French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

Biltong, the England players at the dawn of professionalism actually approached the RFU with basically this plan, with teams based on the North East, Lancashire, Yorkshire, the Midlands sides, Bath & Bristol, the major London clubs and couple of other according to demand (probably where Cornwall/Exeter area) with the players centrally contracted to the RFU playing to the strengths of both the county system (a major keystone of English amateur rugby) and the club loyalties where there were strong side (Leicester, Quins, etc.) - there would have been about 14 clubs from the far north to the south west in a ringfenced top tier, with international level players contracted to the RFU and "loaned" to the clubs but the clubs free to sign non contracted players to make up the side and of course a payment from the RFU towards running the club.

In other words pretty much the set up the IRFU use now.....

Of course the 57 old f4rts ran away screaming for their nannies and left the clubs at the mercy of "private investors" who are now not unpsurprisingly only interested in their investment and not the overall game.....

Thanks Irish, I suppose it is all about priorities, and now too late for any change.

Money talks, and the 57 old gasbags walks.

It'll never ever ever happen. The EPL and Top 14 are governed by greed, not by the health of the wider game

Note the only English clubs to turn a profit are Leicester (owned by the fans, there is no major shareholder and a dividend has never been paid), Northampton (owned by an old boy who loves the club and is certainly not a) a sugar daddy or b) taking money out) and Exeter are getting close but that is either family or fan owned I believe. The reason the English clubs seem greedy to the Rabo clubs is because they are forced to be sustainable, the Rabo clubs get large hand outs to support themselves.

Trying to set up a competition with no Irish teams in it is a cop out

Did you read the proposal in the OP? That's the last thing the English and French clubs want. They want a smaller competition in order for their clubs to take more money from the pot and to gain more voting power but they certainly do not want to get rid of the Rabo teams as it would limit the revenue streams! This is about money not who wins the cup!

Hindsight is a beautiful thing...!

Unfortunately there are now so many vested interests in the AP not changing that it is unlikely that it ever will. Only the threat of financial loss would force such serious change.

Time to forget nationality in the Rabo. It does not matter where the 6 (or 8) teams come from as long as they are the best.

biltongbek wrote:Thanks Irish, I suppose it is all about priorities, and now too late for any change.

Money talks, and the 57 old gasbags walks.

All sorts of flags were hoisted up the flagpole in those days.

The only way which clubs really knew how to spend dosh was to stuff wads down socks.

I agree with the general feeling that the English and French clubs have sour grapes, but at the end of the day money talks so this will happen.

"I am considerably richer than you"

LOADS OF MONEY....

I just laugh at the assumption that the Rabbo is a inferior league to the English/French leagues because of qualification for it.

There are just as many dead rubber games in those leagues as in the Rabbo.

Clermont and Toulouse for example had Qualification for the Rabbo tied up about 4/5 matches ago. Both these teams have even already secured their home qtr draws for the playoffs. So game 26 has no meaning to them whatsoever. On the other end of the scale Lyon have been relegated for quite a number of games and Brive are going into this weekend also going down. Neither of those have anything to play for either. Actually there are probably only about 1 or 2 key fixtures that really count this weekend in terms of actual qualification and relegation.

If you consider the teams who qualify for the HC from France with double the budgets compared to anyone else you would think they would have twice the playing squad numbers. Instead they opted to hike the prices up for buying foreign stars and then just started trying to play them for 30-40 matches a season. The reality is they just expect to much from their star signings. Ireland are ahead because they know you wont get more than 22-25 games (including internationals) out of top players.

England the releagtion is a joke anyway. Its basically ring fenced already with the club who get relegated only being demoted if the promoted club has earned the status (which very few have). Even then they are given enough money (parachute payment) to make sure they have a unfair advantage over the other side within the National division.

The reality (even with the recent player exodus), the Rabbo will provide more homegrown household names to the HC than any other league. The point I am making is that player popularity often hinges on their current national form. For example, everyone know who George North is now but did anyone in say France know him before the World Cup? I doubt it.

In France and England 90% of the playing pool dont represent anyone at all so have no real exposure. I would argue the difference being that only a very limited pool are exposed to the highest level of rugby (international) and therefore do not grow in terms of standards. This used to work for sides like Leicester and Wasps as they used to make up 80% of the current England squad. These days thats impossible for any English side to finance because of the salary cap and the inflation the French are putting on players salary expectations.

Welshmushroom wrote:I just laugh at the assumption that the Rabbo is a inferior league to the English/French leagues because of qualification for it.

There are just as many dead rubber games in those leagues as in the Rabbo.

Clermont and Toulouse for example had Qualification for the Rabbo tied up about 4/5 matches ago. Both these teams have even already secured their home qtr draws for the playoffs. So game 26 has no meaning to them whatsoever. On the other end of the scale Lyon have been relegated for quite a number of games and Brive are going into this weekend also going down. Neither of those have anything to play for either. Actually there are probably only about 1 or 2 key fixtures that really count this weekend in terms of actual qualification and relegation.

If you consider the teams who qualify for the HC from France with double the budgets compared to anyone else you would think they would have twice the playing squad numbers. Instead they opted to hike the prices up for buying foreign stars and then just started trying to play them for 30-40 matches a season. The reality is they just expect to much from their star signings. Ireland are ahead because they know you wont get more than 22-25 games (including internationals) out of top players.

England the releagtion is a joke anyway. Its basically ring fenced already with the club who get relegated only being demoted if the promoted club has earned the status (which very few have). Even then they are given enough money (parachute payment) to make sure they have a unfair advantage over the other side within the National division.

The reality (even with the recent player exodus), the Rabbo will provide more homegrown household names to the HC than any other league. The point I am making is that player popularity often hinges on their current national form. For example, everyone know who George North is now but did anyone in say France know him before the World Cup? I doubt it.

In France and England 90% of the playing pool dont represent anyone at all so have no real exposure. I would argue the difference being that only a very limited pool are exposed to the highest level of rugby (international) and therefore do not grow in terms of standards. This used to work for sides like Leicester and Wasps as they used to make up 80% of the current England squad. These days thats impossible for any English side to finance because of the salary cap and the inflation the French are putting on players salary expectations.

I'm not going to engage in a debate on this mushroom as it has been covered elsewhere. THe Jeff had one dead rubber last Saturday in terms of making a difference to relegation/Amlin/HEC/top four spots.

If the HC were to drop to 20 teams, as a neutral I'd quite like to see the top 5 from each of the Rabo, AP and Top14 go in, plus the winner from last year. The remaining 4 spots could then be used to firstly guarantee representation for all nations (you could set Wales and Ireland at a 2-team minimum, Scotland and Italy 1 minimum) and then any remaining spots dished out by Euro club ranking.

4 pools of 5 means that you get 2 quarterfinalists from each pool, nice and simple. And the Amlin gains in quality too.

Personally I think competition for spots would be good for the Rabo as a competition. It would certainly add spice for derby games.

That's far too much like common sense Kiwi.

I'm not going to engage in a debate on this mushroom as it has been covered elsewhere. THe Jeff had one dead rubber last Saturday in terms of making a difference to relegation/Amlin/HEC/top four spots

An 8 try dead rubber with a red card a piece. Quite a game actually.

I know Portnoy but im just making the point.

If they really wanted to see who the best is they could just have a UEFA style pregames qualifier. 36 Teams (3 Leagues) Home and Away legs to qualify for the HC. The reality is that England or France would never go for that incase they didnt have any representation at all in a worst case scenario. They could remove the EDF of the schedule to make way for the extra games. France should have the resource at any rate to cope with this model of qualification. To make this work though I would probably put the qualifiying number to 20 which means they would need to add 4 teams from spain, romania etc (who already play in the amlin) with a chance of qualification. They could also give each of the league champions auto qualification as well just to make sure each league has one representative in a worst case scenario.

Whats really a shame is that this is not what we will get, and actually the French and English are just looking to control the tournament. It's sad really because instead of expanding a budding european competition to a bigger european base, this move will essentially keep top level club rugby ring fenced.

Do you want the best teams playing or not? If so then it will be elitist. The Amlin provides the scope for development and inclusion and softy liberalism.

I am not sure the French and English clubs want to control the tournament. I accept they want some control - at the moment the english clubs have very little and the French have none whatsoever (though that is due to their Federation).

Of course from my side of the fence the Rabo clubs have all the control and wish to stop English/French having any say in what happens, whereas from the otehr side the view will be that power is shared fairly and everyone else should shut up.

Welshmushroom wrote:I know Portnoy but im just making the point.

If they really wanted to see who the best is they could just have a UEFA style pregames qualifier. 36 Teams (3 Leagues) Home and Away legs to qualify for the HC. The reality is that England or France would never go for that incase they didnt have any representation at all in a worst case scenario. They could remove the EDF of the schedule to make way for the extra games. France should have the resource at any rate to cope with this model of qualification. To make this work though I would probably put the qualifiying number to 20 which means they would need to add 4 teams from spain, romania etc (who already play in the amlin) with a chance of qualification. They could also give each of the league champions auto qualification as well just to make sure each league has one representative in a worst case scenario.

Whats really a shame is that this is not what we will get, and actually the French and English are just looking to control the tournament. It's sad really because instead of expanding a budding european competition to a bigger european base, this move will essentially keep top level club rugby ring fenced.

to quote myself from page one of this debate

Changes are required root and branch in all the leagues and in the governing bodies.

It is quite apposite that these proposals are published on the day the announcements of election results in France and Greece and the spectre of another threat on the Euro looms large again.

At National level, it is time for a multi-divisional Euro-Nations competition to replace the ring-fenced 6Ns.
4Ns Div 1
4Ns Div 2
Europe East Div 1*
Europe West Div 1 *
* playoffs between leaders to determine promotion.

European Competition: 8x4 HEC qualifiers top two from each qualify for ko-stages, Bottom 16 form the Amlin competition

League structures 2x10-team in each: Another opportunity for the Rabo to enhance it's European League credentials.

Wage caps allowable, but based on affordability in terms of % of turnover.

Whats really a shame is that this is not what we will get, and actually the French and English are just looking to control the tournament. It's sad really because instead of expanding a budding european competition to a bigger european base, this move will essentially keep top level club rugby ring fenced.

The HEC is ring fenced anyway. The only way a team not from one of the 6N teams could possibly qualify for the HEC is if they won the Amlin that is nigh on impossible. The addition of a third teir competition would actually be a more useful development tool for the smaller nations then having one team (if they're lucky) getting slaughtered in the Amlin. The HEC would be available to the same teams that are in it now only the qualification criteria would be tougher. Entrance via the Amlin and for the winners of the HEC is still allowed so additional places would be added dependent of victories.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not sure the French and English clubs want to control the tournament. I accept they want some control - at the moment the english clubs have very little and the French have none whatsoever (though that is due to their Federation).

Of course from my side of the fence the Rabo clubs have all the control and wish to stop English/French having any say in what happens, whereas from the otehr side the view will be that power is shared fairly and everyone else should shut up.

No,the Rabo clubs have no control either.It's the respective Unions of each country that have the control and I hope it stays that way,clubs in power have already ruined football and the same system is on the way to ruining English and French rugby (with France going first as they have more money).

I like Kiwi's suggestion in terms of the distribution of places in a 20 team HC. However I'd give a place to the Amlin winner as well as there would be no point strengthening the quality of the Amlin then removing the incentive of winning it. This leaves only 3 to ensure sufficient numbers from each country in the Rabo (minimum 2 irish, 2 welsh, 1 scottish, 1 italian - with top 5 plus up to 3 extra places there is no way this is unattainable). Any remaining spare places go to top ranked European sides, but this would be unlikely. If the winners of HC and/or Amlin are already qualified, an additional place goes to next highest team from that country in their domestic league.

It would be nice to have 4 pools of 5 and 2 qualifiers from each, but then you would need an extra 2 weekends for matches, which would be impossible. So it would need to be 5 pools of 4. Then the OP suggestion of (5+3) qualifiers works, ensuring healthy competition for top spot in the final weekend but also rewarding consistency. Then the remaining 2 second placed teams drop to the Amlin to make up quarter finals with pool winners from 6 pools of 4 in that competition. Every team not qualified for the HC from the AP, T14 and Rabo plays in the Amlin, with 6 spare places for developing nations, the Bucharest's etc that are currently involved.

The OP idea of 2 blocks of 3 matches in group stages is good as it would probably be fairer and challenge squad depth a bit. However the week 3 and 4 home and away head-to-heads we see currently are very exciting, so I can't decide on this issue.

I don't really see how this structure would annoy anyone, apart from those who currently have a free ride into the HC, but even they must accept it isn't fair to force English and French teams to scrap for places while basically guaranteeing them to the big 3 Irish provinces.

Forcing teams to qualify via their league could also toughen up some of the Celtic players, who at the moment face very few high intensity meaningful games each year. I believe this would benefit their national team. It is no coincidence that players who have to scrap in tight games each week in the AP transfer this dogged mentality to the international stage. How often over the last 10 years have England snuck tight games they didn't really deserve to win? And how often have Irish fans complained of their side's lack of killer instinct in close encounters? English players are forced to get into a habit of winning that their Celtic counterparts are not. This must be of benefit in test match rugby.

They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

It's an opening gambit pending contract renegotiation Itt.

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

I agree completely. England and France like to be the big boys of European rugby, in the HC and 6N they have had their asses handed to them by the Celts and they don't like it. They can't beat us on the pitch so now they are trying to beat us off the pitch - sad times.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

No,the Rabo clubs have no control either.It's the respective Unions of each country that have the control and I hope it stays that way,clubs in power have already ruined football and the same system is on the way to ruining English and French rugby (with France going first as they have more money).

+1 million

Well that's got to be the biggest load of cowpat I've read on here that was honestly meant. Some good points but a lot of gibberish.

Doesn't this happen pretty much every time negotiation are up? What was the reason in 2007? A premonition of the Irish success based on Munster's win in 2006?

And the resting thing is getting tiresome. The resting is enforced (much like the rest periods of the EPS players). I've got a feeling if you looked at all the available players you would generally get the 'best' team playing (within sensible rotation, similar to Cole/Castro, etc) Which of course suggests the idea that the provinces are better at resting players is complete cowpat. Nacewa was recently said that have only missed a few games since he's been he. The IRFU are good at resting their players for the HEC and Internationals.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well that's got to be the biggest load of cowpat I've read on here that was honestly meant. Some good points but a lot of gibberish.

Doesn't this happen pretty much every time negotiation are up? What was the reason in 2007? A premonition of the Irish success based on Munster's win in 2006?

And the resting thing is getting tiresome. The resting is enforced (much like the rest periods of the EPS players). I've got a feeling if you looked at all the available players you would generally get the 'best' team playing (within sensible rotation, similar to Cole/Castro, etc) Which of course suggests the idea that the provinces are better at resting players is complete cowpat. Nacewa was recently said that have only missed a few games since he's been he. The IRFU are good at resting their players for the HEC and Internationals.

Well Said

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

I agree completely. England and France like to be the big boys of European rugby, in the HC and 6N they have had their asses handed to them by the Celts and they don't like it. They can't beat us on the pitch so now they are trying to beat us off the pitch - sad times.

yeah becuase the irish really handed the english their asses in the last 6 nations game...

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

I agree completely. England and France like to be the big boys of European rugby, in the HC and 6N they have had their asses handed to them by the Celts and they don't like it. They can't beat us on the pitch so now they are trying to beat us off the pitch - sad times.

yeah becuase the irish really handed the english their asses in the last 6 nations game...

"Tough love at the Scrum" by Nigel Owens

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

I agree completely. England and France like to be the big boys of European rugby, in the HC and 6N they have had their asses handed to them by the Celts and they don't like it. They can't beat us on the pitch so now they are trying to beat us off the pitch - sad times.

yeah becuase the irish really handed the english their asses in the last 6 nations game...

I think you will find that you had your arses whipped in the International arena by a Celtic nation - Wales

I think you will find that you had your arses whipped in the Club arena by a Celtic nation - Ireland

Saucy!

HammerofThunor wrote:Well that's got to be the biggest load of cowpat I've read on here that was honestly meant. Some good points but a lot of gibberish.

Doesn't this happen pretty much every time negotiation are up? What was the reason in 2007? A premonition of the Irish success based on Munster's win in 2006?

And the resting thing is getting tiresome. The resting is enforced (much like the rest periods of the EPS players). I've got a feeling if you looked at all the available players you would generally get the 'best' team playing (within sensible rotation, similar to Cole/Castro, etc) Which of course suggests the idea that the provinces are better at resting players is complete cowpat. Nacewa was recently said that have only missed a few games since he's been he. The IRFU are good at resting their players for the HEC and Internationals.

+1

Interestingly when I suggested that someone monitor one of the leading AViva sides to see how much rotation takes place next season which could be compared to my side, Ulster, no one took up the challange.

Wonder why

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well that's got to be the biggest load of cowpat I've read on here that was honestly meant. Some good points but a lot of gibberish.

Doesn't this happen pretty much every time negotiation are up? What was the reason in 2007? A premonition of the Irish success based on Munster's win in 2006?

And the resting thing is getting tiresome. The resting is enforced (much like the rest periods of the EPS players). I've got a feeling if you looked at all the available players you would generally get the 'best' team playing (within sensible rotation, similar to Cole/Castro, etc) Which of course suggests the idea that the provinces are better at resting players is complete cowpat. Nacewa was recently said that have only missed a few games since he's been he. The IRFU are good at resting their players for the HEC and Internationals.

Well Said

+1

Re the French and English leagues and resting players.

Leicester and Toulouse are the 2 most successful clubs in their countries. Maybe this is a coincidence, pure chance, a fluke but they happen to be the 2 teams that rotate thier squad the most in those leagues.

Now, its probably all luck that they're the top teams over the last decade. Rotating players keeps them fresher and therefore able to perform better but that doesn't have anything to do with playing well at the business end of seasons, does it.

I think Leicester Tigers and Toulouse are bad for their leagues because they don't take their leagues seriously. All that changing of players means they hardly ever play their best team. What message does that send to their fans? I bet nobody turns up to see them sending out weakened teams.

(Maybe they should be kicked out of their leagues. Not because they win things but because they have an unfair advantage! :P)

geoff998rugby wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well that's got to be the biggest load of cowpat I've read on here that was honestly meant. Some good points but a lot of gibberish.

Doesn't this happen pretty much every time negotiation are up? What was the reason in 2007? A premonition of the Irish success based on Munster's win in 2006?

And the resting thing is getting tiresome. The resting is enforced (much like the rest periods of the EPS players). I've got a feeling if you looked at all the available players you would generally get the 'best' team playing (within sensible rotation, similar to Cole/Castro, etc) Which of course suggests the idea that the provinces are better at resting players is complete cowpat. Nacewa was recently said that have only missed a few games since he's been he. The IRFU are good at resting their players for the HEC and Internationals.

+1

Interestingly when I suggested that someone monitor one of the leading AViva sides to see how much rotation takes place next season which could be compared to my side, Ulster, no one took up the challange.

Wonder why

geoff, I'll take up the challenge with Exeter if you like? Just let me know what I need to monitor, remind me at the beginning of the season and consider it done

No professional player rests. They just do different activity. Training is a constant. The regime is so punishing though they are easily broken in contact. Players should play more and train less. This has nothing to do with the HC.

ASBO sure.

To be fair I think you will win, but not by much, as Exeter would not have a squad of much depth as more established Aviva sides.

The teams I reckon do rotate more than Ulster are Leicester and Saracens and about the same Saints and Gloucester.

Anyway well worth doing and will be an interesting empirical analysis.
Basically thinking along the lines:

You name the best XV at the start of each the month
A mark is lost if one of those XV do not start a game during the month
Players unavailable due to International requirements dont count
Players unavailable due to injury dont count - that could be the hardest to measure

We can discuss details nearer the time but that is the gist of my thinking.
It would be great if a few Aviva and Pro12 team participated but we could get the thing rolling.

geoff998rugby wrote:

nathan wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Intotouch wrote:They're using blackmail. Give in to this blackmail and they'll keep doing it.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will.

Any proposal that would mean two countries in Europe could be excluded from the h cup goes against the whole reason this was set up.

Maybe France and England should pull out of the 6 nations too. The two nations has a great ring to it don't you think?

I agree completely. England and France like to be the big boys of European rugby, in the HC and 6N they have had their asses handed to them by the Celts and they don't like it. They can't beat us on the pitch so now they are trying to beat us off the pitch - sad times.

yeah becuase the irish really handed the english their asses in the last 6 nations game...

I think you will find that you had your arses whipped in the International arena by a Celtic nation - Wales

I think you will find that you had your arses whipped in the Club arena by a Celtic nation - Ireland

Sigh Wales only just about beat England in the 6 nations. That's hardly a whipping. England vs Ireland on the other hand....

In the club arena - yes the Irish clubs did well against the English ones. I suppose you could argue that was a whipping.

Geoff as I said before my side efficiently dispatched the Pro12 sides they faced this season. I am not too worried by the Celts in general.

The biggest threats are Leinster and Clermont.

Beshocked I know my post was provocative but really just in response to Nathan's obtuse post rather than a considered evaluation i.e directed at one individual not English posters or the English game as a whole.

My considered (and considerably biased) view is that England were an early ankle tap away from a whipping. That first ten minutes were psychologically massive in the context of the game.

I think Leicester Tigers and Toulouse are bad for their leagues because they don't take their leagues seriously. All that changing of players means they hardly ever play their best team. What message does that send to their fans?

WUM. Tigers could do with more rotation as generally players are only changed due to injury and international call ups.

These clubs don't give a toss what's best for rugby in Europe. They never will

.

This sentiment has been expressed a few times.

Yet the same posters will then bang on how succesful THEIR team/province/region is because they are full of home grown talent.

So where is the benefit to European rugby in these closed shop arrangements?

How does the RABO and HEC set up at the minute benefit European rugby? It seems to me the RABO teams are doing in fact quite the opposite - 'not one of us mate or not willing to become one of us' - well sod off back to whatever Union you come from and if you want to see top level rugby - well watch us do out thing on Sky.

So, in the same vein as in The Life of Brian, what has the Rabo league ever done for Europe?

1) Well - we let 2 Italian sides buy their way in.
2) ............................
3) Did we mention the Italians?
4) ??????
5) Where is Europe again?
6) Wales, Ireland, Scotland are all European countries - or subdivisions of European Countries - we help them (charity starts at home)
7) We go on holiday to Europe.


Feel free to add more

geoff998rugby wrote:ASBO sure.

To be fair I think you will win, but not by much, as Exeter would not have a squad of much depth as more established Aviva sides.

The teams I reckon do rotate more than Ulster are Leicester and Saracens and about the same Saints and Gloucester.

Anyway well worth doing and will be an interesting empirical analysis.
Basically thinking along the lines:

You name the best XV at the start of each the month
A mark is lost if one of those XV do not start a game during the month
Players unavailable due to International requirements dont count
Players unavailable due to injury dont count - that could be the hardest to measure

We can discuss details nearer the time but that is the gist of my thinking.
It would be great if a few Aviva and Pro12 team participated but we could get the thing rolling.

Right, got all of that, will do my best - you will definitely need to remind me nearer the time tho

geoff998rugby wrote:Beshocked I know my post was provocative but really just in response to Nathan's obtuse post rather than a considered evaluation i.e directed at one individual not English posters or the English game as a whole.

and i was merely replying to artful_dodger

geoff998rugby wrote:ASBO sure.

To be fair I think you will win, but not by much, as Exeter would not have a squad of much depth as more established Aviva sides.

The teams I reckon do rotate more than Ulster are Leicester and Saracens and about the same Saints and Gloucester.

Anyway well worth doing and will be an interesting empirical analysis.
Basically thinking along the lines:

You name the best XV at the start of each the month
A mark is lost if one of those XV do not start a game during the month
Players unavailable due to International requirements dont count
Players unavailable due to injury dont count - that could be the hardest to measure

We can discuss details nearer the time but that is the gist of my thinking.
It would be great if a few Aviva and Pro12 team participated but we could get the thing rolling.

i'll try and do it for the Tigers if you want.

Geoff tensions are high when nationalities clash - particularly AP vs Pro12 clash.

My point of view is that the English and French clubs need to focus on how to beat the Celtic clubs, particularly the Irish.That's the most important thing.

On the other hand it wouldn't be bad to contemplate a rejigged HC. I think a lot of AP fans are annoyed by the perceived lack of intensity in the Pro12. As most pro12 sides auto qualify for the HC there is no punishment for performing badly in the Pro12.

Edinburgh are a perfect example of performing really badly in the Pro12 but performing well in the HC. They will not receive any punishment.


It's all about finding a happy compromise.

Ok thats Tigers and Exeter in - any more takers for the Pro 12.

I'll contact you guys nearer the time.
I'll put a reminder in my diary after my holiday - Mid August.

I'll contact you then.
Will try and gain some more recruits in the meantime.

If it takes off hopefully the Moderators will add it as a sticky

TrailApe wrote: How does the RABO and HEC set up at the minute benefit European rugby?

How does the Aviva and Top14 set up at the minute benefit European rugby ?

Geoff it's interesting one.

I might well do it for Saracens.

The reason why Leicester and Saracens have been so consistent in the AP is that they have strength in depth (obviously only Saracens in the last three seasons).

Examples

Leicester has two first choice tight heads like Castro and Cole to choose from.

Saracens has two fly halves like Farrell and Hodgson to choose from.

That makes 4 team.

I just think it would be an interesting analysis.

So much is banded around your team/league rotate players more than my team/league. It would be good to see the facts.

geoff998rugby wrote:

TrailApe wrote: How does the RABO and HEC set up at the minute benefit European rugby?

How does the Aviva and Top14 set up at the minute benefit European rugby ?

What counts as European rugby?

If the HC seriously wants to be properly European it needs like the likes of Portugal,Spain and Germany to be involved.

Also where do the countries like Georgia,Russia and Romania fit into the mix?

Italian rugby still needs to grow. Treviso are getting stronger - I thought they did really well in the HC this season - almost beat the English champions, should have really taken the scalp of O's and beat Biarritz.

The strength in depth thing is clearly where Leinster come from - when you have Healy, Cronin, Toner, McLaughlin, Boss, Madigan, McFadden etc in your 2nd XV rotation is a perfectly understandable policy.