Lewis vs Jones Jr

Watched Lennox vs Vitali again the other day, with all the HBO build up, some great stuff from the Klitschko brothers - "I am Wladimir" - "No I am Wladimir, you are Vitali" etc etc.

Anyway, nobody gave Vitali a chance, it was a foregone conclusion that Lewis would pancake him, and they were already discussing Lennox's next fight. At the time, Roy Jones had just taken the WBA strap from John Ruiz, and a match-up between Lewis and Jones was being seriously considered.

Does anyone think that Jones had even half a chance of beating Lewis?

None whatsoever Union, Lewis would absolutely slaughter him, and that is coming from someone far from as sold on Lewis as many are on here. However what I did hear is in the wake of Jones turning Ruiz over he had fights lined up with Holyfield and Tyson, given where both of them were in their respective careers at the time those are fights which seem eminently more winnable for Jones.

No chance whatsoever really. Would be surprised if he took the fight on to be honest.

I might have given him a shout against faded versions of Tyson or Holyfield at that time but Lewis was just a bridge too far.

Against the version of Lewis that Vitali fought I would give Jones the nod. Jones still had very good movement and Lewis had slowed considerably. Vitali caught him with ease but never had the movement to get out the way of what was coming back. Jones doesn't have that problem.

Unless Jones gets caught with the sort of uppercut that Vitali did which could have ripped a tree out of the ground then I see Jones winning on points.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Against the version of Lewis that Vitali fought I would give Jones the nod. Jones still had very good movement and Lewis had slowed considerably. Vitali caught him with ease but never had the movement to get out the way of what was coming back. Jones doesn't have that problem.

Unless Jones gets caught with the sort of uppercut that Vitali did which could have ripped a tree out of the ground then I see Jones winning on points.

Really? Its wasnt long after that Jones was being destroyed by Tarver and Johnson. Best case scenario for Jones would be a loss in the same veing as Haye/Klitschkos for me. But I would actually view the fight as a mismatch.

Lewis was woefully out of shape for Vitali though, he would surely have put the hours in for a Jones fight, and subsequently destroyed him.

Union... Union... Union City Blue

Given up on the Mariners mate?

Anyway, boxing... I would agree with Manos, about it looking like a mismatch.

As has been mentioned on here before though, Lewis' stock has risen since retirement and Jones' seems to have fallen with his refusal to retire. Maybe this has a bearing on people's view of this potential fight today, which could have seemed far more viable back when it could have happened. I'm not sure if this is affecting my thoughts right now but, as stated, I agree with Manos.

Il Gialloblu wrote: Union... Union... Union City Blue

Given up on the Mariners mate?

I'd never give up on my Mighty Mariners, just reflecting the mood of the nation mate...

Good luck in the play-offs by the way.

Sod.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Against the version of Lewis that Vitali fought I would give Jones the nod. Jones still had very good movement and Lewis had slowed considerably. Vitali caught him with ease but never had the movement to get out the way of what was coming back. Jones doesn't have that problem.

I rekon it would be an easy night for Lewis, too much power for Jones.

Union Cane wrote:

Il Gialloblu wrote: Union... Union... Union City Blue

Given up on the Mariners mate?

I'd never give up on my Mighty Mariners, just reflecting the mood of the nation mate...

Good luck in the play-offs by the way.

Sod.

Yep, fingers crossed. Cheers.

I think Jones would have to be careful that Lennox didn't accidentally step on him when they came to the centre of the ring for the referee's final instructions, for starters.

No way that Jones would have taken this bout, I feel, and even less chance of him winning it had it ever happened. Jones, quite naturally, lost a bit of speed up at Heavyweight (although at 193 lb against Ruiz he was little more than a very small Cruiserweight), so he wouldn't have danced rings around Lewis, and nor would Lewis have held any fear over Jones' power. Within a year of this fight being touted we saw that Jones' chin, by that stage, perhaps wasn't a cast-iron one in the face of heavy artillery, too.

Lewis by a heavy knockout inside of six or seven rounds every day of the week for me, and twice on a Sunday.

Lewis was in terrible shape for Vitali. His weight had risen since the second Holyfield fight. If Lewis came in good shape he wins but like I said his weight had risen considerably since the second Holyfield fight.

Vitali doesn't move much so Lewis got away with it. There is no way Jones is as easy for Lewis to hit as Vitali was. Jones still had good movement and defence.

jones would never have agreed to fight lewis.
lets face it, the only reason he went to heavyweight because he was given an easy opportunity to become world champion with the belt that Ruiz held.

he was never going to stick around against anyone else.

I'm another person who thinks that Lewis is overrated and see no sense (sorry Union) in the supposition that Lewis would have got in better shape for Jones than for Vitali. However, there can only be one winner here and fancy it would have been an early night for Lewis and visit to the hospital for Jones.

Even if Lewis was out of shape by 15-20lbs I still see him winning handily.

Ive never seen the additional weight as too much of a hinderance for Lewis fight against Vitali unless it meant he gassed late - which we will never know. But the added weight was actually hand given how physical the fight was and how often the two men leaned on each other. Lewis couldnt be manhandled by Vitali given how big he was.

I also think in Vitali you are talking about a genuine top heavyweight, certainly in the top twenty of all time in my view but probably higher in a head to head based sense. Jones would never have been nearly as formidable a heavyweight as that.

manos de piedra wrote:I also think in Vitali you are talking about a genuine top heavyweight, certainly in the top twenty of all time in my view but probably higher in a head to head based sense. Jones would never have been nearly as formidable a heavyweight as that.

He certainly wasn't thought of as that at the time though, George Foreman said that if Vitali beat Lewis he would come out of retirement (again) and take the titles off him!

Union Cane wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I also think in Vitali you are talking about a genuine top heavyweight, certainly in the top twenty of all time in my view but probably higher in a head to head based sense. Jones would never have been nearly as formidable a heavyweight as that.

He certainly wasn't thought of as that at the time though, George Foreman said that if Vitali beat Lewis he would come out of retirement (again) and take the titles off him!

Yeah he definately wasnt viewed that way back then but I think it subsequently transpired he was alot better than his reputation at the time was. My general point being that I dont think Lewis struggling with Vitali in that fight would have a huge bearing on a potential fight with Jones.

Jones had half a chance of beating lewis. But that half was half of nothing.

The reach alone (10" advantage) would be enough to completely dismiss a jones victory. Not to mention Lewis had an excellent jab and a thunderous right hand. Lewis easily winning by knockout.

Far too big, had jones won that fight against Lewis, he probably could have been called the greatest ever, IF he retired after it.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Far too big, had jones won that fight against Lewis, he probably could have been called the greatest ever, IF he retired after it.

Have to say, I find myself wishing that Jones had knocked it on the head after his Heavyweight venture more and more as time passes. Was never really a great fan of his as a youngster when he was in his pomp; Oscar, Holyfield, Barrera etc were 'my guys', so to speak, ahead of Roy at the time. But I do find his fall from grace a pretty sad one.

It seems impossible, given the huge acclaim he received during his glory years from most quarters, but I think he's in danger of becoming a tad underrated in certain others now. Unquestionably inside the top thirty of all-time, pound for pound, in my humble opinion. Perhaps higher if I gave it proper thought.

Still wouldn't have had a prayer against Lennox in 2003, mind you!

Lewis would hurt Jones just with his jab,total annihilation, first big punch Lewis lands ends the fight by big KO.

I honestly couldn't see Jones making it passed the first 3 rounds had this fight ever happened. Not unless Jones ran for the duration lol. Brutal KO to Lennox.

I find it hard to determine where Jones will end up in peoples ratings when hes retired. I think his fighting on will definately harm his legacy but not sure to what extent. Probably more than the likes of Leonard or Duran I think because he doesnt have the quality wins as those guys the benchmark himself against.

I think it would have been interesting to see where he would have been rated now had he retired after Tarver I and reclaimed the light heavyweight title when with hindsight he should have.

Definitely a puzzling one, Manos. The thing is, much as some will try to deny it now, at the time of his Heavyweight title win there was serious consideration being given to the idea that Jones could be the greatest since Robinson. Perhaps a little overblown, but still a good indication of just how highly regarded he was at the peak of his powers.

His star has obviously waned since then, and he's hardly helped matters by carrying on in such ignomonious style. I still think that history will be kind to him once the dust has finally settled, though.

Lots of guess work to it, I suppose, but had he retired after Tarver I then I find it hard to imagine anybody leaving him outside a top twenty-odd. His achievements, longevity, dominance over his peers and sheer God-given talent stack up well against many of the best from any era you wish to delve in to, in my eyes.

There is a lot of downplaying of how good Jones was and how well regarded he was, a lot of it a little unfair in my opinion, all too easy to say Ruiz was not all that, and you will hear no arguments from me, but in recent years and in truth throughout heavyweight history there have been poor champions but Jones remains to this day one of the only two former middle champs to annex even a portion of the heavyweight title.

My personal view is because so many of his losses in his older years were by knockout this has fed into the view he never had a chin and in some way did not have sound fundamentals, I am not convinced myself, no matter how quick you are you get clipped occasionally and up to and including Ruiz think I am right in saying only Del Valle put him over. Guess the only other thing that could hurt him is the bulk of his career was spent in possibly the most talent stacked division in the history of the sport, so it is possible to throw away comments like he is not even in the top five at his weight that may well be true but do not even hint at the talent he possessed in his prime.

Union Cane wrote:
Does anyone think that Jones had even half a chance of beating Lewis?

Not a sniff of a hope! No damn way!

Jones Junior wanted b-all to do with Lennox Lewis and after he beat Ruiz considered fighting a washed up Tyson!!! Jones Junior's achievement at Heavyweight is remarkable only in the sense he came up from middleweight to take the strap. However, such a victory doesn't take a lot of disecting. Ruiz was a poor champion and JJ was only too willing to slip back down to Light Heavy where he belonged before the hyperbole of becoming a heavyweight champ died out and too many people would ask awkward questions about whether Jones Jnr would take on the real champion in Lennox. It was a good win considering the circumstances but it was clearly a cynical ploy for Jones to be regarded as a Haevyweight champion on paper and no more!

As I alluded to though D, one does have to ask if a middle winning a heavyweight title is just a case of waiting until there is a poor champion and then pouncing why has no other heavyweight before or since other than Ruby Rob managed the feat, because it certainly ain't because of the shortage of poor heavyweight champions in the history of the division.

Would never claim Jones is a legitimate champion at heavy or would have stood a cat in hells with Lewis but does stick in my craw a bit seeing the acheivement downgraded as frequently as it is because it is no mean feat.

Yeah Jeff, I agreed that it was a good win but it has to be taken in context though. I actually think if Jones was at his peak in (what was it?) 2005 or 2006 just before Wlad gained the IBF and when we had four poor champs like Maskaev and Ibragimov or what not then theoretically Jones Junior could have been undisputed heavyweight champion heaven forbid!

The problem is, if Jones had snapped up a strap during 2006 rather than 2003 then people would say it was great full stop. The problem for Jones' timing was the great LL was around at the same time.

....which I forgot to mention kind of cheapens the win because everyone knew Lennox was the real champion.

rowley wrote:As I alluded to though D, one does have to ask if a middle winning a heavyweight title is just a case of waiting until there is a poor champion and then pouncing why has no other heavyweight before or since other than Ruby Rob managed the feat, because it certainly ain't because of the shortage of poor heavyweight champions in the history of the division.

Would never claim Jones is a legitimate champion at heavy or would have stood a cat in hells with Lewis but does stick in my craw a bit seeing the acheivement downgraded as frequently as it is because it is no mean feat.

It was a remarkable feat and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't really thinking straight. I don't think anyone is claiming RJJ was a great heavyweight or the Lineal champ. He was a heavyweight for one night really but what a night. As Rowley says there have been tonnes of weak champs up there yet only 2 have ventured up from MW and won a portion of the title. If someone like Martinez or Hopkins moved up and beat a limited heavy like Arreola or Chisora they'd deserve all of the credit in the world.

Edit: i realise he didn't go directly from MW to HW before someone points it out.

Jones would have lasted as long as Golota did against Lennox

After Jones beat Ruiz he wanted to fight Tyson then retire. When it became obvious that it was never going to happen I think he lost focus on boxing.

I don't think Jones Jr at heavyweight would have had a chance. Thats not my being a massive Lewis fan, thats just sense.

This would be a terrible mismatch! Jones Jr spent his career fighting around the weight classes including Eubank, Benn and Collins amongst other established fighters (all of whom he mercilessly avoided lets remember). Lewis was amongst the finest heavyweights to ever grace the sport. The fight would never had happened and if it did it would not have got out of the first round. Joe Calzaghe put a terrible beating on Jones who was admittadly old by then but theres not a hope and hell he would have beaten Lewis. Im sure even a fine fighter like Calzaghe would be the first to admit he wouldnt dare dream of fighting Lennox Lewis.

Gordy wrote:This would be a terrible mismatch! Jones Jr spent his career fighting around the weight classes including Eubank, Benn and Collins amongst other established fighters (all of whom he mercilessly avoided lets remember).

While we're at it, Gordy, are you sure he didn't shamelessly duck and avoid Michael Nunn, Iran Barkley and Terry Norris, as well?

I'm a huge Jones fan but he wouldnt have had a chance.
Even if Lewis came in at 300lbs I still would still make him the favourite.

Although Jones should have quit after the Ruiz fight, I also believe that he made a bigger mistake by draining himself back down the LHW limit. He should have just stayed at HW. There were some good fights that could have been made.

Some of the other champions/contenders at the time such as Holyfield, Tyson, Sanders, Rahman, Tua, Golota, Johnson, Maskaev etc would have all been winnable fights for Jones (albeit risky).
I've always thought Jones Vs Byrd at HW would have been an interesting encounter.

Come to think of it, with the exception of Lewis and K2, I would give the version of Jones that beat Ruiz a very good chance of beating any HW over the last decade.

Ridiculous to think Jones could hang with Lewis at HW. One decent jab away from dead at all times

Its an interesting question regarding Jones as a heavyweight and who he might have beaten. On reflection, theres probably not really a whole lot of heavyweights (if any) outside of Lewis and the Klitschkos that I would install as overwhelming favourites over Jones.

All there is to go off is the Ruiz fight really. I suppose if you look at it objectively, the Ruiz win was very good in the context of Jones being an ex middleweight. But outside that its only a decent win in terms of performance and status. I dont think Id make Jones favourite over the likes of Tua, Byrd, Haye, Peter, Rahman but I think hes definately capable of beating guys like Maskaev, Liakhovitch, Chambers, Adamek, Barret etc.

There also a whole host of guys Id find it very hard to say without seeing more of him at heavyweight.

manos de piedra wrote:Its an interesting question regarding Jones as a heavyweight and who he might have beaten. On reflection, theres probably not really a whole lot of heavyweights (if any) outside of Lewis and the Klitschkos that I would install as overwhelming favourites over Jones.

All there is to go off is the Ruiz fight really. I suppose if you look at it objectively, the Ruiz win was very good in the context of Jones being an ex middleweight. But outside that its only a decent win in terms of performance and status. I dont think Id make Jones favourite over the likes of Tua, Byrd, Haye, Peter, Rahman but I think hes definately capable of beating guys like Maskaev, Liakhovitch, Chambers, Adamek, Barret etc.

There also a whole host of guys Id find it very hard to say without seeing more of him at heavyweight.

Thats pretty much how I see it as well.

There always will come a point when size difference outweights skill difference. However, with Jones, I think his exceptional skill would have been enough to better the more ordinary bigger men (and we've seen plenty of them over the last decade).

For a smaller fighter to have success at HW, they need to be hard to hit...and Jones was as elusive as you get.

I'd actually would made Jones favourite to beat the likes of Tua, Sanders, Golota, Peters and Rahman. Tua was slow and sluggish and I could just see him trying but failing to pin Jones down. Rahman had all sorts of problems with Ruiz and Maskaev (X2) which leads me to believe that Jones would have had success with him also. Peters should have dropped a decision against another ex-MW in Toney, and Toney lacked the dedication, athleticism and argubly the ability of Jones.

Obviously, I'm not saying this with any certainty as one clean punch from any of the above would have put Jones in a coma, but overall I'd give Jones the slight edge.

Lewis, Wlad and Vitali are the only HW's in recent years that I feel Jones would have had no chance with.

Golota, Byrd, Tua, Sanders, Briggs, Grant and a few others I would make fairly comfortable favourites over Jones.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Golota, Byrd, Tua, Sanders, Briggs, Grant and a few others I would make fairly comfortable favourites over Jones.

Now there's a surprise. But a part time boxer/part time blacksmith would KO all of them and a few in one night.

Yawn.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Golota, Byrd, Tua, Sanders, Briggs, Grant and a few others I would make fairly comfortable favourites over Jones.

Golota, Tua, Briggs and Grant were all on the decline by the time Jones became HW champion. In fact, Golota dropped a controversial decision to Ruiz a year later.
Jones was in talks with Sanders for a unification fight but it fell through when the WBO threatened to strip Sanders of the belt since Jones wasnt ranked in their top 10.

Against Jones, the more someone goes for his head the more likely he wins any half decent heavy would kill his body and all those ghosty has named would do it - even if golota is a nutjob. Probably best chance is to beat Byrd but even there I think its very unlikely.

ShahenshahG wrote:Against Jones, the more someone goes for his head the more likely he wins any half decent heavy would kill his body and all those ghosty has named would do it - even if golota is a nutjob. Probably best chance is to beat Byrd but even there I think its very unlikely.

At their primes they'd be favourites to win, but in 2003 I think it would have been harder to call.