Penny and Foley- The Munster conundrum

Hi

So, something Alan Quinlan wrote got me thinking and I would like some Munster (wherever their fans have disappeared to!) input into this. Apparently, Penny has had one 1/2 hour conversation with Anthony Foley, over the phone, so it's a safe assumption that the 2 haven't has any time to talk to each other, gel, form a relationship, whatever. It follows that there are many unknowns about this extremely important (from a Munster point of view) relationship.

Quinlan basically says that Penny must form a relationship with Foley and quick or "the players will pick up on any division between the 2"... So, from the off, Penny is under pressure to ensure Foley is "onside". That's a lot of pressure for someone who's never met the guy.

Is Munster's future based on Foley "getting on well" with Penny, as Quinlan suggests? Will this put him immediately on the back foot in Munster? What would Penny make of this, coming across the globe for a job when he knows he must make sure Foley is on board? I know what I'd think if I had to transfer jobs to the other side of the world and were warned by an ex employee that unless I ensure a subordinate is on board,my tenure would be a failure?

Don't forget Foley went for the job and didn't get it.

This COULD go pear shaped. The dynamics aren't right from a HR point of view.

Yes its a risk.

Sag- an unnecessary risk in my view. Why is Foley so important to Munster in this respect?

If he were so important, give him the job.

Not ready? Tell him not to interview.

It seems Foley has all the power in this relationship before Penny gets on a plane and that is not good.

I would argue that Munsters success is a greater prize than Foley's ego?

Quinlan says:

Penney’s first job when he gets here will be to form a relationship with Anthony Foley. That’s the most important thing he will do in the early days of his time with Munster. He needs to appoint a manager and a backs coach as well but he has to win over Foley from the start.

So, Penny's 1st job is to "win over Foley"??? I would say his 1st and only job is to ensure he wins rugby matches.

Boyne, I'll drop an answer back soon. Gotta go do work.

Boyne,

Foley was in some quarters the popular choice to replace McGahan. The notion was that McGahan was an "outsider" and that it takes a Munsterman to lead Munster. Foley is highly regard as a coach is by all accounts a popular figure within the Munster dressing room. He is also under contract and Musnter wouldnt be willing to pay to release him.

Also, in a time when Munster needs new ideas and new influences he represents the old Munster ethos which many consider highly valuable and worth holding onto.

If there is a conflict between the pairing it is unlikely the fans or players would side with Penney. You correctly say that his only job is to win rugby games but that won't work if there is division between Foley and himself.

Im not too worried. In the second interview with Munster, Penney said that he would love to have Foley as his assistant as it will help him gain an insight into where Munster are coming from.

It sounds like another hair brained idea...only in Ireland would you get a situation where the assistant coach has more clout that the head coach.

In fairness Penny knows what he's getting himself into but its a bit of a recipe for disaster if the two don't click.

Whats the point of highering a NZ coach to do things the Munster way?

Stag- I can see what Foley represents. Something intangible, yet something to hold onto. The Muster way. Totally get that.

But, Penny is immediately under pressure to "click" with someone otherwise, well, the threat is there in Quinlan's piece.

Rodders is right in that it will be a disaster if that personal relationship doesn't take off.

I just think it's strange. A rugby club is more like a military division than a real work place. It's very hierarchical.

There needs to be one unequivocal boss and the rest need to row in behind him (or her).

If Foley decides to spit the dummy so to speak, it could set Munster rugby back YEARS.

not saying he will, but it's a hulluva risk to take, n'est pas?

I can see the worry but Foley doesn't strike me as someone to spit the dummy.

To me its no different to saying that its important that D.Humphreys and Anscombe get on well. Both have important but differnet roles in the club and work together.

Gatland and Edwards are a good example of a grouping that work to me more like a partnership than master and apprentice.

Its a risk but a low risk.

red_stag wrote:
To me its no different to saying that its important that D.Humphreys and Anscombe get on well. Both have important but differnet roles in the club and work together.

Thats a similar thing but the only thing I would say is that Humphreys is hands off and not involved in any coaching.

The odd thing here is the suggestion that Foley is more important.

Neither are ideal in my opinion.

Personally I think the buck stops with the head coach so he should have full control of his team, tactics and the coaching team beneath him.

Rodders,

Foley definitely isn't more important. However neither is Penney.

We need both AND the new backs/attack coach to gel.

I thought Penny was head coach?

If thats the case if he and Foley don't get on then Foley should get the chop.

Thats what happens everywhere else.

If Penney is under pressure to gel with Foley then there is something very wrong, it should be the other way round.

Rodders, It isn't that if him and Axel aren't pals he will get sacked.

But if there is division between them, the team will not do well and not win games.

There is as much pressure on Foley to gel with him as vice versa I would say.

Penney is head coach but he isn't necessarily more important to the team.

I think the most important coach to have been in provincial rugby in last 5 years is Jono Gibbes.

Stag he's either Foley's boss or he isn't.

If he's head coach then the pressure should be on Foley to impress his incoming head coach.

There should be nothing equal about it.

This is just typical jobs for the boys stuff that is endemic throughout Irish rugby.

Rodders, It isn't that if him and Axel aren't pals he will get sacked.

That was pretty much the implication from Quinlan.

A lot hinges on this relationship. More than the usual relationship between a head coach and their subordinates and I dont think that's fair to a guy willing to travel across the world for a job.

I dont think it's particularly fair to Munster fans either, whose reward for fantastic support should (and to be fair, probably will) be success on the field.

This is just typical jobs for the boys stuff that is endemic throughout Irish rugby.

A step further than I was willing to go with this, but you've read my mind.

red_stag wrote:Also, in a time when Munster needs new ideas and new influences he represents the old Munster ethos which many consider highly valuable and worth holding onto.

Im not too worried. In the second interview with Munster, Penney said that he would love to have Foley as his assistant as it will help him gain an insight into where Munster are coming from.

Surely the presence of POC DOC and ROG should ensure that the Munster way continues, it isnt a style its a mentality surely?

And if Penney wanted the job he was hardly going to say no to Foley if he was already in?

There is a fine line between jobs for the boys and building a strong ethos.

The likes Scarlets and Toulouse only have coaches who played for them.

Foley has been quite successful in his tenure as defense and later forwards coachs with Munster and I think he has earned his place.

I definietly do not think that its a case of Penney losing his job if he isnt liked by Foley. It is merely that to win over the Munster faithful he needs to embrace old ideas as well as new ones.

Ideally he will teach Munster new ideas. However he needs to learn what Munster is about too. Foley will help him to do that.

This is going to be like some kind of odd couple movie where they overcome all obstacles together.

Rush Hour 5 starring Rodd Penney as the eager wise cracking Kiwi who needs to learn about our ancient ways and dour Anthony Foley who hides a heart of gold behind his dull exterior.

Stag I'm not knocking Foley, I just think if a new head coach comes in he shouldn't have one hand tied behind his back... let him do his job and if he fails then give him the chop.

I think there has been a lot of emphasis on the relationship between Penney & Foley because the media all backed Foley to get the job and got it wrong, so now they are questioning this aspect of the appointment.

Bearing in mind that Penney was interviewed by a panel who would all have known Foley well, I'd say its safe to say that they would probably have known as to how he would have reacted to someone coming in over him.

Foley would have known the score and considering Penney will have been selected over him will give Penney great confidence that MR are giving him his full support.

So who's the forwards couch?

Mickado wrote:So who's the forwards couch?

Foley.
(Schmidt being head coach & backs coach is quite unusual. For instance, Cheika was a forward's coach and he had a forwards and a backs coach. McGahan had been the backs/defense coach at Munster and he had Holland & Foley as coaches).

Wow...a lot of reaction to Quinny's article in the IT. Think this is all mountain out of a molehill stuff really. In all professional sports teams there is nearly always continuity somewhere in the coaching set up so this is nothing new. ROG n POC were both consulted on the appointment so Penney must have struck some kind of a note with the senior players - so there is also a little pressure on them to assist Penney in achieving a successful dynamic when he takes over. Also, given recent retirements there are relatively few players who have actually played with Foley left in the squad.
The article was nothing more than Quinny's opinion - its no statement of fact. In the year since he retired the Munster that he knew has almost disappeared in playing terms.

As to the coaching set up - its hard to know its exact form until all appointments are made but I feel that Penney's role will be a director of rugby type role - the hands on coaching being done by Foley and whoever the new backs coach will be. Based on the interviews I have heard with some of the Kiwi commentators that type of position seems to be where his real strengths are.

I do think that People are forgetting that Foley is staying even though he was overlooked.

Others would have said "you don't want me, so can I leave and we'll call it quits."

Foley is staying so I think he will make it work too, otherwise, would munster pick him as head coach, if he didn't work with Penny and got him sacked. Us Irish hate to look foolish and that is what munster would look like if they sacked Penny and installed foley

Brendan, where would Foley go?

Well if he is good enough to take over Munster at present shorly he could go lots of places.

If he brought the Munster attitude with him maybe france would be a good place

Brendan wrote:Well if he is good enough to take over Munster at present shorly he could go lots of places.

If he brought the Munster attitude with him maybe france would be a good place

Lol. Think of the logistics though!

He's need someone to translate Munster - English and then English to French!!!

I just think he doesn't need the money and could afford to take a year out.