French and English threat to the HC

First topic message reminder :

In TheRugbyPaper, out Sunday 6 May, Peter Jackson has run an article stating that both Leagues intend to serve formal notice to the ERC in Dublin in the next few weeks, in order to quit when the current long term agreement expires in two years time.

Paraphrasing the article.....

"The french feel so strongly that they have appointed a high powered five man executive including three club presidents to finalise their plan of action."

"Premier Rugby Ltd an organisation which includes Bristol and Leeds in addition to the current top flight 12, have already voted unanimously to serve notice. "

"Instead of 24 teams, the joint Anglo-French proposal calls for a reduction to 20 and the imposition of a uniform qualifying system across the three major leagues. The 20 will be based as follows; Top six from the French, English and Celtic leagues. The two remaining places to go to the winners of the Heineken and Amblin Cups."

"Under the new Entente Cordiale, pool matches will be compressed into two blocks of three weeks in October and November. Five pool winners and three best runners up form the last eight, with the quarter finals played before the 6N, not after it, with the Final in mid-April."

"The current seeding system, calculated on a four year set of tournament results will be scrapped and replaced by a simpler method giving seeded status to the European winners and runners up plus the champions of the three domestic leagues."

"The secondary European competition currently sponsored by Amblin would be streamlined for the 20 clubs failing to qualify for the main event. A third tournament has been earmarked for eight to twelve clubs from emerging countries across continental europe, from Portugal to Romania"

So all the rumours look like coming to fruition - the economic powers and the commercial realities, which are part of professional sport are (sadly) flexing their muscles. The meritocracy of qualification is unarguable but then the other side of the coin with rights of all nations to take part looks like losing out.

Reaction by the Celtic league will be predictable but what action will they take? Would Wales revert back to their league ? Would Scotland/Ireland invest in theirs ? as without HC guaranteed income some financial models will become defunct. I have said in the past that the pressure on raising the salary cap in the English league would be unstoppable but it appears this has been put to one side and the other structural option is being proposed for the major money spinner that is european rugby.

Jackson is one of the better rugby journos and under the assumption that the above is accurate, calm rational thought is required....

I understand your logic Secret but you are basing it on the assumption that the HC is the premier competition, which as you said depends on the eye of the beholder. In France that is clearly not the case and my fellow season ticket holders are beginning to wonder.
Football in this country had a domestic league and a cup competition long before any european competition came along and I sometimes wonder if the RFU got it wrong and should have maintained a current version of the old Pilkington Cup, giving the lower leagues an opportunity to have a pop at the big clubs like the FA Cup and looked at european competition further down the track.

As far as being the best goes, winning a european competition is only one indicator - just ask Barcelona or Real Madrid....

If I were Ulster I'd pull out of the comp at the end of the season and take their trophy with them, hopefully the runners up Leinster would follow suit and the competition would be totally devalued without its two top sides.

The English and French can battle it out to see who are the best European also rans until their hearts are content.

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

I'm well aware of that but I don't think they should be allowed to hold the other unions to ransom because they are no longer winning the competition.

When they were losing to the French they didn't threaten to leave unless the French implemented a salary cap? Why? because they need the support of the French.

It's a cowardly and arrogant move by the English clubs who want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to be competitive on two fronts but simply don't have the quality or financial clout to do so.

Really!! So it's the Rabo team's who don't provide much of the finance and yet they get free entry. Surely that's having the cake and eating it too?

nathan wrote:

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

I'm well aware of that but I don't think they should be allowed to hold the other unions to ransom because they are no longer winning the competition.

When they were losing to the French they didn't threaten to leave unless the French implemented a salary cap? Why? because they need the support of the French.

It's a cowardly and arrogant move by the English clubs who want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to be competitive on two fronts but simply don't have the quality or financial clout to do so.

Really!! So it's the Rabo team's who don't provide much of the finance and yet they get free entry. Surely that's having the cake and eating it too?

Not quite sure what you mean there, nathan, NONE of the teams provide ANY finance. It is true that England and France have much larger TV audiences and populations in general which appeal to the sponsors tho

Rodders,

Please stop blaming just the English. This is a French motion supported by PRL.

As a proposal it is a mixture of common sense, fair play, arrogance and short sightedness. Qualities possessed by all sides in this debate be they Anglo/Celtic/Franco/Latin.

Nathan you talk as though rabbo teams offer nothing to the HC in terms of finance which is not the case as munster and leinster have some of the best attendences in the HC which means loads of money for avertising for both the HC and sky sports

LondonTiger wrote:Rodders,

Please stop blaming just the English. This is a French motion supported by PRL.

I'm not just blaming the English but I find it a bit rich that they didn't seem to mind losing to the French but when its the Rabo teams they want to take their ball and head home.

I recall the Tigers fans were certain that they would beat Ulster at Ravenhill, then when they got tonked all of a sudden the excuses came out as they did by the Saints after last seasons final.

Where were the excuses of tiredness by Saracens, and the AP defenders, after the QF hammering to Clermont?

If Clermont were in the final I suspect we wouldn't be having this debate.

nathan wrote:

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think the English teams are bringing much to the HEC right now in terms of quality and entertainment so I'd be happy enough to see them leave.

What they bring is the TV money and sponsorships etc. Without them the income for remaining sides is much reduced.

I'm well aware of that but I don't think they should be allowed to hold the other unions to ransom because they are no longer winning the competition.

When they were losing to the French they didn't threaten to leave unless the French implemented a salary cap? Why? because they need the support of the French.

It's a cowardly and arrogant move by the English clubs who want to have their cake and eat it too.

They want to be competitive on two fronts but simply don't have the quality or financial clout to do so.

Really!! So it's the Rabo team's who don't provide much of the finance and yet they get free entry. Surely that's having the cake and eating it too?

Money don't go where it thinks it won't make a profit. If finance is the issue, then the English and French clubs should just withdraw it? Wouldn't really work of course because finance is a complicated entity and by withdrawing it you also kill the ability to generate it.

What all rugby sides Really want to do is win. It's simple. Winning as much as you can and are entered into. Winning is not just happy fans (that's the extra garnish that clubs don't need) what winning really is is more fans spending money (spending rather than smiling).
So to use Rec's analogy about Barcelona. Well yes, best is in the eye of the beholder - and certainly I got very bored watching the impotent passing show put on by Barcelona against Chelsea (so yes, it really is in the eye of the beholder) but even so, one year down in Europe ain't all so bad for Barcelona...but try suggesting such a blase attitude if they drop off the pace over the next two or three years. That's money, that's sponsorship drifting elsewhere, that is reputation wilting and that is fans spending less not more.

Maybe the french and English would agree to every third year just being them competing in it?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe the french and English would agree to every third year just being them competing in it?

Why would they want that sure then its not a european competition

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe the french and English would agree to every third year just being them competing in it?

Why would they want that sure then its not a european competition

Bluesman is being bluesman ironic there Leinster

But one of them is guarentee'd to win something.

Isn't that the purpose of this?1

Recwatcher wrote:Maesteg, I was about to say the same, plenty of sensible comment and little or no wums so far....
I do think that some of the proposals would be an improvement, the seeding and the two blocks of pool games. I also think that the Amblin should get a far higher profile. European rugby will only improve and expand from the bottom up, despite the R12 consolidation of players.

The difference between the Celts, (particularly us Welsh) and the French and English was alluded to in a point I think you made earlier though I cant find it to quote.

That Bath RFC were weakened when they played Leinster, you said something about there "even being three academy players on the bench".

The Welsh Regions and Irish and Scots Provinces are regularly and proudly picking academy players and doing well with them, where as the French and English clubs are constantly vying for expensive foreign players raising the expense of their club rugby.

Wales, Scotland and to a degree Italy and Ireland do not agree that the same model is an effective, affordable and intelligent sustainable existence.

France and England's top clubs want to turn club rugby into an arms race, one could say that this is unfair on the rest of Europe, apart from the fact that it is not making any better product than the celtic league that differs in principle by choosing to invest in the cheaper model of utilising strong academies.

Englands top clubs want to be allowed to raise their budget to something more comparable to the French Clubs, more money won't make the English, French or any of the rest of us catch up with the Irish. Reinvention and encouragement of academies to develop talent.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Isn't that the purpose of this?1

Ye i suppose you have a point

Well in fairness because of the french model we all need to raise our budgets to not sign players but keep those academy players.

Leinster are strong because they have the financial clout and incentives to keep their top players. Any welsh 'region' would be a different beast had they not lost players to financially better off clubs.

The Dragons - Fussel, Gough, Bearman, Brew, Charteris, Tovey etc...

maestegmafia wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:Maesteg, I was about to say the same, plenty of sensible comment and little or no wums so far....
I do think that some of the proposals would be an improvement, the seeding and the two blocks of pool games. I also think that the Amblin should get a far higher profile. European rugby will only improve and expand from the bottom up, despite the R12 consolidation of players.

The difference between the Celts, (particularly us Welsh) and the French and English was alluded to in a point I think you made earlier though I cant find it to quote.

That Bath RFC were weakened when they played Leinster, you said something about there "even being three academy players on the bench".

The Welsh Regions and Irish and Scots Provinces are regularly and proudly picking academy players and doing well with them, where as the French and English clubs are constantly vying for expensive foreign players raising the expense of their club rugby.

Wales, Scotland and to a degree Italy and Ireland do not agree that the same model is an effective, affordable and intelligent sustainable existence.

France and England's top clubs want to turn club rugby into an arms race, one could say that this is unfair on the rest of Europe, apart from the fact that it is not making any better product than the celtic league that differs in principle by choosing to invest in the cheaper model of utilising strong academies.

Englands top clubs want to be allowed to raise their budget to something more comparable to the French Clubs, more money won't make the English, French or any of the rest of us catch up with the Irish. Reinvention and encouragement of academies to develop talent.

But the only reason for them doing that is because all team's do it. If the opposition is weaker you can safely field a weaker team. That attitude has been born out of a lack of relegation. The Aviva does have relegation so the team's have to fight for win's so each team will try and put there best out.

Is this not an over-reaction by the english clubs i mean its a year ago that the saints nearly won the HC. The english teams have just had a bad year for whatever reason

Nathan so your saying quins , saints etc have to fight for relegation in the AP? Dont think so bud

nathan, I'd agree that relegation or the prospect of relegation enourages the bottom few teams to play their best players at all time, but for most of the clubs in the bottom half that does not apply - instead it is the AP playoffs that keep those top teams playing their best players (and the Rabo has playoffs too)

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Nathan so your saying quins , saints etc have to fight for relegation in the AP? Dont think so bud

Well no, the team's up the top have to fight for a HC place. Either end of the table to have to fight for something. Compare that to the Rabo?

nathan

Thats kind of the point. Youve chosen that system, stop whinging when it is proved flawed!!!

You now know you need to design a league where you can field younger players.

PS

Who's getting relegated this year? Isn't semi relegation more appropriate for the prem?!

thebluesmancometh wrote:nathan

Thats kind of the point. Youve chosen that system, stop whinging when it is proved flawed!!!

You now know you need to design a league where you can field younger players.

PS

Who's getting relegated this year? Isn't semi relegation more appropriate for the prem?!

I'm not whinging at all, just debating which seem's a little hard for some of you guys. (well to do it without insulting)

The Irish don't need to be caught up on. Too much drama in this debate (amongst the clubs and leagues themselves) is possibly the reason why the dramatic solutions are inevitably coming forward.

Irish provinces have certainly learned how to compete in Europe, and yes, that requires policies and a stringent attention to detail in player development, protection etc. Irish provinces have to think harder about League and HC because they simply don't have the resources in human terms or financial terms that the bigger Leagues do. They are controlled in the number of foreigners they can have on their books and have much smaller pools of coming-through Irish players.

So they've learned to compete yes - but nope, they haven't learned to be dominant, nor have they drifted wildly away from the quality of rugby offered up by English or French clubs. They simply are more intense about yearly management, simply because in order to compete they felt they needed to.

They might differ from other Pro12 sides simply too because they are controlled by different structures; Pro12 is a four nation league. So Irish Provinces have being distinguishing themselves in Europe because Europe is a goal, because they have their own unique ways of trying to sustain competitivity with the big English and French clubs and because their developments are not league based but nation based.

Welsh and Scottish clubs remain competitive with Irish provinces within the Pro12 and will learn too how to manage both (League and Pro12) using their own unique systems in their own nations.

Meanwhile, the English and French are only centimetres off regaining the ascendancy at European level. A few little tighening up of systems and methods and they can be back winning as early as next year.

It really isn't rocket science - and it doesn't really need panic from the aspirant rule changers.

Nathan so how does relegation affect the english teams doing bad in the HC?

Well said secretfly

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Nathan so how does relegation affect the english teams doing bad in the HC?

Have you not read what i put?

I'm saying that in the Aviva there's more things to fight for meaning we rarely (if ever) see a weakened team. In the Rabo you see weakened team's all the time.

I should also point out that i haven't given any excuses for the the English team's doing bad in the HC, i was replying to Mast regarding his post about the Welsh team's fielding academy players.

Does that explain what i was getting at?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Is this not an over-reaction by the english clubs i mean its a year ago that the saints nearly won the HC. The english teams have just had a bad year for whatever reason

the French clubs first tabled proposals for change two years ago.

The current proposals they are making are nothing to do with making the tournament fair (though that is the reason they are using) it is all about money and power. They feel they deserve some say in the decision making (currently they get none) and more than 1/6th of the income.

PRL are junior partners in this coalition - but liek the SDLP seem to be getting all the blame for French/conservative activities.

nathan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Nathan so how does relegation affect the english teams doing bad in the HC?

Have you not read what i put?

I'm saying that in the Aviva there's more things to fight for meaning we rarely (if ever) see a weakened team. In the Rabo you see weakened team's all the time.

I should also point out that i haven't given any excuses for the the English team's doing bad in the HC, i was replying to Mast regarding his post about the Welsh team's fielding academy players.

Does that explain what i was getting at?

If English clubs HAVE to fight for HC spots every year - and yes, they do - then perhaps instead of the boss of the English Premiership looking for changes in an outside League, maybe he and the organisation should just reward effort more? And that is in his hands. He and his executives can control that one. Honour the Fight more - do it justice and give rewards and honour to the sides that fight well for HC position (both for it AND in it).

So intead of all clubs having to fight every year for their HC spots, performance IN the HC should be rewarded. Reaching the QFs should perhaps justify having your HC place guaranteed for the following year.

Guaranteed HC placement would mean more relaxation, more time to try out the lesser players in certain games, the ability to develop a rotational policy and to give leeway to sides so that they can build trust in their lesser players.

The solutions to the APs problems are at the doorstep of the contollers of the AP Premiership itself - IF they actually got creative and really thought through their selection policies.

Fly

You couldn't be more wrong! lowly little leinster aren't just good at managing their player base. They are a huge monster of a club who have massive resources when compared to most other Rabo teams! They have incentives unique to them, such as tax breaks, and a feeder club who specifically trains and plays players for the development of the big 2.

In reality Leinster are the financial force in the Rabo along with Munster. the Leinster region is basically a country of it's own, it has it's own financial bubble.

So no, Leinster are not just a cm from the rest, they are the Toulon of the Rabo (well thats a bit far fetched but you know what I mean)

Ther will always be issues when you have club representatives competing with elite regional teams.


any way I understandf that Ospreys and Blues are the two Welsh regions backing the plan. In a later articl by Peter Jackson in the Rugby paper he mentions that Ospreys have had to cut their playing budget by over £1.5m to achieve the new £3.2m cap. So they were spending over £4.7m on salarys even after Byrne, hook, Phillips left!

Tiger

Thats about right, similar to the AP, but in their little world they were paying certain players huge amounts, Jones, James, Bennet, Gough, Jones, Bearman, Collins etc were earning absolute fortunes!!!

The Ospreys were overpaying as opposed to paying a huge squad. As were the Blues.

Is it me or are the English and French unions acting a bit like spoilt rich kids. They can't compete because they are too bloated from the poor diet they receive in their private schools (hype, sugar daddies and sour grapes methinks). If they are not winning all the time they change the rules (which lets remember they helped to write) in order to handicap the fat ugly kid (see the plucky Scots or Connacht) who just manages to beat them in a one off game every now and then. Rather than beating the fat ugly kids, surely they should be encouraged that the system they built worked! A bit of magnanimity from the English and French would be nice for once. As Journey once put it ...the wheel in the sky keeps on turning........

The people who'll decide are Sky tv. Remember Ireland couldn't have free to air tv last year. It was sky who stopped that.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

You couldn't be more wrong! lowly little leinster aren't just good at managing their player base. They are a huge monster of a club who have massive resources when compared to most other Rabo teams! They have incentives unique to them, such as tax breaks, and a feeder club who specifically trains and plays players for the development of the big 2.

In reality Leinster are the financial force in the Rabo along with Munster. the Leinster region is basically a country of it's own, it has it's own financial bubble.

So no, Leinster are not just a cm from the rest, they are the Toulon of the Rabo (well thats a bit far fetched but you know what I mean)

Why? After they won the HC a few times or before? My earlier posts hint at where money might come from when you actually start the business of winning.

No - Leinster is not a bottomless pit of exceptional players and pots full of cash - they have budgets, they have limits on where they can spend the funds (number of Foreigners) - they are sometimes crippled by the International cotton wool policy and nope, they can not sustain a pace with big French or English clubs ................. Unless............... they continue to keep winning or being nearly there. Two or three seasons of not-there and it all begins to unravel much quicker than French or English clubs would unravel.

Case in point Munster - they need to find a few more successful seasons coming or the wheel will come off what they have developed already, by first winning and then amassing.

It's true.... I heard Brad Thorn is working as a Barista at Starbucks to make ends meet.

The English and French club based system is totally incompatible with the Rabo regionalised League.

England and France have problems accessing their players during International windows and are constantly at odds with their Unions over players appearance throughout the season. The Irish have the perfect system for the Heineken Cup and well done them. We can whinge and whine but we missed the boat and let the clubs finance themselves whilst raping them for their players avoiding central contracts for Internationals. Our league system coupled with the salary cap makes fighting on two fronts very difficult.

We can throw insults at each other all day and accuse the English and French of sour grapes but this incompatibility of systems isn't going to go away but if the Americans can have a "World series" of just American Baseball teams I'm sure the French and English can do the same.

Btw, I don't like the thought of a split but I also don't have a solution.

tigerleghorn wrote:The English and French club based system is totally incompatible with the Rabo regionalised League.

England and France have problems accessing their players during International windows and are constantly at odds with their Unions over players appearance throughout the season. The Irish have the perfect system for the Heineken Cup and well done them. We can whinge and whine but we missed the boat and let the clubs finance themselves whilst raping them for their players avoiding central contracts for Internationals. Our league system coupled with the salary cap makes fighting on two fronts very difficult.

We can throw insults at each other all day and accuse the English and French of sour grapes but this incompatibility of systems isn't going to go away but if the Americans can have a "World series" of just American Baseball teams I'm sure the French and English can do the same.

Btw, I don't like the thought of a split but I also don't have a solution.

Unfortunately I agree with all of that but what I don't agree with is the proposed solution...that the Rabo teams should be penalised with less placess because the Irish teams in particular have had unforseen success in Europe over the past decade, whereas the English teams have declined mainly due to financial reasons.

Leinster struggle the least when there internationals are called away.

They have the option of poaching the feeder clubs players when they need cover.

This season Cronin, and Straus play hook. Perfect example!

Thorn, Nacewa, Van der merve, White, Straus, aren't cheap, but they are clever signings.

Then there are the 3/4 Connacht boys given to them. Thats over half a team they buy in, none of these players leave come int time!

Then there are the huge earnings of Healy, Cullen, SOB, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Darcy, BOD, Kearney, Fitzgerald.

Thats a full international 15 your paying, name me another Rabo club that can pay a full international team?!

But the beauty of central contracts is that Leinster don't pay the full whack for their Irish international necessarily

But the players are there, and representing the team. Just another perk for the Irish 2 to be succesfull.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:But the beauty of central contracts is that Leinster don't pay the full whack for their Irish international necessarily

Yes but they don't get the full benefit of them either hence they couldn't play them week in week out in the Rabo even if they wanted to.

The Irish sides have their own challenges, such as their NIQ quotas which makes their success all the more impressive.

When the new rules regarding NIQs kick in then the Irish sides will have an even bigger challenge to compete anyway.

rodders you make me laugh!

So because they don't pay them and rarely use them in the Rabo the Irish sides are at a disadvatage? What about all the other teams who have to pay theres and not get to use them?! Is this a help or hinderance to them!

The Irish regions will dominate for the foreseeable as they enjoy the most benefits from all facets of the game, keeping their budgets down with central contracts, tax breaks for irish nationals and a feeder club to help with player development!

rodders wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:But the beauty of central contracts is that Leinster don't pay the full whack for their Irish international necessarily

Yes but they don't get the full benefit of them either hence they couldn't play them week in week out in the Rabo even if they wanted to.

The Irish sides have their own challenges, such as their NIQ quotas which makes their success all the more impressive.

When the new rules regarding NIQs kick in then the Irish sides will have an even bigger challenge to compete anyway.

This is where people trying to make the point about Pro12 being based on league qualification and Pro12 sides not putting out their strongest teams just fail to appreciate the difference between the Pro12 and the English and French leagues; they just don't get it. Leinster couldn't pick their internationals every week even if they wanted to. It's simply not their choice. The Pro12 doesn't reflect how good a team is in Europe because when it comes to the Heineken Cup they'll be able to select players that aren't available during the league season.

I think demanding the criteria for qualification be standardised across the leagues is madness, because the Pro12 is so different from the English and French system.

Quote Rodders: "Yes but they don't get the full benefit of them either hence they couldn't play them week in week out in the Rabo even if they wanted to."

But then again they don't need to do they? lose a game or two isn't going to mean relegation or failing to qualify for next years Heino right?
Leinster as a Province and not a club are at the top of the pyramid for calling on junior club players at the drop of a hat for Rabo purposes.

Just an observation, not saying it's right or wrong.

No they don't, it's connachts job to fill the non HC spot!

At the end of the day the English and French clubs bring most of the money to the table, and then feel they aren't competing on a level playing field. Change was always going to come.

If the English and French sides leave then it will range from financially harmful to financially devastating for the Pro 12 sides. An exodus of players towards the AP and Top 14 would follow. Hopefully common sense will prevail before this happens, but change is inevitable, and this change will result in a more competitive Pro 12 (which may actually help some Pro 12 sides attract more paying customers) that will tilt the playing field somewhat away from the Irish provinces and towards the French and English clubs.

My point is that the Irish provinces have no choice but to rotate their sides throughout the season but that hasn't prevented them dominating the Rabo as well as be successful in the HEC.

Irish nationals don't get tax breaks, they get a percentage rebate based on the tax they've paid when they retire if they stay in Ireland.

Ulster pay the same taxes as the English clubs and are in the HEC final.

Who's this feeder club?

What size of a squad do Tigers have compared to Leinster?

I know how it compares to Ulster in any case.

The French teams have huge squads too have they not so why don't they use them?

This isn't about how much money a particular team/region/province have or the French would be knocking us all out of sight.

The Irish system of player management is about protecting players as well as protecting the National team. That has to be a good thing surely?

And, do the English clubs not receive any compensation for the players that are used by the National side?

tigerleghorn wrote:Leinster as a Province and not a club are at the top of the pyramid for calling on junior club players at the drop of a hat for Rabo purposes.

Leinster, as with the other provinces, main job is to provide players for Ireland. They are owned and funded by the IRFU and have to balance their own success with fulfilling their obligations to the National side.

Regardless of whether there was relegation or not the Irish provinces have to do what the IRFU tell them, that includes resting Irish players, team selection including occaisionally picking players in certain positions and the IRFU have the final say over the signing of players.

The IRFU don't fund the provinces for the the provinces benefit but for the National sides.