Robert Kitson (of the Grauniad)'s Heino and AP dream teams

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 01 May 2012, 3:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

My Heineken Cup dream team and outstanding Premiership XV of 2011-12

Already we can ink in a host of players who have proved a cut above, with 10 of the side representing Irish provinces

What does the future of European rugby look like? If it involves games as good as Sunday's mesmerising Heineken Cup semi-final in Bordeaux there will be few complaints. It felt, at times, as if Leinster and Clermont Auvergne were attempting to outdo each other in the same way Olympic divers impress the judges with the technical merit of their routines. The degree of difficulty was, at times, stunning.

The majestic power of Clermont's rugby in the first half and Leinster's dagger-sharp counter-thrust immediately after the interval will dwell in the memory. So too will Leinster's last-gasp defiance when victory was being wrenched from them. Most impressive of all, though, was the ability of so many players to perform at such a high level whilst on a competitive knife-edge. Cometh the hour, cometh almost everyone.

It certainly helped to nail down several positions in a European 'dream team' based on this season's tournament. The Leinster-Ulster finale at Twickenham is still to come but already we can ink in a host of players who have proved a cut above the ordinary. By my reckoning 10 of the side represent Irish provinces which might seem a lot until you study the list of deserving names.

The full team is at the bottom of this piece, deliberately juxtaposed with my stab at the outstanding XV from this season's Premiership. Maybe you would expect the former to look a stronger unit but it serves to underline that the Premiership is no longer an irresistible magnet for the game's superstars. No full-back in the UK, for example, can currently match Rob Kearney. How many scrum-halves can do what Ruan Pienaar does with the same economy of effort? Is there anyone out there on two legs doing what Stephen Ferris does on one?

It takes genuine class even to attempt to play the way Clermont and Leinster did. Did you see the gorgeous offload thrown by the young French up-and-comer Jean-Marcel Buttin? The result might have been different, too, had Wayne Barnes sin-binned a Leinster forward for repeated first-half infringements as he really should have done. The abiding impression, nevertheless, should not be the refereeing but a recognition that the general standard was at least two rungs higher than an average, safety-first Premiership game.

Part of the reason is that the respective thoroughbreds on display, particularly the Irish ones, have been pretty lightly raced. Cian Healy has featured in just seven Pro12 games all season, one of them as a substitute. Even taking the World Cup and Six Nations into account that still leaves a fair amount in the tank for Europe. Ulster's hooker Rory Best has played just four league games. England's Dan Cole, in contrast, is about to play his 12th Premiership match of the season. It might help explain why Irish sides tend to be sharper and better primed for Heineken success at this time of year.

Leinster's triumph, either way, has to be ranked among their finer achievements. Clermont, as we have noted before, are not short of a euro or five. Their squad is littered with serious talent and it would be no surprise if they go on to win the Top 14 title. They lacked two crucial elements, though. One was Brian O'Driscoll, who gave an age-defying performance which could cause even New Zealand to think twice ahead of Ireland's impending series against the All Blacks. The other? Jonny Sexton. One of these days he will play for his country the way he plays for Leinster and the whole world will take notice. Both he and O'Driscoll, despite his injury problems this winter, fully deserve their places in a distinctly Irish-themed Heineken team of the season. The English and the Welsh, irrespective – or maybe because – of this year's Six Nations, are conspicuous by their absence.

Heineken Cup dream team 2011-12: R Kearney (Leinster); I Nacewa (Leinster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster), W Fofana (Clermont), S Sivivatu (Clermont); J Sexton (Leinster), R Pienaar (Ulster); C Healy (Leinster), R Strauss (Leinster), D Zirakashvili (Clermont), B Thorn (Leinster) J Muller (Ulster), S Ferris (Ulster), T Dusautoir (Toulouse), N Talei (Edinburgh).

Outstanding Premiership XV: M Brown (Harlequins); J May (Gloucester), G Lowe (Harlequins), B Barritt (Saracens), J Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester); N Evans (Harlequins), H Thomas (Exeter Chiefs); M Ayerza (Leicester), S Brits (Saracens), D Cole (Leicester), G Robson (Harlequins), M Botha (Saracens), T Croft (Leicester), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Waldrom (Leicester).

Do you agree? Thorn's inclusion on the basis of just two games seems a tad generous to me. Also only one player not from a semi-final team? Lazy journalism, really a Heino team of the semis?

by geoff998rugby Wed 02 May 2012, 12:47 pm

Beshocked you are guilty of the crime I was accused of - being selective.
You need to look at the full team over a full season to get a full picture.

e.g. POC was injured for a large part of the season - such a circumstance needs to be taken into account.

I have suggested a way of resolving - anyone care to do as I suggest. We have all summer to lay out the ground rules

by beshocked Wed 02 May 2012, 12:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:The Irish teams do have the advantage of having the Pro12 (a less important league) to rest players. Don't deny the truth.

Less important certainly to English and French clubs. Less important to English and French club players. But why so 'less important' to the teams in it?

Explain?

The bread and butter for the Pro12 teams are obviously the internationals and most importantly the Heineken Cup. You only need to look at the amount of times the likes of Sexton,Heaslip,SOB,Kearney have played in the Pro12 compared to the HC. To be fair they are used for the Munster games - the only games deemed of importance.

Ferris and Best - 4 Pro12 games. 8 HC games this season. Hmmm I wonder which is more important.... the Pro12 or HC.

That's an explanation of how 'some' of the Pro12 teams approach the league - not an explanation of how 'less important the league is'.

For your theory to work you need to suggest that Leinster and perhaps Munster and Ospreys are always so stuffed with quality players that they can afford to rest their more experienced players and still compete in the Pro12 with their second string/young rookies. You'd have to assume that because none of those sides sacrifice Pro12 to HC. Look at the records of the competition and look who are habitually on top. You don't say a league is less important when you're designing your season to win it.

What you're really saying is that AP is more competitive. More teams with a chance of winning it. Well, no. Best sides in AP are still best sides...poor sides in AP are as poor as the poor ones in Pro12. So there is always a small enough unit close to the top of AP that are competing for the title - no relegation worries, just concentration on the top. Besides, if they always play their best players then of course it will be.... competitve. But schoolboy rugby is competitve when you get two equal sides lashing into each other. Competitveness doesn't necessarily mean quality and it certainly doesn't have to mean 'important'.

So where do the young players that cover for the Leinster big boys learn their trade to compete in the man's event of HC? They play in the Pro12, just as you say. But no, they don't take the competition lightly - that's their shop window for promotion. That's their time to show what they can do, a time to catch the attention of the coach, a time to perform and a time to win something for their team. Leinster take the Pro12 very seriously. Coming half way down in the league would be a bad year... because coming half way down in a league would be suggesting lack of progress in the young hopefuls needed to be up to HC standard. They are learning how to be that standard not in the HC itself but in Pro12.

Being the best is the motivation - not the specific league. League is best when fighting for league - HC is better when fighting for it. One produces the desire for the other. And as I said, the same trail appeals to all English players who want AP titles AND would love some HC ones too.

The stats show that the likes of O Gara,Sexton,Heaslip,Ferris barely ever play in the Rabo 12 which brings down the quality. They are saved for the big games generally.

It devalues the league when most of the best players don't play most of the time. You agree with me - the Pro12 is a development league.

by HammerofThunor Wed 02 May 2012, 12:56 pm

Beshocked, if you want to claim that you need to back it up with more a couple of stats.

What you need to do is examine the number of games played by all the players in the PRO12 and Jeff. Seperate them into the number played in each competition. Then take into account time available (enforced rest periods, injuries, etc). Add in some weighting for mid week games due to delays. Do that for a few seasons (I reckon 4 would be a good start). Then we can down to some serious stat crunching.

Or you use the old

everyone knows it

line, that tends to work for me.

by geoff998rugby Wed 02 May 2012, 12:58 pm

Ferris is held together by sticking plaster his knees simply cannot take more than 10 to 15 games a season.

He wasn't rested - he was incapable of playing through injury

by beshocked Wed 02 May 2012, 12:58 pm

I prefer the latter. The former sounds too complicated.

We all know the Pro12 is a development league anyway.

by HammerofThunor Wed 02 May 2012, 12:59 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote: The PRO12 is less important to me and how do I know that anyone else truly exist? I don't therefore it is a less important league.

Compared to the Pro 12 the Aviva is less important to me - your point is

That is the point. "Importance" is comepletely subjective. The most important (if we use the term to mean the one I want to watch the most and care the most about) is the English Premiership. Mainly because I'm interested in English rugby. That means squat to any other fan. Even if every other english rugby fan disagreed it doesn't change what I'm interested in.

Considering I actually wrote

and how do I know anyone else exists

I thought it would be picked up that I was talking about me.

by HammerofThunor Wed 02 May 2012, 1:01 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Ferris is held together by sticking plaster his knees simply cannot take more than 10 to 15 games a season.

He wasn't rested - he was incapable of playing through injury

Just a coincidence that he was availavable for all the HEC games and only 4 PRO12? That's unfortunate since they're equally valued.

by geoff998rugby Wed 02 May 2012, 1:29 pm

Trouble is he played regularly from the 5/11 to 13/1 - missing only 2 games (through injury).

He then was unable to play in the early 6N games and came back not fully fit. He then played against Aironi in the Pro 12 (clearly a key fixture) and the Munster game straight after. There is no way he could have played before the Aironi game.

We then played him in a SF because we had big problems in the backrow, no Henry because of injury, even though clearly not fully fit.

Given his injury problems any English club would have done exactly as we did.

by SecretFly Wed 02 May 2012, 1:38 pm

beshocked wrote:It devalues the league when most of the best players don't play most of the time. You agree with me - the Pro12 is a development league.

It doesn't devalue it - it shows you what you have, it shows you the future and it sustains momentum in Both League And HC. BTW, the future can be a very exciting prospect and you only have to look at Irish Provincial crowds (crowds that know the stars won't always be playing!) to let you in on how ambition to win (the league) added to the excitement of seeing young players who might hint at a future can be. The league doesn't need the big stars, the fans don't always expect them and there is absolutely no way that makes the season any less interesting or exciting.

You mention O'Gara. Let's use him then. Even if he did play more games; he like all the more senior players (everywhere, not just in Ireland) he knows when to turn up the performance and when to cruise to perhaps save himself for bigger fish or bigger games. Every seasoned professional knows how to balance their season - and if they don't, they're still young things trying to excite all the time (another bonus of younger players playing in Pro12). But back to O'Gara and players like him. You might believe that he and others would play at HC tempo against a mid to low ranked Pro12 opponent but you'd be wrong of course. So where's the deal in having always your 'best' players on display? It's no guarantee of either increased competitiveness or a happier crowd. Irish Provinces know what they want and their fans want the same and accept the managing that needs to be done in a season to effect it. They appreciate that they will not always see their big stars (Nacewa is one of the biggest and plays very very often Wink

)... and games don't suffer because of it as there are always different things to be looking for.

by mankiaow Wed 02 May 2012, 2:05 pm

I'm confused. In order for the Rabo to be considered inferior and by extension teams with bigger squads being able to rest players, the standard in the AP must be higher. Correct?

So if a team like Connaught, who certainly do not have the strength in depth to rest players and who regularly finish in the lower reaches of the Rabo, can run(and beat) some of the top AP sides close, what would they do to the Worcesters and Newcastles of this world?

And what does that say about the relative quality of each of the leagues?

Or is that too much of a generalisation? Just like speculating that the AP is a superior competition.

by beshocked Wed 02 May 2012, 2:59 pm

Mankiaow Connacht managed to win one game against an AP team. Upsets happen.

What would they do to the Newcastles and Worcester's of this world? It would be equal - they are on a similar level.

Connacht are a small club, don't build them up too high.

I can't take a competition seriously when mostly under strength sides are put out. It's why I don't like the LV cup.

Is the AP superior? That's debatable. The Pro12 and AP serve different purposes. One has higher emphasis on developing for the Heineken Cup and internationals whereas the other tries to find a good balance.

by **profitius** Wed 02 May 2012, 3:12 pm

beshocked wrote:Geoff you only need to look at how few games the likes O Gara,O Connell play.

Compare Botha of Saracens against O Connell of Munster

Botha has played 16 AP games, 6 HC games.

O Connell has played 5 Rabo games and 7 HC games

Owen Farrell vs Ronan O Gara

O Farrell has played 15 AP games, 7 HC games

Ronan O Gara has played 6 Pro12 games (2 being vs Leinster), 7 HC games

And how about the world cup and 6 nations matches. They're much more intense than league matches.

by mankiaow Wed 02 May 2012, 3:17 pm

I agree that Connaught are small and indeed almost disappeared a few years ago but I would argue that the fact that they held their own, if you like, with some of the APs better teams suggests to me that classing the Rabo as a development league in comparison to the AP is incorrect.

To me, that is more solid evidence of the relative strengths of both leagues than just speculating on whether teams give their players an inordinate amount of downtime or not.

by beshocked Wed 02 May 2012, 4:01 pm

Coming bottom of your HC group with 1 win is not holding your own. Connacht were well beaten. The Amlin is a more suitable competition for them.

The Pro 12 is a development league. Doesn't mean it is any better or worse than the AP or Top 14. Just has different priorities.

The lack of any sort of pressure - HC qualification is all but guaranteed and no relegation means Pro12 teams can sit back, relax and focus on the bread and butter which are the internationals and the HC.

by mankiaow Wed 02 May 2012, 4:13 pm

Well then it might be a good idea for some to change their priorities or adapt to the circumstances.

by beshocked Wed 02 May 2012, 4:19 pm

True. I think the Welsh teams have done really well with the Pro12 structure as it is. With the internationals anyway.

Ireland have obviously made the most of the Pro12.

The Italian and Scottish teams need to follow their example.

Make more of the automatic HC space every season to truly develop and make themselves proper threats in the HC.

by yappysnap Wed 02 May 2012, 5:20 pm

Just to get back to the team of the HC, i'd have liked to have seen Brown in there.

Otherwise I expect next season that the Eng clubs will put up a better fight. This season I feel was a bit of an anomaly for them and shouldn't be worried about too much.

by HammerofThunor Wed 02 May 2012, 6:27 pm

yappysnap wrote:Just to get back to the team of the HC, i'd have liked to have seen Brown in there.

It that what this thread was originally about? Shocked

Kearney's done pretty well for himself so Brown would be on the bench at best.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 02 May 2012, 6:33 pm

beshocked wrote:
J May and JSD ahead of Wade and Benjamin?

S Brits is a quality player but has not been great this season. Still makes it because lack of challengers.

most consistent fly half IMO has been Charge down Charlie - particularly tearing his old club Sale to shreds, being instrumental in the 50 point demolition at WR and his decisive kicks to beat Saints at VR.

Mouritz Botha has been average this season in the AP.

Johnson should be the blindside.

My team would be

15.Brown
14.Wade
13.Joseph
12.Barritt
11.Benjamin
10.Hodgson
9.Dickson
8.Waldrom
7.Robshaw
6.Johnson
5.Robson
4.Kohn
3.Johnston
2.Brits
1.Marler

Yeah but a fair argument can be made for Evans as he was so instrumental in creating our 14 game winning streak and when we were playing our best rugby he was keeping the backline flowing.

For me, however, I think that Evans easily wins the first half of the season, Flood the second and Hodgson 2nd place in both so any of those 3 seems a fair call

by Feckless Rogue Wed 02 May 2012, 6:35 pm

Anyone want to add a PRO12 or Top 14 team of the year?

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 9:08 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:
beshocked wrote:
J May and JSD ahead of Wade and Benjamin?

S Brits is a quality player but has not been great this season. Still makes it because lack of challengers.

most consistent fly half IMO has been Charge down Charlie - particularly tearing his old club Sale to shreds, being instrumental in the 50 point demolition at WR and his decisive kicks to beat Saints at VR.

Mouritz Botha has been average this season in the AP.

Johnson should be the blindside.

My team would be

15.Brown
14.Wade
13.Joseph
12.Barritt
11.Benjamin
10.Hodgson
9.Dickson
8.Waldrom
7.Robshaw
6.Johnson
5.Robson
4.Kohn
3.Johnston
2.Brits
1.Marler

Yeah but a fair argument can be made for Evans as he was so instrumental in creating our 14 game winning streak and when we were playing our best rugby he was keeping the backline flowing.

For me, however, I think that Evans easily wins the first half of the season, Flood the second and Hodgson 2nd place in both so any of those 3 seems a fair call

Chequeredjersey cannot give absolutely every space to a Quins man.

In the fly half battle vs Charlie at Twickenham Evans lost.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 12:06 pm

Oh, I agree that an all Quins team (or even more than 6-7 players) is just stupid, I'm just saying that there is logic behind Kitson's choice of Evans. I'm not sure who I'd pick- if I had to pick a FH based on ability or who I'd want it'd be Evans but on form across the season, I suppose you should pick the one who has been consistent throughout

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 12:29 pm

Personally I think Evans is a bit overrated. Only because it's hard to gauge how good he really is compared to the best fly halves in the world.

He's a good player no doubt about it but in my opinion at club level he's not head and shoulders above the likes of Hodgson and Flood.

As you say ChequeredJersey - 1st period of season goes to Evans, 2nd goes to Flood, most consistent throughout season is C.Hodgson.

The top 3 fly halves in regards to club form this season are clearly these three.

That's how I see it.

by HammerofThunor Thu 03 May 2012, 1:11 pm

beshocked wrote:Personally I think Evans is a bit overrated. Only because it's hard to gauge how good he really is compared to the best fly halves in the world.

He's a good player no doubt about it but in my opinion at club level he's not head and shoulders above the likes of Hodgson and Flood.

As you say ChequeredJersey - 1st period of season goes to Evans, 2nd goes to Flood, most consistent throughout season is C.Hodgson.

The top 3 fly halves in regards to club form this season are clearly these three.

That's how I see it.

All opinions of course but I'd disagree. Maybe even upper chest. Based on top form, average form and worst form (generally occurs when Evans plays while injured due to the step down being massive)

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 2:43 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
beshocked wrote:Personally I think Evans is a bit overrated. Only because it's hard to gauge how good he really is compared to the best fly halves in the world.

He's a good player no doubt about it but in my opinion at club level he's not head and shoulders above the likes of Hodgson and Flood.

As you say ChequeredJersey - 1st period of season goes to Evans, 2nd goes to Flood, most consistent throughout season is C.Hodgson.

The top 3 fly halves in regards to club form this season are clearly these three.

That's how I see it.

All opinions of course but I'd disagree. Maybe even upper chest. Based on top form, average form and worst form (generally occurs when Evans plays while injured due to the step down being massive)

? Upper chest? I don't quite understand this comment of yours.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 2:46 pm

He's saying that he thinks Evans is even further than Head and Shoulders ahead of his rivals by extending a metaphor/allegory (whichever this technically is)

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 2:59 pm

Fair enough if that's how HammerofThunor feels. I just don't see it personally.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 3:01 pm

I doubt you'll find many Quins supporters who don't think he's the best FH in the Northern Hemisphere to be honest

by Feckless Rogue Thu 03 May 2012, 3:03 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I doubt you'll find many Quins supporters who don't think he's the best FH in the Northern Hemisphere to be honest

2nd best.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 3:09 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:I doubt you'll find many Quins supporters who don't think he's the best FH in the Northern Hemisphere to be honest

2nd best.

Fair enough, Danny Cipriani is back in town again

by Feckless Rogue Thu 03 May 2012, 4:32 pm

Exactly

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 4:43 pm

More seriously, I'm assuming you are going with the Johnny Sexton claim for that title?

by Feckless Rogue Thu 03 May 2012, 4:59 pm

But of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fn1qyoDzOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNAB4Ru7VwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-yOjOcctXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWfeEbZMrk

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 5:06 pm

Understandable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3StR2BNTGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLe3NHaGCOk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8_O8UUDek

by ChequeredJersey Thu 03 May 2012, 5:09 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nj0s_WWjyE#t=01m21s

by Feckless Rogue Thu 03 May 2012, 5:21 pm

by thebluesmancometh Thu 03 May 2012, 5:45 pm

beshocked

In fairness you've picked poor examples, both Ogara and Oconnell are old men now and need to be looked after, and both their positions are under threat from younger opposition.

Keatley is the top point scorer in the league and played a few HC games, and Ryan also played a ton of both Rabo and HC games!

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 5:52 pm

by thebluesmancometh Thu 03 May 2012, 5:54 pm

Ignore me mate, it's been a long day, I replied to an earlier post!

by beshocked Thu 03 May 2012, 6:04 pm

ROG and O Connell aren't poor examples. They are Munster's main men - their two most well known players.

Do you mean Donnacha Ryan? Didn't realise 7 games in the Pro12 counted as a ton.

Keatley is nowhere near as high profile as ROG. Not even as well known as someone like O.Farrell.

by HammerofThunor Thu 03 May 2012, 6:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Fair enough if that's how HammerofThunor feels. I just don't see it personally.

That's why I stressed it was opinion. I haven't seen many Sarries games this season (and I've seen more Quins games). I've also not seen that many Hodgson games in general but I've seen a lot of Evans' best games since he's been a Quins (not a Quins supporter BTW). Nobody sees all the games so it's all just based on the limited view we each have, our own bias, state of mind when we saw particular 'good' or 'bad' plays, etc, etc

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