French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

bluesman;

Leinster are a financial powerhouse because they've a) been successful on the pitch, hence attracting more fans b) marketed the province extremely well to areas outside the traditional heartland of the province c) been able to attract a good deal of sponsorship money as a result of the first two points and d) are subsidised by the IRFU in some ways (salaries for top players via central contracts etc.)

I would say if any of the Welsh or Scottish regions had done points a to c half as well they'd be pretty flush with cash too. I don't see thousands of fans from the valleys flocking to watch the Cardiff Blues the way you see people from outside Dublin coming to Leinster games.

That may seem trivial but it's not so long ago these people wouldn't even consider attending rugby matches.

they get a percentage rebate based on the tax they've paid when they retire if they stay in Ireland.

= Tax breaks!

Ulster had to invest heavily in foreign players to compete, and fair play to them. They signed world class in important positions.

The feeder club is the club lots of young players are sent to to gain experience and ply their trade in the Rabo and europe. When any of these players manage to excell they are sent back to the top 2! who do you think it is?

MY point is all teams have to rotate their sides throughout the season, however the Scots/Welsh/Italians don't have all the perks the 2 Irish teams have!

Quote Rodders: "Who's this feeder club?"

My understanding is (and forgive me if I'm wrong) that any system that fields "Provinces" instead of "Club team" will have numerous smaller clubs within that Province feeding and supporting the Provincial representative ie Munster, Leinster etc.

You talk about perks, but when the league started the Welsh teams were hugely dominant and the Irish sides were impoverished- playing in front of tiny crowds, run unprofessionally, no real sponsorship in place. They had no inherent advantage; in fact the odds you'd have got at that time would have been on Welsh dominance not Irish.

Intelligent people in the admin side of things have expanded Leinster, Munster and now Ulster into forces through good management, marketing and business sense. This is where the Welsh and Scottish teams have failed.

Notch

Theres a bit of a difference between hundreds of years of loyalism, a unification that comes from other sports, and a handfull of welsh businessmen squabbling over whos going to line their pockets best 10 years ago!!!

If the Dragons are suddenly made a feeder club where the other 3 regions send nothing players to play regularly and gain experience, all internationals were payed by the union, and suddenly every welsh player who earns in wales gets tax benefits I suspect the Welsh game would get a lot stronger at club level. You know what, the Blues will still struggle to get gates of over 4k!!!

Rugby is too popular in Wales, it's too personal, and important decisions aren't made with a sane and rational thought most of the time!

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Ulster had to invest heavily in foreign players to compete, and fair play to them. They signed world class in important positions.

The feeder club is the club lots of young players are sent to to gain experience and ply their trade in the Rabo and europe. When any of these players manage to excell they are sent back to the top 2! who do you think it is?

Ulster have signed 5 top class overseas players, the maximum allowed by the IRFU.

How many have the likes of Toulon, Clermont or any of the top French or English sides signed over the years?

Nobody is sent anywhere in Ireland, if a player decides to go to Connacht for gametime its traditionally because they aren't good enough for their home province.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rugby is too popular in Wales, it's too personal, and important decisions aren't made with a sane and rational thought most of the time!

Well there's the main reason why the Irish provinces have gained the advantage over the Welsh sides in a nutshell. To me, it looks like Wales had a lot of natural advantages over Ireland but squandered most of them.

Not good enough yet, Connacht is Leinster/Munster A.

Any other team would love to have an A side represent them in the Rabo and Europe!!!

This season alone Leinster has benfited by 3 starting players and Munster their highest scoring 10! Any other club like that kind of help next season?!

Notch

You are right, I don't think the clubs of old were much if anything behind Leinster, when they consolidated players they were better placed than the Irish teams. But this was a new concept and was always going to struggle, especially as the game moves forward and the Welsh public doesn't.

I would go as far to say that the regions were designed to aid the NT and not the club game, and this is how it has happened!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not good enough yet, Connacht is Leinster/Munster A.

Any other team would love to have an A side represent them in the Rabo and Europe!!!

This season alone Leinster has benfited by 3 starting players and Munster their highest scoring 10! Any other club like that kind of help next season?!

Those players left Connacht to play for the other provinces.

The same way some players will move from Dragons to the Ospreys or Scarelets to the Blues.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not good enough yet, Connacht is Leinster/Munster A.

Any other team would love to have an A side represent them in the Rabo and Europe!!!

This season alone Leinster has benfited by 3 starting players and Munster their highest scoring 10! Any other club like that kind of help next season?!

Who are the 3 starting players? Cronin is the only one I can think of and even he is second choice and was at Munster originally.

Which players have been sent to Connacht for gametime and returned to the "big two"?

Maybe the Welsh provinces are feeder clubs for the French teams too?

No it isn't the same at all!!

They served their time at Connacht, and decided they were good enough for the big 2, so they were given to, then nurtured by Connacht!!

Enough digs at Leinster. They're the best team. If you don't like, it's all right, they won't be forever.

What the English and French are saying is "We flog our players half to death and they don't. That's why we lost". So they come up with the bizarre plan of trying to invent new rules which might make the Irish teams flog their players half to death too. It won't work. The Irish won't overplay their players any more than they do. In fact the schedule the French subject their players do might be dangerous for their long term well being.

I'm sorry, but Leinster just have a great squad. The best in Europe. They're top of the league by 10 points and are unbeaten in the HC, becoming only the 2nd team to win a semi final away in France. They're the 1st Irish province to do a clean sweep of the inter pro's home and away in the league. They could be soon the 2nd team to win back to back HC's and the 1st to win 3 in 4. Crusaders won the Super Rugby comp 7 times in 10 years. No rule changes were proposed to try and stop their dominance. The idea would have been laughable. They were just a great team.

Under the new proposed rules I think Leinster would be in the same position. The new rules would essentially exclude the Italians from top level rugby in order to try and get at the Irish. But the Irish would still qualify and they'd still rest their stars regularly (they are forced to by the IRFU). Munster, Ulster and Leinster all fight strongly on both fronts. They're not languishing at the bottom of the league waiting for the HC. Although that's what some English and French seem to want to believe.

Leinster don't have any systemic advantage or magic formula that nobody else has access to. Their setup is exactly the same as it was when the English were dominating the HC. They've just improved out of sight on and off the field in the last 5 years. It's as simple as that.

Don't forget that the English and French signed up to the current setup for a very good reason. To raise the standard of European rugby. It's working. The English and French clubs now want to drag European rugby down to their level so they can win. It won't work, because Leinster will still be the same team next year and will still be very hard to beat. It's just a pity that the clubs are willing to do serious damage to the weaker nations in order to stop Irish dominance, and a pity that they don't care about that damage.

rodders

Look at Cronin, Carr and Hagan. OK Hagans not quite a starter yet, but he was needed for cover.

You mock because I'm right, the french didn't send young players for wales to develop and nurture then take them back when showing promise! It doesn't matter where they come from, it matters what the big 2 need, and Connacht and the IRFU provide!

Feckless Rogue wrote:
I'm sorry, but Leinster just have a great squad. The best in Europe. They're top of the league by 10 points and are unbeaten in the HC, becoming only the 2nd team to win a semi final away in France. They're the 1st Irish province to do a clean sweep of the inter pro's home and away in the league. They could be soon the 2nd team to win back to back HC's and the 1st to win 3 in 4.

Ah now lets not get carried away here Feckless.....

Do players not move between clubs in Wales too?

thebluesmancometh wrote:rodders

Look at Cronin, Carr and Hagan. OK Hagans not quite a starter yet, but he was needed for cover.

You mock because I'm right, the french didn't send young players for wales to develop and nurture then take them back when showing promise! It doesn't matter where they come from, it matters what the big 2 need, and Connacht and the IRFU provide!

Hagan and Carr are lucky to get a free Leinster tracksuit let alone be on the payroll.

None of those players were sent to Connacht. They went there out of their own free will because they weren't good enough to get contracts elsewhere and managed to earn contracts at the other provinces at a later stage.

I'm not knocking Leinster, just highlighting that they are not the poor celtic cousins who are just supermen that some are prtraying them.

I don't think this new system is set to catch the Irish teams specifically, it also helps stem the fortune of the likes of Edinburgh, who really did sacrifice the league by playing nothing teams at times. If the Italians and Glasgow do that next season we could very well see an all celtic semi / quarters.

mrsp, rodders.

I have personally seen conversations with younger players where a Leinster coach has 'guided' them toward approaching Connacht.

And players move evrywhere, but never to one club to gain experience then back to a club when finished, you know Connacht is Leinster/Munster A so why argue otherwise?!

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Nathan so how does relegation affect the english teams doing bad in the HC?

Have you not read what i put?

I'm saying that in the Aviva there's more things to fight for meaning we rarely (if ever) see a weakened team. In the Rabo you see weakened team's all the time.

I should also point out that i haven't given any excuses for the the English team's doing bad in the HC, i was replying to Mast regarding his post about the Welsh team's fielding academy players.

Does that explain what i was getting at?

If English clubs HAVE to fight for HC spots every year - and yes, they do - then perhaps instead of the boss of the English Premiership looking for changes in an outside League, maybe he and the organisation should just reward effort more? And that is in his hands. He and his executives can control that one. Honour the Fight more - do it justice and give rewards and honour to the sides that fight well for HC position (both for it AND in it).

So intead of all clubs having to fight every year for their HC spots, performance IN the HC should be rewarded. Reaching the QFs should perhaps justify having your HC place guaranteed for the following year.

Guaranteed HC placement would mean more relaxation, more time to try out the lesser players in certain games, the ability to develop a rotational policy and to give leeway to sides so that they can build trust in their lesser players.

The solutions to the APs problems are at the doorstep of the contollers of the AP Premiership itself - IF they actually got creative and really thought through their selection policies.

My solution, and it is the same as has often been mooted with regards to relegation is franchising/licencing. So rather than have Heineken Cup qualification based on league finish, the RFU hand out 6 Heineken Cup licences which allow the selected clubs to compete in the Heineken Cup for four years (it would be the same for relegation, with 12 four year Premiership licences handed out). The other 6 clubs in the Premiership would enter the Amlin, and they'd get the chance to compete in the Heineken Cup if they won that competition.

At the end of the four years Heineken Cup licences are reviewed based on both league finish and European performance over the four years (and other factors).

The theory being if we offer clubs more security with medium-term licences we won't have teams mortgaging their futures for short-term gain, nor will we have inefficiency or complacency which could be created if we offered long-term licences.

My other move would be to cut the number of Premiership games to 16. Two conferences of 6 teams (3 HC licencees in each), you play everyone in your conference home and away and everyone in the other conference home or away. Top two in each conference into the play-offs, then you probably wouldn't have to play on International weekends (you can fit all the games in allowing 4 weeks in the Autumn and 8 in the Spring for Internationals).

robbo

Who would enter which conference though, surely Sarries, Leiceste, northampton and Harlequins wouldn't all want to be in one, it means one of them not getting HC rugby.

What about north/south or London/rest of England?

thebluesmancometh wrote:mrsp, rodders.

I have personally seen conversations with younger players where a Leinster coach has 'guided' them toward approaching Connacht.

And players move evrywhere, but never to one club to gain experience then back to a club when finished, you know Connacht is Leinster/Munster A so why argue otherwise?!

Name one example where this has happened?

Ye thats right, I'll name the coach and player and put us all in the poopy!

Use your head, it doesn't happen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen!

I don't really accept that England holds the money audience because most European games are on the BBC, and the BBC is the British Broadcasting corporation. Granted there are more English license fee payers but the BBC is British not English.

6 Teams from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy would be plain silly, and personally I'd rather us pull out altogether than have to accept that. Lets be honest this would force the Celtic teams to put more emphasis on the Rabo direct and as a result it would probably be Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets in Europe each season with rarely a Scottish team and never for the foreseeable future an Italian team.

If anything the European Cup should be expanded, we could easily include a couple of Japanease, USA, and South African teams.

England and France are actually being very selfish and I hope the Rabo teams tell them where to stick it.

robbo, not a bad idea. And more constructive than trying to get 4 other unions to change their setup to suit you. And you're right about the number of games too. I think the number of games played in Europe by all teams needs to be looked at.

Ultimately the solution could be one all encompassing European competition that all the top flight European teams play in. Everyone plays the same number of games (before playoffs). No differing priorities for different teams. There's only one priority for everyone. Because there's only one competition.

You could probably draw it out of a hat. The trouble with doing it geographically is that you then put restrictions on who can be in the Heineken Cup (if you stick to 3 licencees in each pool).

If the HC teams were Leicester, Northampton, Saracens, Harlequins, Bath and Gloucester (basing it on the last 4 years, not just this season), then you would have something like:

Leicester, Northampton, Gloucester, Sale, Newcastle, Worcester
Saracens, Harlequins, Bath, London Irish, London Wasps, Exeter

done geographically, but you would have to pick your HC teams first and then decide on the two conferences. I think both conferences there are fairly even in terms of strength of team.

thebluesmancometh wrote:mrsp, rodders.

I have personally seen conversations with younger players where a Leinster coach has 'guided' them toward approaching Connacht.

And players move evrywhere, but never to one club to gain experience then back to a club when finished, you know Connacht is Leinster/Munster A so why argue otherwise?!

Does that mean that Tommy Bowe was sent to The Ospreys or that Wellies was sent to ASM?

Feckless Rogue wrote:
What the English and French are saying is "We flog our players half to death and they don't. That's why we lost". So they come up with the bizarre plan of trying to invent new rules which might make the Irish teams flog their players half to death too. It won't work. The Irish won't overplay their players any more than they do.

Under the new proposed rules I think Leinster would be in the same position. The new rules would essentially exclude the Italians from top level rugby in order to try and get at the Irish. But the Irish would still qualify and they'd still rest their stars regularly (they are forced to by the IRFU). Munster, Ulster and Leinster all fight strongly on both fronts. They're not languishing at the bottom of the league waiting for the HC. Although that's what some English and French seem to want to believe.

Don't forget that the English and French signed up to the current setup for a very good reason. To raise the standard of European rugby. It's working. The English and French clubs now want to drag European rugby down to their level so they can win. It won't work, because Leinster will still be the same team next year and will still be very hard to beat. It's just a pity that the clubs are willing to do serious damage to the weaker nations in order to stop Irish dominance, and a pity that they don't care about that damage.

I think what the English and French clubs want is a change in the dynamics. They want Leinster to have more games that matter in the Pro 12, to have the same injury and fatigue issues English and French sides have when picking HC sides. If Leinster suddenly find themselves struggling for HC qualification watch how the dynamics between them and the IRFU would change when it comes to Pro 12 selection. And the English and French sides feel able to ask for this because they bring most of the HC money to the table. Change is coming.

Quote Feckless: "Crusaders won the Super Rugby comp 7 times in 10 years. No rule changes were proposed to try and stop their dominance. The idea would have been laughable. They were just a great team. "

I guess no rule changes were proposed because all three participating countries are singing from the same hymn sheet right?......An unfair analogy.

Players move to other teams to get experience all the time.

English Premership teams, and Ulster, send players to English Div 1 teams on such a basis.

Notch wrote:Yes- less games, no games during international windows.

This has always been the plan but the clubs / regions / provinces etc have WANTED games during international windows because players are still being played and the clubs want the extra revenue.

Mrsp

Your on the verge of humiliating yourself now! Bowe moved to the Ospreys to win, he resisted the opportunities to move to munster on a big contract over and over, and finally moved home after the Ospreys basically told him they couldn't afford him! And Jones was a top class player moving for a big payday.

Neither were nurtured by a club then sent to the same 2 clubs that use the team as an A team.

Seriously if your going to keep repeating your one tired little glimpse of an argument at least slap some lippy on it to tart it up a bit!

AlynDavies wrote:

Notch wrote:Yes- less games, no games during international windows.

This has always been the plan but the clubs / regions / provinces etc have WANTED games during international windows because players are still being played and the clubs want the extra revenue.

Exactly. And we can't field full strength teams during those periods; so the results of the league are not reflective of how good a team actually is going to be in the Heineken Cup with all of their players available.

If anything, qualification should be based on Heineken Cup performance the previous season- not Pro12.

There is tremendous ignorance about the Irish provincial system here from non-Irish fans. What a shock. Here's the nub of the debate here, the Irish provinces have optimised their setup for the benefit of the national team. Key international players are rested to be in optimum form for the key fixtures in the season, i.e., the european cup and Six Nations. The fact that the Irish side has under performed is neither here nor there. Perhaps the RFU and WRU and their fans should look at the weaknesses in their own fiefdoms before casting stones at our maybe they might be in better shape. The begrudging comments of some towards Ulster has been astonishing, particularly in terms of NIQ recruits, when French, English and some Welsh sides, the Blues in particular, have more foreign players than us. We recruit quality, not quantity, and do so with a sustainable model so that we hopefully don't run into the mess that some sides are already in. Get your own house in order before attacking others.

Dave

The problem is a lot of Rabo teams have had a hugely injury struck season. The Blues have basically had a missing 15 throughout this season. The issue I think is more that Edinburgh made a semi with an average side because they were very clever in which games they bothered with, if every team just played a 2nd team in the rabo and full in th HC then there may be no Eng/fre semi finalists next season!

Hookisms

I think youve misread just about everything said here, go back and start again paying more attention mate!

Oh and regarding the Blues, how many NWQ starters do they have? enlighten me.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Hookisms

I think youve misread just about everything said here, go back and start again paying more attention mate!

No, I've noted your snide little digs at Irish rugby and the provinces over the past two or three weeks. Again, get your house in order before throwing rocks at others 'mate'.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There is tremendous ignorance about the Irish provincial system here from non-Irish fans BluesmanCometh.

Fixed it for you Hookie! ....

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mrsp

Your on the verge of humiliating yourself now! Bowe moved to the Ospreys to win, he resisted the opportunities to move to munster on a big contract over and over, and finally moved home after the Ospreys basically told him they couldn't afford him! And Jones was a top class player moving for a big payday.

Neither were nurtured by a club then sent to the same 2 clubs that use the team as an A team.

Seriously if your going to keep repeating your one tired little glimpse of an argument at least slap some lippy on it to tart it up a bit!

Blues,

You keep insisting that Leinster and Munster use Connacht as an "A" team becaise there is movement between the provinces but yet movement between Welsh sides can not possibly be the same. Then you claim to have some sort of personal knowledge of players who have been used in this way but you refuse to back that up with any evidence at all.

Then you resort to condescension!

Nice!

snide? digs?

I work with them, I used to live there, my family is from there as is the missus. I spend half my life in Dublin, and Clare... god how I hate you guys!!!

I merely point out facts you don't like to admit, as I do about the welsh set up, but god forbid don't let the facts get in your way of a chance of an insult!

I didn't breathe on any window what are you talking about!!!

rodders wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There is tremendous ignorance about the Irish provincial system here from non-Irish fans BluesmanCometh.

Fixed it for you Hookie! ....

Good man Rodders!

I fail to understand why BluesmanCometh and his begrudging ilk don't look at what the Irish provinces do successfully and leaner from it and try to make it work for their sides. Let's put ourselves in his way of thinking.....ok..... Cuthbert and North ran over our players in the Six Nations. Rodders, going forward, the best thing for Irish rugby would be to send an edict out to Welsh mothers that stopped them overfeeding their young because they are growing up to be too big. That ought to level the playing field. Or, alternatively, we could organise ourselves first by having a decent defensive pattern and learning how to tackle effectively.

DaveM wrote:
I think what the English and French clubs want is a change in the dynamics. They want Leinster to have more games that matter in the Pro 12, to have the same injury and fatigue issues English and French sides have when picking HC sides. If Leinster suddenly find themselves struggling for HC qualification watch how the dynamics between them and the IRFU would change when it comes to Pro 12 selection.

I think considering the fact that Leinster have topped the table in 3 out of the last 4 seasons thats not really likely is it?

Its funny how English sides only seem to suffer "fatigue issues" when playing Irish teams, or more specifically when they lose to Irish teams?

Did the Leicester Tigers not get tired when they won back to back titles?

Mate there is so much ignorance in this comment it's unreal!!

Food = Height??? Cuthbert and North have welsh mothers???

Welsh mothers can cook???

You can have the best defencive pattern in the world, if your players tackle too high they'll be walked through, especially your midfield!

I'm not sure why your using the NT as an example when your structure clearly has your clubs beating ours over and over while our NT is beating yours over and over.

The other thing is as well Rodders that the French, particularly under the generalship of Serge Blanco, and some of the English clubs, have been looking for these sorts of changes for the better part of a decade and precisely nothing has happened.

This wouldn't have even been an issue had Edinburgh not got through to a semi-final by, and I hope I don't offend any Edinburgh fans by saying this, massively over performing in their quarter final. Others may beg to differ, but was their victory against Toulouse not the biggest shock in the competitions history? This after coming through the weakest group of Cardiff, London Irish, a very average English side, and Racing, a very average French side. The stars were aligned in many respects for Edinburgh this season.

I think the only way the English and French can force change is through threatening to quit.

The Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English and French Unions each own 19% of European rugby Cup Limited with the Italians the last 5%.

I guess if the French and English did quit it wouldn't matter because they couldn't have a European Cup on their own, merely an Anglo / French one. I'm also not sure how interesting that would be because the French always focus on their own league before everything else.

If we can get off the parochial digs and get back to the topic at hand, s'il vous plait?

If this is a real proposal, and I think that is still an 'IF", then this is merely the a going-in negotiating position and not a concrete line in the sand. In fact, it might have been leaked to gauge inital reaction before any meaningful negotiation or discussion begins.

Frankly, I don't believe the success of the Irish teams would remotely be the primary point of this. It seems more about money, pure and simple: Consolidating the TV, sponsorship, merchandise, and other monies amongst fewer teams. Whomever is behind the proposal must have performed an analysis with sufficient rigour to believe the loss of 4 teams will not impact the gross to a significant degree. And let's not forget, this kind of proposal could not be considered without the involvement of TV networks up-front.

In other words, there is a lot more to this than it appears, but in many ways less than it appears as well. No one involved with Rugby is unaware the Heineken Cup is the big money spinner for the teams. No one is going to kill the golden goose. But how she is cut up might change. And we can be confident that how it comes out the other end of the negotiations will be different than the going-in positions - assuming there is more to this than smoke.

Nice try Hook.. But Cardiff aren't in the HC!

I think you'll find that before the groups were finished the Blues and Metro were huge favourites, it was Metro's lack of any sort of performance that through the group into chaos, and Edinburgh thouroughly deserved their win over Tolouse, and no it wasn't the biggest shock in HC history you arrogant so and so!!

Perpignan lost to Treviso and Connacht have picked up huge wins too, not to mention Montpelliers draw with Leinster! I'd actually say Edinburgh under performed V Ulster.

Quote Rodders: "Did the Leicester Tigers not get tired when they won back to back titles?"

I'm almost certain they were tired. I'm not so sure that they wage cap and various League differences and demands were as inequitable as they are now though.