What should the new European competions look like

First topic message reminder :

HC it will either go up or down in number.

I would prefer to see it drop to 16 then increase to 32.

16 teams would be 4 groups of four
4 French
4 English
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
HC winners and Amlin winners
Each country can only get one more team.

Money would be broken up into two parts (as a peace offering for the French and English clubs)
75% of the TV and prize money would be given out as is. The rest would be according to how the Club/Region does.

Only the top 2 from each group would qualify for the quarters

The best three 3rds would drop down to the Amlin

Amlin would be 20 teams as follows

6 French
6 English
1 Welsh
1 Irish
2 Next Rabo teams
Semi Finalist of the Development League regardless of country

Money done 75/25

Top plus drop down from HC in Quarters

Development League
Only countries that can show real development plans are allowed in.
So the Spain & Portugal league is development.
Russia has a professional league so it would be ok
Georgia and Romania would have to show development maybe in a black sea league or something.
If countries don't put the plans in place they can't enter.
Only Rabo countries with a real plan to add another team can add a team e.g. Italy.
Scotland and Wales would have to show that they will be doing it and can add that extra team so like North Wales.

6 French
6 English
2 Rabo
4 Italians as they will be adding more teams and going it alone or the Rabo Div. 2 but they would need to have real plans
2 Russian
2 Georgian
2 Romanian
2 Spain
2 Portugal
4 others (if none found would go to England and France)

8 groups of 4 winners through to quarter

This I think would work well for the following reasons

1. France and England would be rewarded for having a better and larger professional base (I am Irish)
2. The HC would be much more of a Super 15 standard and so would make the NH stronger
3. Italy and Scotland have a place at the top table and can continue to grow
4. Only countries with real plans to grow rugby on a sustainable level will be rewarded and not countries that show no plans to move into the professional era
5. Clubs will get rewarded for their effort
6. All leagues will have things to play for and there will be and extra incentive to finishing at the top of the Eng. /Fra div 2
7. Scotland, Italy and Wales might actual put plans in place to add their extra team.
8. Weaker countries can progress naturally and not finish dead last as at present

All competitions would be sold as one package in each country, which the TV Company can sell on as they wish.
Breakdown would be
France & England 4+6+6=16 (most likely another 2 due to moving up places in development)
Ireland 2+1+1=4 does not plan to add teams
Wales 2+1+1+1=5 will be adding North/Valley team
Scotland 1+1+1=3
Italy 1+1+4=6 five of these will most likely be in the bottom tier

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Smirnoffpriest - in order for the Welsh to be down to 1 team they would have have 3 of the bottom 5 in the Pro12.
Pretty unlikely.

Also I am suggesting a 16 team competion not a 24 team one so reductions all round.
Wales want to improve their lot - out do the Irish.

The Pro 12 would still be the best represented league 7 teams as opposed to 4 or 5 for the French and English.
Making the HC more exclusive would make the Amlin more relevant and what I propose would address the complaint that Pro12 teams have nothing to play for

But in your post you said you'd only have 1 Welsh team, 2 Irish, and 1 Scottish team in the HEC?

I also said the next 3 places in the Pro12 would be HC places so that would mean the Pro 12 getting 7 of the 16 HC slots.

The 4 nations involved have to be guarentee'd what they have now...

Why?

Though I have spotted a slight flaw in the plan. After the first season the runners up spot in the Amlin to be replaced by the previous champions. That way a win in the third tier would guarentee two gos at the Amlin. These things are reviewed every 5 years so if a team or country showed up particularly well things could be restructured around them.

Well firstly it's a european tournament, 2ndly all unions own a % share!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:In reality geoff the Rabo teams are not competing against each other for HC places, why should they?

All unions have the right to be represented, and the Rabo is not a domestic league. It cannot be an entitiy such as the EPL or FFF, it owns more than 3 times more of the HC!

The fact it is not a domestic league is something I have said myself.
That is why I guarantee it 7 out of 16 slots whereas the French and English only get 4 or 5 each.
This recognises the Pro12's pan nantional character.

Having said that I do not accept that competition for places should be, largely, irrelevant - 7 out of 12 would introducing a level of competion whilst the reserved places would ensure 3 and possibly 4 of the Pro 12 nations are represented in the HC. I do believe a compromise is necessary and this strikes me as reasonable.

No league or union 'owns' any percentage of the Heineken Cup. No league or union has the right to demand that they get exactly what they want. No league or union should be excluded. Every nation involved needs to make concessions for the betterment of the competition.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Smirnoffpriest - in order for the Welsh to be down to 1 team they would have have 3 of the bottom 5 in the Pro12.
Pretty unlikely.

Also I am suggesting a 16 team competion not a 24 team one so reductions all round.
Wales want to improve their lot - out do the Irish.

The Pro 12 would still be the best represented league 7 teams as opposed to 4 or 5 for the French and English.
Making the HC more exclusive would make the Amlin more relevant and what I propose would address the complaint that Pro12 teams have nothing to play for

But in your post you said you'd only have 1 Welsh team, 2 Irish, and 1 Scottish team in the HEC?

I also said the next 3 places in the Pro12 would be HC places so that would mean the Pro 12 getting 7 of the 16 HC slots.

Fair enough - though does that mean in effect it would be the Top 3 teams after the Best Scottish, Best Welsh, and 2 best Irish?

There's another bomb I'm about to throw into the discussion though in that if the Welsh/Irish/Scottish/Italians hadn't followed the franchise/region route they would still have full league structures in much the same way as the English/French - wouldn't they then still be entitled to 3 or 4 HEC spots (or even up to 6) the same as the ERFU/FRU?
The Welsh/Irish/Scottish/Italians reduced the number of teams to improve quality.

You could argue that only the 5 teams who regularly get HEC qualification in the AV are of sufficent quality to compete and as such you could argue that the AV only needs these spots - You could say that the WRU/IRU/SRFU/IRFU reduced teams to a point where the majority (well 75%) deserve European participation and they just cut the rest.

jeffwinger wrote:No league or union 'owns' any percentage of the Heineken Cup. No league or union has the right to demand that they get exactly what they want. No league or union should be excluded. Every nation involved needs to make concessions for the betterment of the competition.

They do actually, all Unions pay in to the HEC and sign up to a participation agreement agreed by all the unions involved - they are then given HEC spots to hand out to whichever of their member teams they wish to.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

jeffwinger wrote:No league or union 'owns' any percentage of the Heineken Cup. No league or union has the right to demand that they get exactly what they want. No league or union should be excluded. Every nation involved needs to make concessions for the betterment of the competition.

They do actually, all Unions pay in to the HEC and sign up to a participation agreement agreed by all the unions involved - they are then given HEC spots to hand out to whichever of their member teams they wish to.

Yep. And the current participation agreement expires in a year or so - hence the initial jockeying for position over the next agreement.

Yes but we are discussing a new agreement. That is the old one. These are all idea for improving the competition and would have to be negotiated and agreed upon in the same fashion as the old one was. When I say no one 'owns' the HC what I mean to say is no one owns the idea of European competition and can dictate its terms for all eternity.

jeffwinger wrote:Yes but we are discussing a new agreement. That is the old one. These are all idea for improving the competition and would have to be negotiated and agreed upon in the same fashion as the old one was. When I say no one 'owns' the HC what I mean to say is no one owns the idea of European competition and can dictate its terms for all eternity.

I thought all Unions owned a share of European Club Rugby (or whatever it's called) the umbrella organisation that owns the HEC/all the rights

Personally I just want to see the outcome make the best rugby viewing. I can see a good reason in making it harder for all teams to qualify for the HEC.

Maybe making it a 16 club competition would be tougher still. The four best from the AP, T14, RP12, best Scot and best Italian plus the winner of the Amlin and previous years HEC.

That would guaranty a tough competition with only the best of the best, though allowing for two token entries from the nations with less teams in an effort to spread European harmony.

Where a previous winner is guaranteed a spot the place from their league goes to the next in line.

On current seasons results that would see.

Leinster (For examples sake only I am saying they win this years comp)
Biarritz (As above)
Ospreys (Rp12 Qualifier)
Munster (Rp12 Qualifier)
Glasgow (Rp12 Qualifier)
Scarlets (Rp12 Qualifier) Leinster winners so next placed RP12 team is Scarlets
Quins (AP Qualifier)
Tigers (AP Qualifier)
Saries (AP Qualifier)
Saints (AP Qualifier)
Toulouse (T14 Qualifier)
Clermont (T14 Qualifier)
Toulon (T14 Qualifier)
Montpellier (T14 Qualifier)
Edinburgh (Scots)
Treviso (Italian)

That looks like a very tough competition to win to me. All the best European teams are in.

Smirnoff, under the current agreement, yes. But the point of this discussion is the possible changes that could be made and enshrined in a new agreement, currently up for negotiation and due to come into effect in the next couple of years. As I see it the current agreement need not have any relevance to the new one. I expect the majority of it will go unchanged, but we are discussing possible changes that could improve the competition.

Best way to improve it is it make it as tough as possible in my opinion.

Could revise my plan and have a play off between four clubs for the last two places. One Italian, one Scots plus one AP and one T14 team.

Could revise my plan and have a play off between four clubs for the last two places. One Italian, one Scots plus one AP and one T14 team

When in the season would you hold them? The rugby schedule is so full that if anything it could do with dropping a few games.

maesteg

One flaw, you are missing a HC 1/4 finalist, and regular qualifier and a tier one club in your proposed plans!

And also this years Finalists and possible winners!!!

Why would the Celtic nations agree to this when they lose out massively?!

I wrote this on the other thread about the English and French threat to the HC. I think it's appropriate here.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I believe it took France 15 years to win their first game when they entered the 5 nations. But it was worthwhile. Because eventually, through regular competition they caught up and even surpassed the teams that once spanked them. Sending them to play in a lower tier would not have had the same effect. It was competition with the top teams that did it, eventually.

I think ideally every nation should have the opportunity to have their domestic teams play the best of other nations. That's the whole point. The NFL is the model for European rugby to follow. There could be an English Conference, a French Conference and a Celtic/Italian Conference. The English and French could even keep their relegation/promotion with the next tier of their domestic game, and award their respective national trophies to conference winners before the playoffs. But EVERY year EVERY nation pits their best against the best of Europe. That's my ideal. This European Super Comp could even be played out in a fewer number of games than the current mish-mash of league/HC/Amlin/LV etc.

There could even be an eastern conference (Russia/Romania/Georgia) added in easily when ready. And perhaps a western conference (Spain/Portugal/Belgium?) in the future. But everybody is part of the one competition. No other priorities. One level playing field. All nations represented.

What would people think of an open draw ala FA Cup with all teams and you play one game knock out

I think one of the porblems people have is that there are not enough high end games for the top teams. We maybe get one a group and then the quarters. With a smaller number in the top you would have alot more and as per the OP there would be things to play for at the top

I don't know why you would want to make it more elitist (and narrow the fan base). The group stages are by far the best part of the competition for most people anyway because they are still in with a chance. You lose all but the hardcore fans once you get to the knock-out stages (reducing revenue from tv audiences etc). Look at what a club like Toulouse turning up in Connacht can do for rugby (their league ticket sales went up by over 100% this season).

The English and French are disenchanted with the comp at the moment - reduce the number of clubs that they can enter and they will be even more disenchanted.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Could revise my plan and have a play off between four clubs for the last two places. One Italian, one Scots plus one AP and one T14 team

When in the season would you hold them? The rugby schedule is so full that if anything it could do with dropping a few games.

Maybe end of season, when those teams wont be playing in the HEC or Amlin Cup or their National leagues playoffs, as they would have qualified by other means.

It is just a suggestion to make sure that we get the best of the best playing each other.

thebluesmancometh wrote:maesteg

One flaw, you are missing a HC 1/4 finalist, and regular qualifier and a tier one club in your proposed plans!

And also this years Finalists and possible winners!!!

Why would the Celtic nations agree to this when they lose out massively?!

I don't think that the Celtic nations or Italians would agree to this, for that matter I don't think the English or French would either. But it would most likely give us the best 12 teams in Europe playing each other with no arguments. The other four might not be the same level as the qualify by means other than annual form.

I want to see the best rugby, I want my team to do well, but I want to watch the best rugby possible.

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:maesteg

One flaw, you are missing a HC 1/4 finalist, and regular qualifier and a tier one club in your proposed plans!

And also this years Finalists and possible winners!!!

Why would the Celtic nations agree to this when they lose out massively?!

I don't think that the Celtic nations or Italians would agree to this, for that matter I don't think the English or French would either. But it would most likely give us the best 12 teams in Europe playing each other with no arguments. The other four might not be the same level as the qualify by means other than annual form.

I want to see the best rugby, I want my team to do well, but I want to watch the best rugby possible.

Why don't you just watch you rate.

Sin é wrote:Look at what a club like Toulouse turning up in Connacht can do for rugby (their league ticket sales went up by over 100% this season).

It helped them financially and playing Toulouse home and away gave them experience of playing the best. Regular experience would drive up their standards.

The whole concept of the HC was to give all the nations best teams the opportunity to play Europe's best. It has already driven up the standards of Irish and Welsh rugby beyond recognition from the 90's. It will, in time, help Italy too.

This core concept of cross border top level competition has to remain. It was never designed to be a money maker for the richest and strongest clubs. If it was then the Irish wouldn't even have been invited in the first place and would still be in the doldrums.

Once upon a time, there was a pool competition in my local.Every monday a fella would come along and 9 times out of 10 he'd win it. My goodness he wound people up. He used to deliberately cannon their balls onto the cushion, stand on the seating and launch into a break off shot, snooker you somehow. He was really hard to beat.

Get this - people got fed up that he kept winning so they moaned to the organiser to change the rules so he couldn't keep winning. After months of pestering the organiser finally conceded and brought in new rules. Guess what? He kept winning and people kept moaning. More than that people bickered about the rules when they were playing someone else! The rules kept changing, he kept winning and laughed it all off. I personally said these rule changes - let's play normal rules I said whenever I faced him. Eventually I learned how to beat him. Unfortunately the organiser got so off that he quit and nobody was willing to do the job because of the bickering.

Why are the english moaning that the Irish keep winning the cup or how unfair it all is? Because they keep losing that's why. The french are spending £millions and are just about keeping up.

Sour grapes folks, sour grapes. Just learn how to win at rugby and quit yer whinning!

If it goes down to a 20 team tournament then I would be happy for it to be

top 6 English
top 6 French
top 8 Rabo

8 from the Rabo because it is a mixed league and they would be already giving up some spaces.


that would leave

4 Rabo
6 English
8 French for the Amlin

Total of 18 teams.

This could then be supplemented with 2 or 6 teams from outside those leagues to make a 20 or 24 team competition.


The bottom 4 in this years Rabo were, Dragons, Aironi, Treviso and Edinburgh.

There would be a much better battle for that 8th spot if it was this way. Connacht came 8th, 1 point ahead of the Dragons and Treviso in 9th and 10th. Games between these teams would be much better if qualification was at stake.

That also ignores the fact that Edinburgh came 11th but did very well in the HC.

That's a coincidental analogy scarlet. There's a guy in my local that I could never beat at pool either. I mean I never beat him even once. So frustrating (and cost me countless fivers). He eventually had such a psychological edge over me that even when I got into a position to win I'd bottle it on the black.

Then a few months ago the black went in. I beat him. And now I can beat him fairly regularly even though he still wins the majority. But struggling and striving to beat him for so long actually made me much better, in terms of my accuracy but also my composure.

That's my point about all 6 nations a having a seat at the top tier. In the long run it can only raise the standards of the weaker nations and therefore raise the standards of European rugby as a whole. But it takes time.

Doc, I appreciate what you're saying but the main reason the Rabbo is so patchy is availability of test players. That is a structural problem with the season layout. Games would be better contested if the teams were at full strength.

Long and short is there are many ways to improve the Rabbo but the English and French are just nursing bruised ego's and whinning about the HC. A bit of bully boy muscle flexing. They should be sent to the headmaster's office to stand for lunch time and think about their behavior

Seriously speaking, if HC numbers are to be cut then it should be because of the congested schedule. 8 groups of 3 would do it - top of the group goes straight through. Job done.

Spot on feckless

I'll say it again. The English and French clubs do every time this comes up. The last time was 2007 and was back when only Munster and Ulster had won (7 years apart). It's got nothing to do with the Irish success. Under there proposed system the top Irish teams wouldn't really be effected. It's all about money.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'll say it again. The English and French clubs do every time this comes up. The last time was 2007 and was back when only Munster and Ulster had won (7 years apart). It's got nothing to do with the Irish success. Under there proposed system the top Irish teams wouldn't really be effected. It's all about money.

True - we all remember the 6N Sky deal debacle!

I used to do athletics, 100m sprint was my game, I did it every Sunday. However, I also had to run marathons every Saturday, so there was one guy who I could never beat, as he just went for powerwalks on Saturday. Some said he had an unfair advantage over me. I couldn't get out my marathons on Saturday, so I made him run them as well. Then I beat him at sprinting.

True story. Nothing to do with rugby though.

I'd expand the European Cup to 8 pools of 6 teams (48 teams).
10 English Teams
10 French Teams
12 Rabo Direct Teams
8 Currie Cup Teams (South Africa)
2 Top League teams (Japan)
2 Rugby Super League (USA), Red Zone winner, Blue Zone winner
1 Canadian Rugby Championship team
1 División de Honor (Spain)
1 Professional Rugby League (Russia)
1 Romanian team (Bucureşti Wolves)

Then scrap the Amlin Cup.

AlynDavies wrote:I'd expand the European Cup to 8 pools of 6 teams (48 teams).
10 English Teams
10 French Teams
12 Rabo Direct Teams
8 Currie Cup Teams (South Africa)
2 Top League teams (Japan)
2 Rugby Super League (USA), Red Zone winner, Blue Zone winner
1 Canadian Rugby Championship team
1 División de Honor (Spain)
1 Professional Rugby League (Russia)
1 Romanian team (Bucureşti Wolves)

Then scrap the Amlin Cup.

I like it!

So you are excluding the European country with more professional teams than anyone bar England and France

geoff999rugby wrote:So you are excluding the European country with more professional teams than anyone bar England and France

Who is that?

Iv'e included all the teams that have previously been linked with joining either Sup 15 rugby and South Africa. As well as the Romanian team included in the Amlin Cup, and a team from the professional league there.

There has also been a lot of talk of the potential marketing oppertunities of having American and Japanease teams in the Super 15.

The only other country where I might of added a team is Germany, possible adding a new provincial team in the Baden-Württemberg region. A lot of their best rugby teams are in that area. The German National team plays most of their games in Heidelberg.

robbo

Not sur eif your taking the pee there, but from a purely physiological POV most of what you said would be bull poop!!

Alyn the Georgians have a fully professional league with 10 teams in it.

They are above all the countries mentioned.

By any yardstick they are the 7th country in Europe

If the system is reformed I would like to see;

24 teams, current format.

Guaranteed each year;

4 French teams
4 English teams
3 Irish teams
3 Welsh team
1 Scottish team
1 Italian team

These are decided by league placing.

And then the other eight qualifiers are the quarter-finalists from the previous year. So each nation gets another place for every quarter-finalist they provide.

I think that constitutes a fair compromise. The idea of a Heineken Cup without participating teams from each of the Six Nations is, frankly, not something I want to see. I don't believe it's good for Irish Rugby.

why does there have to be a reform? whats wrong with the competition as it is?

thebluesmancometh wrote:robbo

Not sur eif your taking the pee there, but from a purely physiological POV most of what you said would be bull poop!!

The first one.

geoff999rugby wrote:Alyn the Georgians have a fully professional league with 10 teams in it.

They are above all the countries mentioned.

By any yardstick they are the 7th country in Europe

Out of curiosity where have you got this info from? I've heard it before but never seen any references. The IRB record Georgia as having 47 registered clubs in total. I can't find any mention of a professional rugby league on the web. Also the wonderful wikipedia have the Georgian championship top league having 8 teams (the web pages linked are in, what I presume, to be Georgia). Unfortunately I'm a typical English person and don't speak Georgia (even though we share a patron saint).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:why does there have to be a reform? whats wrong with the competition as it is?

Perhaps you missed it but the French and English clubs have given their notice that they are pulling out in two years time.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:why does there have to be a reform? whats wrong with the competition as it is?

Perhaps you missed it but the French and English clubs have given their notice that they are pulling out in two years time.

Will clubs like Leicester & Northampton not miss the big paydays (ticket wise) when they end up playing Munster & Leinster. I think every team moved to a larger venue when they played Munster (including Castres). Leicester made a fortune when Leinster moved their QF last year to the Aviva.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:why does there have to be a reform? whats wrong with the competition as it is?

Perhaps you missed it but the French and English clubs have given their notice that they are pulling out in two years time.

Will clubs like Leicester & Northampton not miss the big paydays (ticket wise) when they end up playing Munster & Leinster. I think every team moved to a larger venue when they played Munster (including Castres). Leicester made a fortune when Leinster moved their QF last year to the Aviva.

I don't know how the money distribution works but only one side would be playing against Leinster or Munster. It would all depend on the sponsorship/TV deals they get for a propose Anglo-French cup. If half of that is more than their current allocation then they'd be better off. If not then they'd be better in the league. The final decision will come down to money. If they'd get more from going 'alone' then they will. All the stuff about not being able to claim the title "best in Europe is meaningless". If think Sky would be desperate to keep the HEC but ESPN show quite a bit of both T14 and Jeff and may well offer a decent amount for the coverage as then Sky would only have SANZAR and 1 Jeff game a week.

Hammer I probably have the number wrong 8 not 10.

We know as fact that Georgia are ranked 7th out of the European nations a full 7 points above 8th place Rumania. Basically the rankings suggest they are close to Scotland and Italy than they are to Rumania

I dont have a citation for the fact that the league is professional but I have been told that by some in the game. I think the league gets pretty good crowds too - it is challanging soccer for being the most important game in the country.

They should be targetted to be given a helping hand there is a passion for the game there, they could be quite good and it has far more potential than soccer dominated countries like Portugal, Spain and Germany.

The good thing about targeting the Georgians is that because tensions between them and Russia are generally high, anything Georgia becomes good in will also provoke interest from the Russians.

Will clubs like Leicester & Northampton not miss the big paydays (ticket wise) when they end up playing Munster & Leinster. I think every team moved to a larger venue when they played Munster (including Castres). Leicester made a fortune when Leinster moved their QF last year to the Aviva.

Tigers sell out Welford Rd for pretty much every HEC game almost irrelevent of who is turning up. They sell out for quite a few AP games as well (vs Bath and Saints, they are always sold out well in advance) so Munster and Leinster aren't any more of a payday than any other European team tbh. Tigers would certainly prefer to keep the HEC but obviously as a body the English teams don't like the current distribution of cash.

Tigers board have already spoken to Super 15 sides about a world club competition but couldn't fit it into the schedule. I'd expect that to go full steam ahead if the HEC breaks down.

I think the Saffers are more likely to link up with the Pro12 than the English or French to be honest.

The pro12 teams will be far more adaptable in accomodating them.
In fact discussion on this very idea took place to quite a detailed level 3/4 years back.

geoff998rugby wrote:Hammer I probably have the number wrong 8 not 10.

We know as fact that Georgia are ranked 7th out of the European nations a full 7 points above 8th place Rumania. Basically the rankings suggest they are close to Scotland and Italy than they are to Rumania

I dont have a citation for the fact that the league is professional but I have been told that by some in the game. I think the league gets pretty good crowds too - it is challanging soccer for being the most important game in the country.

They should be targetted to be given a helping hand there is a passion for the game there, they could be quite good and it has far more potential than soccer dominated countries like Portugal, Spain and Germany.

I just wondered if they had been confused with the Russians as they DO have a fully professional 10 team league.

I think that if the PRL and T14 clubs pullout atleast the fff will enter thier Div 2 teams.

Could anything be done about that, as it is the union that picks them.

The winner of the LV gets an english spot in english so Wasps could have won it and got the sixth spot.

If the Eng & Fra leave the Rabo has to go after other countries. It can't have a Rabo cup cause no one would watch it.

I would love to see the SAFAs come to Europe as they would bring so much and raise the standards aswell