French and English threat to the HC

by Guest Sun May 06, 2012 8:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

by maestegmafia Mon May 07, 2012 7:46 pm

tigerleghorn wrote:

Except if you'd have bothered to read the thread through you would have seen that it's the FRENCH who are proposing changes. Still, let's blame the arrogant English anyway hey?

The PRL have said the same as the French.

by maestegmafia Mon May 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Portnoy wrote:Decent props grow on trees the world around Maesteg.

What????

Are you really missing the point so badly?

How are your young props in the big AP clubs academies going to he a chance. You wouldnt have discovered Dan Cole if it wasn't for a run of injuries to foreigners.

Anyhow I'm not here to argue Holly Wilaboobie for tat.

My point stands, the top AP clubs have academies, they chose to spend more money buying in players than their non Gallic rivals in the Rabbo 12.

They could run on less budget and still be highly competitive but chose not to.

by Portnoy Mon May 07, 2012 7:57 pm

If you say so Maesteg. If you say so.

by maestegmafia Mon May 07, 2012 7:59 pm

Portnoy wrote:If you say so Maesteg. If you say so.

Do you say differently?

by wayne Mon May 07, 2012 8:07 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Portnoy wrote:If you say so Maesteg. If you say so.

Do you say differently?

Maesteg the Leicester Academy is the BEST in these Islands they beat everyone, I believe they beat the Welsh team who were a year older earlier this year, they are like the Manchester United youth team in Football, I'm an Ospreylian and a Welshman they give many opportunities to their Academy products and have done so for many years.

by Portnoy Mon May 07, 2012 8:08 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Portnoy wrote:If you say so Maesteg. If you say so.

Do you say differently?

https://www.606v2.com/t28629-jeff-neq-player-caps

by tigerleghorn Mon May 07, 2012 8:18 pm

Quote Maesteg: "How are your young props in the big AP clubs academies going to he a chance. You wouldnt have discovered Dan Cole if it wasn't for a run of injuries to foreigners.

Do you really think Cole was a serendipitous discovery? He was playing for Tigers well before his league breakthrough.

From Wiki: Cole's first team début came in the October 2007 EDF Energy Cup pool match against Bath. Most of the 2007–08 season was spent on loan to Bedford Blues and it was the beginning of the 2008–09 season before Cole played for the first team again. Cole was involved in most of the games in the first half of the season.[2] In January 2009, Cole was loaned to Nottingham R.F.C.[3] Cole played in the final of the 2008–09 Guinness Premiership.[4]
Through injury to Leicester tight-heads Julian White and Martin Castrogiovanni, Cole achieved a run of games during the 2009–10 season which saw him gain notoriety as man-of-the-match against London Wasps.[5]

But as Portnoy wrote, whatever you say.

by maestegmafia Mon May 07, 2012 8:26 pm

tigerleghorn wrote:Quote Maesteg: "How are your young props in the big AP clubs academies going to he a chance. You wouldnt have discovered Dan Cole if it wasn't for a run of injuries to foreigners.

Do you really think Cole was a serendipitous discovery? He was playing for Tigers well before his league breakthrough.

From Wiki: Cole's first team début came in the October 2007 EDF Energy Cup pool match against Bath. Most of the 2007–08 season was spent on loan to Bedford Blues and it was the beginning of the 2008–09 season before Cole played for the first team again. Cole was involved in most of the games in the first half of the season.[2] In January 2009, Cole was loaned to Nottingham R.F.C.[3] Cole played in the final of the 2008–09 Guinness Premiership.[4]
Through injury to Leicester tight-heads Julian White and Martin Castrogiovanni, Cole achieved a run of games during the 2009–10 season which saw him gain notoriety as man-of-the-match against London Wasps.[5]

But as Portnoy wrote, whatever you say.

That mirrors exactly what you quoted me saying.

by tigerleghorn Mon May 07, 2012 8:34 pm

Except you've totally disregarded his playing history with Tigers prior to this.

Let me explain. COLES FIRST TEAM DEBUT CAME IN OCTOBER 2007, a fully two years before this. steam

by doctornickolas Mon May 07, 2012 8:57 pm

tigerleghorn wrote:Quote Doctornickolas: "I don't see this as anything other than money grabbing which we usually see from them every time contracts are close to being up.

We have seen it from the English before with the 6 nations and it always rears its ugly head when European contracts are due"

Except if you'd have bothered to read the thread through you would have seen that it's the FRENCH who are proposing changes. Still, let's blame the arrogant English anyway hey?

To answer your point. It is something we have seen from the English before with regard to the 6 nations when they were temporarily expelled until they backed down.

Much has been written about it in the English press by English journalists and the discussion has been brought up by AP club owners.

Even if they not the instigators they are obviously very much part of this movement and fully behind it. Still, let's blame the arrogant French anyway hey?

Both countries are clearly discussing this and are both after the same thing.

by **profitius** Mon May 07, 2012 9:43 pm

DaveM wrote:At the end of the day the English and French clubs bring most of the money to the table, and then feel they aren't competing on a level playing field. Change was always going to come.

If the English and French sides leave then it will range from financially harmful to financially devastating for the Pro 12 sides. An exodus of players towards the AP and Top 14 would follow. Hopefully common sense will prevail before this happens, but change is inevitable, and this change will result in a more competitive Pro 12 (which may actually help some Pro 12 sides attract more paying customers) that will tilt the playing field somewhat away from the Irish provinces and towards the French and English clubs.

The English and French clubs don't bring most to the table. If you're talking about money its Sky and the big French company who put up most money. Sky is paid for by British and Irish people. The HEC is vital for sky in the Irish market. A large percentage of Irish people pay for sky sports just to watch HEC rugby and sky know this and that increases the value of the Irish market. Basically what I'm trying to say is the money from each country is more complicated than the number of people in each country. English people buy sky to watch soccer mostly.

Another point is that even English people would prefer to watch Toulouse against Leinster than Bath vs Glasgow for example.

Also, you have the expats and those of Irish, Scottish and Welsh ancestry in England who support the Celtic teams so its inaccurate to claim its English clubs money.

by tigerleghorn Mon May 07, 2012 9:45 pm

Quote:Still, let's blame the arrogant French anyway hey?

Nah, I'm sure it all comes down to the English. The very best panto villains right?

by nathan Mon May 07, 2012 9:48 pm

profitius wrote:
DaveM wrote:At the end of the day the English and French clubs bring most of the money to the table, and then feel they aren't competing on a level playing field. Change was always going to come.

If the English and French sides leave then it will range from financially harmful to financially devastating for the Pro 12 sides. An exodus of players towards the AP and Top 14 would follow. Hopefully common sense will prevail before this happens, but change is inevitable, and this change will result in a more competitive Pro 12 (which may actually help some Pro 12 sides attract more paying customers) that will tilt the playing field somewhat away from the Irish provinces and towards the French and English clubs.

The English and French clubs don't bring most to the table. If you're talking about money its Sky and the big French company who put up most money. Sky is paid for by British and Irish people. The HEC is vital for sky in the Irish market. A large percentage of Irish people pay for sky sports just to watch HEC rugby and sky know this and that increases the value of the Irish market. Basically what I'm trying to say is the money from each country is more complicated than the number of people in each country. English people buy sky to watch soccer mostly.

Another point is that even English people would prefer to watch Toulouse against Leinster than Bath vs Glasgow for example.

Also, you have the expats and those of Irish, Scottish and Welsh ancestry in England who support the Celtic teams so its inaccurate to claim its English clubs money.

Could you provide some evidence that the HC brings in more money than the Aviva does?

by The Great Aukster Mon May 07, 2012 11:39 pm

The AP and the T14 are only interested in selling their product. They rely on sponsors believing they have the best teams competing in the best leagues. To command a 'premium' price they have to sell a premier product.
When those teams get consistently beaten that marketing strength is undermined. So their strategy is to undermine the European competition and improve the odds in their favour. None of the proposals will do anything to increase competitiveness/ fairness/ sporting spectacle - quite the reverse.

by DaveM Tue May 08, 2012 12:10 am

maestegmafia wrote:
In England there are great academy players like Ben Spencer at Saries who when they had a chance and were taking it and proving themselves a great success their clubs managers buy in a guy like Peter Stringer to replace him. That would not happen outside of England and France, that is why your rugby is so expensive.

There is no relegation in Premiership rugby. Only members of the PRL can be promoted. Leeds and Bristol are the only Championship teams that are members and unless one of them win the Championship, no one will be relegated.

English and French club rugby is run by the "have's" and not the "have not's". They want expensive foreign stars rather than local home grown talent.

Stringer was injury cover with De Kock and Wigglesworth were both out injured and Spencer, who is still 19, was the only senior SH available. He was released to Newcastle as the other SHs returned to fitness.

You don't have to be a member of PRL to get promoted, you just need to meet certain requirements.

And English clubs have never been keener to play home grown players. A combination of the French hoarding talent and a failure to develop enough players between 2000 and 2005 is causing some difficulties. To a certain extent this will pass, but the HC will still change.

by beshocked Tue May 08, 2012 12:10 am

I think let's just leave things as they are.

I am annoyed by the seeding because I know my side are stronger than many teams above them but that's the way things will stay.That's fine by me. I want us to be a team you want to avoid.I think we are.

Let's not moan. Let's just win.

To get stronger we need to look at our weaknesses and how we can personally improve. Let's not change the rules. I don't think we need to.

I am looking forward to the next Heineken Cup - want to see my side getting stuck into more Pro12 sides like this season. Bring it on!

by **profitius** Tue May 08, 2012 12:16 am

nathan wrote:
profitius wrote:
DaveM wrote:At the end of the day the English and French clubs bring most of the money to the table, and then feel they aren't competing on a level playing field. Change was always going to come.

If the English and French sides leave then it will range from financially harmful to financially devastating for the Pro 12 sides. An exodus of players towards the AP and Top 14 would follow. Hopefully common sense will prevail before this happens, but change is inevitable, and this change will result in a more competitive Pro 12 (which may actually help some Pro 12 sides attract more paying customers) that will tilt the playing field somewhat away from the Irish provinces and towards the French and English clubs.

The English and French clubs don't bring most to the table. If you're talking about money its Sky and the big French company who put up most money. Sky is paid for by British and Irish people. The HEC is vital for sky in the Irish market. A large percentage of Irish people pay for sky sports just to watch HEC rugby and sky know this and that increases the value of the Irish market. Basically what I'm trying to say is the money from each country is more complicated than the number of people in each country. English people buy sky to watch soccer mostly.

Another point is that even English people would prefer to watch Toulouse against Leinster than Bath vs Glasgow for example.

Also, you have the expats and those of Irish, Scottish and Welsh ancestry in England who support the Celtic teams so its inaccurate to claim its English clubs money.

Could you provide some evidence that the HC brings in more money than the Aviva does?

I didn't mention the Aviva.

by **profitius** Tue May 08, 2012 12:20 am

I think everything is exaggerated as usual. I don't think the R12 teams are that dominant. Its only Leinster who are up there all the time. Munster were there before that flying the flag for the R12.Ulster had a good run this season but even their fans were not expecting such a good run this season.

by DaveM Tue May 08, 2012 12:26 am

profitius wrote:
The English and French clubs don't bring most to the table. If you're talking about money its Sky and the big French company who put up most money. Sky is paid for by British and Irish people. The HEC is vital for sky in the Irish market. A large percentage of Irish people pay for sky sports just to watch HEC rugby and sky know this and that increases the value of the Irish market. Basically what I'm trying to say is the money from each country is more complicated than the number of people in each country. English people buy sky to watch soccer mostly.

How important do you think the Irish market is to Sky compared to the English one? Which market do you think sponsors would rather hit, the Irish one or the French one?

There's no point in tiptoeing around this: the Irish provinces need the English and French sides more than the English and French sides need the Irish provinces. This is even more the case for the Welsh and Scottish sides. This isn't to say that the English and French sides don't benefit from the exposure of playing a high quality and well followed side like Leinster, but a bigger share of a slightly smaller pie is still likely to leave the English and French sides better off. What I'd expect to happen after leaving the HC is for the English and French to consider whether a competition involving some South African sides could be developed.

I think this would be disastrous for European rugby, and it won't happen because the Pro12 sides will make sufficient concessions to keep the HC running. Which is good as I want the English sides to become better than the Irish sides through hard work and talent development, not through pinching their best players.

by DaveM Tue May 08, 2012 12:38 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dave

The problem is a lot of Rabo teams have had a hugely injury struck season. The Blues have basically had a missing 15 throughout this season. The issue I think is more that Edinburgh made a semi with an average side because they were very clever in which games they bothered with, if every team just played a 2nd team in the rabo and full in th HC then there may be no Eng/fre semi finalists next season!

And that's part of the reason for the proposed changes. If an English or French side did that they wouldn't be in the HC next season, so instead they have to keep trying to win the domestic games and can't focus on the HC in the same way. At the time Leicester went out they were fighting to be in next year's competition. Unsurprisingly the English and French sides are getting increasingly fed up with this.

Of course the Pro12 is a different type of league, and in Ireland in particular the provinces are really supposed to be there to benefit the national side (ironically of course the Welsh have ended up with the better national side). This doesn't mean the different focus the Pro12 sides can place on the HC doesn't grate with the English and French sides though.

by Pot Hale Tue May 08, 2012 4:00 am

And what are the Pro12 countries/unions/clubs going to propose in response to this proposal?

It better not be "leave things as they are, just sort out your own problems" cos that ain't going to fly.

by Pot Hale Tue May 08, 2012 4:18 am

As a sidebar to this discussion, two things of note from the final weekend of the Premiership.

Newcastle were relegated despite beating Wasps. But they may not be really because of the strict rules for teams coming from Championship regarding ground sizes, ownership, etc. At the moment, Bristol who are in the playoffs, are possibly the only club who could be considered. And they got mightily hammered in the first leg. If Cornish Pirates were to win, they couldn't be promoted due to insufficient facilities.

So Newcastle may stay up despite being 'relegated'. It's not the first time this farce has happened. Brian Moore has an interesting piece on it in the Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9249565/Aviva-Premiership-Its-time-to-end-the-unfair-protection-for-the-big-boys-of-the-top-flight.html

This latest outcome with Newcastle seriously debunks the notion that Premiership teams have to slug it out from one end of the season to the other to avoid relegation - particularly when there mightn't be any.

The other thing that happened at the weekend was that Sale decided to field an all-English side in their match against Quins. The cynics might say they were chasing £200k extra from PRL for doing so, but their young team gave Quins a tough game nonetheless. Other coaches were less than pleased and critical of Sale.

Conor O'Shea, the Quins coach who recently complained about the Pro 12 sides resting and rotating their squads in prep for the Heinken Cup,might have been expected to give more of the same to his opponents tactics. On cue, he spent almost as much time post-match talking about his opponents’ selection than his own team.

O’Shea said criticism of Sale was unfair and that the Premiership was such a long competition that clubs had to develop big squads.

"Saracens talk about rotating all the time. Does rotating mean they’re weakening the side? No. I think that’s being unfair to a lot of outstanding young players that are coming through at Sale and they gave us one heck of a game.”

Hopefully he remembers to apply the same benevolent view next time he's asked to comment on Pro12 league teams.

by Glas a du Tue May 08, 2012 8:36 am

My view on the original post - seems a decent plan thumbsup

by **Biltong** Tue May 08, 2012 8:44 am

DaveM wrote:How important do you think the Irish market is to Sky compared to the English one? Which market do you think sponsors would rather hit, the Irish one or the French one?

There's no point in tiptoeing around this: the Irish provinces need the English and French sides more than the English and French sides need the Irish provinces. This is even more the case for the Welsh and Scottish sides. This isn't to say that the English and French sides don't benefit from the exposure of playing a high quality and well followed side like Leinster, but a bigger share of a slightly smaller pie is still likely to leave the English and French sides better off. What I'd expect to happen after leaving the HC is for the English and French to consider whether a competition involving some South African sides could be developed.

I think this would be disastrous for European rugby, and it won't happen because the Pro12 sides will make sufficient concessions to keep the HC running. Which is good as I want the English sides to become better than the Irish sides through hard work and talent development, not through pinching their best players.

I think the timing for this is all wrong for South Africa to be involved in europe. apart from that they only use it as a means to trhow their toys when things aren't going their way. They know the money is in SA, and New Zealand Rugby Union and Australia Rugby Union knows that. So all those threats of leaving the Super rugby agreement is just blowing smoke. They don't have the cahonies to do it.

by SecretFly Tue May 08, 2012 9:10 am

Dave M... about the idea again that the French and English sides don't either need the HC OR the Irish to prosper.

Of course they don't. They could have their own mini (or maxi) European competition and claim hefty Sky money and sponsorship rights accordingly. And they'd have their big populations and their big fan bases...and most important of all (as I keep saying it is) - the winners of the yearly jamboree would have the illusion of once again being the 'Best' in Europe. The image of 'Best' is a stong one - and that's the one that a lot of money and growth circulates around, regardless of how the Premiership League purists might argue against it.

No, it is not enough that your league is popular with fans, it's important to win it or be in with a real chance of winning it. That's where the buzz is both emotionally for fans and financially for the clubs themselves. And therefore, it is also important to win the HC if in it. The frustrations arise when winning stops, not when Pro12 sides start winning. When winning stops you can't call yourself the 'Best'.

So, I continue to repeat - nope, France and England going it alone will not be satisfactory for those clubs because no matter how often they use the tag 'Best side in Europe' - we Irish or Scottish or Welsh will be vocally and publically saying: "Oh no you're not - come play us and prove it".

And the lure of that challenge will grow and become unstoppable again and finally the French and English sides will once again be driven to prove it for honour, reputation and money's sake. When that happens, we'll all sit around a square table Wink

and negotiate something that will seem very very close in organisation to something that existed before - namely the HC Cup Wink

by maestegmafia Tue May 08, 2012 9:28 am

DaveM wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:Dave

The problem is a lot of Rabo teams have had a hugely injury struck season. The Blues have basically had a missing 15 throughout this season. The issue I think is more that Edinburgh made a semi with an average side because they were very clever in which games they bothered with, if every team just played a 2nd team in the rabo and full in th HC then there may be no Eng/fre semi finalists next season!

And that's part of the reason for the proposed changes. If an English or French side did that they wouldn't be in the HC next season, so instead they have to keep trying to win the domestic games and can't focus on the HC in the same way. At the time Leicester went out they were fighting to be in next year's competition. Unsurprisingly the English and French sides are getting increasingly fed up with this.

Of course the Pro12 is a different type of league, and in Ireland in particular the provinces are really supposed to be there to benefit the national side (ironically of course the Welsh have ended up with the better national side). This doesn't mean the different focus the Pro12 sides can place on the HC doesn't grate with the English and French sides though.

This reasoning for the Irish Provinces successes over all else touted on this thread so far does seem a little weak Leinster, Munster and Ulster have all worked hard to become the sides they are, they are good teams all year round in all competitions.

It is also not as though French and English clubs haven't had plenty of success in the HEC, have Haven't Tigers and Wasps even done the double in the HEC and Premiership, in fact most Premiership or Top 14 sides that do well in Europe are also invariably doing well in their domestic league. Like wise the Irish.

If Leinster were piddling around at the bottom of the Rabbo, showing little interest whilst dominating Europe you might have a point, but Leinster are favourites to do the double this year, HEC and Rabbo.

The reasons that English and French teams are not at the top of the HEC table is nothing to do with lack of money, ability to rest players, or the struggle for qualification. It is just that the French and English teams were not as good as the teams that beat them on the day and invariably only by a very small margin. The majority of HEC games are close scores. The Quality of the rugby is very good.

The only big difference is that English and French Teams are a lot more expensive to run than the Rabbo 12 teams because of the higher wages and quantity of Non home grown talent employed.

Though there are some interesting and possibly positive points raised in the OP and throughout this thread. Maybe a more sensible answer to equilibrium in the HEC is to put limits on non home grown players and reduce wage bills to a similar level throughout Europe. Encourage more talented young nationally qualified players at your home clubs and less foreigners eating up wage bills as they cash in pre-retirement.

by Portnoy Tue May 08, 2012 9:48 am

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Is the key point. The contract is coming to an end and is open for negotiation. The Rabo (well - the Irish really) is a closed shop where the only threat to next season is bankruptcy.
Plus a 100% guarantee of European competition. So there is no great imperative in winning or losing league matches.

Yes E&F are peeking over the wall and don't like what they see.
But they do have the right to negotiate before putting pen to paper.

As stakeholders in English domestic rugby, the clubs should demand no less of their representatives.

Whether anything comes of it is a moot point.

Certainly the PRL has thus far done everything in its power to handicap its sides in the chase for HEC success.

by maestegmafia Tue May 08, 2012 9:53 am

Portnoy wrote:
First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Is the key point. The contract is coming to an end and is open for negotiation. The Rabo (well - the Irish really) is a closed shop where the only threat to next season is bankruptcy.
Plus a 100% guarantee of European competition. So there is no great imperative in winning or losing league matches.

Yes E&F are peeking over the wall and don't like what they see.
But they do have the right to negotiate before putting pen to paper.

As stakeholders in English domestic rugby, the clubs should demand no less of their representatives.

Whether anything comes of it is a moot point.

Certainly the PRL has thus far done everything in its power to handicap its sides in the chase for HEC success.

Yes but the clubs in all countries involved in the competition should be looking to improve the tournament, not to improve their teams chances of winning whilst trying to make it more difficult for others.

We the fans want to see great rugby matches, that is what will draw us in and will increase TV money and advertising. If the odds are stacked towards one nation or another too much then the fans will lose interest.

by Portnoy Tue May 08, 2012 10:01 am

maestegmafia wrote:

Yes but the clubs in all countries involved in the competition should be looking to improve the tournament, not to improve their teams chances of winning whilst trying to make it more difficult for others.

We the fans want to see great rugby matches, that is what will draw us in and will increase TV money and advertising. If the odds are stacked towards one nation or another too much then the fans will lose interest.

Sounds like an argument using your logic to re-draft Rabo rules Maesteg. Relatively speaking it has hardly been a rampant success in S&W.

by maestegmafia Tue May 08, 2012 10:03 am

Portnoy wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:

Yes but the clubs in all countries involved in the competition should be looking to improve the tournament, not to improve their teams chances of winning whilst trying to make it more difficult for others.

We the fans want to see great rugby matches, that is what will draw us in and will increase TV money and advertising. If the odds are stacked towards one nation or another too much then the fans will lose interest.

Sounds like an argument using your logic to re-draft Rabo rules Maesteg. Relatively speaking it has hardly been a rampant success in S&W.

Not sure what you mean by Rabbo Rules?

by geoff998rugby Tue May 08, 2012 10:06 am

Portnoy wrote: Is the key point. The contract is coming to an end and is open for negotiation. The Rabo (well - the Irish really) is a closed shop where the only threat to next season is bankruptcy.
Plus a 100% guarantee of European competition.

Well with Newcastle almost certain not to be relegated you could argue Bankruptcy is the only threat in the Aviva as well.

The reality is English rugby at the top tier is, effectively, 14 teams. The Premership + Leeds and Bristol.

The reference to 100% is, as we all know, factually incorrect for 8 of the 12 Pro 12 teams.

by Portnoy Tue May 08, 2012 10:14 am

Maesteg - perhaps national promotion/relegation of club sides into the Rabo. The regions are not showing real signs of success are they? A more traditional league structure might reconsolidate traditional clubs like Cardiff RFC, Swansea, Llanell etc. Not to mention the normally abject Scottish sides.

by SecretFly Tue May 08, 2012 10:20 am

Portnoy wrote:Yes E&F are peeking over the wall and don't like what they see.

As stakeholders in English domestic rugby, the clubs should demand no less of their representatives.

They're peeking coz they are not winning.

Now, for volt face equality. We, the Pro12, are also, when we get a chance (and if the E&F put it up to us) looking over the wall too. And what we see we don't like - namely sides that have guaranteed six entries each and in recent years are proving over and over again that they hardly deserve them Wink

They (the E&F) really, really, really think that the idea of six guaranteed places for them isn't going to be debated if they start wanting changes to Pro12. That's what I'm sensing from the powers that be and the fans in England. They think their six each are guaranteed but that they have the right to question the slots of other nations. Playing possum won't work... and neither will a negotiating strategy that relies on playing possum.

by maestegmafia Tue May 08, 2012 10:27 am

Portnoy wrote:Maesteg - perhaps national promotion/relegation of club sides into the Rabo. The regions are not showing real signs of success are they? A more traditional league structure might reconsolidate traditional clubs like Cardiff RFC, Swansea, Llanell etc. Not to mention the normally abject Scottish sides.

Maybe.

Though when we had Club sides we didn't win the HEC either, despite Cardiff making a final and Llanelli the Semis. Since then Welsh rugby has metamorphosized through financially unsustainable Regions with 50-50 NWQs and WQ players to Regions that are sustainable by limiting NWQs and working hard with their home grown talent.

The move to sustainable investment in the academies has and will hurt our immediate chances of success, but we will all see dividends in the near future as young talent matures. They might even stay in Wales with the impending central contracting and IRB moves for compensation to clubs and regions for players moving abroad.

by Portnoy Tue May 08, 2012 10:27 am

I can't disagree with any of that SF.

Each league will play hard-ball in the negotiations to improve their own interests and will bring with them knowledge of their relative financial clout.

Not nice. But true. It's a professional sport now.

by **profitius** Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 am

The Englisha nd French see 3 leagues and 1 of those leagues has more advantages.

The reality is there are 6 countries! 4 countries happen to play in one league. Is that any business of the English or French teams?

I think having a proper qualification system would be good for the R12 but as a Munster fan its not something that would make much difference to my team.

by Glas a du Tue May 08, 2012 11:59 am

profitius wrote:The Englisha nd French see 3 leagues and 1 of those leagues has more advantages.

The reality is there are 6 countries! 4 countries happen to play in one league. Is that any business of the English or French teams?

I think having a proper qualification system would be good for the R12 but as a Munster fan its not something that would make much difference to my team.

I dont agree. I'm alright Jack wont wash any more. The Pro 12 need the English and French as much as they need us in the HC. Its time to wake up and grow up and make it the elite competition it tries to be but fails. Leave 'development' to the Amlin. No second chances there for HC teams.

by formerly known as Sam Tue May 08, 2012 12:05 pm

The Englisha nd French see 3 leagues and 1 of those leagues has more advantages.

The reality is there are 6 countries! 4 countries happen to play in one league. Is that any business of the English or French teams?

I don't think the English and French clubs give a knat's testicle about the make up of the Rabo league to be honest. They want to take four teams out of the competition in order to improve the share of the revenue received by the teams in their leagues. This is all about money and nothing to do with success. The rescheduling of the competition would also allow the final to be played in advance of the play offs allowing an uninterrupted build up to the end of season money spinner.

by Welshmushroom Tue May 08, 2012 12:14 pm

To be honest all I have heard all season is how the Rabbo Teams have an unfair advantage over the other leagues.

Everyone mentions Edinburgh's success this season and Ulsters. But lets look at it this way. Up to a couple of weeks ago Ulster where in the running for the play offs. Edinburgh making the Semi's is a total fluke in the sense no one expected them to probably make the Qtrs, let alone the Semi's. Infact Leinster have been the best team in the Rabbo league this season by a mile, and lets face it they are the ones who will win the HC (probably). For me the underdog has have a chance, otherwise we will end up with the exact same select pool of winners. For me that would kill the HC as a spectacle.

But for me and more importantly what disturbs me is that the English and French constantly undermine the competition when they lose and then look to strengthen their respective standings in the tournament. Maybe they would have a better chance of winning it if they just played a HC with English/French teams in it? Wouldnt really be much of an interesting tournament though. In truth they want to have the Premier names like Leinster in there but are happy enough to cut the rest loose.

For me this would be a perfect time to address the league season. I'd love it if Ireland,Scotland,Wales,Italy broke away and formed a World Club Cup each season with the Saffers,All Blacks,Australia & Japan (purely because of the financial clout they add). The commercial revenue would be good for such a world wide tournament plus adding the S15 teams would give us a good idea of who the best team in the world is.

From a Welsh perspective we could dump the Anglo Welsh cup (or at least totally make it development based - as it is already with some regions) and then we could move the Rabbo into one full window without interruptions. If we mirrored the S15 Season we could then easily arrange the Cup to fit in with the S15 sides. So we could then see the League, followed by the World Club cup and then a International period (including away tours and the 6 Nations).

Reality is that will never happen. Instead the French and English will probably end up getting their way as the Home Unions buckle under the pressure.

by formerly known as Sam Tue May 08, 2012 12:31 pm

love it if Ireland,Scotland,Wales,Italy broke away and formed a World Club Cup each season with the Saffers,All Blacks,Australia & Japan (purely because of the financial clout they add).

Leicester had already started to discuss that with some of the foreign unions before the last HEC contract was signed. The PRL would have backed it had the tenuous truce between the HEC unions failed to agree on new terms. It's quite an old story really.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Leicester-Tigers-World-title-cards/story-13544821-detail/story.html

by beshocked Tue May 08, 2012 12:51 pm

Let's be honest us English and French clubs have no excuses. We should be consistently better than most of the Pro12 sides. We have our supposedly best 6/7 clubs in the HC. Let's look at how to improve.

Should we really be intimidated by sides like Edinburgh,Connacht and Treviso? Of course not.

Edinburgh did well in the HC but are still a relatively small club. Normal service will likely resume next season but fair play to Edinburgh if they defy expectations again.

by **Biltong** Tue May 08, 2012 1:05 pm

I say this again, clubs should not be able to compete with regional teams.

When Ireland has 4 regional teams it means that their best players in each position is spread across 4 teams.

When you have 14 clubs, concerned with doing their own thing and 6 qualify for the HC, it doesn't mean it is their best players in each position, only their best clubs.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue May 08, 2012 1:06 pm

Pot Hale wrote:The other thing that happened at the weekend was that Sale decided to field an all-English side in their match against Quins. The cynics might say they were chasing £200k extra from PRL for doing so, but their young team gave Quins a tough game nonetheless. Other coaches were less than pleased and critical of Sale.

Conor O'Shea, the Quins coach who recently complained about the Pro 12 sides resting and rotating their squads in prep for the Heinken Cup,might have been expected to give more of the same to his opponents tactics. On cue, he spent almost as much time post-match talking about his opponents’ selection than his own team.

Sorry just to highlight this part of your post as I found it pretty interesting. If you were to turn on RTE during the Six Nations you would find O'Shea praising the IRFU and the provinces for keeping their players fresh for the EC matches and internationals. It's pretty revealing when he has his Quins hat on he says something completely different. I am also pretty sure at one point he said the salary cap had nothing to do with the failure of the English sides in the competition.

People see what they want in the relative strengths of the league. When English sides won consistently in the mid 2000s it was a long hard league campaign that conditioned them for the big matches. Now they are too tired, too battered to compete. If Ulster and Leinster had have lost their semis many fans would say that resting players in the Rabo meant they simply weren't conditioned for the big matches. The weaknesses of the EPL were their strengths not so long ago if you listen to fans and the press.

Many people are complaining about Edinburgh getting to the semi finals and abandoning their Rabo campaign. How then does one explain Northampton in 2006-2007 getting to the semi-final whilst getting relegated? (if I got my dates right). Whilst Leinster, Munster and the Ospreys have been accused of not taking the Rabo seriously in recent years, haven't those three teams held a near monopoly since its inception?

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue May 08, 2012 1:17 pm

biltongbek wrote:I say this again, clubs should not be able to compete with regional teams.

When Ireland has 4 regional teams it means that their best players in each position is spread across 4 teams.

When you have 14 clubs, concerned with doing their own thing and 6 qualify for the HC, it doesn't mean it is their best players in each position, only their best clubs.

I can agree with this, but only up to a point. In Ireland you are talking about a sport which is, at best, 4 or 5 most popular sport. Our playing base is vastly inferior to England whose clubs have as equal an historical importance, with the Irish provincial system long predating professionalism. The same certainly cannot be said for Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby, especially in Wales where it certainly appears many fans feel no identification with the regional sides. The Irish provincial system and the S15 franchise systems are completely different animals.

The IRFU have ensured that the provinces are feeder clubs to the Irish team, whilst the EPL are driven by self interest and revenue. Most English club sides have equal, and in many cases greater resources than most Rabo teams. It is simply the case that Rabo teams use their resources far batter. It also helps in our case that the IRFU centrally contract some international players so that their wages are effectively subsidised, though with that we cannot always pick them when, and in some cases in the positions the provinces desire. I can think of Paddy Wallace playing at 10 for Ulster on several occasions at the behest of the Irish setup.

by **Biltong** Tue May 08, 2012 1:22 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I say this again, clubs should not be able to compete with regional teams.

When Ireland has 4 regional teams it means that their best players in each position is spread across 4 teams.

When you have 14 clubs, concerned with doing their own thing and 6 qualify for the HC, it doesn't mean it is their best players in each position, only their best clubs.

I can agree with this, but only up to a point. In Ireland you are talking about a sport which is, at best, 4 or 5 most popular sport. Our playing base is vastly inferior to England whose clubs have as equal an historical importance, with the Irish provincial system long predating professionalism. The same certainly cannot be said for Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby, especially in Wales where it certainly appears many fans feel no identification with the regional sides. The Irish provincial system and the S15 franchise systems are completely different animals.

The IRFU have ensured that the provinces are feeder clubs to the Irish team, whilst the EPL are driven by self interest and revenue. Most English club sides have equal, and in many cases greater resources than most Rabo teams. It is simply the case that Rabo teams use their resources far batter. It also helps in our case that the IRFU centrally contract some international players so that their wages are effectively subsidised, though with that we cannot always pick them when, and in some cases in the positions the provinces desire. I can think of Paddy Wallace playing at 10 for Ulster on several occasions at the behest of the Irish setup.

Hookisms, more money isn't necessarily beneficial, just look at what these clubs do with that money, they are buying a few stars which still doesn't assist witht he colective in England or France.

I don't care whether a sport is thrid, fourth or ten most popular in a country. to be honest I think that is a cop out. In SA there is perhaps 20% of the population involved in Rugby Union, whereas Football is by far the most popular sport in SA.

You won't find any professional player who plays rugby going to beleive the hype on whether his sport being 4th most popular making him a worse player. The collective of Ireland is well served by playing their top players in 4 regions as opposed to having their talent spread amongst 10 or so teams.

Just look at SA, NZ and OZ, their players are spread amongst 5 teams and the step up from there is a lot less than having it spread amongst 10 teams.

apart of course of the 235 south Africans playing outside our borders.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue May 08, 2012 1:45 pm

biltongbek wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I say this again, clubs should not be able to compete with regional teams.

When Ireland has 4 regional teams it means that their best players in each position is spread across 4 teams.

When you have 14 clubs, concerned with doing their own thing and 6 qualify for the HC, it doesn't mean it is their best players in each position, only their best clubs.

I can agree with this, but only up to a point. In Ireland you are talking about a sport which is, at best, 4 or 5 most popular sport. Our playing base is vastly inferior to England whose clubs have as equal an historical importance, with the Irish provincial system long predating professionalism. The same certainly cannot be said for Scottish, Welsh and Italian rugby, especially in Wales where it certainly appears many fans feel no identification with the regional sides. The Irish provincial system and the S15 franchise systems are completely different animals.

The IRFU have ensured that the provinces are feeder clubs to the Irish team, whilst the EPL are driven by self interest and revenue. Most English club sides have equal, and in many cases greater resources than most Rabo teams. It is simply the case that Rabo teams use their resources far batter. It also helps in our case that the IRFU centrally contract some international players so that their wages are effectively subsidised, though with that we cannot always pick them when, and in some cases in the positions the provinces desire. I can think of Paddy Wallace playing at 10 for Ulster on several occasions at the behest of the Irish setup.

Hookisms, more money isn't necessarily beneficial, just look at what these clubs do with that money, they are buying a few stars which still doesn't assist witht he colective in England or France.

I don't care whether a sport is thrid, fourth or ten most popular in a country. to be honest I think that is a cop out. In SA there is perhaps 20% of the population involved in Rugby Union, whereas Football is by far the most popular sport in SA.

You won't find any professional player who plays rugby going to beleive the hype on whether his sport being 4th most popular making him a worse player. The collective of Ireland is well served by playing their top players in 4 regions as opposed to having their talent spread amongst 10 or so teams.

Just look at SA, NZ and OZ, their players are spread amongst 5 teams and the step up from there is a lot less than having it spread amongst 10 teams.

apart of course of the 235 south Africans playing outside our borders.

That is all very well and good, but you can argue that in Australia, where rugby union is perhaps 4th most popular sport, they have one team too many. At present they possibly don't have the playing base to justify five teams, whereas having four may make them more competitive. Simply put, in an professional age, Irish rugby could not support a self-sustaining club model that England and France currently have. In truth, the IRFU can only just about support four teams as things currently stand. Our model works for us due to player numbers in the country, whereas English sides, with a mass player base, can support many more competitive sides. English and French 'clubs' have fared pretty well until the past two or three seasons against 'regions'. This club vs region rationale for why they are under performing is another red herring.

by **Biltong** Tue May 08, 2012 2:00 pm

I would agree England can support more sides finacially and due to player numbers.

You guys must pray someone in the French and English rugby administrations don't wake up and realise regional teams will be much stronger by collectively combining teir best players rather than just the clubs.

It will be to their benefit and they should be a hell of a lot stronger in the HC.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue May 08, 2012 2:18 pm

biltongbek wrote:I would agree England can support more sides finacially and due to player numbers.

You guys must pray someone in the French and English rugby administrations don't wake up and realise regional teams will be much stronger by collectively combining teir best players rather than just the clubs.

It will be to their benefit and they should be a hell of a lot stronger in the HC.

It'll never ever ever happen. The EPL and Top 14 are governed by greed, not by the health of the wider game. Also, I go back to an earlier point I made, the provincial game suits the Irish teams since they have been in existence since the late nineteenth century. English sides like Leicester, Bath, Harlequins etc have existed as long, and in some cases longer than that. Look at the utter shambles of the Welsh regional system- neither the EPL or Top14 would do away with over a century of history to create regional teams.

by **Biltong** Tue May 08, 2012 2:20 pm

Oh, I realise chances are slim, but that has been their failing grace as well, since professionalism has spread across Europe, the performances of the english in particular has been rather dissappointing considering the player base they have.

It is almost like taking a factory BMW and compete against a Racing BMW where the focus is on using the best possible parts to compete, and not the most expensive parts.

by Feckless Rogue Tue May 08, 2012 2:43 pm

To be honest I think demoting the club game and playing regions would be a bad idea for England. Look at the Welsh regions. They haven't been wildly popular. And England's club game is just as traditional and well loved as the Welsh one. There's also the fact that unlike Wales, there's no imminent financial need to switch to regions.

And if they were to keep the domestic league but enter combined regions into the HC, it would be unworkable with the current European season with fixtures for different comps all over the place.

England could increase the salary cap. In that way the top clubs would have squads that can be rotated and compete better on all fronts. They could also get closer to the regional ideal of all the best players concentrated into a handful of top teams. But they wouldn't lose the club history.

At the end of the day the French have won 5 Heineken Cups, the English have been the most successful with 6, and the Irish are about to match them with a 6th this year. Nobody else has won any. The rise of the Irish has just made it tougher for the English and French to win it. So they have to raise their standards. Which is the whole point of cross border domestic rugby in the first place. To raise each others standards through tough competition.

Trying to set up a competition with no Irish teams in it is a cop out and we'll never catch the southern hemisphere big three until England & France man up and beat the Irish on the field. We all have to drive each others standards up, not refuse to play with teams who keep beating us.

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