French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

And the celtic teams would never agree to the risk of not being represented by a 2nd side when they have 3 guarentee'd spots now, so why are we arguing this idea?!

HammerofThunor wrote:

? So due to the complaints from the English and French clubs you expect them to drop 3 places between them and the PRO12 teams to drop 1 spot between the 4 unions? Is that an honest suggestion that you think would be seriously considered or are you just saying what you want to happen?

As Bluesman has said, every team loses a place. If anything English and French teams now have an oppertunity for a greater slice of the pie IF they#re good enough. They have potentially 7 teams in it. If they did that would almost be as much as the 4 Rabo countries put together who would have 9 teams.

You'll also get a big match in the playoff between the English and French qualifier.

the bluesmancometh my point is that Edinburgh can throw all their resources into the HC with no consequences.

Bit harsh on Toulon - they were in the 2nd toughest group last season and topped the pool!

You call Gloucester a poor side yet they beat Toulouse, just like Edinburgh did.

Toulouse were shown to be out of sorts by both Quins and Gloucester. Quins were foolish by slipping up Connacht.


I would like to see the Pro12 sides believe they could run the HC without the English and French clubs.

Because the English and French clubs have given notice that they're pulling out.

The newly proposed system will have to be better for the clubs than the current one otherwise they will pull out. It might only be slightly better but better it will be.

When is that play-off match supposed to be played? Fixtures are already piling up. Also Maximum number of teams now is 7 and the minimum number of PRO12 teams is 10.

Money does not indicate ownership, it is a bargaining chip but little else. In reality losing the French and or English clubs from the tourny would hurt the Rabo teams but would introduce the rest of europe to it

A big bargaining chip considering the precarious finances of both the Welsh and Scottish clubs. No English and no French clubs would almost certainly mean no Sky package and the sponsors would not be endorsing the Rabo league plus smaller nations.

Quins were foolish by slipping up Connacht.

Quins were a tad unfortunate that the game was played in awful conditions that severely hampered their free flowing style and allowed Connacht to disrupt and snatch a win.

And the celtic teams would never agree to the risk of not being represented by a 2nd side when they have 3 guarentee'd spots now, so why are we arguing this idea?!

Because they are financially vunerable and having a slightly smaller slice of the pie is better than having none.

No it isn't!!! Allowing bullies who cannot compete to change things to their way of liking to help them compete isn't what any nation is going to allow.

If you win it be happy, if you don't and struggle change your system, not throw the toys out of the pram and threaten to take your ball home. The English clubs need the HC as much as anyone, and will go nowhere, at present they are piggybacking the French hissy fit to try to get what they want!

Quins were not unfortunate, they were certainly not good enough, poor weather is a part of the game, if you can't play it you are not good enough!!!

HammerofThunor wrote:Currently the system is that 10 out PRO12 qualify. The suggested system above would be 9 out PRO12 would qualify. What would happen is that the worst place team (almost certainly the brand new Italian side) would lose qualifcation. Also one for the Scottish places may get lost to a province/region. On the counter to that the English clubs would lose 2 places. Why would they EVER agree to that when they already complain they don't get as much out of it as they should? It might be fair or better or whatever but their is no way the French or English clubs would agree to it.

Connacht could potentially lose out too, fi an Irish team wins the HEC since the reward for winning the HEC goes to the league, not to teams from the same country.

My proposal rewards teams for winning and it also gives the English and French what they want, qualifing by league position in the Rabo.

The Welsh will hardly be complaining either since their fans want a more competitive Rabo. The Italians could be the losers in all of this but then again the fight for league position will mean more to their fans so more fans might watch games. The Irish will voice an opposition too I'd imagine. why would they want to change things. I believe however that they should be looking to give a little back since the HEC has been good for Irish rugby (and the Irish people good for the HEC)

Actions speak louder than words, folks. The HEC matters to the English and French, as seen by their actions. No point pretending it only matter to Rabo teams. The HEC is growing, getting bigger all the time and that brings with it more money.

By the way, since we're on about slice of pies and money. Have you counted the money from the semi finals and final? Doesn't all those gate receipts go to the ERC?

Heineken the sponsors, how much are they paying? Who takes credit for that sponsorship, Englisha nd French clubs?

The English and French clubs are bullies because they are threatening to take the money they generate away from the PRO12 clubs? That doesn't make them bullies, it makes the Regions spungers.

The English were saying the same thing in 2007 when they had 3 teams in the semis.

They really really don't need the HEC as much as the PRO12 teams do. If they did for an Angle-French competition they would still get a decent sponsorship and TV deal and it would be split 2 ways rather than 6 ways. Given the disgust given to the English selling out to Sky I can't see the PRO12 selling the rights to Sky or ESPN so they're stuck with the BBC deal. A huge chunk of the money given by the WRU to the regions is based on the HEC money. The Irish Provinces have obviously gotten a lot out of it over the years.

I would love an Anglo-French cup. It would make my day (I may even get sky again to watch it when they buy the rights) (it would be nice if the Provinces could join in as they bring a lot to the table but I don't they could while in the PRO12, or probably want to)

Profitus, I understand what you're saying but basing the qualifcation by league position when between 75% and 92% of the teams qualify is a bit pointless.

poor weather is a part of the game, if you can't play it you are not good enough!!!

So why do the Welsh always squawk on about teams wanting to keep the Millenium Stadium roof open?

And I think its a bit daft to compare preliminary contract negatiations to 'bullying'. If the commercial considerations warrant it the French and English clubs have every right to use their strengths to fight for a better share of whatever they want. It's a professional sport and whilst the Rugby on the field is the end product its not played in a vacuum.

And here's a thought, if the nasty Anglo-French do dealings in the background with the IRFU (the 'celtic' side that does well in the HC) the rest of the Rabo unions are going to look very vulnerable.

Not that I'm suggesting that this would happen......

No it isn't!!! Allowing bullies who cannot compete to change things to their way of liking to help them compete isn't what any nation is going to allow

I think you'll find it's about money and development rather than results. If the clubs really wanted to handicap the Irish teams this is not the way to do it, is it? Think about it, Leinster are way out in front in the Rabo and that is with the rotation of their team and saving some of the big names for the HEC. Munster are in a similar position, Ulster don't move their team about to much (other than to occasionally throw out a youth team) and would also qualify. 2 of the 3 would qualify with ease most seasons.

HammerofThunor wrote:The English and French clubs are bullies because they are threatening to take the money they generate away from the PRO12 clubs? That doesn't make them bullies, it makes the Regions spungers.

The English were saying the same thing in 2007 when they had 3 teams in the semis.

They really really don't need the HEC as much as the PRO12 teams do. If they did for an Angle-French competition they would still get a decent sponsorship and TV deal and it would be split 2 ways rather than 6 ways. Given the disgust given to the English selling out to Sky I can't see the PRO12 selling the rights to Sky or ESPN so they're stuck with the BBC deal. A huge chunk of the money given by the WRU to the regions is based on the HEC money. The Irish Provinces have obviously gotten a lot out of it over the years.

I would love an Anglo-French cup. It would make my day (I may even get sky again to watch it when they buy the rights) (it would be nice if the Provinces could join in as they bring a lot to the table but I don't they could while in the PRO12, or probably want to)

Profitus, I understand what you're saying but basing the qualifcation by league position when between 75% and 92% of the teams qualify is a bit pointless.

I get you Thunor. It's the old Eurovision conundrum.

A few countries pay for it and therefore should always 'Qualify' to enter it - but seldom win it

Good business plan both for Fairness AND effectiveness.

beshocked wrote:I would like to see the Pro12 sides believe they could run the HC without the English and French clubs.

Surely the HC without English and French clubs is just the Pro12 anyway?

jeffwinger wrote:

beshocked wrote:I would like to see the Pro12 sides believe they could run the HC without the English and French clubs.

Surely the HC without English and French clubs is just the Pro12 anyway?

Equally the HC with out the Pro 12 is meaningless

Would people watch the HC if the RFU and FFF put in Div 2 teams. I could see the FFF doing it to stick it to the clubs. The Div 2 sides would also like it.

Could the Rabo do a HC type cup and add in other countries. It wouldn't be the best for the first few years like it was with the Rabo but it would grow and the Rabo countries would own it. They could also invite the 6th SAFA team

thebluesmancometh wrote:And the celtic teams would never agree to the risk of not being represented by a 2nd side when they have 3 guarentee'd spots now, so why are we arguing this idea?!

Because contracts are up for renegotiation soon, and the French & English judge that they can probably sell TV rights to an Anglo-French competition for nearly as much as the HEC. They've set out an initial bargaining position, odds are they expect to get some of what they're asking for but not all of it - that's why it's called "bargaining".

They've suggested reducing the HEC to 20 teams, which would simplify the pool organisation (4 pools of 5), personally I doubt they'll get that (less games=less TV money) unless they can persuade the broadcasters of the benefits of an improved Amlin.

Yesterday I put up a suggested organisation to a 20-team comp that had similarities to Profitius's idea, refining it slighty (as I can't be bothered reading back to check what I said )

Top 5 teams from Eng (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Eng)
Top 5 teams from Fra (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Fra)
Top 5 teams from Rabo (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Rabo nation)
Top-up - 1 team from any Rabo nation that didn't make the top 5 (so 0-2 teams added)
HEC winner
Amlin winner
+1-3 teams based on Euro club rankings from those not already qualified

So form domestically is rewarded, form in Europe is rewarded, no 6N country misses out, teams from outside the 6N could potentially qualify via the Amlin if they perform well enough.

In addition, the Rabo becomes a bit more competitive, which can be used as a selling point to build the fan base.

And adapting my 20-team comp to 24:
Top 6 teams from Eng (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Eng)
Top 6 teams from Fra (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Fra)
Top 6 teams from Rabo (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Rabo nation)
Top-up - 1 team from any Rabo nation that didn't make the top 5 (so 0-2 teams added)
HEC winner
HEC runner-up
Amlin winner
+1-3 teams based on Euro club rankings from those not already qualified.

So based on current league positions you'd have
HEC qualifiers
Leinster
Ulster

Amlin Qualifiers
Biaritz/Toulon

Rabo qualifiers:
Ospreys
Munster
Glasgow
Scarlets
Cardiff
Connact
Top up:
Benetton Treviso

English Qualifiers
Harlequins
Leicester
Saracens
Northampton
Exeter
Sale

French Qualifiers
Clermont
Toulouse
Montpelier
Castres
Racing Metro
Toulon/Stade Francais

Rankings qualifiers:
Cardiff Blues
Biaritz/Stade Francais

ERC rankings might need tweaking to account for a few more factors (so more points for winning etc, and points issued for doing well in the Amlin) but you wind up with a system which rewards performance and guarantees participation.

I think your all alittle lost here.

The point is about money, the fact that the English sides can't qualify through to the knockouts, the fact that the French can't win it, and the fact that the smaller Rabo sides are getting stronger and stronger and within a few seasons it's not too incredulous to say that both bigger nations will struggle to win games let alone qualify!

This is far more about the Scot and Italian teams starting to make an impact, than the Irish teams dominating it.

With the Wales national team outshining everyone this year, they know the international players are there for the regions and next season if all Rabo teams perform well it could well be an all Rabo 1/4 final!

Define bullying? Are the French and English saying they will pull out unless the Rabo teams change their system?

a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

Do the English and French not use their size and influence every contract negotiation to try to get what they want?

KIWI

Couldn't read it all too long mate. But from what I did read you have one pretty big flaw...

The Rabo does not hold an equal share of the pie to the AP and top 14, it holds 50% of the share of the tournament, so allowing it, and the 4 nations represented in it the same amount of spots as the other 2 leagues will never happen!

It's going to get to a point where you guys don't want the GS champs represented at all, then the Irish have to be ditched for being too strong at club level. This is a pathetic suggestion.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:And the celtic teams would never agree to the risk of not being represented by a 2nd side when they have 3 guarentee'd spots now, so why are we arguing this idea?!

Because contracts are up for renegotiation soon, and the French & English judge that they can probably sell TV rights to an Anglo-French competition for nearly as much as the HEC. They've set out an initial bargaining position, odds are they expect to get some of what they're asking for but not all of it - that's why it's called "bargaining".

They've suggested reducing the HEC to 20 teams, which would simplify the pool organisation (4 pools of 5), personally I doubt they'll get that (less games=less TV money) unless they can persuade the broadcasters of the benefits of an improved Amlin.

Yesterday I put up a suggested organisation to a 20-team comp that had similarities to Profitius's idea, refining it slighty (as I can't be bothered reading back to check what I said )

Top 5 teams from Eng (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Eng)
Top 5 teams from Fra (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Fra)
Top 5 teams from Rabo (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Rabo nation)
Top-up - 1 team from any Rabo nation that didn't make the top 5 (so 0-2 teams added)
HEC winner
Amlin winner
+1-3 teams based on Euro club rankings from those not already qualified

So form domestically is rewarded, form in Europe is rewarded, no 6N country misses out, teams from outside the 6N could potentially qualify via the Amlin if they perform well enough.

In addition, the Rabo becomes a bit more competitive, which can be used as a selling point to build the fan base.

And adapting my 20-team comp to 24:
Top 6 teams from Eng (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Eng)
Top 6 teams from Fra (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Fra)
Top 6 teams from Rabo (excl. last HEC and Amlin winner if from Rabo nation)
Top-up - 1 team from any Rabo nation that didn't make the top 5 (so 0-2 teams added)
HEC winner
HEC runner-up
Amlin winner
+1-3 teams based on Euro club rankings from those not already qualified.

So based on current league positions you'd have
HEC qualifiers
Leinster
Ulster

Amlin Qualifiers
Biaritz/Toulon

Rabo qualifiers:
Ospreys
Munster
Glasgow
Scarlets
Cardiff
Connact
Top up:
Benetton Treviso

English Qualifiers
Harlequins
Leicester
Saracens
Northampton
Exeter
Sale

French Qualifiers
Clermont
Toulouse
Montpelier
Castres
Racing Metro
Toulon/Stade Francais

Rankings qualifiers:
Cardiff Blues
Biaritz/Stade Francais

ERC rankings might need tweaking to account for a few more factors (so more points for winning etc, and points issued for doing well in the Amlin) but you wind up with a system which rewards performance and guarantees participation.

It's a long way of still saying French and English clubs maintain their status quo allocation of HC places and the other nations lose out. Nope. Not a goer. Try something along the lines of reducing French and English allocations to four each and work around that. There is no way either France or England deserve 6 places each (and I continue to repeat - THAT is the sticking point, the idea that HC allocations are happy babies of Leagues - they are not, they are national, and a lot of national pride comes with them) So try a solution that more fairly reduces ALL allocations - including those of France and England.

geoff998rugby wrote:

jeffwinger wrote:

beshocked wrote:I would like to see the Pro12 sides believe they could run the HC without the English and French clubs.

Surely the HC without English and French clubs is just the Pro12 anyway?

Equally the HC with out the Pro 12 is meaningless

There is a difference of impact for each league.

France's domestic competition does not need the HC. Infact they want to move to a 16 team league so they are probably looking for fixture dates.

England despite being the richest union, having the biggest player base, do need the funding for the HC. Only one club runs at a profit according to my records and very few are spending the wage cap without the assistance of benefactors.


Ireland, Wales, Italy, Scotland are in a different boat. The Unions to are already funding their own models. Ireland are getting massive gates over there now even for rabbo matches so the impact other than the achievement of winning it probably wouldnt affect them except for fixtures and some revenue stream. Wouldnt stop them from running though.

Wales, Scotland & Italy on the other hand have poor gates no matter where they play or what in for that matter. But the Unions will pick up the tabs in order for it to work. On a positive note its actually a good thing because if they can build their products now - eventually the fans will come.


For my part I would love to see the Rabbo sides join the S15 sides + some japanese select clubs and form the world club cup. We could then build our season into a more structured season for fans plus we could look to progress by playing the best unions in world rugby. I cant imagine that the image for the rights for a tournament wouldnt make a truck load of cash so should be a good earner for each union/region/province who participates.

Something like that would eventually have the Engish crawling back once the French decided to just focus on domestic glory and boycott the anglo-french setup once it becomes less financially viable.

A world club cup would be brilliant, with the top couple of sides from every rugby nation competing. Logistically it would be impossible.

If the negotiations go like this I think we won't have a HEC in 2 years time.

I'd love to see a world club cup. I'm sure that SANZAR will drop their S15 for extra travel and the massive viewing population of Welsh, Scotland and Ireland.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd love to see a world club cup. I'm sure that SANZAR will drop their S15 for extra travel and the massive viewing population of Welsh, Scotland and Ireland.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I think your all alittle lost here.

The point is about money, the fact that the English sides can't qualify through to the knockouts, the fact that the French can't win it, and the fact that the smaller Rabo sides are getting stronger and stronger and within a few seasons it's not too incredulous to say that both bigger nations will struggle to win games let alone qualify!

This is far more about the Scot and Italian teams starting to make an impact, than the Irish teams dominating it.

With the Wales national team outshining everyone this year, they know the international players are there for the regions and next season if all Rabo teams perform well it could well be an all Rabo 1/4 final!

Define bullying? Are the French and English saying they will pull out unless the Rabo teams change their system?

a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

Do the English and French not use their size and influence every contract negotiation to try to get what they want?

sure that's called leverage not bullying though ... all good business practice my friend. bullying would be to not negociate at all.
all unions have their issues and obviously they all want different things so one way or another some sort of compromise will be made.

one of the problems here seems to define what is the HC : for me it should be an Elite competition where we have only the best teams from all unions (dont care if there is only 5 french afterall as long as they compete) with less games (so less teams, 16 should be enough) and better intensity from day 1. there is another competition called Amlin cup where teams like Aironi or Connacht could develop and still play against other decent french / English teams.

now just to show you that people are getting interested in the HC even in France: 2.7 millions people watched the Leinster-ASM game. how much watched the other SF? I dont know and it wasnt even on national TV... this wasnt the case a fews years ago so the size of the cake being different, its natural for people to want a bigger slice.

whocares

You seem to define HC wrong in my view. It's the premier european tournament, not the premier western axis of european tournament. I believe there should be representation from other european unions.

habitually badgers

habitually does what to badgers?


Joking aside, you can bleat on as much as you want about 'bullying' but if the Anglo-French think they can get a better deal by going elswhere they will go.

Now I won't bore you with the potential viewing figures for England - as you all seem to know these figures by heart and use them to beat us over the head to show how poor we are compared to everybody else on these Islands, but the french+english telly audience is going to be several magnitudes larger than Ireland+Wales+Scotland+Italy (although Italy has tremendous potentail in years to come), so sentiment or 'fairness' will not come into it as the negotiations proceed.

And here's thanks to all those exiles who have left the 'celtic' lands to earn their money in England, you are unwitting fith columnists who will assist and aid the evil Fanco-Anglo alliance.

It all comes back to money and the T14 and PRL clubs fight is with the RFU and FFF as much as it is with the Rabo.

No club can do without the ERC money and I don't think that the majority of PRL clubs would vote for just a Eng v Fra Club cup

So the ERC will carry on a probably go up to 32 teams though like many I would rather see it reduced.

I also think that English club gets high attendances for Rabo teams then they would for French teams

HammerofThunor wrote:If the negotiations go like this I think we won't have a HEC in 2 years time.

I'd love to see a world club cup. I'm sure that SANZAR will drop their S15 for extra travel and the massive viewing population of Welsh, Scotland and Ireland.

So now you want some of that action? First we join HC and it's all rosey until the bankers start losing... then the bankers threaten to pull the funds unless the minnows roll over and play dead for a few years so that the bankers can win again. Then the minnows suggest the bankers take their money and shove it somewhere cosy, saying they might extend an already pan-national League further still. Then the bankers say Hey! We're talkin' here!"

So what really does happen when the Pro12 sides stop listening to the threats? It seems we'll still get a ring on the doorbell from our European neighbours asking us to come out to play

If this is the only argument the USA and China will take total control of just about everything soon enough so why are we even bothering!

I find it amazing as rugby fans that you bleat on about spending power, playing numbers, and bargaining chips etc when we are a smaller sport than others and the way football runs things is lightyears ahead of us. We are heading down the football route, and this is just another indicative example of England and France bringing the game into disrepute!

thebluesmancometh wrote:whocares

You seem to define HC wrong in my view. It's the premier european tournament, not the premier western axis of european tournament. I believe there should be representation from other european unions.

Which is why the amount of teams in the HC needs to go up to 32 in my opinion.

Would give room for the likes of Germany,Russia,Portugal,Georgia,Romania,Spain etc.

There needs to be a league for these teams.

I AM WITH YOU 100% BESHOCKED!!!

I know a friend who plays in Stuttgart, and another who plays in Romania and they are itching to get bigger clubs to tour there and give them high calibre games. The get to play amateur teams and struggle for any progression.

Maybe a 2nd tier Rabo league would incorporate a mainland european league, consisting of a Spanish, German, Scandanavian, Romanian, Russian representitive teams.

Maybe a 2nd tier Rabo league would incorporate a mainland european league, consisting of a Spanish, German, Scandanavian, Romanian, Russian representitive teams.

I think this was dealt with in the original post:

"A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

A third tier development competition would be a good idea especially if the winners of the B&I Cup as well as a couple of other teams at that level were also put in there to help generate interest.

Can some one clarify some things

1. Is it just the clubs saying this?
2. Have the RFU, FFF and WRU come out in support/negative to the proposals?
3. Will the clubs have a say i know PRL has 3 votes (half of RFU) but what about the welsh and French clubs?

I think we do gloss over that 2 welsh club support this

But thats just being proposed to try to negate the idea that the French and English want to cut off any team outside of the current axis, and then limit the abilities of the other teams within the axis!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:whocares

You seem to define HC wrong in my view. It's the premier european tournament, not the premier western axis of european tournament. I believe there should be representation from other european unions.

you mean teams from Roumania, Spain etc?
if they are good enough why not : just flog them into a preliminary round in september and the best could get some HC action while the rest will still make up numbers in the AC. I might sound arrogant but I did see one AC game between Stade Français and the mighty Bucharest Wolves and this was a bit pointless to remain polite...

good point brendan.

I also can't think of why the Dragons or Scarlets would want this so it has to be O's and Blues. But again they havn't supported all of this, just small parts.

I don't think the money exists to have a pan European tournament at the lower levels - infact I am certain of it.

The way France and then Italy became competitive was by their national side during the 4N/5N/6N. The improvement in club rugby followed the national side. I see no reason why it would be different for any other country.

This is why I suggest that Georgia joining the 6N is the next step. It has a fully profesional league and would benefit hugely from its top players playing in the 6N.

I dont think there is any way the clubs from Rumania, Georgia, Spain etc can become anywhere near good enough without the national side palying at 6N level on a regular basis.

whocares

Your right, it is rather pointless, but there is no way these teams will get stronger, grow interest, or become challenging without the introduction to the top table, or at least with a chance of being at the top table.

1 season in the HC would transform a club like Bucharest, the money and interest generated would really allow them start funding a more competitive team. If they were guarentee'd a regular HC spot they could build and invest securely. Then maybe added to a mainland europe league they would really become something worth considering. Local businessmen would want to invest etc..

Just like Aironi.

I must say I quite like the current system, but equally the new system being proposed has some merits.

Even as a Scottish rugby supporter I can see that the Rabo12 would benefit from more meaningful competition, and whilst I'd hate to see a HC without Scottish or Italian representation, frankly if the sides can't qualify then so be it. The key issue will be to ensure financial fair play in the Rabo12, so teams are not encouraged into short term spending just to make or stay in the HC. Look at the issues cause by the Premiership and Champions League in football, we need to make sure that doesn't happen in rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Maybe a 2nd tier Rabo league would incorporate a mainland european league, consisting of a Spanish, German, Scandanavian, Romanian, Russian representitive teams.

I think this was dealt with in the original post:

"A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

A third tier development competition would be a good idea especially if the winners of the B&I Cup as well as a couple of other teams at that level were also put in there to help generate interest.

I think the ERC should help push the development of rugby in Europe. I think theres already a league between Dutch, German and Belgian clubs (or regions).

Maybe top flight teams could send their A teams on tour. Expand the B+I cup for example.

Did the Os and Blues do sign up to some things or is it more a case of not happy with the WRU or using it as a bargin with the WRU

The B & I cup is a financial drain on clubs as it is.

There really are some cloud cuckoo ideas on here with respect to getting smaller teams involved. Many are effectively part time and run on a financial show string. To put them into a competiot that would require, say a Rumania team, to trave to Scotland, France, Portugal and Georgia would be financial ruinous

But thats just being proposed to try to negate the idea that the French and English want to cut off any team outside of the current axis, and then limit the abilities of the other teams within the axis!!

By bringing in a third tier competition to help develop rugby in smaller countries. You're talking rubbish. A stronger Amlin coupled with a more streamlined HEC and workable third tier competition with developing nations would actually be more marketable and increase the ability of the European tournaments to sell the tv rights and bring in more sponsorship. Just because this would come at a cost to the Rabo league in the short term where the English and French teams would like more say this must be a bad thing must it?

The ideas being put forward would raise the competition in the Rabo league as well which is something that is mainly lacking and a more worthwhile league might spark some life into the tiny attendances in Wales and Scotland. All in all it's not a bad template to start the negociations from.

profitus

That is a genius idea mate, the B and I cup is basically the nwere version of the anglo that really popped for a few seasons. It was ok this season and if turned into a euro style comp I think it would be fantastic.

4 teams from Eng, Ire, Fra, Wales, Scotland, and Italy (where applicable) and 14-16 teams from mainland europe.

Sadly in Wales I think this might outgrow the Rabo, as the chance to see your club play european opposition as opposed to the regions would really appeal!

Sam your wrong. The tiny attendances in Wales have nothing to do with the Rabo!!!

The Eng and Fra leagues want to negate the power of the teams in the Rabo, and therefore resort back to european domination for them. They want to make the HC even more inaccessable to the lower nations, how is that helping them???

The smaller nations need to profit from the top table as the big nations do if they are to improve, don't be so ignorant.

A French/English competition isn't much of a threat. For starters the winners cannot call themselves the best team in Europe. The prestige alone in calling yourself European champions would be lost.

Also you'd have more clashes of clubs from the same countries. The play each other often and see eah other on TV.

Clermont spanking Saracens wouldn't do much for viewing figures either. If they can do that to the English champions then there might not be the contest there that fans want.

In fact it would probably go the way of the LV Anglo Welsh cup.

Meanwhile Rabo teams would get less money but it wouldn't matter than much. They wouldn't need their squads to be as big so could offload lots of fringe players. You'd then have a situation where the top players play more Rabo game, making it an even stronger league.

So all in all I don't think the French and English will be able to get too much of their own way.

We have 44 teams competing in HC and Amlin Cup now. I'd boost that to 48 (inclusivism). With 12, 12 and 14 teams provided by the major leagues, there'd be 10 spots for developing league representatives.

I'd then have 3 competitions of 16 (so we get a proper elite European competition, a highly competitive second competition and a development third competition). All competitions would be 4 pools of 4 with the top 2 going through (no extra weekends needed in the calendar).

Who qualifies for the top competition?
8 quarter-finalists from last year's top competition
4 semi-finalists from last year's middle competition
1 winner from last year's development competition
3 major European League Champions (AP, T14, R12). If they have already qualified, then it goes to the best third placed finishers in the previous year's Heineken Cup (who would have otherwise been demoted to level 2).

Who qualifies for the middle competition?
8 (less up to 3) teams competing in the top competition last year (the 3 possibly getting shots at redemption if the domestic qualifiers have already qualified)
4 losing quarter-finalists from last years middle competition
3 Semi-finalists (not including the eventual winner) of the development competition
1-4 best third placed finishers in last year's middle competition

Who qualifies for the development competition? (basically everyone else)
12 teams who finished exited at the quarter-final stage or earlier in last year's competition
4 4th placed finishers in last year's middle competition
Less any of those that may have won their domestic league (and therefore jumped to the top competition)
Plus any 3rd placed finishers int he middle competition that cascade down because of this.

Basically:
Relegation: If you finish bottom of your pool, you go down
If you finish third in your pool, assume you are down (but you might be redeemed)
You can't be relegated below the bottom competition

Promotion: If you get to the semi-finals, you go up 1.
If you win a cup (any European level cup, or a major domestic league), you are in the top competition.

And all losing quarter-finalists will stay where they are.

If you imagine the middle five teams from each major league (as it would roughly turn out to be), you've got a very competitive middle tier competition there (much more so than the Amlin), with teams like: Gloucester, London Irish, Sale, Bath, Scarlets, Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh, Racing Metro, Stade Francais, Perpignan and Biarritz among others. That's a very strong compeition and, with 4 going up (and one of the only ways up) and up to 8 coming down it would have to be fiercely competitive.

The development competition would allow more teams from less rugby-developed countries a chance to show their worth and a natural progression when they start to get successful.

I think more still would need to be done for the developing countries (especially helping with their domestic leagues - possibly a European Development league with 10 in it that automatically qualify for the European Competition).

There's a slight issue with promotion/relegation from the AP/T14 and where does the new team go. I suppose it could either take the place of the team that would have otherwise competed, or you could drop them to the bottom of the pile. Minor technicality to sort out, but doesn't really impact on the idea as a whole in my opinion.

I also would offer very little seeding (maybe the winners of the HC, AP, T14 and R12 would get seeding in the top competition, but no other seeding) so teams can't trade on past glories to help maintain their status quo (for example, 8 teams always making the quarter-finals, always being top seeds and therefore always continuing to make the quarter-finals, etc).

The Eng and Fra leagues want to negate the power of the teams in the Rabo, and therefore resort back to european domination for them. They want to make the HC even more inaccessable to the lower nations, how is that helping them???

The smaller nations need to profit from the top table as the big nations do if they are to improve, don't be so ignorant.

I've already pointed out that the proposed changes will mean sweet fa to the big Irish Provinces which are currently dominating the HEC. The HEC is cycular and things may very well change in five years time. However, making the Amlin a more meaningful competition now by syphening off some of the weaker hangers on into it will be good for the smaller nation representatives that are already playing in there. The clubs would then help generate a stronger tournament which would attract more money throught tv rights and sponsorship making the Amlin a wealthy tournament. The third tier as pointed out above (if you bothered to read it) would be a good breading ground for the smaller nations who would then compete to step up into the Amlin (third tier winner goes into the Amlin in the same way the Amlin winner goes into the HEC). What's the point in shunting a third tier semi pro team straight into the HEC? Take a kicking and have your players get injured for successive weekends, mmm great, I bet those small clubs in Portugal will really look forward to Leinster sending over their youth team to hand out a hundred point thrashing.

IT WILL NO)T BE GOOD FOR SMALLER NATIONS THOUGH!!!

If you struggle in the HC you should be dropped to the lower level comp where monatery gains are much less, so you can't afford a huge squad to compete, which means you struggle in the league etc etc...

Opening up the top tier comp and sharing the wealth helps others, making it smaller and dropping smaller clubs out doesn't!!!