John Beattie - Irish Provinces a step ahead of the rest.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:06 pm

John Beattie says that other countries should learn from Ireland's success at provincial level.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching. He also takes about an 'X Factor' in Irish rugby which he describes as "a strength in depth and a coaching pool of talent that is multi-national and highly paid."

I agree with him on a lot of these points, grass roots rugby in Ireland has rocketed in the past 10 years, in term of the number of schools that play it and the number of fans there are now. Foreign signings, we are definitely leading the way, granted the French clubs buy some brilliant players as well, but the Scottish, English and Welsh teams don't seem to sign the same calibre of player very often, they seem more likely to buy a larger number of good players instead of a small number of brilliant players. We have what he calls a 'handy number of teams' and with regard to coaching we have top coaches not just at the provinces but at other top clubs as well (Bradley at Edinburgh, O'Shea at Harlequins, McCall at Saracens etc.)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/irish_lead_the_way_thanks_to_s.html

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:14 pm

Good points but before we get carried away by the hype and naval gazing I think it should be pointed out that we could learn from a lot of other countries success at National level because our record in the 6N and RWC is appalling given the talent and resources available.

It is absolutely fantastic that we have an all Irish HEC final...and lets not forget Munster who topped their pool but whats clear is the provinces are getting stronger relative to their European rivals whereas the National side is getting weaker each season.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:15 pm

I agree rodders, I thought about saying that at the end of the OP - there is no reason we shouldn't be winning more Six Nations given how good the provinces are - coaching is mentioned as a strength yet our natioanl team clearly has the wrong man in charge.

by red_stag Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:16 pm

Rodders,

Spoiler:

by **rodders** Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:17 pm

Stag

by formerly known as Sam Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:47 pm

Munster had their group of legends a team that really was great and they have largely stuck with them, some younger guys are coming through and giving them a boost but it is an aging squad. Leinster are now in a similar position, the current team is brilliant but there is a core of players that are certainly not getting any younger and it will be interesting to see how the bring in the next wave of players as that is something Munster have struggled with.

The Irish teams have shown a distinct domination over the HEC in recent years, similar to English success in the earlier 00's with Tigers, Wasps and Saints. It will be interesting to see if this is a cycle or whether there is constant and whether the Irish national team will continue to under perform.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching

It is only the correct number of teams whilst the 4 teams continue to provide Ireland with the required number of players in each position. Whilst the foreign signings have often been inspirations for their clubs they have been an error for the international team. The signings of foreign tightheads in particular with only Ross really being of international quality and he was developed abroad. Would a more expansive Irish league give young Irish players more chances and an earlier chance to develop rather than just guarenteeing 3 of the 4 teams good strength in depth with players waiting until their mid 20s to establish themselves?

by red_stag Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:49 pm

Spoiler:

by red_stag Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:55 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Munster had their group of legends a team that really was great and they have largely stuck with them, some younger guys are coming through and giving them a boost but it is an aging squad. Leinster are now in a similar position, the current team is brilliant but there is a core of players that are certainly not getting any younger and it will be interesting to see how the bring in the next wave of players as that is something Munster have struggled with.

The Irish teams have shown a distinct domination over the HEC in recent years, similar to English success in the earlier 00's with Tigers, Wasps and Saints. It will be interesting to see if this is a cycle or whether there is constant and whether the Irish national team will continue to under perform.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching

It is only the correct number of teams whilst the 4 teams continue to provide Ireland with the required number of players in each position. Whilst the foreign signings have often been inspirations for their clubs they have been an error for the international team. The signings of foreign tightheads in particular with only Ross really being of international quality and he was developed abroad. Would a more expansive Irish league give young Irish players more chances and an earlier chance to develop rather than just guarenteeing 3 of the 4 teams good strength in depth with players waiting until their mid 20s to establish themselves?

I'm not quite sure it is. This was our team in the ERC quarter finals.

Wian du Preez - 29
Mike Sherry - 23
BJ Botha - 32

Donnacha Ryan - 28
Paul O'Connell - 32

Peter O'Mahony - 22
Tommy O'Donnell - 24
James Coughlan - 31

Conor Murray - 22
Ronan O'Gara - 35

Simon Zebo - 22
Lifeimi Mafi - 29
Keith Earls - 24
Denis Hurley - 27
Felix Jones - 24

That is 11 players under the age of 30. Half the team are under the age of 25. The Academy team has been in 2 of the last 3 B&I Finals and is the current champions.

I don't think old players are a concern apart from Ronan O'Gara.

by Artful_Dodger Mon 30 Apr 2012, 4:58 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Munster had their group of legends a team that really was great and they have largely stuck with them, some younger guys are coming through and giving them a boost but it is an aging squad. Leinster are now in a similar position, the current team is brilliant but there is a core of players that are certainly not getting any younger and it will be interesting to see how the bring in the next wave of players as that is something Munster have struggled with.

The Irish teams have shown a distinct domination over the HEC in recent years, similar to English success in the earlier 00's with Tigers, Wasps and Saints. It will be interesting to see if this is a cycle or whether there is constant and whether the Irish national team will continue to under perform.

He points to the provinces being ahead when it comes grass roots rugby, foreign signings, the correct number of teams (4) and coaching

It is only the correct number of teams whilst the 4 teams continue to provide Ireland with the required number of players in each position. Whilst the foreign signings have often been inspirations for their clubs they have been an error for the international team. The signings of foreign tightheads in particular with only Ross really being of international quality and he was developed abroad. Would a more expansive Irish league give young Irish players more chances and an earlier chance to develop rather than just guarenteeing 3 of the 4 teams good strength in depth with players waiting until their mid 20s to establish themselves?

Firstly, I don't think Leinster are going to encounter the same problems as Munster with an aging squad as they have the best academy in Europe. Healy, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Heaslip, O'Brien, Madigan, Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden - none of these guys are close to the end of their careers so I think you are way off saying that Leinster are in a similar position to Munster - the only big names they are going to lose to age are O'Driscoll and Cullen. The core of the Leinster team is certainly not all going to need replacing in one transition - the sort of transition Munster are now in, which by the way is nowhere near as big a transition as you are making out. I have no doubt Munster will still continue to be a top team in Europe over the next few seasons.

With regard to players not establishing themselves until mid 20's - we are getting better at that, for example 20 year old Paddy Jackson starting a HC semi final for Ulster on saturday.

by SecretFly Mon 30 Apr 2012, 6:23 pm

You can either say Irish Provinces sign a small number of brilliant players....................... hmmmmm, aren't we so very good at that one and why don't some of the selectors pick good Lotto numbers too. (Meaning I'm not buying that so much) - OR - we have a better track record of inciting foreign players to buy into the ideals and ambitions of our Provinces.

England actually navel gazes more than we do in the sense that during their AP season their players and their competition and their games and their scorelines are all the best in Europe. Most dynamic, most hard hitting, most aggressive, toughest, strongest. The whole pazooka.

It's only when they go into HC that they realise the standards in AP are often lacking, the intensity isn't often enough. They only then look outside their own product and begin to ask questions about standards. But as soon as a new season begins it's back to the navel gazing and the best club rugby competition in the world.

Our Provinces tell our foreigners - there's two ways of doing this. Either come for the money and cruise through the Pro12 on auto-pilot or come for the competition that means more to us than Gold itself. This is the toughest competition in club rugby and if you're with us in mind and body (and we'll demand it!) then you'll have a real slice at money AND glory.

You can't learn from Irish Provinces if you're blind to Irish Provincial priorities. Bradley brought an Irish sensibility to Edinburgh's season. He had a priority and used his resources accordingly. Yes, English sides have different contraints but they are still masters of how they choose to organise their league to better suit an attack on HC.

by Intotouch Mon 30 Apr 2012, 8:17 pm

It's too soon to say that Ireland got the recipe right and the others need to catch up.

Things are in flux in France at the moment with sides rushing to meet the quota and the salary cap. This quota will force teams to invest more in academies and talented youth but for now it seems there aren't enough talented French trained players to go around.

This is a fairly young competition. For a while English teams dominated. The French had an all French final not long ago and now the Irish teams have been doing well. Leinster were a little bit lucky yesterday. In a few years maybe it will be the Welsh sides that will be dominating. Let's just wait and see how things go over the next ten years.

by mankiaow Tue 01 May 2012, 5:59 am

Read the article and agreed with most of it. There are any number of reasons that Irish provinces are successful, many of them well documented here on numerous occasions.

But most of the comments were the usual drivel about Irish teams playing the referee, lots of foreign players, the provincial system being there since the dinosaurs, all the best players concentrated into a few teams. What else? Oh yes, Isa Nacewa, that one man HC crusader doing it all practically on his own. It's just not fair. All this mainly from Edinbugh fans whose team is coached by a product of the Irish system and who has brought them to their first HC semi-final (Ulster were better, by the way).

And here we have someone who has obviously not done his homework commenting that the Leinster team is ageing, foreign tightheads to blame for dearth of talent in that position and it's won't last because everything is cyclical.

And finally, Welsh provinces will dominate in the future - good luck with that.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 7:40 am

I agree with it to some point, lets be honest here, the Irish Provence's would not be half as successful without their foreign signings, but that could be said of most teams, but lets not take anything away from the very good Irish players like Kearney, O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Ferris and the rest. But, you cannot deny that in Ireland they have a very special system to not sign substandard NIQ player anymore, and with this they create very competitive Provence's. Is this to the determent of the national side, at the moment you could argue yes, as Ireland compared to their regions are underachieving. I know I am going to get lambasted by the Irish for saying this and they are all going to tell me that I do not know what I am talking about or I do not know anything about Irish rugby. Most of the Irish fans on here put all the blame on Declan Kidney, but I think it is unfair, he won the grand slam with the same players as Eddie O'Sullivan had so that must mean something. What I will say is that the NIQ players the Irish regions have are probably the best players for their respective position in Europe, definitely in Ireland and these players make a real difference. Although Kearney, O'Driscoll, Sexton, O'Brien and other Irish players I have forgotten, showed their class out in Claremont, how different could it have been if they did not have Van Der Mewe on the bench to come on ? He really did make a difference and stopped your scrum splintering and this is the point I am getting at, it is not a bad thing, so please do not go mad with me. thumbsup

As for the Welsh regions dominating, well, we have a heck of a lot of hard work to do before that happens. Laugh

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 8:34 am

No, no no.......you are absolutely wrong, Lord............................

I (as an Irish person) do not think you don't know what you're talking about Wink

You have opinions and therefore they're legitimate opinions. Irish people and external observers may disagree on things but you're more than entitled to your opinions nonetheless Smile

Now for my divergent view though - and you did know it was coming.

You already alluded to it yourself actually but it needs repeating.

Irish sides benefit from foreign signings - they do. We all agree on that one. We like some of them that have passed through, thought the world of others and treat a select few as gods. (But they have to prove themselves to us first, and we are hard task-masters in that department - we just don't bow because they come from the great SH with gifts to share with us potato boys.) So Irish sides benefit - a certainty.

BUT - as I say you alluded to - other sides also rely on their foreign hordes, and often to a much greater extent. Look at Saracens, look at Leicester, look at Clermont itself.

Leinster had five (in their 22 total) foreign players - and that's including Boss (Irish International) and Strauss (who is now I think Irish Qualified). Five foreigners in their 22. Clermont had I think 10 in their 22.

So Ireland's not so purely Irish Leinster side take on the great 'French' hope Clermont? I ask myself at such times: if Leinster were forced to dispense with their foreign players and their opponents in HC (and indeed all sides in HC competition) were forced to do likewise, would Irish provinces still compete? I think their chances would not only stay the same but would actually improve dramatically each year. Mostly Irish sides (Provinces) generally have to fight their way through a virtual Smörgåsbord of International players from Argentina, Portugal, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, England, Wales, Canada, France, Scotland and a few more to get through to HC quarter finals and then further to the final.

Irish players don't need to hunkerslide into their dressing rooms flushed with the shame of relying a little on foreign stock to get them past their specific limitations in certain areas.... all team competing in professional rugby in Europe do so, and do so in a less embarrassed way than Irish sides are generally made to feel about it's 'foreign' contingent.

The real sign for me that people pick and choose what to see is in the continuing idea that these Irish players (the ones that hang around when the foreigners come and go), the ones that are now looking for their 3rd HC win in four years, these players were still marketed as the lesser players to the 'superstars' that make up Clermont. Well, Clermont have won Top 14 once in their history - and have not yet won HC. The real stars of European rugby were in Blue - and many of them were Irish.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 8:52 am

secretfly, I assume, that you, like me, watch as much rugby as you can possibly fit into your spare time. So please, do not take this the wrong way, but I know what I see with my own eyes, and that is the NIQ players that you have at your provences are always putting in stand out performances and for you to dismiss this is very disrespectful of these players, yes, I acknowledge the ability of the Irish players but the NIQ players at your provences do make a difference, the South Africans at Ulster, Nacewa, Van Der Mewe, Strauss at Leinster, Botha, Mafi at Munster these players are the best in there positions in Ireland and without them your provences would be worst without them. I also acknowledge that in Ireland you do not have as many foreigners but to say that you would be better without them is laughable, you cannot tell me honestly that Leinster are better with Healey in the front row than Van Der Mewe can you ?

by **rodders** Tue 01 May 2012, 8:54 am

Well said Secretfly.

by **rodders** Tue 01 May 2012, 8:59 am

LordDowlais wrote: I acknowledge the ability of the Irish players but the NIQ players at your provences do make a difference

Of course they make a difference thats why we sign them.

You probably noticed that Clermonts best performances at the weekend came from a Scot, a Georgian and a kiwi too?

Mafi is not the best 12 in Ireland, nor is Strauss, who is IQ anyways, the best hooker.

Leinster are better with Healey at 1, that's why he's the starting LH.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 9:00 am

rodders wrote: Well said Secretfly.

Rodders, if you think the same as secretfly about your NIQ players then you are kidding yourself. thumbsup

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 9:05 am

rodders wrote:
LordDowlais wrote: I acknowledge the ability of the Irish players but the NIQ players at your provences do make a difference

Of course they make a difference thats why we sign them.

You probably noticed that Clermonts best performances at the weekend came from a Scot, a Georgian and a kiwi too?

Mafi is not the best 12 in Ireland, nor is Strauss, who is IQ anyways, the best hooker.

Leinster are better with Healey at 1, that's why he's the starting LH.

Also, why are you all going on about Claremont's foreigners ? This is about the Irish provences.

by **rodders** Tue 01 May 2012, 9:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
rodders wrote: Well said Secretfly.

Rodders, if you think the same as secretfly about your NIQ players then you are kidding yourself.

I think there are some fantastic NIQ players in Ireland right now, most notably: Thorn, Nacewa, Pienaar, Botha, Howlett, Terblanche, Wannenburg, Afoa and Muller.

These guys are all top, top quality players who have contributed massively to the success of the 3 main provinces. They are amongst the best players in the country.

I do not believe that these players explain the discrepency in performance between the provinces and the National side.

Ireland have more than enough talent and quality to be much more competitive than we have been in the past 3 seasons.

I believe that the bigger problem is that the IRFU have a conservative, politically and financially driven selection policy and that the national side is poorly coached and prepared in comparison to the provinces.

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 9:10 am

Leinster are as good as anyone else in Europe even without a single NIQ in the team.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 9:12 am

geoff998rugby wrote:Leinster are as good as anyone else in Europe even without a single NIQ in the team.

Yeah right oh, with the Irish front row you have, you would get shunted all around the park. thumbsup

You probably have the best backs in Europe though. thumbsup

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 9:14 am

LordDowlais wrote:secretfly, I assume, that you, like me, watch as much rugby as you can possibly fit into your spare time. So please, do not take this the wrong way, but I know what I see with my own eyes, and that is the NIQ players that you have at your provences are always putting in stand out performances and for you to dismiss this is very disrespectful of these players, yes, I acknowledge the ability of the Irish players but the NIQ players at your provences do make a difference, the South Africans at Ulster, Nacewa, Van Der Mewe, Strauss at Leinster, Botha, Mafi at Munster these players are the best in there positions in Ireland and without them your provences would be worst without them. I also acknowledge that in Ireland you do not have as many foreigners but to say that you would be better without them is laughable, you cannot tell me honestly that Leinster are better with Healey in the front row than Van Der Mewe can you ?

You totally misread again. Totally misread - to perfect your theory.

So I'll do it slower for you. I said - pause for you to take that in - I Said that if the scenario was that Leinster was forced to rely on Irish players completely AND all HC sides were forced to do likewise - then in that scenario I DO believe that Leinster would both hold it's own with the best French sides had to offer in purely French players and the best English sides had to offer in purely English players - it would not only hold its own with such sides but I believe they would actually then benefit even more from the lack of 'depth' in these French sides that rely Heavily on imports to bolster their HC runs.

You get all that? Or do you want me to repeat it?

Plus - you do a great disservice to Leinster's Irish stars who I say are going for their 3rd Heineken Cup in four years, in the face of the foreign horded English and French sides, by suggesting they need Nacewa or Van Der Mewe to compete. No they don't - they use those players effectively, and might I say, Leinster itself, and it's philosophy and conditioning and training, help these players achieve more than they might have acheived at other places. Look to Nacewa for proof on that one. Leinster is the common denominator Lord, not Nacewa, not Thorn, not Hines, not Contepomi, not Rocky Elsom - Leinster is the constant, and that constant is largely Irish.

The Irish Leinster players are not 'good' - they have credentials in Europe now to claim Greatness. You might not like to hear that word mentioned but I won't shirk it - it's based on evidence and the disservice is that you fail to acknowledge it. Go look up all time HC records - you'll see quite a number of Irish players there. I repeat, the real stars of European club rugby.

by mankiaow Tue 01 May 2012, 9:14 am

Province

by red_stag Tue 01 May 2012, 9:17 am

Personally I think that

- Provinces have excellent foreign players who bring a lot to their teams.
- Teams from other countries also have excellent foreign players who bring a lot of their teams.

Not a hope in hell that people like Pedrie Wannenburg, Heinke van der Merwe and Lifeimi Mafi are the main reason for Irish success.

They certainly give us an advantage but there is a lot more too it than that and it is the most overly simplistic way of looking at it.

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 9:19 am

red_stag wrote: Wian du Preez - 29
Mike Sherry - 23
BJ Botha - 32

Donnacha Ryan - 28
Paul O'Connell - 32

Peter O'Mahony - 22
Tommy O'Donnell - 24
James Coughlan - 31

Conor Murray - 22
Ronan O'Gara - 35

Simon Zebo - 22
Lifeimi Mafi - 29
Keith Earls - 24
Denis Hurley - 27
Felix Jones - 24

That is 11 players under the age of 30. Half the team are under the age of 25. The Academy team has been in 2 of the last 3 B&I Finals and is the current champions.

I don't think old players are a concern apart from Ronan O'Gara.

Actually Stage there is a problem there which a southern journalist picked up on recently - the absence of quality in the 25 to 30 age group of IQ players. There are only 2 in that list Ryan and Hurley. Of those onl;y Ryan fits the profile of experience and quality required.

When POC, ROG retire Munster will lack expereinced old heads in their team who are IQ.
Its an elephant in the room.

Ulster by contrast have 6/7 in that age group who will take over the mantle when the foreigners go.
Paddy Wallace, Tom Court and Roger Wilson apart we have no IQ players over 30 to worry about.

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 9:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Leinster are as good as anyone else in Europe even without a single NIQ in the team.

Yeah right oh, with the Irish front row you have, you would get shunted all around the park. You probably have the best backs in Europe though.

That would be the Irish front row that won in France against one of the top 2 sides in France yesterday thumbsup

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 9:23 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:secretfly, I assume, that you, like me, watch as much rugby as you can possibly fit into your spare time. So please, do not take this the wrong way, but I know what I see with my own eyes, and that is the NIQ players that you have at your provences are always putting in stand out performances and for you to dismiss this is very disrespectful of these players, yes, I acknowledge the ability of the Irish players but the NIQ players at your provences do make a difference, the South Africans at Ulster, Nacewa, Van Der Mewe, Strauss at Leinster, Botha, Mafi at Munster these players are the best in there positions in Ireland and without them your provences would be worst without them. I also acknowledge that in Ireland you do not have as many foreigners but to say that you would be better without them is laughable, you cannot tell me honestly that Leinster are better with Healey in the front row than Van Der Mewe can you ?

You totally misread again. Totally misread - to perfect your theory.

So I'll do it slower for you. I said - pause for you to take that in - I Said that if the scenario was that Leinster was forced to rely on Irish players completely AND all HC sides were forced to do likewise - then in that scenario I DO believe that Leinster would both hold it's own with the best French sides had to offer in purely French players and the best English sides had to offer in purely English players - it would not only hold its own with such sides but I believe they would actually then benefit even more from the lack of 'depth' in these French sides that rely Heavily on imports to bolster their HC runs.

You get all that? Or do you want me to repeat it?

Plus - you do a great disservice to Leinster's Irish stars who I say are going for their 3rd Heineken Cup in four years, in the face of the foreign horded English and French sides, by suggesting they need Nacewa or Van Der Mewe to compete. No they don't - they use those players effectively, and might I say, Leinster itself, and it's philosophy and conditioning and training, help these players achieve more than they might have acheived at other places. Look to Nacewa for proof on that one. Leinster is the common denominator Lord, not Nacewa, not Thorn, not Hines, not Contepomi, not Rocky Elsom - Leinster is the constant, and that constant is largely Irish.

The Irish Leinster players are not 'good' - they have credentials in Europe now to claim Greatness. You might not like to hear that word mentioned but I won't shirk it - it's based on evidence and the disservice is that you fail to acknowledge it. Go look up all time HC records - you'll see quite a number of Irish players there. I repeat, the real stars of European club rugby.

Please do not patronise me secretfly, I have already said that I acknowledge how good the Irish players are,

Also you did not mention in one iota that you were referring to everyone not having players outside their own nationality, you are just bliknered in the fact that all the Irish players are great and the NIQ players are just a bit of icing on the cake to go on top of you imortal Irish players. If this was the fact then you weould not have any NIQ players starting before the Irish one's. Also I know what I watch and your Irish front row is not as good as the NIQ players that can take there place, or do you choose not to watch the scrums and just watch the open play of rugby ? The players that I would consider great for Leinster, are Kearney, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Sexton, Heaslip, SOB, the rest are good but without the NIQ players listed on other posts you would not be anywhere near as sucsessful. thumbsup

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 9:24 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Leinster are as good as anyone else in Europe even without a single NIQ in the team.

Yeah right oh, with the Irish front row you have, you would get shunted all around the park. You probably have the best backs in Europe though.

That would be the Irish front row that won in France against one of the top 2 sides in France yesterday

Yeah, after Healey went off. thumbsup

by red_stag Tue 01 May 2012, 9:24 am

Geoff, it will mean a slight drop in Munsters quality yes but apart from O'Gara it doesnt bother me. We have a mix of older and younger players and I think we are seeing continued evolution to the Munster team.

by **rodders** Tue 01 May 2012, 9:36 am

red_stag wrote:
They certainly give us an advantage but there is a lot more too it than that and it is the most overly simplistic way of looking at it.

I don't even think they give us an advantage stag, just level the playing field against French sides who can sign the likes of Sivavatu, Hines etc.

If anything we are at a disadvantage because of the IRFU rules regarding imports. For example Hines would still be at Leinster and Wannenburg wouldn't be leaving Ulster but for the IRFU only allowing 1 year contract extensions.

If the Welsh Regions or English clubs can't afford ot sign or retain comparable quality then that is their problem. Certainly that wasn't always the case.

The bottom line is we have an abundance of indiginious talent in most positions and where we do sign overseas players only very top players will suffice, as would be the case in any top clubs with serious ambitions of silverware.

The provinces are getting things spot on, it's the National set up that isn't up to scratch.

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 9:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Please do not patronise me secretfly, you did not mention in one iota that you were referring to everyone not having players outside their own nationality, you are just bliknered in the fact that all the Irish players are great and the NIQ players are just a bit of icing on the cake to go on top of you imortal Irish players.

Oh yes I did. So go re-read my initial comment on that one and you'll find it. If not, I can copy and paste it for you.

I constantly praise Nacewa in hefty terms on these boards. I adored Howlett when he was playing for Munster (and hoping to see him renew the acquaintence) and Pienaar in Ulster, well just looking at how he smiles when surrounded by the Ulster fans lets you know how he feels about his decision to come to Ireland and head to Ulster. I constantly acknowledge our foreign players. I've even suggested on more than one occasion that the troubled Henson might find a real and effective rugby rebirth on this side of the Irish sea with perhaps Munster (given that he's already tried England and France).

But you Lord - you continually emhasise the 'external' element to Irish provincial success...and I'll continue to knock back such arguments because they are flawed, they lack any attention to the continuing fact of Irish dominance as the 'great' foreigners come and go; they constantly sidestep the issue of why English and French sides don't effectively benefit from their 'external greats' when they employ more of them. You create arguments to belittle the 'Irish' factor but the Irish factor remains the unfortunate constant that you can't argue away.

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 9:47 am

Stag, did you hear just when Munster will announce new coach? Or maybe I'm severely misinformed and they already have?!

I heard it will be early this week. Wednesday won't be early anymore.

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 9:49 am

I do find it funny that the Irish teams are knocked about the number of NIQ players by supporters of teams with far higher numbers of non nationals.

by GavinDragon Tue 01 May 2012, 9:53 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Please do not patronise me secretfly, you did not mention in one iota that you were referring to everyone not having players outside their own nationality, you are just bliknered in the fact that all the Irish players are great and the NIQ players are just a bit of icing on the cake to go on top of you imortal Irish players.

Oh yes I did. So go re-read my initial comment on that one and you'll find it. If not, I can copy and paste it for you.

I constantly praise Nacewa in hefty terms on these boards. I adored Howlett when he was playing for Munster (and hoping to see him renew the acquaintence) and Pienaar in Ulster, well just looking at how he smiles when surrounded by the Ulster fans lets you know how he feels about his decision to come to Ireland and head to Ulster. I constantly acknowledge our foreign players. I've even suggested on more than one occasion that the troubled Henson might find a real and effective rugby rebirth on this side of the Irish sea with perhaps Munster (given that he's already tried England and France).

But you Lord - you continually emhasise the 'external' element to Irish provincial success...and I'll continue to knock back such arguments because they are flawed, they lack any attention to the continuing fact of Irish dominance as the 'great' foreigners come and go; they constantly sidestep the issue of why English and French sides don't effectively benefit from their 'external greats' when they employ more of them. You create arguments to belittle the 'Irish' factor but the Irish factor remains the unfortunate constant that you can't argue away.

im sorry fly but i agree with what dowlais is saying, i agree that if no h-cup team was allowed foreign players then leinster and munster would still be up there (and to be fair the french would suffer more in this case) however the way iinterpreted what dowlais was saying is that the foreign players in your teams are very much go-to men and do such an important job (this is particularly the case in Ulster with pienar). The inclusion of these players at in your teams may hamper the national side when they havent go a pienar or a nacewa or a botha to rely on. It is not too disimilar to wales post 08 GS, we had successful (by regional standards) runs in the H-cup with blues and ospreys, but the main players in those sides were the likes of rush, collins, holah bowe etc, so when it came to int rugby the welsh boys had to step up and were found wanting. Perhaps the argument is not a perfect fit but it must be a factor in why the provinces cannot translate success to the national side

by red_stag Tue 01 May 2012, 9:57 am

Secret, I haven't heard when the announcement will be made.

The likely candidates appear to be:

- Rob Penney

- Tana Umaga

- Anthony Foley (apparently with Umaga as backs coach)

by geoff998rugby Tue 01 May 2012, 9:57 am

Ireland problem at national level is not, with the possible exception of TH, anything to do with NIQ in our game.

We have no NIQ 10's at the 3 senior provinces for example.
TH does need addressing but as I say that is the 1 exception.

It is a structural and coaching issue.
We are failing to give rising talent its chance and 1 or 2 players are still included who should be retired
The NIQ players help make our players better players by coaching and leading by example.

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 9:58 am

geoff998rugby wrote:I do find it funny that the Irish teams are knocked about the number of NIQ players by supporters of teams with far higher numbers of non nationals.

That's my point continually, Geoff. I remember a HC game where Leinster were up against Leicester. I think I recall Leinster's 'foreigners' being mentioned on Sky and yet, on the day, Leicester had about four or five more foreigners than Leinster in the 22 (including their Captain Wink

) But no, the fiction was that this was the mighty old English club putting it up to a rich superclub with foreigners propping up their best bits.

I laugh too - and that's why I will continue to point out the paradox to those who want to throw the missiles our way.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 10:00 am

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Please do not patronise me secretfly, you did not mention in one iota that you were referring to everyone not having players outside their own nationality, you are just bliknered in the fact that all the Irish players are great and the NIQ players are just a bit of icing on the cake to go on top of you imortal Irish players.

Oh yes I did. So go re-read my initial comment on that one and you'll find it. If not, I can copy and paste it for you.

I constantly praise Nacewa in hefty terms on these boards. I adored Howlett when he was playing for Munster (and hoping to see him renew the acquaintence) and Pienaar in Ulster, well just looking at how he smiles when surrounded by the Ulster fans lets you know how he feels about his decision to come to Ireland and head to Ulster. I constantly acknowledge our foreign players. I've even suggested on more than one occasion that the troubled Henson might find a real and effective rugby rebirth on this side of the Irish sea with perhaps Munster (given that he's already tried England and France).

But you Lord - you continually emhasise the 'external' element to Irish provincial success...and I'll continue to knock back such arguments because they are flawed, they lack any attention to the continuing fact of Irish dominance as the 'great' foreigners come and go; they constantly sidestep the issue of why English and French sides don't effectively benefit from their 'external greats' when they employ more of them. You create arguments to belittle the 'Irish' factor but the Irish factor remains the unfortunate constant that you can't argue away.

I have read it again, and still I cannot find a metion of it, so can you please copy and paste it for me, without any editing. thumbsup

by GavinDragon Tue 01 May 2012, 10:00 am

fair enough geoff just giving a potential view on it, im not saying your wrong was just putting across one side of the argument,

it does depress me on the whole though thst NH rugby needs to be 'lead' by the SH, and thats not a dig at Ireland the whole of europe takes this notion that if a player speaks with an antipodean accent they must be rugby gods!

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 10:01 am

geoff998rugby wrote:I do find it funny that the Irish teams are knocked about the number of NIQ players by supporters of teams with far higher numbers of non nationals.

When have I knocked them ? I am actually praising them. Doh

by GavinDragon Tue 01 May 2012, 10:02 am

tbf i cant see anyone knocking them, just pointing out how it could be having a detrimental effect on your national side

by **rodders** Tue 01 May 2012, 10:05 am

GavinDragon wrote:it does depress me on the whole though thst NH rugby needs to be 'lead' by the SH, and thats not a dig at Ireland the whole of europe takes this notion that if a player speaks with an antipodean accent they must be rugby gods!

I presume then you are up in arms about Wales having a Kiwi coach or is it just when Ireland have a SH influence in their sides that there is a problem?

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 10:06 am

GavinDragon wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Please do not patronise me secretfly, you did not mention in one iota that you were referring to everyone not having players outside their own nationality, you are just bliknered in the fact that all the Irish players are great and the NIQ players are just a bit of icing on the cake to go on top of you imortal Irish players.

Oh yes I did. So go re-read my initial comment on that one and you'll find it. If not, I can copy and paste it for you.

I constantly praise Nacewa in hefty terms on these boards. I adored Howlett when he was playing for Munster (and hoping to see him renew the acquaintence) and Pienaar in Ulster, well just looking at how he smiles when surrounded by the Ulster fans lets you know how he feels about his decision to come to Ireland and head to Ulster. I constantly acknowledge our foreign players. I've even suggested on more than one occasion that the troubled Henson might find a real and effective rugby rebirth on this side of the Irish sea with perhaps Munster (given that he's already tried England and France).

But you Lord - you continually emhasise the 'external' element to Irish provincial success...and I'll continue to knock back such arguments because they are flawed, they lack any attention to the continuing fact of Irish dominance as the 'great' foreigners come and go; they constantly sidestep the issue of why English and French sides don't effectively benefit from their 'external greats' when they employ more of them. You create arguments to belittle the 'Irish' factor but the Irish factor remains the unfortunate constant that you can't argue away.

im sorry fly but i agree with what dowlais is saying, i agree that if no h-cup team was allowed foreign players then leinster and munster would still be up there (and to be fair the french would suffer more in this case) however the way iinterpreted what dowlais was saying is that the foreign players in your teams are very much go-to men and do such an important job (this is particularly the case in Ulster with pienar). The inclusion of these players at in your teams may hamper the national side when they havent go a pienar or a nacewa or a botha to rely on. It is not too disimilar to wales post 08 GS, we had successful (by regional standards) runs in the H-cup with blues and ospreys, but the main players in those sides were the likes of rush, collins, holah bowe etc, so when it came to int rugby the welsh boys had to step up and were found wanting. Perhaps the argument is not a perfect fit but it must be a factor in why the provinces cannot translate success to the national side

Thank you Gavin, at least there is somebody who is getting what I am trying to say. Perhaps it needs another outsider looking in to try and show people what we are all seeing. Although I do agree that the senior Irish management are not giving enough young players a chance at international level. Hug

by GavinDragon Tue 01 May 2012, 10:08 am

if i had it my way rodders, the regions would be putting out 4 teams of xv welsh players each week with welshmen in charge of them and of course a welshman in charge of the national side, but we welsh just seem to have to have a foreigner in charge to have any success, maybe it s our tribalistic nature Doh

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 10:09 am

GavinDragon wrote:
im sorry fly but i agree with what dowlais is saying, i agree that if no h-cup team was allowed foreign players then leinster and munster would still be up there (and to be fair the french would suffer more in this case) however the way iinterpreted what dowlais was saying is that the foreign players in your teams are very much go-to men and do such an important job (this is particularly the case in Ulster with pienar). The inclusion of these players at in your teams may hamper the national side when they havent go a pienar or a nacewa or a botha to rely on. It is not too disimilar to wales post 08 GS, we had successful (by regional standards) runs in the H-cup with blues and ospreys, but the main players in those sides were the likes of rush, collins, holah bowe etc, so when it came to int rugby the welsh boys had to step up and were found wanting. Perhaps the argument is not a perfect fit but it must be a factor in why the provinces cannot translate success to the national side

But my point continues to be that English and French clubs ALSO use their highly paid foreign imports as go-to men, or else they wouldn't pay for them or have them playing on main playing days (that's the taunt I got from Lord. Nacewa is better than the next guy down becuase he's playing. Of course he is. Nacewa is a great player - and other foreign imports are too.) But Leinster, Munster and Ulster are NOT on a level playing field as regards imports and the use of them. They are operating at sub-standard levels of import involvement when you look at top sides in England and France. So what becomes the deal then? How does one define Irish Provincial success in Europe then?

I'm suggesting the 'Irish' element is a substantial one - and I'm not being precious in saying that - I'm looking at the evidence stacked and coming to a courtroom specific conclusion. Schmidt himself said about Sexton - "the legend grows". He called the move that won the game - Kearney did the cool as a cucumber drop-goal. Irish guys won the game - Nacewa is still God though Wink

by mankiaow Tue 01 May 2012, 10:13 am

"the rest are good but without the NIQ players listed on other posts you would not be anywhere near as sucsessful"

Now that is just not true, regardless of whether you put a winkie smiley on it or not.

The fact is that the Irish provinces are only going to get better for a lot more reasons than a few foreigners. The longer other clubs and regions keep scratching their heads trying to work it out, the better, as far as we are concerned.

The John Beattie article says that other clubs should learn from the sucsessful (sic) Irish teams. If you're saying that it's down to foreigners then off you go and sign some players from the SH. But I think you've tried that already.

So what you are suggesting just does not hold water. Your teams are a perfect example of that.

by LordDowlais Tue 01 May 2012, 10:13 am

Secretfly, when have I said anything like that ? All I was pointing out was that the NIQ players at the provinces make a big difference, you told me weather they were there or not Leinster would still win the HC. As Gavin has perhaps explained better than myself, some of the NIQ are your goto men, you do not have them for Ireland and that is perhaps you are found wanting at international level. thumbsup

by GavinDragon Tue 01 May 2012, 10:16 am

SecretFly wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
im sorry fly but i agree with what dowlais is saying, i agree that if no h-cup team was allowed foreign players then leinster and munster would still be up there (and to be fair the french would suffer more in this case) however the way iinterpreted what dowlais was saying is that the foreign players in your teams are very much go-to men and do such an important job (this is particularly the case in Ulster with pienar). The inclusion of these players at in your teams may hamper the national side when they havent go a pienar or a nacewa or a botha to rely on. It is not too disimilar to wales post 08 GS, we had successful (by regional standards) runs in the H-cup with blues and ospreys, but the main players in those sides were the likes of rush, collins, holah bowe etc, so when it came to int rugby the welsh boys had to step up and were found wanting. Perhaps the argument is not a perfect fit but it must be a factor in why the provinces cannot translate success to the national side

But my point continues to be that English and French clubs ALSO use their highly paid foreign imports as go-to men, or else they wouldn't pay for them or have them playing on main playing days (that's the taunt I got from Lord. Nacewa is better than the next guy down becuase he's playing. Of course he is. Nacewa is a great player - and other foreign imports are too.) But Leinster, Munster and Ulster are NOT on a level playing field as regards imports and the use of them. They are operating at sub-standard levels of import involvement when you look at top sides in England and France. So what becomes the deal then? How does one define Irish Provincial success in Europe then?

I'm suggesting the 'Irish' element is a substantial one - and I'm not being precious in saying that - I'm looking at the evidence stacked and coming to a courtroom specific conclusion. Schmidt himself said about Sexton - "the legend grows". He called the move that won the game - Kearney did the cool as a cucumber drop-goal. Irish guys won the game - Nacewa is still God though

Yes and we are both totally agreeing with you, i think what me and dowlais are saying is while the irish contingent are probably the most important factor in the success of the provinces, however the role certain foreigners are playing in the teams could be affecting the national side. Thats all.

I certainly didnt mean what i said as a slur against what is a brlliantly successful set up in ireland, merely pointing out a potential implication of the said set-up. And as for your point about england and france, again your totally right they do import heavily, but they have both the economic backing and the population numbers to support a healthy domestic youth set up and have a foreign stars (although i do question how long france can continue with the current model of recruitment, both financially and in playing terms, where are the next generation of frenchmen going to play with foreigners blcoking their positions.

Again i dont think either me or dowlais were criticising the set up in ireland merely pointing out an effect

by SecretFly Tue 01 May 2012, 10:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
I have read it again, and still I cannot find a metion of it, so can you please copy and paste it for me, without any editing.

You're bloomin' lazy, Lord - that's what you are. Admit it, you didn't even go back up to the post to try to find it! Wink

Anyway, I promised I'd paste it for you then (if you got lazy) so here it is. The interesting bit is in Bold, to be sure to be sure.

BUT - as I say you alluded to - other sides also rely on their foreign hordes, and often to a much greater extent. Look at Saracens, look at Leicester, look at Clermont itself.

Leinster had five (in their 22 total) foreign players - and that's including Boss (Irish International) and Strauss (who is now I think Irish Qualified). Five foreigners in their 22. Clermont had I think 10 in their 22.

So Ireland's not so purely Irish Leinster side take on the great 'French' hope Clermont? I ask myself at such times: if Leinster were forced to dispense with their foreign players and their opponents in HC (and indeed all sides in HC competition) were forced to do likewise, would Irish provinces still compete? I think their chances would not only stay the same but would actually improve dramatically each year. Mostly Irish sides (Provinces) generally have to fight their way through a virtual Smörgåsbord of International players from Argentina, Portugal, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, England, Wales, Canada, France, Scotland and a few more to get through to HC quarter finals and then further to the final.

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