French and English threat to the HC

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

The story also mentioned that two (un-named) of the Welsh regions were considering the same action.

Personally I think 20 teams in 5 pools is just as ridiculous as 24 in 6. I also believe that it is a European competition and should have Full European involvement. In the end this is more about money than anything else. French and English TV deals bring the most money in, which is then spread amongst all the participating Unions equally.

I would make the top competition 16 teams. I would admit teams who make the playoffs in AP and Rabo, plus the four semi-finalists in the Top 14 play-offs (they have 6 teams in the play-offs with 3-6 playing a prelim round).

That leaves 4 spots. One spot for defending champions, leaves 3. I would guarantee every country an entrant so in the unlikely occurrence that the play-offs in Rabo were occupied by a single Country that would use up these 3 spots. Each spoy not used would be awarded for performance in Europe (such as Second Tier winner, HC runner up etc)

Its hardly suprising that England and France want to change the rules as the Celtic Leauge teams are doing so well!

Possibly a touch of sour grapes?

Seagultaf wrote:Its hardly suprising that England and France want to change the rules as the Celtic Leauge teams are doing so well!

Possibly a touch of sour grapes?

I guess that explains why 2 Welsh regions are consdiering joining them in serving notice

I would be fascinated to hear which Welsh regions are involved and their motivations.

Where money is involved sour grapes dont come into it....

Guess this could be the end of the best competition in European and probably world rugby at club level cause some Unions arent winning anything, this for me is comparable to Scotland and Italy pulling out of the 6N.

If this is the end of the Heineken, I have no doubt how history will look at this - some very very bad losers.

The French and English have the money and audience. The four PRO12 nations have the 4 unions and therefore the voting power. I presume there'll be a compromise. Although it'll be interesting to see if a couple of the regions break ranks? What would the WRU's postion be? Frankly, the idea of the English and French just playing each other and not playing anyone else, because they couldn't beat them, is a bit ridiculous, and would set back European rugby quite a bit.

I wonder would the RFU and FFR be on exactly the same page as the clubs? Or would they be more sympathetic to the idea of all 6 unions taking part in top flight European rugby? They may be a bit less concerned by money and a bit more concerned about the overall health and growth of European rugby.

It would be a grim day for rugby if the greed and self interest of the French and English clubs did irreparable damage to rugby in the smaller nations. Especially after the brilliant strides made by the Irish and Welsh in particular, but also the Italians, in the last decade.

The nub of the issue is that they genuinely believe the Celtic nations are better prepared for the HC than they are. But why, oh why, don't they look at changing their own setup? It's widely accepted by everyone in France (except the club owners) that their schedule is madness.

It's also been noted by many rugby pundits in all nations that the Irish teams, and Leinster in particular, are simply playing an innovative brand of attacking rugby that is a cut above what the English and French produce. To many teams in both leagues play a game of simply getting big guys to run straight into each other. The coaching is conservative and resistant to change and very insular in France in particular. Joe Scmidt has referred to French domestic rugby as a man up-athon. Outside Toulouse and Clermont the old French flair and intelligience has all but disappeared. Why isn't this being looked at?

Anyway I hope a compromise is reached. It probably will. This is probably just grand standing a threatening in the run up to new negotiations. And I'm not really concerned about my team. I think Leinster will continue to thrive if under a new Anglo-French imposed setup with new qualification rules. It's the fact that the clubs would happily steam-roll Italian and Scottish rugby into the 2nd tier in pursuit of their own self interest that worries me.

I'd say the SRU and FIR are nervously looking at this and hoping for Irish and Welsh support.

I don't think the IRFU, SRU or FIR will agree to this and in riposte to being dumped out of the Heineken, I can see some Unions using Six Nations withdrawal as a bargaining chip.

None of the nations could afford to leave the 6N - financial suicide

I understand the rhetoric Artful but that would make the financial position for bodies such as the IRFU much, much worse.....

The reality is that who plays the piper plays the tune - I dont necessarily agree with it but ultimately this comes down to the difference between privately owned clubs and centrally controlled franchises and that conflict in structures in a professional environment will always cause a difference.

You're right of course, but if it comes down to it, I don't think the English and French will allow to Heineken to go down the pot, there won't be anything like the interest in a French-English cup as there is in the HC. My point was that if the English and French use pulling out of the HC as a bargaining chip, who knows what the Italian and Celtic Unions will respond to this, all in all very damaging for European rugby.

Well although a welsh region is yet to win a HC the head to head stats v English teams is quite flattering to the Welsh regions, so yes I would say sour grapes ,but the English know one way they can out muscle the celtic nations and that is financially!
Even the Scottish teams are getting the better of the English teams in europe! That's got to hurt.
In my eyes the English prem is a victim of its own success, they took on to many journey men collecting a pension over the last few years.

Perhaps another way of looking at it is if french and english participation wanes with the use of Academy teams (like the welsh do in the LV), then Sky Sports and Heineken would be looking at a very different financial model.

The comments about looking within the french and english leagues for improvement is a valid one. However to give one example this season (there are others) Bath went to Dublin before xmas with three Hookers, Moody, Fearns, Skirving and Hipkiss all injured and Barclay just back after eight months out, Donald newly arrived and three academy players on the bench. They faced a Leinster side with numerous (double figures) current internationals from one test side, with massive experience, with just one major omission in BOD. The result was a forgone conclusion.

The above is not Leinsters problem but as stated above a commercial operations will simply not throw good money after bad, it is probably as simple as that.

Attempted Bullying by the English - I frankly do not believe the French are serious about this but even if the are there is no chance of change like that. The HC is a great tourney.
Mischief making IMO

Unless the French are up to old tricks,perhaps they will pull out as soon as the English make know to all their intentions
Leave them standing alone.

The French and English want fewer teams so they get a higher percentage of the pot. However fewer games is bound to mean less advertising revenue, and the competition won't have the cachet of being truly European but rather a glorified Tri-League play-off so will it attract the same interest?

Are we going to end up with a European super league?

Good question Stand, but it doesnt change the fundamental difference between clubs and centrally owned franchises and consolidation of internationals in a few professional teams.

I find the rugby structures, both north and south, to be as interesting as the game itself these days, which has veered too far towards RL.

The Aussie cricket model, subsequently copied by Sanzar has a lot to answer for !

TJ wrote:Attempted Bullying by the English - I frankly do not believe the French are serious about this but even if the are there is no chance of change like that. The HC is a great tourney.
Mischief making IMO

The French league appear to be the prime movers in this proposed development - I've read the article. They came up with the 5 pools idea and who goes through (5 + 3). That is a bit of a flaw imo, because both the HC & ECC have been improved with the parachuting of 3 HC teams into the ECC.

However, a qualification criteria based on league position has some merit, so long as all the 6N countroes are represented. Which, in my book, means the Rabo needs to look at its qualification criteria.

I've heard the "Why should we change?" arguments from fans of Rabo teams (mainly Irish); but equally, why shouldn't you? The Rabo would become more competitive at a stroke, and that would improve some of the woeful atendances at club games in some countries.

The biggest problem is that the English and French would have an absolute guarentee of 6 teams each whereas they Irish, Scottish, Italian and Welsh unions would have to battle it out for our 6.

I presume they revenue would be divided in a similar fashion?

Is that not reason enough why we shouldn't?

Very good point Mrs P but presumably the revenue is split three ways much the same way as now ? Whilst the the french and english splits would undoubtedly go to the participating teams the reamaining third would be presumably be split between the Unions for their franchises?

I can see how there might subsequently become a bun fight within the R12 for those teams that might consistently enter the competition.

The point that often also gets missed is that there is another perfectly viable european competition which offers many teams a better chance of silverware. The Amblin gets a somewhat arrogant dismissal from many R12 fans.

The UEFA cup is perfectly valid competition in football and the Amblin should be the same.

Not necessarily MrsP. If the ERC decide that (in terms of country representation) that half a country's teams from the Rabo qualify based on league position. Then you guarantee representation from all six unions.

If the proposal happens it could be up to the Rabo to decide who qualifies. Top six in the league, or representation for all four countries.

I also like the French proposal for 2x3 blocks of games. That would level the playing field a bit too. How many times have I read fans posting, after a defeat in the Rabo, 'that was a long way from our HC team'.

I still maintain that, and have for a while, qualification for the HC on merit will benefit the Rabo, and its countries, to have a serious impact come the RWC.

Any improvement to the Rabo is welcome in my opinion. However not at the expense of the European Cup. That is counter productive.

Perhaps the idea that the league has a bigger impact on seeding would help the competitiveness of the league. Or perhaps the top 6 should qualify while the top 2 teams of the Italian league qualify, with Treviso and whoever the new team is entering a second string in there just to guarantee Italian participation.

Have no idea really but the league needs to be improved but not at the expense of the H-Cup.

Hound,

But what about the money?

Are you saying that the French and English will be happy to keep the current situation with regards to the proportion of the revenue that each union receive even though some countries will have far fewer teams?

Why should we have a smaller number of teams? It's not as if the Pro12 are lowering the quality of the competition now is it?

In this years competition the 12 teams finishing in 3rd or 4th place in their group were 5 English, 3 French, 2 Italian, 1 Welsh and 1 Irish team.

Of the 6 teams finishing bottom of their group 3 were French but somehow the French should continue to have 6 teams and the Rabo should lose 4? How does it improve the HEC to continue to have such poorly performing French teams allowed to remain in place of Irish, Scottish and Welsh sides?

French and English teams have to be realistic. Asking for the Pro12 to receive the same number of places as the other two leagues is strange; we have four nations represented whilst the other two leagues represent just one country. It's ridiculous to suggest the English should get the same representation as ALL the Celtic Nations.

Hound- the answer to why shouldn't the Rabo change is that it's not necessarily going to reflect the best teams if we go solely by league position. French and English fans seem to think teams can just wave a magic wand and players will be available. The truth is right now international players will start about 4 to 8 games in the league out of 22 and that number is only going to go down in the future.

The Pro12 is no guide to how a side will do in the Heineken Cup- see Edinburgh and Ulster this year- because teams can't select their best players more than a handful of times a season. All the Pro12 league placing tells us is how good squad depth is.

Notch wrote:French and English teams have to be realistic. Asking for the Pro12 to receive the same number of places as the other two leagues is strange; we have four nations represented whilst the other two leagues represent just one country. It's ridiculous to suggest the English should get the same representation as ALL the Celtic Nations.

Hound- the answer to why shouldn't the Rabo change is that it's not necessarily going to reflect the best teams if we go solely by league position. French and English fans seem to think teams can just wave a magic wand and players will be available. The truth is right now international players will start about 4 to 8 games in the league out of 22 and that number is only going to go down in the future.

The Pro12 is no guide to how a side will do in the Heineken Cup- see Edinburgh and Ulster this year- because teams can't select their best players more than a handful of times a season. All the Pro12 league placing tells us is how good squad depth is.

That's what's wrong with the league. Something needs to be changed.

The French and English clubs are just looking at having a more merit based system of qualification rather than by right. I certainly don't see money as a motivating factor in this.

Everyone acknowledges that many of the Rabo teams have what they refer to as their HC teams. That's a big issue. Munster showed the other Celtic nations what it was about by focussing on the HC - eventually they got their holy grail. Leinster and others have now followed the Munster template.

If French and English clubs had the option of doing that, they would start each HC campaign better than in recent seasons. But because our qualification criteria is tougher we don't have the option of resting players in the league, except for mandatory RFU rest periods under the EPS agreement (Ireland are not the only country with that rule in place).

I completely understand why some people wouldn't want to change anything. After all, turkeys would be unlikely to vote for Christmas.

The only worthwhile response to this from the Pro12 league teams is to propose a better alternative.

As I have argued previously, the Pro12 has to gets its own house in order on its own terms or else be forced to do something unpalatable by others.

League placing to determine seeding should be proposed by the Pro12 and for the Premiership and Top 14. The current ERC ranking of four years does not work.

The principle has to be accepted that European rugby participation for countries can mean either European Cup or the Challenge Cup. The number of teams automatically participating in the senior competition has to change. Equally, the Challenge Cup needs to be given greater prominence and money to soften that blow.

A top 8 from the Pro 12 with top 5 from the Premiership and Top 14 plus the two comp winners would give 20 teams if that's the number desired. Or else two more teams each for the English and French if they want to keep to 24. But theyre maxed at 7. The Pro12 teams need the European money more than their English and French counterparts, and that's the bottom line. The Pro12 teams can also threaten to boycott the comp too if they don't get a fair shake.

I would also link the seedings to how teams finished in the regular season, not after playoffs. This would give winning the league regular some additional value, but still allow for the knockout finals stages to happen to win the league cup/title.

And no more dropping down teams from the H Cup into the Challenge Cup. It's dominated too much by English and French clubs already - that needs to change too.

Changes are required root and branch in all the leagues and in the governing bodies.

It is quite apposite that these proposals are published on the day the announcements of election results in France and Greece and the spectre of another threat on the Euro looms large again.

At National level, it is time for a multi-divisional Euro-Nations competition to replace the ring-fenced 6Ns.
4Ns Div 1
4Ns Div 2
Europe East Div 1*
Europe West Div 1 *
* playoffs between leaders to determine promotion.

European Competition: 8x4 HEC qualifiers top two from each qualify for ko-stages, Bottom 16 form the Amlin competition

League structures 2x10-team in each: Another opportunity for the Rabo to enhance it's European League credentials.

Wage caps allowable, but based on affordability in terms of % of turnover.

This is mainly about money with power secondary.

From French and English clubs view points - they bring in the vast bulk of the money (French TV and advertisers provide around 50% of the income and if you allocate Sky revenues and UK advertising based on population almost 90% of total income is generated by English and French clubs - little comes from Irealand atm).

However they receive much less. Appearance money (bulk of that allocated as prize money is low) is allocatted pro-rata to teams entered.

So if we have £24m to be shared, then last season allocations were:

£7m to English clubs (then shared equally 12 ways)
£6m to French Clubs (then shared equally 14 ways)
£4m to Irish clubs (shared however IRU see fit)
£3m to Welsh Clubs (split 4 ways)
£2m each to Scottish and Italian Clubs


So from a French viewpoint an Irish club gets £1m appearance money, while their clubs get £400k.

In the end a compromise will be met - the French and English want a competition and need the others. the others need the money

Sorry guys, but I am a little confused here. I thought every nation or group of nations had a domestic comp (Rabo, top 14, Aviva) and from there you qualify for the HC.

Is the ERC and the HC the same thing?

Do I understand this correctly that they are suggesting to reduce the number of entrant teams in the HC to 20?

The ERC is the body charged with applying the organisation and application of European competition based on the rules dictated from its constituent unions.

biltongbek wrote:Sorry guys, but I am a little confused here. I thought every nation or group of nations had a domestic comp (Rabo, top 14, Aviva) and from there you qualify for the HC.

Is the ERC and the HC the same thing?

Do I understand this correctly that they are suggesting to reduce the number of entrant teams in the HC to 20?

Biltong, the ERC run the Heino and the Amlin Challenge Cups, qualification for those competitions being awarded on a set of rules agreed between the national bodies and the ERC. Every nation does have a domestic competition with the Rabo shared between the Celts and Italy

LondonTiger wrote:This is mainly about money with power secondary.

From French and English clubs view points - they bring in the vast bulk of the money (French TV and advertisers provide around 50% of the income and if you allocate Sky revenues and UK advertising based on population almost 90% of total income is generated by English and French clubs - little comes from Irealand atm).

However they receive much less. Appearance money (bulk of that allocated as prize money is low) is allocatted pro-rata to teams entered.

So if we have £24m to be shared, then last season allocations were:

£7m to English clubs (then shared equally 12 ways)
£6m to French Clubs (then shared equally 14 ways)
£4m to Irish clubs (shared however IRU see fit)
£3m to Welsh Clubs (split 4 ways)
£2m each to Scottish and Italian Clubs


So from a French viewpoint an Irish club gets £1m appearance money, while their clubs get £400k.

In the end a compromise will be met - the French and English want a competition and need the others. the others need the money

LT, absolutely right, this is all about power/money. It makes total sense for the English and French to give notice now, two years in advance of the current arrangements coming to an end, as that is the maximum notice that they are allowed to give - it puts everyone else on notice that there are going to be some tough negotiations ahead, but ultimately I would expect some change, but not a major overhaul of structure.

Portnoy wrote:Changes are required root and branch in all the leagues and in the governing bodies.

It is quite apposite that these proposals are published on the day the announcements of election results in France and Greece and the spectre of another threat on the Euro looms large again.

At National level, it is time for a multi-divisional Euro-Nations competition to replace the ring-fenced 6Ns.
4Ns Div 1
4Ns Div 2
Europe East Div 1*
Europe West Div 2 *
* playoffs between leaders to determine promotion.

European Competition: 8x4 HEC qualifiers top two from each qualify for ko-stages, Bottom 16 form the Amlin competition

League structures 2x10-team in each: Another opportunity for the Rabo to enhance it's European League credentials.

Wage caps allowable, but based on affordability in terms of % of turnover.

Loads of interesting ideas there, Portnoy, but I'm not sure that we should expect much change in terms of international competition.

Also I think that the Celts and Italy will determine that they are quite happy with the way in which the Rabo is going/growing, and are unlikely to allow outside influence to change that much.

Personally I think that there will be the usual compromises, in which the English and French will be allocated some additional money, but not much will change dramatically. Meanwhile, the RFU and FFR really ought to spend some time looking to get their own houses in order before they go telling other unions how to run their affairs.

There are decent arguments on both sides here. The HeC could be refined but it won't effect the outcome of the competition.

What is unfortunate with the nature of this draft by the English and French is that they are full of self interest rather than looking to make more money for everyone.

We all participate in the HEC, therefor it is imperative that a deal suits all and improves both the competition and the residuals to be recovered.

Maesteg, I was about to say the same, plenty of sensible comment and little or no wums so far....
I do think that some of the proposals would be an improvement, the seeding and the two blocks of pool games. I also think that the Amblin should get a far higher profile. European rugby will only improve and expand from the bottom up, despite the R12 consolidation of players.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Changes are required root and branch in all the leagues and in the governing bodies.

It is quite apposite that these proposals are published on the day the announcements of election results in France and Greece and the spectre of another threat on the Euro looms large again.

At National level, it is time for a multi-divisional Euro-Nations competition to replace the ring-fenced 6Ns.
4Ns Div 1
4Ns Div 2
Europe East Div 1*
Europe West Div 2 *
* playoffs between leaders to determine promotion.

European Competition: 8x4 HEC qualifiers top two from each qualify for ko-stages, Bottom 16 form the Amlin competition

League structures 2x10-team in each: Another opportunity for the Rabo to enhance it's European League credentials.

Wage caps allowable, but based on affordability in terms of % of turnover.

Loads of interesting ideas there, Portnoy, but I'm not sure that we should expect much change in terms of international competition.

Also I think that the Celts and Italy will determine that they are quite happy with the way in which the Rabo is going/growing, and are unlikely to allow outside influence to change that much.

Personally I think that there will be the usual compromises fudges], in which the English and French will be allocated some additional money, but not much will change dramatically. Meanwhile, the RFU and FFR really ought to spend some time looking to get their own houses in order before they go telling other unions how to run their affairs.

Fixed that for you As.

Reading through the posts, sometimes you'd be led to believe that there were hoards of Celtic sides rampaging through Europe destroying all before them.

There are of course. But all those Celts are Irish. Other Rabo sides have been noticeable in their absence.

Ok, I keep repeating this point but, then again, the topic also keeps repeating itself so what the heck. Here we go again:

So English rugby makes its demands - and are certainly entitled to put forward their proposals.
And the French clubs put forward their proposals - and are certainly entitled to put forward their views.

But this is not leagues putting forward their views, this is distinctly English and distinctly French clubs putting forward their view.

So............... since Irish provinces can't speak for Welsh regions or Scottish clubs or Italian clubs, I think the IRFU should leave them to look after their own interests and come out fighting using the same tactics as the English clubs and the French clubs. We should demand that in any negotiations our bottom dollar is Three qualifiers for the HC on automatic entry - just as the English clubs and the French clubs don't see their automatic 6 places under threat under their new proposals.

How's that in brief?

New HC format - 6 English Premiership HC spots by right, 6 French Top 14 HC by right, and 3 Irish Pro12 spots by right.

Over to the Welsh, the Scots and the Italians for their deamands/ideas/proposals.

Somehow, somewhere the English and the French think we all get bluffed out of National allocations by sly and continuous usage of the League pattern. But of course, 6 English clubs aren't IN the HC because they are from a League, they are in it because they are English - period.

I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

Its a shame that the traditional European powerhouses like Leicester, Bath and Saints have fallen so far of the pace that they are now just making up the numbers but the rest fo us shouldn't have to change the format to help them compete.

It would be a shame to lose the French clubs but hey ho shoite happens .

Secret, I think you will find if you read the article that the PRL had a unanimous vote on the proposal by the club membership. Whereas the Irish franchises put their hat into a combined league which was forced on the french and english leagues to accept???

Personally I do wonder if the longer term game is to 'encourage', probably in the first instance Wales, to readopt their own league structure, rather than the dash for HC glory by consolidating players into a couple of teams. There remains huge grievance on the reduced access to the top tier in Wales. In Ireland that seems to have been accepted whereas in both Wales and Scotland, fans have voted with their feet and attendances have crumbled.

For Ireland to demand three teams is fair enough, particularly on the back of recent success but they simply do not have the power base to even consider that approach.

Your last paragraph made me smile - even if it were true, perhaps you should ban the English - and watch the HC funding disappear with it....

JayMaster3000 wrote:

Notch wrote:French and English teams have to be realistic. Asking for the Pro12 to receive the same number of places as the other two leagues is strange; we have four nations represented whilst the other two leagues represent just one country. It's ridiculous to suggest the English should get the same representation as ALL the Celtic Nations.

Hound- the answer to why shouldn't the Rabo change is that it's not necessarily going to reflect the best teams if we go solely by league position. French and English fans seem to think teams can just wave a magic wand and players will be available. The truth is right now international players will start about 4 to 8 games in the league out of 22 and that number is only going to go down in the future.

The Pro12 is no guide to how a side will do in the Heineken Cup- see Edinburgh and Ulster this year- because teams can't select their best players more than a handful of times a season. All the Pro12 league placing tells us is how good squad depth is.

That's what's wrong with the league. Something needs to be changed.

Yes- less games, no games during international windows. If we want the Pro 12 to be an elite competition, cut it from 22 games a season to 11 games a season and introduce a reserve league for A teams. It's not a fault of the Pro12. It's a fault of there being too much rugby, so much that players can't possibly play a full season of international rugby and Heineken Cup and play every week in the Pro12; you're looking at taking years off guys careers. The only sane solution in terms of player welfare is to rest and rotate. Despite what owners of the big French and English clubs think, we have a major problem with too many fixtures and it's going to force the attrition rate of injury related retirements higher and higher. France and England can go down that path if they like but I hope we are more sensible.

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

Also remember this is a fight for power between Blanco's organisation (equivalent of PRL) and the FFR. The French clubs want a say in the voting/running of ERC - the FFR will not let them, going as far as to vote for the opposite candidate wanted by the French clubs for the Chairman of ERC.

A compromise was reached in 1999.

A compromise will be reached again. Hopefully to give us a better structured season and competition.

Recwatcher wrote:Secret, I think you will find if you read the article that the PRL had a unanimous vote on the proposal by the club membership. Whereas the Irish franchises put their hat into a combined league which was forced on the french and english leagues to accept???

Personally I do wonder if the longer term game is to 'encourage', probably in the first instance Wales, to readopt their own league structure, rather than the dash for HC glory by consolidating players into a couple of teams. There remains huge grievance on the reduced access to the top tier in Wales. In Ireland that seems to have been accepted whereas in both Wales and Scotland, fans have voted with their feet and attendances have crumbled.

For Ireland to demand three teams is fair enough, particularly on the back of recent success but they simply do not have the power base to even consider that approach.

Your last paragraph made me smile - even if it were true, perhaps you should ban the English - and watch the HC funding disappear with it....

I might say a lot that you disagree with Rec, but I don't say a lot that is factually incorrect. My last paragraph made you smile - but it's also so very true. I've heard one English person on a previous thread, that discussed the very same issue, talk about Irish provinces sacrificing 'national allocation' to the betterment of the league (Pro12). Well, that might all be so and I love to see interest in the betterment of the Pro12 league from across the water BUT - in the very same sentence the English poster (who was arguing that allocations would be better as League based) admitted that allocations are not at present league based but allocations given to nations ("national allocation") - It's up to nations then how they choose to issue that allocation - most use league placement but that isn't a requirement from ERC.

On the lack of POWER of Irish provinces to demand anything - I could use the same tag attached to English and French demands. They can obviously demand what the want - but can they enforce it? Nope. They don't have the power to enforce. That was my very point about including Irish demands in the soup of demands - we all can demand, none of us can enforce.

What the English and French clubs can do is to decide how best to move forward on their terms - if that's outside the HC format, so be it. But they can't enforce changes on Pro12 league, force Pro12 sides to adopt such changes or force Pro12 sides to compete in their self-styled alternative competition to HC.

So you say certain clubs have powers and other don't. I say power is in the eye of the beholder and if French and English sides think they can go it alone and call each other the best side in Europe on the basis of never encountering the Pro12 sides, then I say they are fooling themselves. They'll have to meet Pro12 sides to call themselves the best - and whatever that competition is, whether it is controlled by ERC or not, THAT will be the predominant European competition, and THAT competition will be negotiated by equals not by some heavy hitters thinking thay can bludgeon compliance out of Pro12 sides.

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

Also remember this is a fight for power between Blanco's organisation (equivalent of PRL) and the FFR. The French clubs want a say in the voting/running of ERC - the FFR will not let them, going as far as to vote for the opposite candidate wanted by the French clubs for the Chairman of ERC.

A compromise was reached in 1999.

A compromise will be reached again. Hopefully to give us a better structured season and competition.

LT, as usual you hit it on the head

Isn't Blanco a vice-president with the FFR now or something?

Amen to that LT and while we are on wish lists a competitive front five for Bath wouldnt go amiss too.... I haven't seen us shunted backwards like that for a while, Castro gave young Catt a harsh lesson!

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

I'm well aware of that but I don't think they should be allowed to hold the other unions to ransom because they are no longer winning the competition.

When they were losing to the French they didn't threaten to leave unless the French implemented a salary cap? Why? because they need the support of the French.

It's a cowardly and arrogant move by the English clubs who want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to be competitive on two fronts but simply don't have the quality or financial clout to do so.

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

I'm well aware of that but I don't think they should be allowed to hold the other unions to ransom because they are no longer winning the competition.

When they were losing to the French they didn't threaten to leave unless the French implemented a salary cap? Why? because they need the support of the French.

It's a cowardly and arrogant move by the English clubs who want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to be competitive on two fronts but simply don't have the quality or financial clout to do so.

rodders, it's more early-stage posturing at the moment, to be expected in all honesty

I find this facinating.

On the eve of an all Irish final, and in current Irish dominated tourny, while the Scots have pulled off their first ever semi, a recent Italian victory over France, and famous Italian clubs wins over French clubs the English an French decide they want less Rabo teams in the comp.

What a shock, the English teams are now group fodder, and the former powers such as Leicester facing lower tier ranking soon. The huge french squads are struggling to compete with settled and rested Rabo teams, the introduction of 5 superstars per season who all speak different languages was never going to work in rugby as it does in football. Toulons side is seriously scary but usefull? not really, they camp and watch jonny hit pot shots at goal!!

It's hard to use Wales as an exemplar rabo team as there is so much going on ATM, but the other 3 nations are getting stronger and stronger, and soon a Rabo domination of the HC is foreseeable, the french and english see this.

The rabo is doing what it was set up to do, consolidate 4 nations 'regions' and give them regular rugby to prep for HC and NT success... tick and tick!