What should the new European competions look like

First topic message reminder :

HC it will either go up or down in number.

I would prefer to see it drop to 16 then increase to 32.

16 teams would be 4 groups of four
4 French
4 English
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
HC winners and Amlin winners
Each country can only get one more team.

Money would be broken up into two parts (as a peace offering for the French and English clubs)
75% of the TV and prize money would be given out as is. The rest would be according to how the Club/Region does.

Only the top 2 from each group would qualify for the quarters

The best three 3rds would drop down to the Amlin

Amlin would be 20 teams as follows

6 French
6 English
1 Welsh
1 Irish
2 Next Rabo teams
Semi Finalist of the Development League regardless of country

Money done 75/25

Top plus drop down from HC in Quarters

Development League
Only countries that can show real development plans are allowed in.
So the Spain & Portugal league is development.
Russia has a professional league so it would be ok
Georgia and Romania would have to show development maybe in a black sea league or something.
If countries don't put the plans in place they can't enter.
Only Rabo countries with a real plan to add another team can add a team e.g. Italy.
Scotland and Wales would have to show that they will be doing it and can add that extra team so like North Wales.

6 French
6 English
2 Rabo
4 Italians as they will be adding more teams and going it alone or the Rabo Div. 2 but they would need to have real plans
2 Russian
2 Georgian
2 Romanian
2 Spain
2 Portugal
4 others (if none found would go to England and France)

8 groups of 4 winners through to quarter

This I think would work well for the following reasons

1. France and England would be rewarded for having a better and larger professional base (I am Irish)
2. The HC would be much more of a Super 15 standard and so would make the NH stronger
3. Italy and Scotland have a place at the top table and can continue to grow
4. Only countries with real plans to grow rugby on a sustainable level will be rewarded and not countries that show no plans to move into the professional era
5. Clubs will get rewarded for their effort
6. All leagues will have things to play for and there will be and extra incentive to finishing at the top of the Eng. /Fra div 2
7. Scotland, Italy and Wales might actual put plans in place to add their extra team.
8. Weaker countries can progress naturally and not finish dead last as at present

All competitions would be sold as one package in each country, which the TV Company can sell on as they wish.
Breakdown would be
France & England 4+6+6=16 (most likely another 2 due to moving up places in development)
Ireland 2+1+1=4 does not plan to add teams
Wales 2+1+1+1=5 will be adding North/Valley team
Scotland 1+1+1=3
Italy 1+1+4=6 five of these will most likely be in the bottom tier

Brendan wrote:I think that if the PRL and T14 clubs pullout atleast the fff will enter thier Div 2 teams.

Could anything be done about that, as it is the union that picks them.

The winner of the LV gets an english spot in english so Wasps could have won it and got the sixth spot.

If the Eng & Fra leave the Rabo has to go after other countries. It can't have a Rabo cup cause no one would watch it.

I would love to see the SAFAs come to Europe as they would bring so much and raise the standards aswell

The current agreement would be over so they could do what they want. The RFU and FFF could both put in lower tier sides if they agreed (and were wanted). The only way I can see it ending completely would be if the clubs get sponsorship and TV deals worth more than the new ERC deal.

There is a lot of money going into Georgian rugby apparantly.
I think most of the teams are owned by 'businessmen' with income from various activities.

I really think we need to get the Russians and Georgians into European competions as once that happens even more money will be put in by the money men

About the closest I can find is this

http://site.rugby.ge/portal/alias__Georgian-Rugby-Union/lang__en/tabid__2997/default.aspx

From the Georgian union website. There are 8 teams in the top league in Georgia

Aia, Academy, Armazi, Batumi, Wissol Kochebi, Lelo, Locomotive and Kharebi
Just below this list is the word "Amateurs" followed by the teams Wissol Kochebi, Lelo and Locomotive.

If you clink on the names they're links to documents of players (in Georgia but it looks like DOB, height, weight, etc). The links for the two "Lelo" 'sides' (one coming under amateur) have different players. Therefore I'd have to assume the 8 top teams are professional.

That was my guess also when I went on the site but I wasn't sure.
It does appear they are making a point of distinquishing the amateur sides, which implies the other sides are professional

But could it be possible that the three amateur clubs are top

Brendan, if you click on the names their a link to a document containing a lot of Georgian writing. However there are also ages, weights and heights. If you compare the two lists generated by the two Lelo links you get two different lists. That suggests to me they're two different squads of players. The assumption would be that the one listed by "amateur" is the non-professional players at the club.

Are there any Georgian posters on here? That would clarify it.

Brendan wrote:But could it be possible that the three amateur clubs are top

I did think that, but Lelo are based in Tblisi and how likely is it that the capital team isn't professional when 5 other are?

I think it means they have Amateur set ups as well.

As I say I have been told the league is fully professional

I know the Russians have a professional league. And I know the Georgians are better than the Russians at rugby. Which would seem unlikely to me if they didn't have pro teams too.

If the georgian teams got Amlin viewing more players may stay in Georgria and not Div 2

Feckless Rogue wrote:I know the Russians have a professional league. And I know the Georgians are better than the Russians at rugby. Which would seem unlikely to me if they didn't have pro teams too.

I've got a feeling that all the Georgian international players (and I do mean all) play in France. So the it would be similar to the Argentinos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_national_rugby_union_team

It is Wikipedia, but most play in France, 1 in Scotland, 1 in England and then a handful in Georgia.

The great advantage that the SH countries have in my opinion is that their best players play so many matches at a high level. In the H cup even if a side manages to get into it they're only going to have 6 matches against top sides. If they reach the final it's 9. But compare this to Super rugby.

European unions and clubs need to think about what's best for European rugby. The Italians and Scots will probably be the ones to lose out if the rabo just lets the top 6 qualify for the H cup. This will weaken the popularity and standard of rugby in these countries which will as well weaken their national sides over time. Which will weaken the 6 nations, which will effect national sides across Europe.

The Irish and Welsh will very probably have the same representation and the Irish teams will still be forced by the IRFU to rest players so nothing will really change. Except for weakening rugby in two countries of course instead of taking measures to spread it there. If Irish teams still reach the top 6 of the rabo while regularly fielding a lot of young lads, as English and French will still be screaming about unfair league differences.

For me the answer is for the French and English to change their leagues. Their players sound overworked. There should be a limit on how many rugby matches a player plays in per year from a health point of view. This limit should be fixed across Europe. It would also force clubs to try out young players when otherwise they may never get a shot.

Relegation could be every second year also.

By all means change the competition but do so in a way that increases the number of matches and keeps the Italian and Scottish rugby alive.

i think your over rating the Georians guys.

They sent their national team over to Wales a while ago to face an amateur / semi pro Welsh Premiership XV and we nearly won. they only included their best domestic based players, and aside from a good front 5 they offered little.

I think Spain will be the next country to step up because they have internal infrastructure, unlike Georgia who simply sent all their players to France.

AlynDavies wrote:i think your over rating the Georians guys.

They sent their national team over to Wales a while ago to face an amateur / semi pro Welsh Premiership XV and we nearly won. they only included their best domestic based players, and aside from a good front 5 they offered little.

I think Spain will be the next country to step up because they have internal infrastructure, unlike Georgia who simply sent all their players to France.

But their domestic League still beat the welsh Prem which has to say that they are not far off of making the breakthrough against weaker Euro Club teams.
I also think more might come back from Div 2 if they though it would help their chance at a big contract with a t14/Aviva/Rabo team.

The Goergians have a fully professional infrastructure the Spanish dont
The Georgians have quality players playing abroad the Spanish dont
The Georgians are a lot of places higher than Spain in the World rankings

But you think Spain are a better prospect

geoff998rugby wrote:The Goergians have a fully professional infrastructure the Spanish dont
The Georgians have quality players playing abroad the Spanish dont
The Georgians are a lot of places higher than Spain in the World rankings

But you think Spain are a better prospect

I have to agree with you Geoff. Add in a november trip to Georgia and it would be hard for alot of teams and you know with them that they will play pick and drive all day. Not great if you're a back. Really hope they come into the Amlin

Also the Georgia side would have been a scratch side of guys from different clubs against a team that plays together all year round. Makes a big difference.