Wayne Smith turns down England for family reasons

First topic message reminder :

https://twitter.com/#!/Official_RFU/status/197278779217948672

Huge shame for us. I guess it could be a shootout between Catt and King for the permanent role then.

EDIT: full story now on rfu.com. Quotes below

Wayne Smith: "I was very impressed with Stuart [Lancaster] when I met him. He is an outstanding individual and will be a great plus for England Rugby and anyone who works in his team will be very fortunate. England have some fantastic young players and the opportunity to work with them ahead of the 2015 World Cup was very appealing.

"I also want to compliment the RFU on the way they have conducted the process. They have acted with integrity, diligence and patience.

"It was an incredibly difficult decision but ultimately I have decided to stay in New Zealand, mainly for personal reasons. I took the job with the Chiefs so I could move nearer to elderly parents. I have travelled the globe with rugby for the last 15 years and I want to fulfil my commitment to be closer to them.

"I do also feel some loyalty to the Chiefs and the job that I have with them and leaving after eight months when I have a year left on my contract did not feel right."

Stuart Lancaster: "Wayne rang me this morning and I fully respect his decision which, as he says, was a difficult one.

"He is clearly a coach of quality, honesty and integrity. I enjoyed meeting him and wish him all the best for the future in his coaching role with the Chiefs. All my energy will now go into preparing for an exciting tour to South Africa and I will reassess the coaching team post tour prior to the start of the QBE Internationals."

Ian Ritchie: “We are disappointed but it is important to remember we already have some very talented coaches on board. We will take stock after the tour and make sure we do all we can to support Stuart in building a coaching team to take us through to 2015.”

Did WS apply or did Lancaster go 'out of his way' to fly to SA to present his case hoping he could convince him to join. If he applied, then this is a fair question. If it was a cold call, then WS had a right to mull the proposition over. To be fair, the decision was made relatively quickly, which was respectful to England. He could have said, give me a month to decide.

EBOP wrote:To be fair, the decision was made relatively quickly, which was respectful to England. He could have said, give me a month to decide.

I agree. I think Wayne Smith was respectful of SL and English rugby, and think considering the conundrum he was put into, dealt with it well.

Catt was an excellent mentor in the final years of his playing career... he was never the star man working off the actions of others.. rather it was him who would make the plays.

Also he has done good work with LI as coach.

Personally I don't think its a definitive pattern that only average players make top coaches. Often the top players get media work/are placed in the forefront of their unions etc which makes coaching less desirable.

For every Jake White, Eddie Jones etc there is a Rassie Erasmus, Robbie Deans, Wayne Smith & Phillip Saint-Andre.

Perhaps you are right about individuals such as Guscott & Campo but Catt does not fit into that mould.

bluestonevedder wrote:

EBOP wrote:To be fair, the decision was made relatively quickly, which was respectful to England. He could have said, give me a month to decide.

I agree. I think Wayne Smith was respectful of SL and English rugby, and think considering the conundrum he was put into, dealt with it well.

I think you are probably correct here. I do think its a valid question however and really my question stands. It stands and we dont know the answer. I fail to see how this could in any way be categorised as a cold call out of nowhere. I was under the impression that Smith's hat was well and truly in the ring for MONTHS.

As you can tell i am thoroughly fed up and frustrated (not necessarily by Smith himself but by the process we seem to be in here) with senior England coaching jobs being treated like a punctured and rotting ball to be hoofed about in the wettest corner of a poorly drained 10th XV rugby pitch built on an old tip site.

The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

Triangulation wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

In fairness to the man, he announced last week that he was going to consider the offer from SL. So I don't know if he had completely made his mind up. A few months back he was considering a UK club move, I wonder if seeing his parents regularly over the past few months has gradually put him off the idea of moving away, or if their circumstnaces have changed.

Either that or he ultimately decided after wrestling with the idea that he couldn't coach a team against the ABs, and he doesn't think he could salvage the Blues and decided to use the "close to parents" argument as "nicer" way to opt out.

Triangulation wrote:Hold up here for just one minute everyone.

I am enjoying the sudden outbreak of peace and light between everyone on here and i am delighted with the comments from Smith and the handling by Lancaster. Dignity upheld all round.

All good.

But i dare to play devil's advocate here and just ask Mr Wayne Smith - what changed ?


His reasons for staying in NZ and as people have said for rejecting Auckland Blues as well as England appear to be family reasons. Fine.

When and how did those family reasons change? Why make an application?



Why even be in the process? Why not tell Lancaster he need not fly to SA?

Why seemingly waste everyone's fecking time?

Or have i missed something in all this?

If so please fecking enlighten me.

I think the best answer to that is coming out of a World Cup win, you eye up the next big challenge don’t you? Certainly the Chiefs are a challenge and they’re doing incredibly well but it isn’t International Rugby. The England job comes up and suddenly Smith is tempted. However, he’s knocked it back not only to stay close to his parents but also because he came to the conclusion that he could not coach a team against NZ and to this point, he’s said he won’t be coaching at that level again. He now wants a long term post with the Chiefs which is great for NZ rugby in my humble opinion.

But it took the temptation of the England post for Smith to realise what his priorities are not just in the game, but in life too. I’m sure the RFU aren’t going to be cut up about a couple of grand spent on flying Lancaster out to SA for a couple of days of talks.....they spent tens of thousands more sending a team to the World Cup for no apparent reason other than a bit of a urine up!

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

In fairness to the man, he announced last week that he was going to consider the offer from SL. So I don't know if he had completely made his mind up. A few months back he was considering a UK club move, I wonder if seeing his parents regularly over the past few months has gradually put him off the idea of moving away, or if their circumstnaces have changed.

Either that or he ultimately decided after wrestling with the idea that he couldn't coach a team against the ABs, and he doesn't think he could salvage the Blues and decided to use the "close to parents" argument as "nicer" way to opt out.

Thankyou Kiwireddevil

You are the first and only person who has attempted to put forward a possible coherent explanation.

I bear no ill will to Mr Smith and i completely respect his given reason(s) for staying put.

I am frustrated with the process and (lack of) outcomes which i accept could be entirely the fault of rob andrew or well anyone or no one. As supporters were treated like mushrooms and have to live off the scraps from the toryograph's disgracefull speculative table.

I used to have this fanciful and naive view that an England rugby national coaching role was a position to be covetted and honoured.

Please forgive me for venting my frustrations.

Triangulation wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

In fairness to the man, he announced last week that he was going to consider the offer from SL. So I don't know if he had completely made his mind up. A few months back he was considering a UK club move, I wonder if seeing his parents regularly over the past few months has gradually put him off the idea of moving away, or if their circumstnaces have changed.

Either that or he ultimately decided after wrestling with the idea that he couldn't coach a team against the ABs, and he doesn't think he could salvage the Blues and decided to use the "close to parents" argument as "nicer" way to opt out.

Thankyou Kiwireddevil

You are the first and only person who has attempted to put forward a possible coherent explanation.

I bear no ill will to Mr Smith and i completely respect his given reason(s) for staying put.

I am frustrated with the process and (lack of) outcomes which i accept could be entirely the fault of rob andrew or well anyone or no one. As supporters were treated like mushrooms and have to live off the scraps from the toryograph's disgracefull speculative table.

I used to have this fanciful and naive view that an England rugby national coaching role was a position to be covetted and honoured.

Please forgive me for venting my frustrations.

No worries mate.

Smith walked away from the AB's head coach role in 2001 because he wasn't sure he wanted all of the pressure, politics and media attention that went with the role, and he said last week that he would prefer a "track suit " role with England too. And he's in a track suit role with the Chiefs now, and it's working well. So "comfort" (for want of a better word) trumps ambition?

I also found it strange that Smith was offered different possibilities: head coach, attack coach and back coach to name a few. You would think the RFU would be offering a specific role for a specific purpose instead of saying pick a colour any colour. To me it comes off as a little desperate and undermines SL in his role at the same time. I'd be surprised if Catt was offered more than just the one role.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

In fairness to the man, he announced last week that he was going to consider the offer from SL. So I don't know if he had completely made his mind up. A few months back he was considering a UK club move, I wonder if seeing his parents regularly over the past few months has gradually put him off the idea of moving away, or if their circumstnaces have changed.

Either that or he ultimately decided after wrestling with the idea that he couldn't coach a team against the ABs, and he doesn't think he could salvage the Blues and decided to use the "close to parents" argument as "nicer" way to opt out.

Thankyou Kiwireddevil

You are the first and only person who has attempted to put forward a possible coherent explanation.

I bear no ill will to Mr Smith and i completely respect his given reason(s) for staying put.

I am frustrated with the process and (lack of) outcomes which i accept could be entirely the fault of rob andrew or well anyone or no one. As supporters were treated like mushrooms and have to live off the scraps from the toryograph's disgracefull speculative table.

I used to have this fanciful and naive view that an England rugby national coaching role was a position to be covetted and honoured.

Please forgive me for venting my frustrations.

No worries mate.

Smith walked away from the AB's head coach role in 2001 because he wasn't sure he wanted all of the pressure, politics and media attention that went with the role, and he said last week that he would prefer a "track suit " role with England too. And he's in a track suit role with the Chiefs now, and it's working well. So "comfort" (for want of a better word) trumps ambition?

That is helpful.

Whatever Mr Smith's motivations are i just feel that the net result of the entire process post Johnson has been that the England rugby national coaching positions are like the local village bicycle.

Everyone who is anyone wants to give it a good old ride. They enjoy the ride. Sometimes they drag the ride out. At the end of the day though they dont want to own that bicycle though do they? Oh no. It is too ragged for that. They simply leave it where they found it in the pub carpark.

England supporters one and all wake up and smell the bicuits. That is our current standing.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I also found it strange that Smith was offered different possibilities: head coach, attack coach and back coach to name a few. You would think the RFU would be offering a specific role for a specific purpose instead of saying pick a colour any colour. To me it comes off as a little desperate and undermines SL in his role at the same time. I'd be surprised if Catt was offered more than just the one role.

+1 read my last post.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The very justifiable reasons WS gave (family and country commitments) were no-brainers - he would have thought those through and discussed with the appropriate people ages ago. So I'm surprised at the high profile attempts by the RFU at luring him to the old country. I would have thought a quick phone-call would have sufficed.

Well yes. But where there is life there is hope and everyone knows were trying to be optimisitc for once

SO

a very short public statement from Smith months ago would've saved us all time, expense, possibly lost opportunity with other candidates etc etc.

I am not media flunkey but here i'll have a go at drafting it for Mr Smith.

" While i am flattered to be named as a possible coach with the England national rugby side i am not available to take up any such position due to my commitment to stay here to be with my family"

"I am not available" being the key phrase here.....

In fairness to the man, he announced last week that he was going to consider the offer from SL. So I don't know if he had completely made his mind up. A few months back he was considering a UK club move, I wonder if seeing his parents regularly over the past few months has gradually put him off the idea of moving away, or if their circumstnaces have changed.

Either that or he ultimately decided after wrestling with the idea that he couldn't coach a team against the ABs, and he doesn't think he could salvage the Blues and decided to use the "close to parents" argument as "nicer" way to opt out.

Thankyou Kiwireddevil

You are the first and only person who has attempted to put forward a possible coherent explanation.

I bear no ill will to Mr Smith and i completely respect his given reason(s) for staying put.

I am frustrated with the process and (lack of) outcomes which i accept could be entirely the fault of rob andrew or well anyone or no one. As supporters were treated like mushrooms and have to live off the scraps from the toryograph's disgracefull speculative table.

I used to have this fanciful and naive view that an England rugby national coaching role was a position to be covetted and honoured.

Please forgive me for venting my frustrations.

No worries mate.

Smith walked away from the AB's head coach role in 2001 because he wasn't sure he wanted all of the pressure, politics and media attention that went with the role, and he said last week that he would prefer a "track suit " role with England too. And he's in a track suit role with the Chiefs now, and it's working well. So "comfort" (for want of a better word) trumps ambition?

I would think lack of ambition could be very detrimental as a head coach for any team. It is fine if another is the driving foce such as Graham Henry, steve Hansen or Stuart Lancaster. but when someone has repeatedly shown lack of ambition to take the responsibility as head coach, I would think twice before hiring him as such.

I am not saying it is a bad thing, not everyone wants to be in the limelight.

Yeah I enjoyed that. I used to have a drinking bike. Never had to lock it up - it was bright pink - and though I never bought it, the original owner didn't seem to want it back. This was when I lived in a small alpine village in France and so it was small enough to be noticed.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yeah I enjoyed that. I used to have a drinking bike. Never had to lock it up - it was bright pink - and though I never bought it, the original owner didn't seem to want it back. This was when I lived in a small alpine village in France and so it was small enough to be noticed.

Great. So you, one of the more reasonable posters, "enjoy" the fact that were the village bicycle of the rugby world. It never ends...

No I just liked your analogy. It brought out nostalgia in me.

I think there are big concerns for the way the RFU has handled this whole coaching thing. To hire a headhunting company and then say no we've got our man and had him all along smacks of incompetence. Then to send feelers out to other head coaches or back coaches or whatever and come up empty and then announce Catt so soon after - I mean where did he come from all of a sudden - and you start thinking a million monkeys with a million typewriters couldn't come up with that.

But then again England seem to have turned round their disappointing RWC campaign in very short time and there is hope for the youth and players in general at England's disposal. So chin up mate.

Million monkeys with a million typewriters........love it!

aucklandlaurie wrote: Million monkeys with a million typewriters........love it!

Surely the infinite monkey theorem isn't new to you though?

Never heard of it.I got no problem revealing my lack of edumication.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:No I just liked your analogy. It brought out nostalgia in me.

I think there are big concerns for the way the RFU has handled this whole coaching thing. To hire a headhunting company and then say no we've got our man and had him all along smacks of incompetence. Then to send feelers out to other head coaches or back coaches or whatever and come up empty and then announce Catt so soon after - I mean where did he come from all of a sudden - and you start thinking a million monkeys with a million typewriters couldn't come up with that.

But then again England seem to have turned round their disappointing RWC campaign in very short time and there is hope for the youth and players in general at England's disposal. So chin up mate.

If you jump to a load of conclusions it might look incompetent. You seem to missing some information. Regarding Catt, if Smith was first choice it was said very early on that he wouldn't be available for the SA tour and Catt's name was banded about a month ago. It's not out of the blue. And why is it incompetent to appoint someone the headhunting firm didn't pick out? Do you know what they said about Lancaster? Was he possibly their preferred candidate? Did they even have a preferred candidate or did they just look around at who was available? If you want to see incompetence their that's up to you.

Well I'm afraid I do. I have no issue with SL being picked. But if the RFU were so sure about picking him, why go to the trouble, not to mention the expense, of openly trying to recruit somebody else? Now I don't have a problem with the RFU canvassing other candidates but I do have a problem using a headhunting firm to do that. The job description alone, which looked more out of a marketing director than a rugby coach, seemed to drive away the overseas contenders. You mention Catt's name was banded about a month ago. To go from that to being appointed in just under a month seems a little on the rushed side. Smith officially turns the job down so suddenly Catt gets the nod. You're right, I don't have the information but to me it seems precipitous.

That said, SL seems like a no nonsense guy and I wish him the best for the season to come as he has one of the most arduous test schedules this year if not the most arduous. So many challenging games and I hope the knives don't come out if results don't go England's way. If England wins a series in SA he´ll be lauded a genius and the RFU will rest on their laurels for the better half of the decade.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Well I'm afraid I do. I have no issue with SL being picked. But if the RFU were so sure about picking him, why go to the trouble, not to mention the expense, of openly trying to recruit somebody else? Now I don't have a problem with the RFU canvassing other candidates but I do have a problem using a headhunting firm to do that. The job description alone, which looked more out of a marketing director than a rugby coach, seemed to drive away the overseas contenders. You mention Catt's name was banded about a month ago. To go from that to being appointed in just under a month seems a little on the rushed side. Smith officially turns the job down so suddenly Catt gets the nod. You're right, I don't have the information but to me it seems precipitous.

That said, SL seems like a no nonsense guy and I wish him the best for the season to come as he has one of the most arduous test schedules this year if not the most arduous. So many challenging games and I hope the knives don't come out if results don't go England's way. If England wins a series in SA he´ll be lauded a genius and the RFU will rest on their laurels for the better half of the decade.

Kia sorry mate but you are wrong wrong wrong.

Catt is the temporary coach of the backs for the upcoming SA tour. It is FAST approaching and they actually did need to have someone in situ.

There's nothing wrong with hiring headhunters if you can fford them its what you do with what they give you that counts.

Smith said he was a little put off head job based on the JD. No one else did.

Ultimately he was offered different positions anyway.

As discussed above Smith shies away from ultimate head coach responsibility so perhaps that is at the heart of it rather than the form of words on the JD?

Kia, Catt was banded about as a temporary coach for the SA tour. Smith was never going to be coach for SA tour. Do you think maybe, just maybe, they weren't waiting on Smith's final decision before sorting out the temporary coach as it has no baring on the temporary coach?

They didn't know Lancaster would get the job before Christmas. He was openly declared a temporary coach for the 6 nations as they didn't want to rush for a replacement for Johnson.

I honestly fail to see why you have an issue with them hiring a firm that specialises in recruitment to aid in the recruitment (unless you have a issue with recruitment specialists in general). Remember they didn't appoint the person, that was done by a panel of Richie, O'Shay, McGeechan, Hill and Andrew.

I haven't seen the job description but I would be interested if you still have a copy or a link.

Fair enough boys. You have enlightened me and I stand corrected.

Seems fair enough to have someone as a coach there for the SA tour.

Here's a copy of the job description Hammer. I won't get into a debate about headhunting firms or recruitment agencies but you're correct in suspecting my own views are not complimentary and I say that as a person who worked for such a firm in my brief stint in London.

England Head Coach
Salary:

Start Date

Job Description

Reporting to the RFU CEO, the England Head Coach will be in overall charge of the Elite Player Squad and will produce and implement a winning team strategy in the period up to and including the home Rugby World Cup in 2015.

Working with the Professional Rugby Department the Head Coach will have a major input into the strategies that enable the successful development of players for the senior England team.

Key attributes:

A background of demonstrable high-level achievement in a senior coaching role at either national or regional level or within a high performing, senior professional club within rugby is essential.

The role requires an influential personality who is highly self-motivated, an instigator and driver of progress, with a commitment to delivering success. A high level of integrity and credibility within the game, together with the ability to develop effective working relationships both internally and externally, is essential.

The role:

Develop and implement an agreed playing & coaching strategy

Take a practical lead as Head Coach to develop an agreed playing and coaching strategy and appoint a complementary coaching and support team who are aligned to that strategy. Possess the technical and tactical respect and credibility to implement this strategy through an integrated approach of best coaching practice.

Lead and develop a culture of success and shared values

Develop, implement and monitor the values, disciplines and behaviours that ensure a high performing team culture based on openness, honesty, trust and confidence.

Lead the people and processes required to create a successful England Team

Demonstrate the necessary planning, organisation and leadership skills to get the very best out of management and players to create a winning England team.

Relationship management

Win the hearts and minds of the supporters, sponsors, clubs and the game in England as a whole to support and promote the England Rugby brand.

Media and commercial focus

Work with the media and commercial partners to build productive relationships with these groups at all times. Ensure compliance from the players with any contractual obligations with all partners.

In fairness I read a version that isolated certain points and it doesn't read as bad as I first thought.

So I formally retract my bitter comments and ask for your forgiveness. (That was the closest to a dove I could find and I thought this looked closer to the meaning than the cactus to an olive branch.

Lancaster had said that he would have liked another coach for South Africa due to the larger squad size. I wouldn't have been surprised if Farrell/Smith had be appointed AND Catt still went with them.

You can blame/applaud Roy Keane for Smiths decision to turn down England. In his blog on the Rugby Site he said that Roy Keane gave a talk to the All Blacks back in 2008 and Roy said that it was a big regret he had going to Celtic after Man Utd. - he knew he had made a mistake the minute he put on the Celtic jersey.

http://www.therugbysite.com/blog_posts/195-lancaster-impressed-but-the-chiefs-is-where-the-heart-is-by-wayne-smith

I dont know what is Lancaster smoking on when he talked about still being able to use Smith. Seems like his mind went on vacation. Of course is Smith turns down the offer to coach because he can't think about help England and conflict with his national identity then why he wants to help England for free? This all seems like desperate man who made to look a bit foolish by bad choice and loose mouth.

anotherworldofpain wrote:I dont know what is Lancaster smoking on when he talked about still being able to use Smith. Seems like his mind went on vacation. Of course is Smith turns down the offer to coach because he can't think about help England and conflict with his national identity then why he wants to help England for free? This all seems like desperate man who made to look a bit foolish by bad choice and loose mouth.

I think that it is you who look very foolish and dareisay it spiteful in your rush to condemn Lancaster. It was Catt who made the comment. Thanks for your really helpfull insights there though.

Oh then I am ashamed about this comment. I read some time ago on a train and store it in part of my mind that must be rusty and need some oil. I stand by saying whoever say this though is similar in rusty part of thinking.

Interesting turn of events in an article from the Torygraph today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9260989/Leicester-head-coach-Matt-OConnor-opens-the-door-to-attacking-future-with-England.html#disqus_thread

A bit out of left field, but looking at the Tigers form over the past 4-5 months it could work very well.

I'd probably take O'Connor, but I'm interested to see how Catt does. If he does well in South Africa the job is his, it's as simple as that.

indeed robbo, let's see how Catt turns out. He's certainly got something to proove, and he wants it - a combination that means he'll push himself and others around him and is a good hotbed for innovational play.

Intresting times ...