Omissions from SA tour party

Although i was happy overall with the squad, inparticular tom youngs, launchbury, wade, lowe, joseph, kitchener, allen and mullan

i was suprised and a bit perplexed that Attwood and Garvey have been left out.

while Parling and Palmer have done well, and Botha ,while imo isnt good enough, has consistantly been selected these players were going to tour. As already stated im pleased launchbury and kitchener have got a chance but with BOTH of Attwood and Garvey missing out there isnt an enforcer style second row, which i feel england definately need both now and in future to partner Lawes.

I can understand taking the young players for experience but for me Attwood and Garvey would have been in with Botha and Robson out. bit harsh on Robson as he has had a superb season but i dont think he is international standard, but rather like dowson: very good club player not quite able to have the same impact on an international, especially against a big SA pack.

also disappointed not too see jonny may somewhere, i was really looking forward to see more of him. For me he offers moore than strettle because he can lacerate a defence, which strettle hasnt done anywhere near enough for years now, and monye although a good player is getting on a bit now with so many young wingers coming through.

finally stevens. he was always going to go really because of his experience and he can play on both sides. but imo he plays BADLY on both sides he has been poor in the scrum for a long time, he doesnt offer much of a running game anymore and he is an absolute penalty machine at the breakdown. I would have dropped him. seeing as we are taking 4 loosehead options in Corbs, Marler, Mullan and PDJ (who can cover both and go on the bench) could we not follow the trend of launchbury kitchener etc and take Henry Thomas or Rupert Harden? actually try and find some proper TH prospect to cover Cole rather than keep sticking a nigh-on useless Stevens in!

So basically you want to replace 3 Saracens players. Nice one.

I'd agree on Stevens but so far Botha and Strettle deserve their places. I'd have brought Benjamin along though

Hooker: I would have like to have seen Jamie George involved but even though I don't rate Mears, I can see why he was included due to his experience.

Props: Good Selection but I would have had Hardin in place of Stevens as he has had a shocking season .

Second Row : Attwood and Garvey in place of Botha and Robson...need more grunt..

Back Row: Armitage in place of Dowson..

Scrum Halfs; ok

Fly Half: Burns in place of Hodgson. He is the past not the future..

Centres: Agree

Back 3: Jonnie May and Benjamin included in place of Strettle and Brown.. I know Brown has had a good season but he still lacks pace for international rugby.

Harden is injured - hence his omission
Armitage wouldnt have been available for early matches or training.
Jonnie May is unlucky.

How can you definitively say he still lacks pace in International rugby when you can only have recently seen him play a few mins of international rugby off the subs bench?

And a good season is a bit of an understatement

ChequeredJersey wrote:How can you definitively say he still lacks pace in International rugby when you can only have recently seen him play a few mins of international rugby off the subs bench?

I agree but for some reason I rate Jonny May/ Foden/ Goode even Miller above him at FB..
I have never really liked Brown and I hope I am proved wrong but it is just a gut feeling...

Attwood is a big omission for me. I'd like to see him and Lawes develop into the long term second row partnership.

May is also quite a surprise, especially given the publicity he's been getting. Only including 4 wingers is strange for a 5 match tour. JJ can cover but they should be looking to develop him into a top class 13 and not shuffle him around. Monye hasn't really done much to merit inclusion. What happened to form over reputation? Strettle is an incumbent in the test team and while offering nothing exceptional anymore, he also hasn't really done a lot to warrant being dropped from the squad.

Freddie Burns is, in my opinion, the best attacking 10 in the premiership. However he needs to learn to manage a game from the back foot. Lancaster clearly likes Hodgson so this selection isn't surprising but if I were selecting I'd have gone for Burns to play midweek and learn from the experience.

Yeah I woukdnt have brought Monye personally. May would have been a better option

seeing as we are taking 4 loosehead options in Corbs, Marler, Mullan and PDJ (who can cover both and go on the bench)

We're taking 3 looseheads and one tighthead who can cover at loosehead. PDJ is one of the top 5 tightheads in the league and a very good scrummager. I just hope he is on the bench ahead of Stevens for the tests as Stevens is woefully out of form.

I can understand taking the young players for experience but for me Attwood and Garvey would have been in with Botha and Robson out

I'd have kept Botha in there and ditched Palmer personally. Botha was good enough to take and hold the shirt during the 6N where as Palmer wasn't.

Back 3: Jonnie May and Benjamin included in place of Strettle and Brown.. I know Brown has had a good season but he still lacks pace for international rugby.

Nah, Brown has earnt his chance with the mid week team. He's strong with a massive boot and his pace has improved a lot this season. Even if he wasn't selected I'd have wanted Rob Miller over Johnny May as he is a more rounded full back than May who is questionable under the highball and not the best defensively (yet, he's got a lot of time on his side).

JJ, Lowe and Foden can all cover wing, and it's easier to fly out a new winger in case of injury than any other position...

beshocked wrote:So basically you want to replace 3 Saracens players. Nice one.

didn't actually realise at the time they were all saracens. not that that matters in the slighest.

im a worcester fan and i have no rivalry with saracens, we have opponents nearer us in the league table to worry about.

and if you read my OP properly you would realise i highlighted robson to drop out as well.

I don't like the idea of playing guys out of position or 'covering'. These are all specialised positions. Unless we are using genuine utility players or people who are equally adept in similar positions eg 10/12 or 12/13. In this case it is just planning to play people out of position. Foden is 100% a fullback, he has played very little on the wing. In case of injury during a match it would be an acceptable compromise but not from the start of any game. Likewise Lowe is a centre, he has performed superbly there for Harlequins and would be unlikely to show his full potential being forced to learn the systems for a number of positions and shuffled around. Players need to be allowed to play and thrive in their best positions.

miller is unlucky as well as he has been on form and is young. however in his way there is foden and brown who has had an even better season and probably deserves his chance.

alex goode hasn't been as good as in previous years, but like miller can cover 10 as well. and is probably due a chance after being left out over the last couple of seasons so im glad he has got a chance

jeffwinger

i agree that shuffling players around isnt ideal at all and players are unlikely to produce their best if shoved into an unfamiliar position, but the limited number of players amkes some sort of 'covering' a necessity really. its always going to be like that when players are on the other side of the world and its understandable from Lancaster, and probably a smart move. hopefully players will get their chance to play in their best positions and only be covering if there are injuries

on Benjamin: having seen him play a lot i was hopeful he would be included but in fairness he doesnt get much chance to shine at sixways and while its disappointing to see him leave i hope he will thrive with better players around him at welford road. we could see him pushing next season. for this tour I would have liked to see him in place of monye because they are similar but miles is younger. i suppose monye is experienced and has played very well in SA before, and has had a pretty solid season in a winning team, and played a lot with JTH and Lowe

mattraven I get that, I know it is an inevitable part of touring. My point is more that with the freedom afforded by selecting a large squad, we should be able to minimise this necessity. My worry with this selection is that a quality player like Lowe or JJ may be forced into an unfamiliar position and struggle against tough opposition, then be confined to the scrapheap for the foreseeable future. We have witnessed this alot over recent years.

Understand why given the T14 season, but disappointed we've got no Armitage.

Find our 12 options a bit "samey". Would have liked to see someone like Twelvetrees whose distribution COULD be fantastic with regular time at 12. Barritt/JTH/Allen offer pretty much the same.

Is Trinder still injured?

Attwood. I'm biased, but as the season's gone on, he's been playing better and better. Notable lack of grunt in Bath's row without him there.

4 Wingers is enough. If someone gets injured they can fly a replacement out. Monye though is lucky to be on the plane.

Attwood has had a tough season, but can still think himslef unlucky not to be going. Garvey had 40 mins (I think) for the Saxons and has not been looked at since. I guess they did not like what they saw.

I think Allen and Barritt are rather different options though I agree on JTH. 36 or his ilk would be nice as a possibility

jeffwinge
r
yep hopefully the likes of jj don't go down the road of a hook or ruan pienaar. not that these players havnt had great careers but you have to wonder what might have been if for example hook had played at 10 for the last 4 years.

unfortunately the only way is to wait and see i suppose. sometimes i think it could be prudent to play players out of their primary position in their first few games eg. wilko on the wing i thinkand carter at 12 but doing this has probably ruined as many careers as its helped.

hopefully with hindsight we will see lancaster makes the right call. he seems like a smart selector so hopefully the young players will benefit rather than lose confidence

bathmad

i would also like to see 12trees in the mix at some point, but to be honest i dont think he has done enough yet to be included. the bottom line is that allen has forced his way above him for the tigers. hopefully at glaws he can develop his game and fufill the obvious potential

Attwood has had a tough season, but can still think himslef unlucky not to be going. Garvey had 40 mins (I think) for the Saxons and has not been looked at since. I guess they did not like what they saw.

I'm guessing something must have happened at half time or away from the cameras in the first half as it looked as though Garvey was having a really good game and in line for man of the match (which was taken by Robson in the end). Bizarre.

Monye's quite a bold choice. He will probably pushing the age envelope if you look forward to 2015, and his form in the early part of the season wasn't brilliant. He's bulked up a bit in his upper body and it appeared to be affecting his balance. He is still coming back from a minor injury picked up against Tigers, too.

However, his last few games have been much better and he has performed well internationally and in South Africa. He's also big, physical and works hard, so it may be that he's there as a challenger to Ashton.

Ugo Monye also offers an additional kicking option in the back 3.
Ashton and Strettle dont really offer much in that department. He also has a good relationship with Brown.

Relax though guys, he is probably only going to feature in the mid week games, Wade on the other wing. Like I said with Brown starting at 15 and Alex Goode covering on the bench.

That's a pretty varied and handy back 3 for the midweekers- 2 kickers, Monye and Brown covering Wade's perceived weakness in defence, all good attackers in very different ways

Would this be a good team: -

Wood
Lindsey
Thomas
Attwood
Lawes
Amitage
Woods
Croft
Simpson
Burns
Twelvetrees
Trinder
May
Benjamin
Miller

Of the above some are injured and some not selected.

Garvey is not in, but I do think he is a possible and has been passed over.

good combination there in that it will help wade to have monyes experience on the other wing, and brown is a safe player with a big boot. it would be a real shame if wade was succesfully targeted defensively so hopefully this lineup would help him.

i really want wade to do well, i could definately see him being nailed on by 2015, and even as soon as a year or so i think he could be seriously challanging. for 2015 i would say the wingers might be out of wade, may, ashton and sharples as the ones really pushing each other, although the likes of benjamin and young yarde might have something to say about that

From those that are selected the mid weekers are likely to be -

Marler
T.Youngs
PDJ
Robson
Kitchener
Fearns
Johnson
Waldrom
Care
Hodgeson
Ugo Monye
A.Allen
J.Joseph
Wade
Brown

Bench of -
Grey, Mullan, Launchberry, Dowson, Youngs, Lowe, A.Goode

That should give most of the squad a game if you exclude all the guys likely to start in the tests and add a few that might be in the test matchday squads.

Frankly the midweek backs look more dangerous than the test side!

Monye is there to cover FB.





....just joking. I guess he's there for his experience.

Attwood seems to have dropped off the radar. Jonno had him pencilled in before he was suspended (Attwood, not Jonno).

Another one to consider in terms of the back 3 selection is James Simpson-Daniel. Yes it is widely accepted that his time has passed, during which he was unfortunate with injuries and sometimes criminally overlooked.

However, need it really be the case that his time is up?

This has been highlighted by the selection of Ugo Monye, only 10 months Sinbad's junior, in the same position. While injuries have again taken their toll on JSD, this year he has still been one of the most dangerous attacking threats in the league. His form this year has been as good as ever, he was instrumental in big wins over Harlequins and Toulouse. Over the last couple of years he has added some bulk, negating the arguments of those who say he is too lightweight for the international game, while maintaining his searing acceleration, magical footwork and the best eye for a mismatch I have ever seen. His defence has never been an issue in my eyes either. He may not bring much of a kicking game, but neither do Strettle or Ashton.

There are others in the squad of a similar age to him (Waldrom, Palmer, Tom Johnson) and players have played at world cups when far older than JSD will be in 2015.

So why is Simpson-Daniel too old for selection?

Is JSD too old, or too injury prone? Nearly every time he's been on the verge of breaking into the squad before, he's ended up injured.

Monye's been coming back from injury this season, but he's been playing for 10 years and I think this is his first big injury break. If Sinbad had stayed fit, he'd probably be a nailed on starter, but it would be a big chance to take now.

This is the perception. But he is not as injury prone as it may seem. He has just been unlucky with the timing of his injuries, putting him out of contention for pretty much every England squad over the last few years. However he has played 257 games (started 234) for Gloucester in 12 seasons. Averaging over 20 games a season is not the reflection of a player who can't be relied upon to stay fit for the duration of a 3 week tour.

Omissions!!!!!!!

Where the is James Fitzpatrick!!!

On a serious note...Garvey must have done something...his continued absence along with Attwoods is mystifying....yet Stevens constant selection...is even more!

RSA beat England up the last time they played at Twickenham, autumn 2010 as I recall, Lancaster appears to have put this FACT to one side. Enforcers Garvey and particularly Attwood will be massively missed.

I PREDICT BOTH PLAYERS WILL HAVE BIG 2012/3 SEASONS under new managements.

Strettle is a ducking joke. With the greatest of respect to Tom Biggs how in the name of TRY SCORING (for thats what their there for) is Strettle being selected?

I mention Biggs because he is an excellent example of an very good AP player who consistently performs with wet sails yet will never really be international quality, and yet an underperforming non try scoring underachiever who is not half the player Biggs is will start for England. Utter bloody madness!!!! This better be the last time hes selected.

I thought Moyne picked up a nasty knock last time out? If he dosnt make it then there maybe a place for May or another yet.

The selection of Graham Kitchener is a travesty. He has barely appeared this season for Leicester and his last appearance was at the beginning of March.

So much for picking players on form.

as a Bath fan Attwood has been one of our better players this season and deserves to be in there, whilst from what i've seen of Garvey, has been most impressive - powerful ball carrier, with a high workrate in defence - he should have been called up for sure.

I would have left Palmer and Kitchener out brought in Attwood and Garvey.

I was surprised by Kitchener's selection, but perhaps should not have been.

Firstly there are 4 players ahead of him on the squad, and secondly he was a Lancaster favourite from Saxons days.

Personally I would've left Palmer and Botha out and taken Attwood, Garvey and Launchbury as the more physical locks (in that order) and then Parling, Robson and Kitchener (again that order) as the line out specialists. That way there are two serious contenders fighting for the starting shirt in each position with two youngsters there developing with the midweek side.

I dont like Brown. He butchered that try attempt vs Wales in the 6N.

He failed to properly draw any cover defence before passing to strettle.

Why would i forgive him that?

Draw and pass should be second nature to any England player.

and he's too slow.

Brown hasn't been given a big chance at international yet. His longest spell was against Ireland when the game was as good as won. I know the pressure was off then, but he looked very good imo.

I agree about Biggs. He rarely gets a mention despite being a very good winger.

If you disregard players on the basis of single mistakes, then you have grounds to disregard every player ever and you end up with situations like Allen's idiotic removal from the England set up. In short, you become Andy Robinson, it's a really really shortsighted and narrow-minded way of rating players

ChequeredJersey wrote:If you disregard players on the basis of single mistakes, then you have grounds to disregard every player ever and you end up with situations like Allen's idiotic removal from the England set up. In short, you become Andy Robinson, it's a really really shortsighted and narrow-minded way of rating players

Unless of course you never rated them in the first place and their c*ck ups only confirm you pre existing beliefs. AR selected and then dropped players. I wouldnt do that. I wouldnt select Brown

Fair enough. I hope and beloved that Brown will prove you wrong but you are entitled to your own opinion

with brown the problem for me is that i dont think he has the xfactor that foden has, and this means foden would always be my first choice.

while brown would be my second choice, and would start games if midweek or if foden is rested or injured, i dont think he could turn a game in the same way foden can.

he wouldn't be a weakness by any means, but neither would he be a gamebreaker on the international circuit, like he maybe is for quins at the lower level of the Aviva Premiership

if foden were non-existant i could see him getting a career with 30 starts or so for england, but imo foden will always be ahead unless brown adds something special

Brown is off a fantastic season and has to be involved. May is not a sound FB, similar with Miller although less so.

How Stevens gets in any squad is beyond me. After Cole & PDJ our TH berth looks very thin.

Brown has a good boot and is sound at the back.

that is worth a fair bit. he is a solid back up to Foden and in the absence of anyone else getting ahead of him he can ride pine.

as soon as a better FB comes along though i'd drop him like a stone.

Really harsh on Brown, he's been outstanding most of the season. You obviously have a dislike for him (I'm in a similar vein about Farrell)

I think Brown deserves his call up as he has noticeably worked to improve the weaknesses in his play and has shown that he is a very good fb. Whether that will be enough I don't know, I certainly agree that Foden just has something more about him than Brown which is unusual as I normally prefer my fbs to be able to kick and Brown is a lot better at that than Foden. This is THE TOUR for Brown, if he doesn't show up well now then I think Goode and Miller will catch and over take him. Both have superb kicking games, are additional play makers and their counter attacking skills are evolving to be similar quality to Foden.

There's also the prospect of Tait re-emerging from the woodwork and offering another great running threat from fb as well as Ransom and Watson impressing for the under 20s. A good tour for Brown now could secure him an England jersey and a few caps over the next year or two.

what the hell is the matter with tait?

did getting picked then dropped by AR really crush him to the extent that he is forgotten altogether?

no - he made THAT run 2007 RWC final.
but what else?

Has Matthew Tait wasted his talent or was he never very good?

He's been injured a fair bit hasn't he?