French and English threat to the HC

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In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

If you struggle in the HC you should be dropped to the lower level comp where monatery gains are much less, so you can't afford a huge squad to compete, which means you struggle in the league etc etc...

No, if you struggle in your league you are not an elite club and should not be in the elite european competition.

Opening up the top tier comp and sharing the wealth helps others, making it smaller and dropping smaller clubs out doesn't!!!

You can only open up the top tier so far though. You can't introduce Russian, Portugese or Romanian teams into the HEC. They barely survive in the Amlin. The Amlin needs topping up and promoting so that it is maximised as a revenue stream. A third tier leading to the Amlin brings the Russian etc teams interest into the third tier and the Amlin (eventually) and with the bigger market more money starts to flow. For the Amlin to generate that bigger audience there needs to be more competition and the Italian and other weaker teams along with the bottom half of the AP and French leagues will offer that.

That would make European competition a stepping stone third tier, Amlin, HEC. Something to aim for in terms of progression with bigger revenue streams across the competitions rather than all focussed on the HEC which is permanantley unobtainable to the Russian etc style teams anyway.

BTW, a Russian club gave Connachts A team a hammering earlier this year. Just saying....

profitius wrote:BTW, a Russian club gave Connachts A team a hammering earlier this year. Just saying....

Really? Who? That's great news if it's true, but I doubt it...

I believe it took France 15 years to win their first game when they entered the 5 nations. But it was worthwhile. Because eventually, through regular competition they caught up and even surpassed the teams that once spanked them. Sending them to play in a lower tier would not have had the same effect. It was competition with the top teams that did it, eventually.

I think ideally every nation should have the opportunity to have their domestic teams play the best of other nations. That's the whole point. The NFL is the model for European rugby to follow. There could be an English Conference, a French Conference and a Celtic/Italian Conference. The English and French could even keep their relegation/promotion with the next tier of their domestic game, and award their respective national trophies to conference winners before the playoffs. But EVERY year EVERY nation pits their best against the best of Europe. That's my ideal. This European Super Comp could even be played out in a fewer number of games than the current mish-mash of league/HC/Amlin/LV etc.

There could even be an eastern conference (Russia/Romania/Georgia) added in easily when ready. And perhaps a western conference (Spain/Portugal/Belgium?) in the future. But everybody is part of the one competition. No other priorities. One level playing field. All nations represented.

BoyneRFC wrote:

profitius wrote:BTW, a Russian club gave Connachts A team a hammering earlier this year. Just saying....

Really? Who? That's great news if it's true, but I doubt it...

It happened a few months ago. 33 - 3 or something like that. Munsters development team struggled to beat them too.

Feckless Rogue that's a really interesting idea. It probably would be a fantastic competition if it ever came about. However it would take a complete restructuring of all competitions across every country in Europe, and I doubt there is the appetite for that. It would be great though.

Sam, struggling in your own league does not mean you arent an elite club. It is possible to be 8th best team in your own league and still be 8th best team in Europe.

I like that idea too Feckless. Nice one.

kingjohn7 wrote:Sam, struggling in your own league does not mean you arent an elite club. It is possible to be 8th best team in your own league and still be 8th best team in Europe.

If you had to draw up a European ranking where would you put Edinburgh - 11th in the Pro12 - the self proclaimed greatest competition in the world and HC semi finalists?

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?name=Rcurrent

Personally I like this link.

The problem with Peter's Euro tables, beshocked is that they only go back thirty games.

I think that they are pretty good at reflecting current form, but not so good at forming an overall picture.

A sixty-game format would be a better indicator of overall rankings to determine seedings in Europe. The current official system places far too much emphasis on historic data.

Portnoy where do you disagree with the rankings?

I think that the rankings system deciding home ties is obscene. It should be a straight draw at the semi final stage with neutral grounds for semis and final. If they went to 20 teams in four groups of five, with the top two qualifying then the Quarters could be more transparent i.e. winner group 1 v runner up group 5 etc. The group winners would all be home in the quarters.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy where do you disagree with the rankings?

The official rankings go back too far (four years I think) on weighted data. Why should what a team achieved three of four years ago have any influence at all? Especially when those three/four years will be four/five next season when the games start. Ludicrous.

Portnoy I mean the unofficial ones.

I think it's fair to say the most consistent English sides recently have been Leicester,Saracens and Saints.

Most consistent Pro12 - Leinster,Munster and Ospreys.

Top 14 - Toulouse and Clermont.

Glas a du wrote:I think that the rankings system deciding home ties is obscene. It should be a straight draw at the semi final stage with neutral grounds for semis and final.

It is a straight draw for the Semi finals

Portnoy wrote:The problem with Peter's Euro tables, beshocked is that they only go back thirty games.

I think that they are pretty good at reflecting current form, but not so good at forming an overall picture.

A sixty-game format would be a better indicator of overall rankings to determine seedings in Europe. The current official system places far too much emphasis on historic data.

On the one hand your complaint is there is too much emphasis on historical data and then you say it should be sixty games not thirty

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote:The problem with Peter's Euro tables, beshocked is that they only go back thirty games.

I think that they are pretty good at reflecting current form, but not so good at forming an overall picture.

A sixty-game format would be a better indicator of overall rankings to determine seedings in Europe. The current official system places far too much emphasis on historic data.

On the one hand your complaint is there is too much emphasis on historical data and then you say it should be sixty games not thirty

Two years not four geoff.

I think domestic form should be included in the European rankings.

Next HC's season will see Edinburgh ranked above the likes of Saracens and Ospreys. Absolutely farcical.

Portnoy wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Portnoy wrote:The problem with Peter's Euro tables, beshocked is that they only go back thirty games.

I think that they are pretty good at reflecting current form, but not so good at forming an overall picture.

A sixty-game format would be a better indicator of overall rankings to determine seedings in Europe. The current official system places far too much emphasis on historic data.

On the one hand your complaint is there is too much emphasis on historical data and then you say it should be sixty games not thirty

Two years not four geoff.

Portnoy, agreed, and it makes quite a difference two years versus 4

geoff998rugby wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I think that the rankings system deciding home ties is obscene. It should be a straight draw at the semi final stage with neutral grounds for semis and final.

It is a straight draw for the Semi finals

Good!

It is a straight draw but it's not exactly "neutral" venues. If Leinster get a home semi they play in LR, if Toulouse get one they play in the Municipal Stadium in Toulouse, not their home ground but not far from it.

The problem with using league performances is that it would tend to be unfair towards a league that is significantly stronger than the others.

Not a problem at themoment but coudl be in the future.

Having said that I would be fine if only 2 years of the HC results counted