Wayne Smith turns down England for family reasons

https://twitter.com/#!/Official_RFU/status/197278779217948672

Huge shame for us. I guess it could be a shootout between Catt and King for the permanent role then.

EDIT: full story now on rfu.com. Quotes below

Wayne Smith: "I was very impressed with Stuart [Lancaster] when I met him. He is an outstanding individual and will be a great plus for England Rugby and anyone who works in his team will be very fortunate. England have some fantastic young players and the opportunity to work with them ahead of the 2015 World Cup was very appealing.

"I also want to compliment the RFU on the way they have conducted the process. They have acted with integrity, diligence and patience.

"It was an incredibly difficult decision but ultimately I have decided to stay in New Zealand, mainly for personal reasons. I took the job with the Chiefs so I could move nearer to elderly parents. I have travelled the globe with rugby for the last 15 years and I want to fulfil my commitment to be closer to them.

"I do also feel some loyalty to the Chiefs and the job that I have with them and leaving after eight months when I have a year left on my contract did not feel right."

Stuart Lancaster: "Wayne rang me this morning and I fully respect his decision which, as he says, was a difficult one.

"He is clearly a coach of quality, honesty and integrity. I enjoyed meeting him and wish him all the best for the future in his coaching role with the Chiefs. All my energy will now go into preparing for an exciting tour to South Africa and I will reassess the coaching team post tour prior to the start of the QBE Internationals."

Ian Ritchie: “We are disappointed but it is important to remember we already have some very talented coaches on board. We will take stock after the tour and make sure we do all we can to support Stuart in building a coaching team to take us through to 2015.”

Yes a shame for England but totally understandable decision & to be fair probably the right one.

shame for England yes but I'm massively rapt that we've been able to hang on to him. NZ needs its top coaches to stay in the NZ game...there is still work to be done!

Not surprising. Probably better in a way to have a less profile and more importantly English coach to join Lancaster.

We'll see what Catt can do.

Ah shame, would have loved to have had him on board but fully understand his reasoning. Refreshing to see loyalty to his club is so important to him.
Nice to see both sides being so positive about each other, even the RFU!

Unlucky. He is a great coach. You also lost out on the already established Farrell aswell, I reckon it could hinder the development of this England team. SA's players are looking good, just to let you know...

Sorry Morgannwg can you be clearer, do you mean SA's SA players or our SA players? It does get confusing sometimes!

He didn't want the job so forget him. What isn't clear to me from the BBC page is whether Catt is in just for the SA tour, or more as a permanent role.

SA's SA players of course. They shouldn't be confused with SA's amateur rejects who are now considered to be the best players in England.

South Africa should be able to call on some experienced players, noteably you will see guys like Bekker, Alberts, De Jongh, Aplon, etc.. coming back into the team.

Morgannwg wrote:SA's SA players of course. They shouldn't be confused with SA's amateur rejects who are now considered to be the best players in England.

Has to sneak into everything doesn't it? Get over it.

That's the problem with you Morg, I have a playful dig at my own team and instead of joining in with the same sort of light hearted banter you try and start a flame war. That's entirely your prerogative of course but it does just make you seem petty and small minded.

Ok lads that was a step too far from myself. I apologise.

Good to see you can apologise like a man

It's a big blow for England Smith is a very talented coach and his experience at international level could of helped SL an awful lot.

Mike Catt doesn't have that much experience at coaching but at least the appointment of Mike Catt means they are developing an English coach which should benefit English rugby in the long run.

Ps Yes I am well aware that Mike Catt was born in and schooled in South Africa but he did win 75 caps of England and has an English mother

Fair enough Morg!

I still love to see what Kirwan could do and the ideas he could bring.

damage_13 wrote:I still love to see what Kirwan could do and the ideas he could bring.

I like that idea. Shame Smith chose to stay in NZ although I totally understand his reasons.

I think a decent SH attack / backs coach could really help England. Although I rated Mike Catt as a player (and person after reading his book) I've yet to be convinced he has what it takes to be a top coach. He had plenty of talent at LI and although dangerous the backs hardly ripped teams to pieces on a regular basis. A good player does not always make a good coach (although I would be more than happy to be proved wrong).

B91212 wrote:He had plenty of talent at LI and although dangerous the backs hardly ripped teams to pieces on a regular basis. A good player does not always make a good coach (although I would be more than happy to be proved wrong).

LI's backs used to rip teams to pieces in and around the season they made the Premiership final, before going backwards. Who was the backs coach back then?

Wasnt that Brian Smith?

Catt played that season. He had a player/coach role, but I can't remember what his actual coaching position was. Wasn't Brian Smith head coach?

Wasn't Brian Smith head coach?

Brian Smith was head coach and Catt backs coach. It was Smith that came up with a lot of the clever attacking ploys utilised by LI, if you watched ESPN for the Tigers vs LI game you'd have heard Ben Kay go on about the movement and use of the ball off the LI lineout. It led to a LI try and Kay described it as a classic Brian Smith play. He found himself an outsider in the Johnno regime though, I think there were too many coaches with too different ideas for that set up to work successfully.

I remember seeing Ashton somewhere saying that Wells sees the game as a physical battle, whereas he sees it as an intellectual one, and that this meant they didn't really gel as a coaching team. Maybe there was a similar problem with Smith.

This is not all bad news.

If SL had had his way, it would have been A Farrell and like Pol Pot he'd have been leading us back to the stone age.

OK. The (attacking) backs coach should be inventive, progressive, constructive, cohesive and inspirational.

So that's a piece of pease then.

But there are many people here cluttering up the floorspace. Like Cockers was before the Tigers stopped scanning the Earth.

Totally respect Smith's decision and wish him well. It would have been good but we just move on.

Catt now has a similar opportunity SL's, temporary appointment but reviewable after the tour. I honestly think he has the potential and that SL could be the perfect head coach for him to work with. Lancaster seems to have a very inclusive and collaberative attitude to coaching which won't leave Catt feeling isolated or out of his depth. All in all a good decision that I hope he makes the most of.

Portnoy wrote:This is not all bad news.

If SL had had his way, it would have been A Farrell and like Pol Pot he'd have been leading us back to the stone age.

OK. The (attacking) backs coach should be inventive, progressive, constructive, cohesive and inspirational.

So that's a piece of pease then.

But there are many people here cluttering up the floorspace. Like Cockers was before the Tigers stopped scanning the Earth.

Really unimpressed with Catt as a coach, after Bath LI have to be the least consistent team in the prem and their backs are massive under achievers. Look at the quality of players in the backline and you'd think they'd be deadly but they play like they've never met before the game.

Yes there are problems in the forwards too but Glos and Bath both have that and their backs perform far better.

Hopefully he'll prove me totally wrong now.

beshocked wrote:

Portnoy wrote:This is not all bad news.

If SL had had his way, it would have been A Farrell and like Pol Pot he'd have been leading us back to the stone age.

OK. The (attacking) backs coach should be inventive, progressive, constructive, cohesive and inspirational.

So that's a piece of pease then.

But there are many people here cluttering up the floorspace. Like Cockers was before the Tigers stopped scanning the Earth.

You'll have to advise me ' ed.

Which record is broken?

Pretty gutted about this, i think we desperately need an inventive backs coach, and i think they're few and far between in England.

Mike Catt has not impressed me in the slightest to date. Savvy and classy player but as a coach? Not convinced. Fingers crossed i guess.

I would also say i think this set-up would really benefit from a coach who has coached abroad, preferably in the S15

So its:

HC: Lancaster
Backs Coach: Catt
Forwards Coach: Rowntree
Defence Coach: ? TBA or will the three work on this?

I think catt will get more attacking play than was achieved in the 6n. He will also probably push for Flood to start.

Im not dissappointed.

I was kind of hoping Smith might take up the position but he hasnt so its all water under the bridge but onwards and upwards for english rugby. Kudos to both lancaster and smith for their approach and professionalism in handling of this matter and to english posters here who obviously feel their rugby is gaining momentum such is their positive attitude and enthusiasm.

Smith has said he was impressed with lancasters vision for england rugby so things look pretty good on that front.

Smith has said he was impressed with lancasters vision for england rugby so things look pretty good on that front.

Now i read that as he was impressed with Lancasters focus and clear focus on the direction he wanted to take england rather than impressed with his actual vision.

I just took it that Smiths vision maybe didnt quite match the route that Lancaster wants to go?

Of course i maybe wrong....

Echo a lot of the sentiments already on here. It would have been nice if Smith had signed up, but I can completely respect his reasons for staying in New Zealand.

The worst thing we can do now is knee-jerk and install someone permanently. We were obviously courting Smith and we haven't got him, now we have to step back and really assess the other options. Catt has been given a chance for the tour to South Africa, and I don't think it would be right to make a decision until the end of the tour (assuming Catt wants to be in contention for the job on a permanent basis). Other options include Kirwan, Alex King or Brian Ashton. All three would be interesting selections (as would Catt), but I'd probably lean slightly towards Kirwan at the moment. If not him then possibly Ashton.

Ashton could be a good guy in the with Lancaster. Great attacking coach but appalling 'management' skills apparently. He knows Lancaster well and has been in communication with him.

I know coaches are important in the modern game, but it's worth thinking about what Gareth Edwards said on the subject in an interview a few years ago.

It was on the lines of : you have to have outstanding players first - only then can the coach be successful.

What Edwards said may seem obvious, but I'm not sure it is so obvious to some.

My mind is the pound used to be 4 dolars in new zealand. Now is less than 2 dolars.

So used to be a great contract to come in England. But now is not so nicely. The pockets of RFU not so deep and so easy to stay tempted by the style of life in more open place.

Might be many problems for England because this is true.

Shane Geraghty must be pleased!

anotherworldofpain wrote:My mind is the pound used to be 4 dolars in new zealand. Now is less than 2 dolars.

So used to be a great contract to come in England. But now is not so nicely. The pockets of RFU not so deep and so easy to stay tempted by the style of life in more open place.

Might be many problems for England because this is true.

The RFU have never paid Kiwi's to come over so I don't understand the relevance of their pocket depth. Also not sure how this translates into problems for England.

anotherworldofpain wrote:My mind is the pound used to be 4 dolars in new zealand. Now is less than 2 dolars.

So used to be a great contract to come in England. But now is not so nicely. The pockets of RFU not so deep and so easy to stay tempted by the style of life in more open place.

Might be many problems for England because this is true.

To suggest Smith's motives are financial when he has stated he wishes to stay close to his elderly parents and see through the job he has started at the Chiefs seems like an unfair accusation against the man, especially as I think the RFU could still offer him more than he's on in NZ with a less favourable exchange rate.

Mike Catt will join England's coaching staff for next month's five-match tour of South Africa, the Rugby Football Union (RFU) said on Tuesday.

The South African-born former England utility back will leave London Irish after Saturday's final Premiership game against Gloucester for England duties from May 7 to June 30.

"Mike has played at the top level and is highly respected. He has done a great job whilst coaching at London Irish and we are looking forward to working with him on this South Africa tour," said England head coach Stuart Lancaster in a statement.

"He is experienced in playing in South Africa and this will be invaluable as we prepare for this challenging and exciting tour."

Smith has opted to turn down the Blues too, in favour of staying in Hamilton
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10802991

I know smiths a miracle worker and a fantastic coach KD but the blues need much more than just plain old everyday miracles...

Taylorman, what do you think is the reason for the Blues being so poor this season, it must be the worst a New Zealand frnachise as done in the Super rugby comp ever.

I'm sure the RFU would have raided their bank account to secure Smith's services so Money would have had little to do with it regardless of the FX rate.

Their hearts are not in it. They go down a try or a penalty and their heads drop and all the fire goes out of them. Winning becomes a habit but so too does losing unfortunately. They have had key injuries to Kaino and Boric to name a few but they look as though they want the earth to swallow them up.

Smith has said he will stay on in the Waikato to be near his parents and won't take the Blues job. I have a lot of respect for that even though he will always be a Cantab in my eyes. He was my rugby hero growing up along with Deans.

Shame for England and not sure Catt is the solution but time will tell. Jake White, another that got away, is working wonders with the Brumbies. How much can this be attributed to Andrew or the RFU set up?

biltongbek wrote:Taylorman, what do you think is the reason for the Blues being so poor this season, it must be the worst a New Zealand frnachise as done in the Super rugby comp ever.

The Blues' previous worst season was 2009 when they lost 7 matches - they've already lost 7 this season, and I wouldn't be betting on them in Wellington this week. I suspect the Chiefs or Highlanders may have had a worse season, and the Crusaders finished dead last in 1996 before the advent of Wayne Smith and Robbie Deans.

Personally I think Catt will prove to be a stellar signing. He was a fantastic backline player who was often misused by his coaches.. perhaps due to his versatility.

Will be a great improvement on Farrell who was in terms of union, one notch below Mike Tindall in the attacking sense and that says something.

For me it comes first back to Lam as head coach. On paper he had the best team if AB numbers are the measure. 6 starting Abs or so.

He has available to him the most money and resources, training facilities and the pleasure of eden park at his disposal.

He didnt gain commitment from a weeping wobbling weepu and nonu clearly had no interest.

There appeared to be no gameplan or if there was no desire to adhere to it- all signs of disharmony, lack of team spirit and as kia says, interest.

They couldnt even be bothered adopting a simple disipline of not throwing 50-50 balls such was their lack of commitment to the cause.

For me this is all Lams inability to unify a team in a common cause. Its as though they thought the names would see them through the season.

Yes the players are responsible and there were injuries but based on the players they have, they should be top 6 at least.

Lam wll definitely be gone but the year is basically wasted for these players, its fans and is a blight on the proud history of auckland rugby.

Hold up here for just one minute everyone.

I am enjoying the sudden outbreak of peace and light between everyone on here and i am delighted with the comments from Smith and the handling by Lancaster. Dignity upheld all round.

All good.

But i dare to play devil's advocate here and just ask Mr Wayne Smith - what changed ?


His reasons for staying in NZ and as people have said for rejecting Auckland Blues as well as England appear to be family reasons. Fine.

When and how did those family reasons change? Why make an application?

Why even be in the process? Why not tell Lancaster he need not fly to SA?

Why seemingly waste everyone's fecking time?

Or have i missed something in all this?

If so please fecking enlighten me.

BURN THE UNBELIEVER!!!!!!!

fa0019 wrote:Personally I think Catt will prove to be a stellar signing. He was a fantastic backline player who was often misused by his coaches.. perhaps due to his versatility.

Will be a great improvement on Farrell who was in terms of union, one notch below Mike Tindall in the attacking sense and that says something.

Why are you equating playing ability to coaching ability in such a simplistic fashion?

In my limited knowledge and experience the ability of coach is almost inversely proportionate to their playing ability.

The less gifted players are forced to think about the game a lot more and to be more sneaky in maximising the best of their limited talents. They are forced to think about the team and how best they can contribute. They need to be excellent communicators to survive.