can look at the option of Victor Vito or Liam Messam. My mind is both playing better form and confidence this year.
Lok is interesting combinator because Thorn leave such a big space and Rettalick not ready yet, Hoeata not ready yet and experiencers all out of form.
NZ can afford go with more pace in the back row for Ireland and Argentina so can look at the option of Victor Vito or Liam Messam. My mind is both playing better form and confidence this year.
Lok is interesting combinator because Thorn leave such a big space and Rettalick not ready yet, Hoeata not ready yet and experiencers all out of form.
anotherworldofpain- Posts : 2803
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
It was well said by someone it is easier to get into an International side than get out of it.Coaches especially New Ones tend to stick with established players over promising ones.Martin Johnson for example was loyal to his old guard for too long.SA maybe with Smit,Montgomery,and Butch James as examples too. Unless some one has an over whelming example Hosea Gear when he replaced Joe Rokococo for example.He will be loyal to his team even if they are out of form.Traditionally a Intrenational side is built around the best Club/Provivn cial .Franchise etc.It has very often been the case of not who you are but who you play for.An England player has a better chance of selection if he plays for say Leicester than Exeter.Back in the dark ages of Amateur Rugby[at least at my level Old School Club] you played to get fit.For the comradeship and FUN it was a Winter game lasting roughly Septemberhalf way thru till Ist May thenyou played Cricket.Now it is Professional and it is an 11 month year.Players treat it as a JOB,with the best will in the World.They are`nt going to be playing flat out all the time. Like all workmen they have tools in this case there Bodies,except for injury or illness.There is no excuse for lack of fitness,a player should`nt be able to just do enough to get by at Super 15 or in the case of Boks.Turn up from Japan or NH [this includes Nonu] and expect a Test Place.Of course with the long season it is the Coaches job to see that his players are fit/rested etc.
What happens at Super level it is becoming clear that some players are relying on the Loyalty card a bit to much.I will be very interested to see the relevant SH Test Squads NZ expect maybe 25 old faces plus 10 or 15 new faces to be given
a taste of AB atmosphere. Don`t expect to many bolters SBW and Conrad Smith may start,Carter and McCaw saved for the 4Ns when fully fit.
What happens at Super level it is becoming clear that some players are relying on the Loyalty card a bit to much.I will be very interested to see the relevant SH Test Squads NZ expect maybe 25 old faces plus 10 or 15 new faces to be given
a taste of AB atmosphere. Don`t expect to many bolters SBW and Conrad Smith may start,Carter and McCaw saved for the 4Ns when fully fit.
emack2- Posts : 3686
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Hansen said today that "SBW is the form 12", a pretty clear hint.
Pete C (Kiwireddevil)- Posts : 10925
Join date : 2011-01-26
Location : London, England
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
With Tom Taylor replace Carter at 10 for Crusaders and show good form. Will all blacks take taylor/carter 10/12 and not Nonu or SBW?
Also Cruden show good form for chiefs so must be hard pick 10/12 for new zeeland right now.
For me Carter is so great history of play but not prooven yet on the come back.
Also Cruden show good form for chiefs so must be hard pick 10/12 for new zeeland right now.
For me Carter is so great history of play but not prooven yet on the come back.
anotherworldofpain- Posts : 2803
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Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Taylor will not play in the ABs this year. Cruden is ahead of him and Carter will be back. With SBW and Nonu available there is no need to push Carter out to 12.
How about Kahui at 12?
Silky centre pairing then!
How about Kahui at 12?
Silky centre pairing then!
nganboy- Posts : 1868
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 55
Location : New Zealand
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
A Taylor Carter Smith backline wont work. For Internationals too light and no one to do the hit ups. Too far away from the usual at least one big 12 or 13 role.
Defensively theyd be ok but will find forwards running at them all day long.
Crusaders can do it 10, 12 as they have Fruean at Centre and a Carter Nonu/ SBW Smith combo works for the same reason.
Carters still complaining about his groing and he should just rest completely. Whats the point of playing half games never knowing when its going to pull up like last year.
Defensively theyd be ok but will find forwards running at them all day long.
Crusaders can do it 10, 12 as they have Fruean at Centre and a Carter Nonu/ SBW Smith combo works for the same reason.
Carters still complaining about his groing and he should just rest completely. Whats the point of playing half games never knowing when its going to pull up like last year.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
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Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Can play Taylor/Carter as first and second five eight with allow rotation and bring in a bigger carry player outside. all blacks lucky position in they have big player with all skills, so is not difficult to play SBW or Nonu at 13 and rotate in for heavy work to 12 spot.
My mind is if Cooper can playing 10 and shift to 15 in defender combinator then is makes possible.
Similar England try this configurator with Flood/Farrel and Tuilagi.
Just my mind, maybe it lack sleep.
My mind is if Cooper can playing 10 and shift to 15 in defender combinator then is makes possible.
Similar England try this configurator with Flood/Farrel and Tuilagi.
Just my mind, maybe it lack sleep.
anotherworldofpain- Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 45
Location : St John's Wood, London
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I think if Carter is going to be managed properly, he needs to be given time to get over this groin complaint. I'm sure his wife can help out with some extra massage.
To me the possibility of putting Carter in at 12 is all because we feel that we have to play him and if he can't run the ship and do the goalkicking, then he needs to be involved in the team somehow and 12 is a way of doing that. This thinking is gravely mistaken. You can't have passengers in the ABs. You're either good enough to do the job or you´re out. For me what last year proved is that we are capable of winning games without him and this year has shown that we do have options.
I'm not saying that his career is over but I'm saying that he isn't the form inside centre and a 60 to 70 per cent version of Carter away from his preferred position is not better or even as good as a specialist in form.
So whilst Blackadder is making the best use of his star, the same shouldn't apply for the ABs. If Carter can't play at 10 then Cruden goes in there and SBW and Nonu (Hansen has said SBW has the spot on form but if that is the case Nonu should be on the bench to prove that he can still cut the mustard as he has done in the past) fight it out for inside centre.
That said Kurtley Beale has shown some form in the 10 jersey. I like the idea of Cruden and Dagg changing in attack and defence every once and a while to keep defences or attacks guessing.
To me the possibility of putting Carter in at 12 is all because we feel that we have to play him and if he can't run the ship and do the goalkicking, then he needs to be involved in the team somehow and 12 is a way of doing that. This thinking is gravely mistaken. You can't have passengers in the ABs. You're either good enough to do the job or you´re out. For me what last year proved is that we are capable of winning games without him and this year has shown that we do have options.
I'm not saying that his career is over but I'm saying that he isn't the form inside centre and a 60 to 70 per cent version of Carter away from his preferred position is not better or even as good as a specialist in form.
So whilst Blackadder is making the best use of his star, the same shouldn't apply for the ABs. If Carter can't play at 10 then Cruden goes in there and SBW and Nonu (Hansen has said SBW has the spot on form but if that is the case Nonu should be on the bench to prove that he can still cut the mustard as he has done in the past) fight it out for inside centre.
That said Kurtley Beale has shown some form in the 10 jersey. I like the idea of Cruden and Dagg changing in attack and defence every once and a while to keep defences or attacks guessing.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I'm worried about Carter as I don't want Weepu anywhere near the team (from a Hutt Valley bloke too). Ellis and Smith for mine at 9 with Carter or Cruden at 10. If Carter starts at 10 I'd put Smith in at 9-Cruden and Smith together would be a bit fresh. Agree totally with Kia about Carter at 12. SBW is in great form. Let him start. Cruden is playing well. Let's not forget he handled the RWC semi with aplomb and his goalkicking is coming on. Wondering if Dagg will be practising his goalkicking as it may be needed without Weepu.
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
Join date : 2011-03-23
Location : Dublin
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Based on what I've seen so far, I be tempted to go with this team:
1 Woodcock
2 Hore
3 O Franks
4 Whitelock
5 Donnelly/Retallick
6 Vito
7 McCaw
8 Read
9 Ellis
10 Cruden
11 Kahui
12 SBW
13 Smith
14 Jane
15 Dagg
16 B Franks
17 Coles/Elliott
18 Todd
19 Donnelly/Retallick
20 Perenara
21 Carter
22 A Taylor
1 Woodcock
2 Hore
3 O Franks
4 Whitelock
5 Donnelly/Retallick
6 Vito
7 McCaw
8 Read
9 Ellis
10 Cruden
11 Kahui
12 SBW
13 Smith
14 Jane
15 Dagg
16 B Franks
17 Coles/Elliott
18 Todd
19 Donnelly/Retallick
20 Perenara
21 Carter
22 A Taylor
chewed_mintie- Posts : 1225
Join date : 2011-05-09
Location : Cheshire
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Indications now are Carter starting at 12,Crudon at 10 expect Ali Williams to partner Whitelock.Indicationds are they don`t want to start 2 relatively inexperienced Locks.Front row picks itself Brothers Grimm and Woodcock.Hore and Flynn or Hika Elliott.A young Lock or Jason Eaton/Tom Donnelly bench lock.Ellis and possibly Brendan Leonard [makes sense if Crudon starts]Kahui and Cory jane Guildford as wings Conrad Smith at 13 ,SBW or Nonu Bench,Dagg at full back.Ritchie,read,Thomson,Vito possibly Hoerta as Lock/6 cover.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
A Crudon, Carter, Smith combination would have to be one of the tiniest ever and a huge bait for opposition teams to crash. Simply cannot go along with that as an attacking option for the AB's.
Carter lacks the Nonu/ SBW and even Kahui physical and intimidating presence you must have in todays international midfield's so Hansen would be insane to go there. You can't have 'quick thinking intellectuals' in all 3 positions. Someones gotta play the crash truck role out there.
Agree with Kia, Carter has not won tests for the AB's for a long time and we need to move on if he can't get over this injury.
Alan Kerr Barlow has been partnering Cruden very successfully this season with Leonard now a tired afterthought...been there done that. One of he, Perenara or Aaron Smith will be the main half by the end of the year, Ellis starting off against Ireland.
Carter lacks the Nonu/ SBW and even Kahui physical and intimidating presence you must have in todays international midfield's so Hansen would be insane to go there. You can't have 'quick thinking intellectuals' in all 3 positions. Someones gotta play the crash truck role out there.
Agree with Kia, Carter has not won tests for the AB's for a long time and we need to move on if he can't get over this injury.
Alan Kerr Barlow has been partnering Cruden very successfully this season with Leonard now a tired afterthought...been there done that. One of he, Perenara or Aaron Smith will be the main half by the end of the year, Ellis starting off against Ireland.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
The suggestions by Hansen that carter might play 2nd 5 8th are Hansen just flying a kite.
I somewhat get the feeling that blackadder is using Carter just to manage the crusader backline and not seriously looking at him as a 2nd5.If Zac and Israel were left in charge they'd probably just go to the pub.
I somewhat get the feeling that blackadder is using Carter just to manage the crusader backline and not seriously looking at him as a 2nd5.If Zac and Israel were left in charge they'd probably just go to the pub.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 68
Location : Auckland
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
aucklandlaurie wrote: The suggestions by Hansen that carter might play 2nd 5 8th are Hansen just flying a kite.
I somewhat get the feeling that blackadder is using Carter just to manage the crusader backline and not seriously looking at him as a 2nd5.If Zac and Israel were left in charge they'd probably just go to the pub.
Which one Laurie...I'd like to hear a yarn or two?
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Just a couple of thoughts.
Injuries: Aren't Woodcock and Carter under injury clouds. Woodcock I think is still out and DC still has problems with the injury incurred at the world cup. He can't be relied on to kick goals, or possibly in general play.
Hansen has stated that the WC squad are mostly the incumbents. So I'm not expecting to many from out of the squad. The real exception is probably Weepu. I think he probably started in the WC because of his goal kicking. I can't see him in the squad this time round. Given it's Ireland thy may rest Carter and try Cruden and one of the other 1st fives (e.g. Barrit or Taylor).
There's a bit of talent coming through in the backs. But I'd expect Hansen to stay with the tried and tested. I would'nt be surprised if Taylor is on the subs bench.
The real test is in the forwards. Who to play at lock and blindside. I'm guessing they are looking at two hard tackling, hard running tight players, given the other players in the pack. I thinking this means Thompson may be on the bench.
Injuries: Aren't Woodcock and Carter under injury clouds. Woodcock I think is still out and DC still has problems with the injury incurred at the world cup. He can't be relied on to kick goals, or possibly in general play.
Hansen has stated that the WC squad are mostly the incumbents. So I'm not expecting to many from out of the squad. The real exception is probably Weepu. I think he probably started in the WC because of his goal kicking. I can't see him in the squad this time round. Given it's Ireland thy may rest Carter and try Cruden and one of the other 1st fives (e.g. Barrit or Taylor).
There's a bit of talent coming through in the backs. But I'd expect Hansen to stay with the tried and tested. I would'nt be surprised if Taylor is on the subs bench.
The real test is in the forwards. Who to play at lock and blindside. I'm guessing they are looking at two hard tackling, hard running tight players, given the other players in the pack. I thinking this means Thompson may be on the bench.
blackcanelion- Posts : 1989
Join date : 2011-06-20
Location : Wellington
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Carter at 12 is gotta be a red herring, perhaps to apply a bit of pressure on nonu and SBW, especially nonu. Cruden is playing solidly enough and not the boy rabbit in headlights like when he first broke into the team. He did well in the short game time he had in the WC to, I'm not as nervous about him as I used to be.
Carter's groin is a worry for his long-term game. Niggly injuries like that take a long time (season) to heal, and what other damage is he doing to his body whilst playing with this niggle. Could this be the beginning of the end for the maestro?
What about throwing fruean in the 'squad'? Just joking, I've learnt my lesson. Everyone's saying the same thing about him, poor guy must be developing a complex about being a rubbish tackler and lazy.
Carter's groin is a worry for his long-term game. Niggly injuries like that take a long time (season) to heal, and what other damage is he doing to his body whilst playing with this niggle. Could this be the beginning of the end for the maestro?
What about throwing fruean in the 'squad'? Just joking, I've learnt my lesson. Everyone's saying the same thing about him, poor guy must be developing a complex about being a rubbish tackler and lazy.
Guest- Guest
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
It's not a question of him being a rubbish tackler EBOP. It´s more the lines he chooses and his tendency to rush up in the line and get caught out. I think Argentina would be a good time to give him a run out for the ABs and a chance to rest the incumbents like Smith.
I think Carter should stop goalkicking (I know that´s what he's done but I mean full stop) and that might well prolong his career. Although I don't care much for the man, I agreed with Earle Kirton (the man who wants to put SBW on the right wing) on the point that Carter is best at 10 and putting him at 12 diminishes the effect he can have on a game. One position inside and he can dictate a game. At 12 he can dictate maybe a couple of crucial plays.
I think Carter should stop goalkicking (I know that´s what he's done but I mean full stop) and that might well prolong his career. Although I don't care much for the man, I agreed with Earle Kirton (the man who wants to put SBW on the right wing) on the point that Carter is best at 10 and putting him at 12 diminishes the effect he can have on a game. One position inside and he can dictate a game. At 12 he can dictate maybe a couple of crucial plays.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I still don't like the idea of Kahui being a utility despite his class. He's a 13. Smith won't be around forever and I think he's been lucky in the past as injury has prevented Kahui from usurping him. Smith should still start but I hope Kahui isn't disillusioned about not being able to play in his preferred position. He's a player that musn't go abroad IMO.
disneychilly- Posts : 2156
Join date : 2011-03-23
Location : Dublin
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I think about what other posters here saying and I agree to change my mind already.
Fact is Daniel Carter in some form at all is the best pick. He has best abilities and most potentials. But for the next game coaches must pick best playing at the moment and from super rugby there is Aaron Cruden in my mind. Unless some miracle happen and DC play like a god in the weeks next coming.
Also for all blacks must now take opportunity to growing other options before they stuck in 2015 again with problem like 2011. Grow Cruden and show confidence in him and say yes you are playing best so you will start. And also grow new options like this Taylor and see now if he has a promise at top level.
Coaches must learn from England 2003 and South Africa 2007 and others too and not stick with players just because they win a little yellow cup last year. Those players all picked on the time because they had a form, so they had they're sunshine and now if they choose to sit in the grass and get fat and watch the clouds, then they must know sorry but you keep the bench company or sit in the stand, or watch on tv.
My mind is though painful maybe might be ok for all blacks to name best side on form and if they lose one to Ireland then who cares? has to happen one day. Don't get jammed into the rut. Keep moving forwards.
Fact is Daniel Carter in some form at all is the best pick. He has best abilities and most potentials. But for the next game coaches must pick best playing at the moment and from super rugby there is Aaron Cruden in my mind. Unless some miracle happen and DC play like a god in the weeks next coming.
Also for all blacks must now take opportunity to growing other options before they stuck in 2015 again with problem like 2011. Grow Cruden and show confidence in him and say yes you are playing best so you will start. And also grow new options like this Taylor and see now if he has a promise at top level.
Coaches must learn from England 2003 and South Africa 2007 and others too and not stick with players just because they win a little yellow cup last year. Those players all picked on the time because they had a form, so they had they're sunshine and now if they choose to sit in the grass and get fat and watch the clouds, then they must know sorry but you keep the bench company or sit in the stand, or watch on tv.
My mind is though painful maybe might be ok for all blacks to name best side on form and if they lose one to Ireland then who cares? has to happen one day. Don't get jammed into the rut. Keep moving forwards.
anotherworldofpain- Posts : 2803
Join date : 2012-04-05
Age : 45
Location : St John's Wood, London
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Is DC vital for the Irish tests? Why can't we rest him, let him get some more time in s15 then when he's fully recovered he can play in the rugby championship? Cruden is playing well enough to be an AB, has experience and it's building depth in an important position
Last edited by dallym on Thu 10 May 2012, 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : wrong word)
dallym- Posts : 420
Join date : 2012-04-30
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Agree dallym,
Carter limping around is getting to be a bit of a common thing so we need to have at least Cruden up to test standard.. fast.
With his latest run of confidence I think we'll have a match for Mr Cooper...
So obvious I could pin a tail on it a call it a ...
Carter limping around is getting to be a bit of a common thing so we need to have at least Cruden up to test standard.. fast.
With his latest run of confidence I think we'll have a match for Mr Cooper...
So obvious I could pin a tail on it a call it a ...
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Agree Dally, i would give DC a break. Cruden backed up by Barrett! How's that for young
nganboy- Posts : 1868
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 55
Location : New Zealand
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
As I have said on numerous occassions Dan Carter in any sort of form is an automatic choice.There is now plenty of cover coming thru at 10 Crudon is now the leading light.BUT a Goal kicker NOW is a must Crudon starting at 10 versus Ireland makes sense. Rest Carter till the 4Ns get Dagg doing a lot of goalkicking practice. DC is either near a 100% kicker or 50 % depending on the matches. He may be Worlds leading points scorers but a lot of them are tries,and the Drop goal is`nt natural to him.I see the Aussies don`t rate SBW much this year,Nonu who can tell.He was poor at Wellington last year[as was most of them]BUT they all came thru in the Black Shirt.Like youTaylorman not happy about the obsessuion with the utility bit Kahui might be happy at 12 with Conrad Smith at 13.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
I agree Kahui is a brilliant 13 just bad luck for him Smith is so good right now.
nganboy- Posts : 1868
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 55
Location : New Zealand
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Maybe Alan but for me too many nice guys when you take out Kaino, Thorne, Nonu and SBW and replace them with the Eaton, Donnelly, Kahui types
You need some mongrel in there and although Kahui's big and talented I don't think he's as brutal as we need in midfield, and he's brittle, always succumbing to injury.
Like you I think Nonu will come right when hes back in the AB environment. He's been mucked around with at sxv level and although hes brought it on himself he needs the higher level of play to perform his best I think.
So the shootout between SBW and Nonu will continue but with SBW having had more exposure this year I think hes got the jump on Nonu.
Cruden Nonu/ SBW and Smith easy for me. Thats as good as we'll get and I'd back that line against anyone.
Carter won't be ready. Even now he's still favouring his groin just to stay on the field- out of position, can't kick etc.
Back up kicker? Dagg perhaps but agree we could be short there unless we pick a specialist kicker a la Morne Steyn style- Taylor fits that mould at the mo. Good kicker but steady to medium all round.
You need some mongrel in there and although Kahui's big and talented I don't think he's as brutal as we need in midfield, and he's brittle, always succumbing to injury.
Like you I think Nonu will come right when hes back in the AB environment. He's been mucked around with at sxv level and although hes brought it on himself he needs the higher level of play to perform his best I think.
So the shootout between SBW and Nonu will continue but with SBW having had more exposure this year I think hes got the jump on Nonu.
Cruden Nonu/ SBW and Smith easy for me. Thats as good as we'll get and I'd back that line against anyone.
Carter won't be ready. Even now he's still favouring his groin just to stay on the field- out of position, can't kick etc.
Back up kicker? Dagg perhaps but agree we could be short there unless we pick a specialist kicker a la Morne Steyn style- Taylor fits that mould at the mo. Good kicker but steady to medium all round.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Cruden gets most of his kicks, i dont think we should get over concerned about backup kickers,what we need to do is score more trys than the opposition and if they want to catch up via 3point instalments then let them.
In so far as Maa Nonu is concerned,I think he's flat he's been playing almost non stop since the begining of last years Super xiv,thats nearly 15 months.
Emack: When the Aussies say they dont rate Sonny Bill,Thats their way of saying that they do rate him.
In so far as Maa Nonu is concerned,I think he's flat he's been playing almost non stop since the begining of last years Super xiv,thats nearly 15 months.
Emack: When the Aussies say they dont rate Sonny Bill,Thats their way of saying that they do rate him.
aucklandlaurie- Posts : 7561
Join date : 2011-06-27
Age : 68
Location : Auckland
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
With the Irish tests you can afford a little leeway,no disrespect to Ireland BUTthe 4Ns.WILL be settled by goal kickers it`s back to 2009 as far as the Refs are concerned this year.Bet on the BOKS !!!
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
The Boks are the biggest unknown quantity Alan. They potentially have the most positions to fill and have a new coach. If M Steyn is picked then it will send a clear message as to what the game plan is because M Steyn, and therefore SA, don't have another game plan when he's playing. But if by some miracle Meyer plumps for Lambie then I think Aus and NZ won't quite know what to expect.
I wouldn't be surprised Hansen is playing mind games with Nonu by saying SBW has the nod at this stage. I don't think he'll spring many surprises in the team. The changes will be at halfback, the locking partner for Whitelock, Woodcock if he's under an injury cloud and Thomson will probably be blindside for Kaino.
If Carter and Cruden are picked I'd like to see Cruden start and Carter to be on the bench. By all means start DC when fully fit but give the kid a chance at the top level as his confidence has grown immensely with his involvement in the RWC last year, however fleeting as it's seemed to have had a more lasting effect on him this year.
I'd like to see the ABs, free from the pressure of the RWC, to express themselves in a more attacking way. Many people are not enamoured with Foster, be it the beer or the back's coach. But he did good work with the now defunct Junior ABs and I'd like to see us ramping up the attack more instead of going for the low percentage rugby. It doesn't sit well with me playing within ourselves. Take the attack to all parts of the park and do it with precision and pace. We have the players for it. If Beale starts for Australia at 10, we´ll know how they'll want to play the game.
I wouldn't be surprised Hansen is playing mind games with Nonu by saying SBW has the nod at this stage. I don't think he'll spring many surprises in the team. The changes will be at halfback, the locking partner for Whitelock, Woodcock if he's under an injury cloud and Thomson will probably be blindside for Kaino.
If Carter and Cruden are picked I'd like to see Cruden start and Carter to be on the bench. By all means start DC when fully fit but give the kid a chance at the top level as his confidence has grown immensely with his involvement in the RWC last year, however fleeting as it's seemed to have had a more lasting effect on him this year.
I'd like to see the ABs, free from the pressure of the RWC, to express themselves in a more attacking way. Many people are not enamoured with Foster, be it the beer or the back's coach. But he did good work with the now defunct Junior ABs and I'd like to see us ramping up the attack more instead of going for the low percentage rugby. It doesn't sit well with me playing within ourselves. Take the attack to all parts of the park and do it with precision and pace. We have the players for it. If Beale starts for Australia at 10, we´ll know how they'll want to play the game.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
All round beales a better option at 10 than cooper i believe as hes a better option taker. Giving beale the ball more at 10 than he gets at 15 worries me. Hes one player that always has to be watched. His fullback experience gives him a greater awareness of space on attack and close in at 10 he'll be a handful.
Taylorman- Posts : 12343
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ
Re: Who are you picking for the AB's to play Ireland
Australia are spoiled for choice at 10.I fancy O`Connor there myself but who know`s.Come the 4Ns Cooper maybe fit and OZ may fancy him. Still the 4Ns will almost certainly be decided by the Boot on S15 Refs decision form.
emack2- Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Bournemouth
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