What's in a name? Offensive or not.

I've been rebuked a couple of times in the past couple of weeks for using offensive generic names:

1. Ladyboys - a fellow poster said that this was offensive to Leinster fans although it is commonly used by their own fans.

2. Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

So what is allowable?

Is it right to refer to Argentinians as Argies (as opposed to Pakistanis as p-words)?
Saracens as Saffacens?
Ulster as Saffergits?
Scots a Jocks (or sweaties)
English as Sais or sassenach?
Welsh, New Zealand, Oz, English rural dwellers etc as sheep-s*aggers.

Can I call Llanelli female rugby fans Scarlet Women?

What is acceptable and what is not?

There really ought to be a Admin/mod input into this (I'll PM the admin that rebuked me link for this article).

female Scarlets fans would be Scarlets Women - a subtle difference

It's a tricky thing to handle really, often it depends on how individual posters react. I would say just personally, to avoid any trouble, just refer to countries/teams by their normal name if you aren't sure if the alternative is going to be offensive or not

rugbydreamer wrote:female Scarlets fans would be Scarlets Women - a subtle difference

It's a tricky thing to handle really, often it depends on how individual posters react. I would say just personally, to avoid any trouble, just refer to countries/teams by their normal name if you aren't sure if the alternative is going to be offensive or not

But I posted using another poster's words, RD. From a country which is likely to be the core of the problem.

And If I am not Irish, am I expected to understand when Leinstermen use Ladyboys (or even base their username on it), am I supposed to know what is acceptable or not.

PC times huh?

I'm of the opinion that if you get offended by any of those words mentioned then you're far too sensitive and should realise it's a choice to be offended. It's about intent not choice of words, it all harks back to the whole rose/chair debate from Romeo and Juliet. The word isn't important, it's the intent, and as such to be offended by use of these words on a forum like this is just juvenile and sad.

Micks
Taffs
Frogs
Eyeties
Jocks
Limeys (or whatever)
Convicts
Boers
Sheepshaggers
Argies

Which is the most offensive?

Whic is the most

I think most of the time people choose to be offended.

Yo could use any of those terminologies towards a friend, and they'll be OK with it, as soon as a stranger or person they have not befriended use those terms depending on their mood, they could either choose to be offended or not.

I call my biker mate, "Biker trash" if anyone other than us use that term it would most likely offend us.

biltongbek wrote:I think most of the time people choose to be offended.

Yo could use any of those terminologies towards a friend, and they'll be OK with it, as soon as a stranger or person they have not befriended use those terms depending on their mood, they could either choose to be offended or not.

I call my biker mate, "Biker trash" if anyone other than us use that term it would most likely offend us.

The problem is that in a public forum that there is no way that you can pre-judge recipients' emotions.

Ni**er is clearly unacceptable (although it comes from the Latin for black).

This post only goes to emphasise that you can take a nickname as an insult.

You hairyback

Another problem with an internet forum is that you can't always judge what tone the word is written in etc. That's why I said unless you're really sure it won't offend, just stick to the country/teams actual name

I'll give a good example about choosing to be offended. I knew of a lad who played for a local youth rugby team and who was nicknamed 'choccy'. He was black. The only black player on the team. He had the nickname from very young and grew up with it and still, to this day (mid 30's), is known by the same nickname. He didn't take offence and hence it stuck. On the opposite side of the coin I once worked for Newport City Council in an office job (straight out of Uni and looking for some beer money) and there were two black workers there who had formed a black workers association and were trying to get the term 'black coffee' banned because they found it offensive. We were meant to say 'coffee without milk' instead. I kid you not. These are two sides of the coin and extreme examples admittedly. In the former I think the nickname went a bit far and I actually get a bit embarrassed when I hear him called it (he doesn't). In the latter I think this is political correctness gone mad, and a case of being far too oversensitive, making an argument out of nothing.

The point is that, as others have said, it's a personal thing to be offended by things, but it does take a bit of common sense and sensistivity from the person saying it too. Why use a term that might cause offence? Surely if you're going to push the boundaries and use such a term, it should only be used with those who you're comfortable with and know it won't cause offence. The people on the internet are not those people. Your words are seen by potentially thousands, but you probably have only met a handful if at all. I'd err on the side of cuation on the internet or real life when talking to those you don't know. It's polite!

For the record, Taff, Sheep-sh*gger, leek muncher, etc. are all fine with me. But then I think they're quite funny and I like a laugh. It's an individual thing. Plus, there's no term for a Welshman, to my knowledge, that is socially unacceptable or a universal no-no like certin words for race and ethnicity, so I haven't encountered any problems or been offended so far.

rugbydreamer wrote:Another problem with an internet forum is that you can't always judge what tone the word is written in etc. That's why I said unless you're really sure it won't offend, just stick to the country/teams actual name

Note to self - Must refer to Tigers as Leicester RFC in future.

And Wales as Gwalia or Cymru lest it offend...

but they are Leicester Tigers, no? so why would you stop calling them Tigers?

me thinks you are being overly pedantic now Portnoy

Portnoy - Leicester Tigers are the teams name.

There is also a Leicester Lions (who play in Nat Div 2)

Portnoy wrote:I've been rebuked a couple of times in the past couple of weeks for using offensive generic names:

1. Ladyboys - a fellow poster said that this was offensive to Leinster fans although it is commonly used by their own fans.

2. Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

So what is allowable?

Is it right to refer to Argentinians as Argies (as opposed to Pakistanis as p-words)?
Saracens as Saffacens?
Ulster as Saffergits?
Scots a Jocks (or sweaties)
English as Sais or sassenach?
Welsh, New Zealand, Oz, English rural dwellers etc as sheep-s*aggers.

Can I call Llanelli female rugby fans Scarlet Women?

What is acceptable and what is not?

There really ought to be a Admin/mod input into this (I'll PM the admin that rebuked me link for this article).

Show me someone from leinster that calls themselves a ladyboy. of course its meant to be offensive. as is the word Paddy although i wouldnt expect you to understand. the name paddy has been used because a long time ago irish were seen a muck in most countries and they couldnt be bothered learning the individual names of irish people so they called them all paddys.

Griff wrote:
For the record, Taff, Sheep-sh*gger, leek muncher, etc. are all fine with me. But then I think they're quite funny and I like a laugh. It's an individual thing. Plus, there's no term for a Welshman, to my knowledge, that is socially unacceptable or a universal no-no like certin words for race and ethnicity, so I haven't encountered any problems or been offended so far.

That sounds like a challenge you big.. East Brit, daffodil sniffing, dragon flagging, harmony singing, sing song accenty having face.

Submachine wrote:

Griff wrote:
For the record, Taff, Sheep-sh*gger, leek muncher, etc. are all fine with me. But then I think they're quite funny and I like a laugh. It's an individual thing. Plus, there's no term for a Welshman, to my knowledge, that is socially unacceptable or a universal no-no like certin words for race and ethnicity, so I haven't encountered any problems or been offended so far.

That sounds like a challenge you big.. East Brit, daffodil sniffing, dragon flagging, harmony singing, sing song accenty having face.

Love it! By the way though, I haven't got a sing song accent - I've got a crap Newport one, slightly weakened by time spent living in Bristol and London! Wales, like England, has different accents for different areas. Who'd have thunk it.

caoimhincentre wrote:

Portnoy wrote:I've been rebuked a couple of times in the past couple of weeks for using offensive generic names:

1. Ladyboys - a fellow poster said that this was offensive to Leinster fans although it is commonly used by their own fans.

2. Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

So what is allowable?

Is it right to refer to Argentinians as Argies (as opposed to Pakistanis as p-words)?
Saracens as Saffacens?
Ulster as Saffergits?
Scots a Jocks (or sweaties)
English as Sais or sassenach?
Welsh, New Zealand, Oz, English rural dwellers etc as sheep-s*aggers.

Can I call Llanelli female rugby fans Scarlet Women?

What is acceptable and what is not?

There really ought to be a Admin/mod input into this (I'll PM the admin that rebuked me link for this article).

Show me someone from leinster that calls themselves a ladyboy. of course its meant to be offensive. as is the word Paddy although i wouldnt expect you to understand. the name paddy has been used because a long time ago irish were seen a muck in most countries and they couldnt be bothered learning the individual names of irish people so they called them all paddys.

Ask Jenifer McLadyboy or Gibson mate. PM them to express your concerns.

Please don't blame me for raising a grey issue.

you are not raising a grey issue you are purposely being provocative as usual

I once had a black Labrador called snowflake.

Submachine wrote:

Griff wrote:
For the record, Taff, Sheep-sh*gger, leek muncher, etc. are all fine with me. But then I think they're quite funny and I like a laugh. It's an individual thing. Plus, there's no term for a Welshman, to my knowledge, that is socially unacceptable or a universal no-no like certin words for race and ethnicity, so I haven't encountered any problems or been offended so far.

That sounds like a challenge you big.. East Brit, daffodil sniffing, dragon flagging, harmony singing, sing song accenty having face.

Who moved Wales and didn't tell me?

Last time I looked it was in the Western part of Britain, no?

Portnoy wrote:
Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

The point at issue in the "rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue" thread referred to Blair Mayne. An Irish poster mentioned that a statue of Blair "Paddy" Mayne had been erected in his home town. Portnoy responded referring to "Paddy Mayne" omitting his given Christian name.

First point - I am not an admin.
Second point - I PMed both the Irish poster and Portnoy, explaining that I was sure that neither intended to be in any way offensive, but that in view of the usual use of the moniker Paddy, it was not right that such a brave man should be insulted in this way. I used the PM system, rather than responding to the posts on the thread as I was sure no offence was intended.


For those who are unaware of his career, Blair Mayne played rugby for Ireland and went on tour with the Lions in the late 1930s. He was from Northern Ireland and when it became apparent that he would not see active service in his NI reserve army regiment he transferred to a regiment on the mainland. In the course of WWII he was a founding member of what became the SAS and was put up for a VC. This was not awarded. There are some who feel that he was denied the VC because he was a bit of a maverick and did not respond well to those who fought their war from behind the safety of a desk. After the war he returned to NI where he resumed his career as a solicitor and sadly was killed driving home late one night when he crashed his car. He was named Blair after an uncle of his who had fought with distinction in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. A programme I saw some time ago on TV recounted his career. All bar one of the talking heads were (mainland) British. The singular exception was a barrister from Ireland who knew Mayne professionally. All the British referred to Paddy Mayne; the Irish barrister referred to Blair Mayne.


Blair Mayne was given the moniker "Paddy" when he transferred to the mainland regiment.

Do you think that this was intended to be friendly, inclusive and / or welcoming? Calling a man, whose Christian name is other than Patrick, Paddy is intended to diminish, insult, belittle or emphasise his Irishness and brings with it all the perceived weaknesses associated with historical anti-Irish prejudice. Blair Mayne was an extraordinarily brave man. Those of you who were around in the 1970s when the Troubles in NI were really taking off may well remember the Irish jokes which were common currency then. These were all designed to show how stupid, reckless and unreliable Irish people were. They were racist and offensive and were intended to be such.

Those who fought with Blair Mayne in WWII may well have intended to insult him at first by calling him Paddy, but given his exploits, they surely came to respect him - his leadership, his judgement, his intelligence and his bravery. However, had he been black and nicknamed using the N-word, NO ONE today would dream of continuing to use it and would always refer to him by his given name. This is the point I was making. "Paddy" in this case was intended as an insult. We do wrong by an extremely brave man by continuing the insult.

KiaRose wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

The point at issue in the "rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue" thread referred to Blair Mayne. An Irish poster mentioned that a statue of Blair "Paddy" Mayne had been erected in his home town. Portnoy responded referring to "Paddy Mayne" omitting his given Christian name.

First point - I am not an admin.
Second point - I PMed both the Irish poster and Portnoy, explaining that I was sure that neither intended to be in any way offensive, but that in view of the usual use of the moniker Paddy, it was not right that such a brave man should be insulted in this way. I used the PM system, rather than responding to the posts on the thread as I was sure no offence was intended.


For those who are unaware of his career, Blair Mayne played rugby for Ireland and went on tour with the Lions in the late 1930s. He was from Northern Ireland and when it became apparent that he would not see active service in his NI reserve army regiment he transferred to a regiment on the mainland. In the course of WWII he was a founding member of what became the SAS and was put up for a VC. This was not awarded. There are some who feel that he was denied the VC because he was a bit of a maverick and did not respond well to those who fought their war from behind the safety of a desk. After the war he returned to NI where he resumed his career as a solicitor and sadly was killed driving home late one night when he crashed his car. He was named Blair after an uncle of his who had fought with distinction in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. A programme I saw some time ago on TV recounted his career. All bar one of the talking heads were (mainland) British. The singular exception was a barrister from Ireland who knew Mayne professionally. All the British referred to Paddy Mayne; the Irish barrister referred to Blair Mayne.


Blair Mayne was given the moniker "Paddy" when he transferred to the mainland regiment.

Do you think that this was intended to be friendly, inclusive and / or welcoming? Calling a man, whose Christian name is other than Patrick, Paddy is intended to diminish, insult, belittle or emphasise his Irishness and brings with it all the perceived weaknesses associated with historical anti-Irish prejudice. Blair Mayne was an extraordinarily brave man. Those of you who were around in the 1970s when the Troubles in NI were really taking off may well remember the Irish jokes which were common currency then. These were all designed to show how stupid, reckless and unreliable Irish people were. They were racist and offensive and were intended to be such.

Those who fought with Blair Mayne in WWII may well have intended to insult him at first by calling him Paddy, but given his exploits, they surely came to respect him - his leadership, his judgement, his intelligence and his bravery. However, had he been black and nicknamed using the N-word, NO ONE today would dream of continuing to use it and would always refer to him by his given name. This is the point I was making. "Paddy" in this case was intended as an insult. We do wrong by an extremely brave man by continuing the insult.

+1

i was trying to make a similar point but you have done it fair better than I.
Fair play

Official statistics suggest that more people in England shag sheep in comparison to the welsh and New Zealenders?

Do those stats reflect holidaying Welsh and Kiwi's Ruby?

Carpe Diem wrote:Do those stats reflect holidaying Welsh and Kiwi's Ruby?

That's a good point, having checked it out, more english people holiday in Wales than the other way around, that is according to OPCASS

RubyGuby wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Do those stats reflect holidaying Welsh and Kiwi's Ruby?

That's a good point, having checked it out, more english people holiday in Wales than the other way around, that is according to OPCASS

There was a time when our sheep were more discerning - now they're carrying on with holidaymakers. Whatever next....

caoimhincentre wrote:

KiaRose wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

The point at issue in the "rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue" thread referred to Blair Mayne. An Irish poster mentioned that a statue of Blair "Paddy" Mayne had been erected in his home town. Portnoy responded referring to "Paddy Mayne" omitting his given Christian name.

First point - I am not an admin.
Second point - I PMed both the Irish poster and Portnoy, explaining that I was sure that neither intended to be in any way offensive, but that in view of the usual use of the moniker Paddy, it was not right that such a brave man should be insulted in this way. I used the PM system, rather than responding to the posts on the thread as I was sure no offence was intended.


For those who are unaware of his career, Blair Mayne played rugby for Ireland and went on tour with the Lions in the late 1930s. He was from Northern Ireland and when it became apparent that he would not see active service in his NI reserve army regiment he transferred to a regiment on the mainland. In the course of WWII he was a founding member of what became the SAS and was put up for a VC. This was not awarded. There are some who feel that he was denied the VC because he was a bit of a maverick and did not respond well to those who fought their war from behind the safety of a desk. After the war he returned to NI where he resumed his career as a solicitor and sadly was killed driving home late one night when he crashed his car. He was named Blair after an uncle of his who had fought with distinction in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. A programme I saw some time ago on TV recounted his career. All bar one of the talking heads were (mainland) British. The singular exception was a barrister from Ireland who knew Mayne professionally. All the British referred to Paddy Mayne; the Irish barrister referred to Blair Mayne.


Blair Mayne was given the moniker "Paddy" when he transferred to the mainland regiment.

Do you think that this was intended to be friendly, inclusive and / or welcoming? Calling a man, whose Christian name is other than Patrick, Paddy is intended to diminish, insult, belittle or emphasise his Irishness and brings with it all the perceived weaknesses associated with historical anti-Irish prejudice. Blair Mayne was an extraordinarily brave man. Those of you who were around in the 1970s when the Troubles in NI were really taking off may well remember the Irish jokes which were common currency then. These were all designed to show how stupid, reckless and unreliable Irish people were. They were racist and offensive and were intended to be such.

Those who fought with Blair Mayne in WWII may well have intended to insult him at first by calling him Paddy, but given his exploits, they surely came to respect him - his leadership, his judgement, his intelligence and his bravery. However, had he been black and nicknamed using the N-word, NO ONE today would dream of continuing to use it and would always refer to him by his given name. This is the point I was making. "Paddy" in this case was intended as an insult. We do wrong by an extremely brave man by continuing the insult.

+1

i was trying to make a similar point but you have done it fair better than I.
Fair play

His given Christian names were Robert Blair MrsP, as you will know, it's entirely normal for Irishmen to be called any number of names by their friends and intimates other than their given Christian name, that's just the way it is - I would imagine he bore a strong likeness to his uncle Blair and those who knew that would refer to him as Blair as a term of familiarity, it wouldn't be long before he wasn't known by anything else.

One of my mom's cousins is called Pat or Paddy, his Christian name is Peter and there is no Patrick/Padraig anywhere in his name, her brother was called Richard by everyone who knew him, but his name was Clement - again no Richard anywhere in his name.

Here's something I do know about nicknames in the military; if you've got one - you're in, if you haven't - you've got no friends. The fact that Lt. Col. R.B. Mayne was known by everybody he served with as "Paddy" was without doubt an example of unusual affection for an officer, who usually got and do get saddled with rather less acceptable names.

I've never seen or read any evidence to suggest that the term was applied to him as an insult, and would suggest that the first person to have tried that particular angle would have been the last - nobody fecked with Paddy. In fact, one of the reasons he was singled out for inclusion into Stirling's initial LRDG experiment was due to the fact that he was, at the time, under arrest for sparking out his CO in a discussion over "unecessary Company business".

Furthermore, I think all of the biographies written about him and his exploits, including the official biography sanctioned by his family, were written by Irishmen and include the "Paddy" moniker in the titles of the books. I can't see where the evidence is for it being derived from an insult.

Some ignorants do use the term in a derogatory fashion to be sure, but to suggest that only the British called him Paddy is unfair, not to mention inaccurate, and to state that anyone called Paddy who's name isn't Patrick is done so in an attempt to belittle or dimish simply isn't true.

Lt. Col. R.B. "Paddy" Mayne was a fine man, a brave, courageous and unflinching force of nature in the face of the enemy, but suffered a little from being a bit of a shoite "soldier", the hierachy in the British Military establishment do not hand out VC's to officers who hit other officers because they don't like their attitude, that's just the sort of BS that Paddy wouldn't have stood for and wouldn't have given a toss for a VC off the likes of them anyway.

I can understand you finding Portnoy offensive, he's a Tigger - stands to reason really - but in this instance I think you're a little off the mark.

Absolutely no offence intended.

Ah Jaysus lads, this is all a bit high fallutin for me. Then again I don't even know where Wales is.

I think it is sad that the world has become so politically correct.

There is hardly room for manouvre these days and you offend someone.

So the guy calls you a BOER, well I am an afrikaner boer, it isn't going to change.

It isn't going to ruin my day if that happens, I'll be far more upset if someone accuses me of being dishonest.

Some cxnt called me British yesterday so i put the head on him - So much for political correctness eh!!

its one thing being overly sensitive but when you suspect someone is doing it to try and wind you up its another.

It's offensive for a non-Irish person to use the word 'Paddy' as a pejorative, although you were blameless in that case. It's also relatively offensive to describe Leinster fans as 'Ladyboys'.

There's a difference between a group re-claiming a word and using it tongue in cheek about themselves to an outsider of that group using that same word. The N-word (which I will not type) in the USA is a perfect example of that. The best advice is if any doubt, steer clear.

And, unfortunately, if you're English you're much more likely to ruffle Irish feathers with any use of the word 'Paddy' as it has a history of being used as an exceptionally derogatory term by British during the subjugation of Ireland. Rightly or wrongly, and English person using it will likely cause offence.

Kia- I very much appreciated your PM. It's a case of the dangers of copy and paste I'm afraid. I was going over my post and I couldn't remember Maynes full name. So I copied and pasted from wikipedia (I know...) to quickly fill it in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Mayne

Maybe someone should edit that.

Note that I'm taking this article at face value- it could be construed as just an excuse for you to post a load of random insults!

biltongbek wrote:I think it is sad that the world has become so politically correct.

There is hardly room for manouvre these days and you offend someone.

So the guy calls you a BOER, well I am an afrikaner boer, it isn't going to change.

It isn't going to ruin my day if that happens, I'll be far more upset if someone accuses me of being dishonest.

Bilton - I think the fella called you a Bore, or An Afrikaner Bore, it's something different altogether

Mate, they can call me many things, but boring isn't one of them.

Unless of course it is my wife.

PJHolybloke wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

KiaRose wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

The point at issue in the "rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue" thread referred to Blair Mayne. An Irish poster mentioned that a statue of Blair "Paddy" Mayne had been erected in his home town. Portnoy responded referring to "Paddy Mayne" omitting his given Christian name.

First point - I am not an admin.
Second point - I PMed both the Irish poster and Portnoy, explaining that I was sure that neither intended to be in any way offensive, but that in view of the usual use of the moniker Paddy, it was not right that such a brave man should be insulted in this way. I used the PM system, rather than responding to the posts on the thread as I was sure no offence was intended.


For those who are unaware of his career, Blair Mayne played rugby for Ireland and went on tour with the Lions in the late 1930s. He was from Northern Ireland and when it became apparent that he would not see active service in his NI reserve army regiment he transferred to a regiment on the mainland. In the course of WWII he was a founding member of what became the SAS and was put up for a VC. This was not awarded. There are some who feel that he was denied the VC because he was a bit of a maverick and did not respond well to those who fought their war from behind the safety of a desk. After the war he returned to NI where he resumed his career as a solicitor and sadly was killed driving home late one night when he crashed his car. He was named Blair after an uncle of his who had fought with distinction in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. A programme I saw some time ago on TV recounted his career. All bar one of the talking heads were (mainland) British. The singular exception was a barrister from Ireland who knew Mayne professionally. All the British referred to Paddy Mayne; the Irish barrister referred to Blair Mayne.


Blair Mayne was given the moniker "Paddy" when he transferred to the mainland regiment.

Do you think that this was intended to be friendly, inclusive and / or welcoming? Calling a man, whose Christian name is other than Patrick, Paddy is intended to diminish, insult, belittle or emphasise his Irishness and brings with it all the perceived weaknesses associated with historical anti-Irish prejudice. Blair Mayne was an extraordinarily brave man. Those of you who were around in the 1970s when the Troubles in NI were really taking off may well remember the Irish jokes which were common currency then. These were all designed to show how stupid, reckless and unreliable Irish people were. They were racist and offensive and were intended to be such.

Those who fought with Blair Mayne in WWII may well have intended to insult him at first by calling him Paddy, but given his exploits, they surely came to respect him - his leadership, his judgement, his intelligence and his bravery. However, had he been black and nicknamed using the N-word, NO ONE today would dream of continuing to use it and would always refer to him by his given name. This is the point I was making. "Paddy" in this case was intended as an insult. We do wrong by an extremely brave man by continuing the insult.

+1

i was trying to make a similar point but you have done it fair better than I.
Fair play

His given Christian names were Robert Blair MrsP, as you will know, it's entirely normal for Irishmen to be called any number of names by their friends and intimates other than their given Christian name, that's just the way it is - I would imagine he bore a strong likeness to his uncle Blair and those who knew that would refer to him as Blair as a term of familiarity, it wouldn't be long before he wasn't known by anything else.

One of my mom's cousins is called Pat or Paddy, his Christian name is Peter and there is no Patrick/Padraig anywhere in his name, her brother was called Richard by everyone who knew him, but his name was Clement - again no Richard anywhere in his name.

Here's something I do know about nicknames in the military; if you've got one - you're in, if you haven't - you've got no friends. The fact that Lt. Col. R.B. Mayne was known by everybody he served with as "Paddy" was without doubt an example of unusual affection for an officer, who usually got and do get saddled with rather less acceptable names.

I've never seen or read any evidence to suggest that the term was applied to him as an insult, and would suggest that the first person to have tried that particular angle would have been the last - nobody fecked with Paddy. In fact, one of the reasons he was singled out for inclusion into Stirling's initial LRDG experiment was due to the fact that he was, at the time, under arrest for sparking out his CO in a discussion over "unecessary Company business".

Furthermore, I think all of the biographies written about him and his exploits, including the official biography sanctioned by his family, were written by Irishmen and include the "Paddy" moniker in the titles of the books. I can't see where the evidence is for it being derived from an insult.

Some ignorants do use the term in a derogatory fashion to be sure, but to suggest that only the British called him Paddy is unfair, not to mention inaccurate, and to state that anyone called Paddy who's name isn't Patrick is done so in an attempt to belittle or dimish simply isn't true.

Lt. Col. R.B. "Paddy" Mayne was a fine man, a brave, courageous and unflinching force of nature in the face of the enemy, but suffered a little from being a bit of a shoite "soldier", the hierachy in the British Military establishment do not hand out VC's to officers who hit other officers because they don't like their attitude, that's just the sort of BS that Paddy wouldn't have stood for and wouldn't have given a toss for a VC off the likes of them anyway.

I can understand you finding Portnoy offensive, he's a Tigger - stands to reason really - but in this instance I think you're a little off the mark.

Absolutely no offence intended.

In a thread on the subject of "names" I sincerely hope Kia isn't offended by you calling her MrsP!

I am a Munsterman (Co. Clare). I get called lots of names. Culchie, sheep shagger, bog trotter and muc savage. I would be down right offended if not every single one of those names didnt describe me perfectly

I really do hope that people don't get to precious on this sight, just as we were all starting to learn how each others work so to speak. Please let's not all get all p.c about this, I could not give a monkeys if somebody called me a sheep lover, or a leek muncher or a taffy or whatever other Welshy type of name you can think of, trust me I have been called worst. I can remember in my younger days there was a scouse comedian, or should I have said Liverpudlian comedian, in cafe Benidorm, he used to rip the living crap out of us on holidays but we always gave as good as we got, we sleep with them you eat them, or he would call us sheepshaggers and we would tell him, yes we are and your mother was good last night, and we seemed to get on like a house on fire, seriously some people just need to take a chill pill and relax, there are bigger fights to fight than worrying about stereotypical name calling.

MrsP wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

KiaRose wrote:

Portnoy wrote:
Paddy. An Admin PMed me for using that term (https://www.606v2.com/t28373-rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue). In fact I just c&p the name from an Irish poster.

The point at issue in the "rugby-people-who-deserve-a-statue" thread referred to Blair Mayne. An Irish poster mentioned that a statue of Blair "Paddy" Mayne had been erected in his home town. Portnoy responded referring to "Paddy Mayne" omitting his given Christian name.

First point - I am not an admin.
Second point - I PMed both the Irish poster and Portnoy, explaining that I was sure that neither intended to be in any way offensive, but that in view of the usual use of the moniker Paddy, it was not right that such a brave man should be insulted in this way. I used the PM system, rather than responding to the posts on the thread as I was sure no offence was intended.


For those who are unaware of his career, Blair Mayne played rugby for Ireland and went on tour with the Lions in the late 1930s. He was from Northern Ireland and when it became apparent that he would not see active service in his NI reserve army regiment he transferred to a regiment on the mainland. In the course of WWII he was a founding member of what became the SAS and was put up for a VC. This was not awarded. There are some who feel that he was denied the VC because he was a bit of a maverick and did not respond well to those who fought their war from behind the safety of a desk. After the war he returned to NI where he resumed his career as a solicitor and sadly was killed driving home late one night when he crashed his car. He was named Blair after an uncle of his who had fought with distinction in the Battle of the Somme in WWI. A programme I saw some time ago on TV recounted his career. All bar one of the talking heads were (mainland) British. The singular exception was a barrister from Ireland who knew Mayne professionally. All the British referred to Paddy Mayne; the Irish barrister referred to Blair Mayne.


Blair Mayne was given the moniker "Paddy" when he transferred to the mainland regiment.

Do you think that this was intended to be friendly, inclusive and / or welcoming? Calling a man, whose Christian name is other than Patrick, Paddy is intended to diminish, insult, belittle or emphasise his Irishness and brings with it all the perceived weaknesses associated with historical anti-Irish prejudice. Blair Mayne was an extraordinarily brave man. Those of you who were around in the 1970s when the Troubles in NI were really taking off may well remember the Irish jokes which were common currency then. These were all designed to show how stupid, reckless and unreliable Irish people were. They were racist and offensive and were intended to be such.

Those who fought with Blair Mayne in WWII may well have intended to insult him at first by calling him Paddy, but given his exploits, they surely came to respect him - his leadership, his judgement, his intelligence and his bravery. However, had he been black and nicknamed using the N-word, NO ONE today would dream of continuing to use it and would always refer to him by his given name. This is the point I was making. "Paddy" in this case was intended as an insult. We do wrong by an extremely brave man by continuing the insult.

+1

i was trying to make a similar point but you have done it fair better than I.
Fair play

His given Christian names were Robert Blair MrsP, as you will know, it's entirely normal for Irishmen to be called any number of names by their friends and intimates other than their given Christian name, that's just the way it is - I would imagine he bore a strong likeness to his uncle Blair and those who knew that would refer to him as Blair as a term of familiarity, it wouldn't be long before he wasn't known by anything else.

One of my mom's cousins is called Pat or Paddy, his Christian name is Peter and there is no Patrick/Padraig anywhere in his name, her brother was called Richard by everyone who knew him, but his name was Clement - again no Richard anywhere in his name.

Here's something I do know about nicknames in the military; if you've got one - you're in, if you haven't - you've got no friends. The fact that Lt. Col. R.B. Mayne was known by everybody he served with as "Paddy" was without doubt an example of unusual affection for an officer, who usually got and do get saddled with rather less acceptable names.

I've never seen or read any evidence to suggest that the term was applied to him as an insult, and would suggest that the first person to have tried that particular angle would have been the last - nobody fecked with Paddy. In fact, one of the reasons he was singled out for inclusion into Stirling's initial LRDG experiment was due to the fact that he was, at the time, under arrest for sparking out his CO in a discussion over "unecessary Company business".

Furthermore, I think all of the biographies written about him and his exploits, including the official biography sanctioned by his family, were written by Irishmen and include the "Paddy" moniker in the titles of the books. I can't see where the evidence is for it being derived from an insult.

Some ignorants do use the term in a derogatory fashion to be sure, but to suggest that only the British called him Paddy is unfair, not to mention inaccurate, and to state that anyone called Paddy who's name isn't Patrick is done so in an attempt to belittle or dimish simply isn't true.

Lt. Col. R.B. "Paddy" Mayne was a fine man, a brave, courageous and unflinching force of nature in the face of the enemy, but suffered a little from being a bit of a shoite "soldier", the hierachy in the British Military establishment do not hand out VC's to officers who hit other officers because they don't like their attitude, that's just the sort of BS that Paddy wouldn't have stood for and wouldn't have given a toss for a VC off the likes of them anyway.

I can understand you finding Portnoy offensive, he's a Tigger - stands to reason really - but in this instance I think you're a little off the mark.

Absolutely no offence intended.

In a thread on the subject of "names" I sincerely hope Kia isn't offended by you calling her MrsP!

What a clown, I can see what I did there - made a complete ar5e of myself!

Apologies to you both.

My mind is you treat other persons with respect until you knowing them well and they're ways. When you knowing someone else ways then you stop have to worry about it because you already know what is make angry them.

I think is not about if is ok to call "Paddy" or "Argie" or whatelse thing for people because from this country or that country. It is about how you address an individual persons. Some are more ok with some rude slang and others more easy hurt the feelings.

Simple advise is if you are not sure, then it is probably wrong!

anotherworldofpain wrote:My mind is you treat other persons with respect until you knowing them well and they're ways. When you knowing someone else ways then you stop have to worry about it because you already know what is make angry them.

I think is not about if is ok to call "Paddy" or "Argie" or whatelse thing for people because from this country or that country. It is about how you address an individual persons. Some are more ok with some rude slang and others more easy hurt the feelings.

Simple advise is if you are not sure, then it is probably wrong!

+ 1 - Well done, you've just quoted almost word for word one of the last centurys greatest Sociologists

Personally I don't use the word Paddy as a pejorative (insulting) term. Only in context.

Neither Ladyboys (I only ever came across the term from an ardent Leinster supporter who has consistently used it).

I am guilty of describing the Quins as Toffs, Sarries as Saffacens, Wasps as insects, Saints as sinners just as I've described my own team as Tiggers. Pussies and Cheatahs.

Some people ought to discern the difference between banter, irony and innocent comment.

caoimhincentre has pre-judged/misread me.

RubyGuby wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:My mind is you treat other persons with respect until you knowing them well and they're ways. When you knowing someone else ways then you stop have to worry about it because you already know what is make angry them.

I think is not about if is ok to call "Paddy" or "Argie" or whatelse thing for people because from this country or that country. It is about how you address an individual persons. Some are more ok with some rude slang and others more easy hurt the feelings.

Simple advise is if you are not sure, then it is probably wrong!

+ 1 - Well done, you've just quoted almost word for word one of the last centurys greatest Sociologists

I never know that the Grey Ghost ranked among the world's greatest sociologists - who'd've thunk it?!

Portnoy you scamp

To Jenifer McLadyboy:

As an Englishman, am I entitled to describe the Leinster team as the L**yb*s?

Portnoy, i can see a banning for you on the horizon

I expect a PM from an official any time soon.

I wonder what pretext this one will be on...

Yeah but you are pushing it, time to let it drop

No ban, Portnoy, just removed it as there is already a discussion on it in this thread.

I still say that GG was wrongly banned.

And that banned folk should be publicised.

And that (I guess) I'll be permanently banned I hope folk will remember me.

biltongbek wrote:No ban, Portnoy, just removed it as there is already a discussion on it in this thread.

Then you should have merged them biltong.

That's the procedure isn't it?