French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

tiger

I wouldn't worry too much, remember it's all about Ireland!

Can you even draw a concrete line in sand?



Hi Grey!

Bye Grey!

too funny. yes, we can. we have techology. can do anything. even write things which make me look like an idiot when trying to make a point.

welcome to the pit grey, now you know how I felt for the last 30 mins!

Wouldn't it just be better to totally change the European system?

Merge the European Cup and the Amlin Cup and have 8 pools of 4 teams so you have 32 teams altogether. 12 Rabo teams, 10 French and 10 English teams.

The top placed team in each of the 8 pool would go into a European Cup,

the second placed team in each pool would go into the European Shield,

the Third placed team in each pool into a Plate competition,

and the last placed team in each pool could go into a Bowl competition.

Well, you said it. And I thought things could do with a bit of lightening up, no?

You do make a valid point though. This is a preliminary stance from which to begin bargaining.

Nothing set in stone...or concrete!

AlynDavies wrote:Wouldn't it just be better to totally change the European system?

Merge the European Cup and the Amlin Cup and have 8 pools of 4 teams so you have 32 teams altogether. 12 Rabo teams, 10 French and 10 English teams.

The top placed team in each of the 8 pool would go into a European Cup,

the second placed team in each pool would go into the European Shield,

the Third placed team in each pool into a Plate competition,

and the last placed team in each pool could go into a Bowl competition.

I like it. But I don't see the point in these competitions. The first two make sense however.

Many apologies for not using the full title of Cardiff Blues in my post, and many thanks for once again showing the parochial attitudes of a large section of Welsh fans that continues to hold your club game back.

Yep, those are all good examples of upsets. None of them in the knockout phases of a competition against the most successful side in its history, but whatever floats your boat. Considering we beat Edinburgh away 40-12, and 18-16 at home I'd be pretty sure that we did not play to our best against Edinburgh and had they taken their chances I would be bemoaning us having lost. I'm not sure how you think that means they under performed when they were probably the better side against us.

Notch wrote:I like it. But I don't see the point in these competitions. The first two make sense however.

Sorry Notch, clearly I forgot about the Irish blind spot, clearly the Bowl and Plate are there so Welsh and English teams have a chance of winning something.

38 -16 at Ravenhill!

They under performed because when they played you in the rabo they fielded poor sides, then they beat Tolouse with a very good performance, and with numerous mistakes should've beaten Ulster.

As Wales underperformed in the first game in the 6N!

Games in knockout phases of comps are generally tighter and more nervy than group games, so beating opposition in the group is far more impressive than in the knockout. Ireland beating Australia shocked the World cup, Wales beating Ireland didn't!

I merely respond to every point you make/mistake you make, unlike you who picks and chooses what I say to respond to, you tend to ignore my points that make your argument defunct!

So, still back to the point..............

Besides money, where do we think this could be going? Why float this trial balloon now?

Possibly about the English clubs wanting to help fund an increase in their Salary Cap?
Or an openning salvo at the TV networks indicating everything is open to discussion and change, including other networks besides Sky (in England) being involved to bring in more cash? Who televises in France? Only one network or two?

Notch wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:Wouldn't it just be better to totally change the European system?

Merge the European Cup and the Amlin Cup and have 8 pools of 4 teams so you have 32 teams altogether. 12 Rabo teams, 10 French and 10 English teams.

The top placed team in each of the 8 pool would go into a European Cup,

the second placed team in each pool would go into the European Shield,

the Third placed team in each pool into a Plate competition,

and the last placed team in each pool could go into a Bowl competition.

I like it. But I don't see the point in these competitions. The first two make sense however.

This coincides with my thoughts as well. I agree with Notch forget the 3rd and 4th level games though.
Has the added advantage of not involving any team in more games than currently

AlynDavies wrote:Wouldn't it just be better to totally change the European system?

Merge the European Cup and the Amlin Cup and have 8 pools of 4 teams so you have 32 teams altogether. 12 Rabo teams, 10 French and 10 English teams.

The top placed team in each of the 8 pool would go into a European Cup,

the second placed team in each pool would go into the European Shield,

the Third placed team in each pool into a Plate competition,

and the last placed team in each pool could go into a Bowl competition.

One problem is you have 2 top level clubs in England and 4 top level clubs in France that miss out altogether, a situation I can't see the PRL or the French equivalent allowing. It also completely cuts out minor European leagues (in this year's Amlin Cup 4 teams from the Super 10 as well as sides from Romania and Spain competed).

tigerleghorn wrote:Quote Rodders: "Did the Leicester Tigers not get tired when they won back to back titles?"

I'm almost certain they were tired. I'm not so sure that they wage cap and various League differences and demands were as inequitable as they are now though.

The league demands were even more inequitable as the Celtic league was in its infancy and much weaker than today.

What was even more iinequitable was that the English teams had far superior resources to the likes of Munster and Leinster.

What has since changed is that the wage cap has weakened the English teams and the Irish provinces have grown into global brands, with huge followings, top facilities and coaches and the status and finanaces to attract and retain top players and the English and now French sides are struggling to compete with them.

Wouldn't it just be better if they English sides sorted their own league out first? I don't remember too much criticism when they won the competition in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2004 due to the competitiveness of the English Premiership week in, week out. Now the same conditions are a detriment to success. How about lifting their salary cap before telling other leagues what they should do? How about the French league stopping calling international starters to club games in rest weeks in the Six Nations? Despite talk of how Irish sides don't take the Rabo seriously, either Ulster, Munster or Leinster have won it 6 out of 10 years so far.

Whoever it was mentioned the Crusaders before is right. Irish sides are doing well now, but it wouldn't take much for the WRU to get their act together and find a model that gets fans behind it. We could be sitting here in a few years saying that the Welsh sides are dominant, what are we to do. It happens in every sport, its cyclical, but unions and club bodies would be better investing time in sorting themselves out rather than dictating to others.

The minor country teams should play the Welsh Club teams and the 2nd level of English and French rugby. The games between them and the French, English and 4th Welsh and/or Irish sides are nearly always very one sided.

I'm pretty sure that English clubs lack of success in the Heineken is purely down to the demands of the season. If Tigers and saints were to play the Heineken Cup semi-finalists next week they wouldn't be rolling over to have their tummy's tickled like earlier in the season. A "softer" domestic league would have been very helpful!

MrsP wrote:38 -16 at Ravenhill!

Sorry MrsP, of course you are right. Slip of the finger there!

tigerleghorn wrote:I'm pretty sure that English clubs lack of success in the Heineken is purely down to the demands of the season. If Tigers and saints were to play the Heineken Cup semi-finalists next week they wouldn't be rolling over to have their tummy's tickled like earlier in the season. A "softer" domestic league would have been very helpful!

Here's the problem, you see what you want in that argument. The hard season was supposedly a bonus as it battle hardened the English teams for the EC when they were winning. Now they are too tired, too sore, too injured. If Leinster and Ulster had have lost their semi finals then some would change their tune and say the big players were simply not match fit having not played enough rugby. This issue is a total red herring.

I know this is obvious, but as the English are too constrained and tired to compete in the HC, the French don't care, the Welsh are without real teams (regions be damned), the Scots too football orientated and the Italians too few in number, perhaps it is time for a radical solution. I suggest the Irish provinces leave the old stale heiny cup and ask our Southern buddies for a seat at the super 15. At least then the rest of the Europeans can share the cups out equally between 'real clubs'.
If the Irish play down South then at least the odd time they do get a rub of the green the winning or losing will be down to the rugby. What I'm saying is, perhaps the Irish need some real competition, the rest of the Europeans are just too weak
ahem ahem......

Theres a lot of tripe coming from all sides now!!

The tigers and Northampton just havn't been good enough, that is their only excuse!

The Irish model is not gonna be able to be copied by anyone in britain due to their european status (tax) and the use of a feeder club.

The WRU has got it's act together, recently highlighted by the GS, it's the individual clubs that are in trouble!

The WRU has no problem putting bums on seats!

Oh and Hook dodges another comment proving him wrong, what a surprise!

Oh look, another logical thoughtfull irish poster has joined...

Ulster dont benefit from the Irish tax model but they have made the final.

You need to calm down or go to anger managment classes.

Mind you thanks for the entertainment

thebluesmancometh wrote:Theres a lot of tripe coming from all sides now!!

The tigers and Northampton just havn't been good enough, that is their only excuse!

The Irish model is not gonna be able to be copied by anyone in britain due to their european status (tax) and the use of a feeder club.

The WRU has got it's act together, recently highlighted by the GS, it's the individual clubs that are in trouble!

The WRU has no problem putting bums on seats!

Oh and Hook dodges another comment proving him wrong, what a surprise!

When you say something of merit to respond to I will. When you learn about the Irish tax system and what a 'feeder club' actually is then I can respond. Until then your lack of knowledge just continually gets shown up by several posters for what it is, anti-Irish bile.

Hang on Langer!....We English will do the "Arrogance" if you don't mind

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster dont benefit from the Irish tax model but they have made the final.

You need to calm down or go to anger managment classes.

Mind you thanks for the entertainment

Trust me Geoff its only entertaining 1st time round......

I'm glad thebluesman isn't my accountant anyways......

I'll keep my anti Irish stuff for the boys at Leinster and Old belvedere! I work with a number of coaches within the set up and trust me, they embrace the advantages Leinster and Munster receive!!!

Geoff re read back mate, when did I accuse Ulster of tax breaks? Cmon mate, either engage fully or go home!

I am not writing anything anti Irish, I am stating facts! facts you may not like but none the less facts!

Most posters seem to have focused on the 20 team qualification - the irish in particular, who probably currently have least to fear.

Does anyone not think the two three week blocks and the simpler seeding system, plus a third tier competition are a step forward?

The overall french approach with english support is undoubtedly about share of funds and the structural proposals are but one facet of the upcoming ERC negotiations. Strategically the R12 have blundered by making no suggestions to pre-empt this proposal - perhaps they think all is perfect??

The best post, in amongst the arguing about current irish success, has been from Doctor Grey and the ultimate division of proceeds. I suspect when the pressure comes on, the option for the R12 will be to take a (perhaps disproportionate) share of the cash and concede some of the structural debate.

If I wanted to debate the merits behind current irish success my OP would have been different but perhaps this thread has run its course, although the topic clearly hasnt....

Recwatcher wrote:Strategically the R12 have blundered by making no suggestions to pre-empt this proposal - perhaps they think all is perfect??

Well apart from scrapping the 6N I'm happy enough with the seasons structure..... ....

I'm not sure if two blocks of three makes any tangible difference, but when are they going to be played? The original article says October and November, but what about the Autumn Internationals?

A simpler seeding system could work out well, but I don't see why we don't do away with seeding altogether.

Who would compete in the third-tier competition?

Fair enough Rodders - can you imagine the debate that would cause ! Good job it is just a game....

You know those 7th spots the English and French can get ? well they are actually Welsh places.

Wales is entitled within the original set up to 5 places within the HC as long as they have at least 1 team in the Amlin. Originally with a 9 team league therefore we had 5 in the HC and 4 in the Amlin.

Then we went down to 5 sides and so only had 4 and 1. Then we went to 4 sides so now we have 3 and 1.

So in theory Wales is entitled to go back to say its own 6 team league and get 5 teams in the HC.

Now, what would the French and English say about that?

What they seem to be missing the point of is that the Rabo12 is just a way of getting game time for the sides involved. It is effectively 4 leagues in 1 so that the top Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians are still qualifying just as they would if they had separate leagues.

I don't see this as anything other than money grabbing which we usually see from them every time contracts are close to being up.

We have seen it from the English before with the 6 nations and it always rears its ugly head when European contracts are due.

That was a joke of course.....

Recwatcher,

The seeding system should definitely change. The current one is so rigid and clumsy, it's hard to understand why they adopted it in the first place.

They could use this
Or have a point exchange system like in internationals
Or they could base seedings on league position

Anything that will make the seedings a bit more fluid than they are now and doesn't give equal weight to something that happend 4 years ago.

A third tier tournament is a step forward.

But relegating the Italians down to the lower tiers just to line the pockets of the weaker English and French clubs is not a step forward. It's a leap back. And the Scottish clubs could also find themselves in trouble. The demise of one of rugby traditional top tier nations is not a step forward either.

Feckless, that is certainly one valid way of looking at things - the other is to consider an Italian team in your HC pool as an advantage - look at Ulster. They have not earnt League success yet are still given a premature leg-up.

I repeat my earlier comment about the dismissal of the Amblin as an irrelevance by R12 fans, which is a great shame. This competition is just as hard to win providing the teams dont have a concentration of current Test players in their lineup. That was the route that took Wasps to the top of the tree not that long ago.

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
France and England's top clubs want to turn club rugby into an arms race, one could say that this is unfair on the rest of Europe, apart from the fact that it is not making any better product than the celtic league that differs in principle by choosing to invest in the cheaper model of utilising strong academies.

Englands top clubs want to be allowed to raise their budget to something more comparable to the French Clubs, more money won't make the English, French or any of the rest of us catch up with the Irish. Reinvention and encouragement of academies to develop talent.

But the only reason for them doing that is because all team's do it. If the opposition is weaker you can safely field a weaker team. That attitude has been born out of a lack of relegation. The Aviva does have relegation so the team's have to fight for win's so each team will try and put there best out.

Academy players don't weaken a side if the academies are funded well enough to do their job and prepare youngsters for senior rugby.

These academy players have not let teams down, think George North, Keith Earls, Toby Faletau, Stuart Hogg, Richie Gray are now recognised as top senior players all picked by their teams whileIn their very early twenties or even as teenagers, all played HEC rugby and proved their worth.

In England there are great academy players like Ben Spencer at Saries who when they had a chance and were taking it and proving themselves a great success their clubs managers buy in a guy like Peter Stringer to replace him. That would not happen outside of England and France, that is why your rugby is so expensive.

There is no relegation in Premiership rugby. Only members of the PRL can be promoted. Leeds and Bristol are the only Championship teams that are members and unless one of them win the Championship, no one will be relegated.

English and French club rugby is run by the "have's" and not the "have not's". They want expensive foreign stars rather than local home grown talent.

Luckily for English club rugby teams like Exeter Cheifs are starting to show the top "Have's" teams that big budget expensive rugby does not guaranty success.

Maesteg, all good examples but the AP is bringing on loads of Academy players and they are coming through. My own club Bath has Catt, Ovens, Mercer, Cook, Heathcote, Williams and Woodburn who have all come through in the last 12-18 months. The point is they will not match seasoned internationals lined up in R12 sides.

Just for the record I could probably name ex - Bath Academy players in most AP sides too, including Skaysbrook at Exeter Chiefs !

Recwatcher wrote:Maesteg, all good examples but the AP is bringing on loads of Academy players and they are coming through. My own club Bath has Catt, Ovens, Mercer, Cook, Heathcote, Williams and Woodburn who have all come through in the last 12-18 months. The point is they will not match seasoned internationals lined up in R12 sides.

Just for the record I could probably name ex - Bath Academy players in most AP sides too, including Skaysbrook at Exeter Chiefs !

Good on the lads at the Rec.

But those lads won't be starting first choice players will they...! Even though after a couple of games they would likely be good enough.

The AP and Championship prefer buying in rather than home growing.

One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Portnoy wrote:One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Or like the Scarlets and Ospreys have done cull the expensive wage bill and allow the understudy academy lads their feet.

You sacrifice a season or two of results but eventually you would reap the rewards.

A team like Tigers could save a few million discarding Castrogiovanni, Ayzera, Tuilagi senior etc etc etc

If the French and English clubs want to have their own competition there's nothing that will stop them.

If they want to change the way the H cup is so they have more money/ better chance of winning and they get their way then what will happen next? Well they'll probably think "that was great now we've more money and success let's do this again" etc. Sorry but that's what I think will happen. These clubs don't give a toss about what's best for rugby in Europe, and would be glad if other sides were weaker as they'd win more trophys.

Maybe the rabo sides should approach South Africa about setting up an alternative competition.

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Or like the Scarlets and Ospreys have done cull the expensive wage bill and allow the understudy academy lads their feet.

You sacrifice a season or two of results but eventually you would reap the rewards.

A team like Tigers could save a few million discarding Castrogiovanni, Ayzera, Tuilagi senior etc etc etc

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_academy_squad.php

A split in European rugby would be the worst thing for all concerned. The threats to do so are just that. Threats. To improve their negotiating position.

South Africa have made similar threats in SANZAR. They've hinted at the idea of joining various combinations of European nations. But they never amount to anything. They just use it as leverage in SANZAR negotiations.

I don't think the English and French threats will become reality either. But England have pulled out of the HC before. So it's not completely out of the question.

Portnoy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Or like the Scarlets and Ospreys have done cull the expensive wage bill and allow the understudy academy lads their feet.

You sacrifice a season or two of results but eventually you would reap the rewards.

A team like Tigers could save a few million discarding Castrogiovanni, Ayzera, Tuilagi senior etc etc etc

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_academy_squad.php

Good bunch of lads there mate. But unless a tragic accident happens to the tigers first team these guys wont get a look in.

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Or like the Scarlets and Ospreys have done cull the expensive wage bill and allow the understudy academy lads their feet.

You sacrifice a season or two of results but eventually you would reap the rewards.

A team like Tigers could save a few million discarding Castrogiovanni, Ayzera, Tuilagi senior etc etc etc

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_academy_squad.php

Good bunch of lads there mate. But unless a tragic accident happens to the tigers first team these guys wont get a look in.

It's true that Maesteg. The Tigers academy has never produced a half-decent player.

Thebluesman just out of interest who do you support?

Portnoy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Portnoy wrote:One of these days the Tigers are going to save up their pennies and open one of them new-fangled academy thingies.

Or like the Scarlets and Ospreys have done cull the expensive wage bill and allow the understudy academy lads their feet.

You sacrifice a season or two of results but eventually you would reap the rewards.

A team like Tigers could save a few million discarding Castrogiovanni, Ayzera, Tuilagi senior etc etc etc

http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/leicester_tigers_academy_squad.php

Good bunch of lads there mate. But unless a tragic accident happens to the tigers first team these guys wont get a look in.

It's true that Maesteg. The Tigers academy has never produced a half-decent player.

That's not what I said at all...??? Im not sure how you made that conclusion.

The tigers have a great academy but those academy players rarely get a look in because tigers buy in so much talent. My point was that the English clubs could be much more profitable if they used more home grown players rather than buying in foreigners.

Quote Doctornickolas: "I don't see this as anything other than money grabbing which we usually see from them every time contracts are close to being up.

We have seen it from the English before with the 6 nations and it always rears its ugly head when European contracts are due"

Except if you'd have bothered to read the thread through you would have seen that it's the FRENCH who are proposing changes. Still, let's blame the arrogant English anyway hey?

Decent props grow on trees the world around Maesteg.