Omissions from SA tour party

First topic message reminder :

Although i was happy overall with the squad, inparticular tom youngs, launchbury, wade, lowe, joseph, kitchener, allen and mullan

i was suprised and a bit perplexed that Attwood and Garvey have been left out.

while Parling and Palmer have done well, and Botha ,while imo isnt good enough, has consistantly been selected these players were going to tour. As already stated im pleased launchbury and kitchener have got a chance but with BOTH of Attwood and Garvey missing out there isnt an enforcer style second row, which i feel england definately need both now and in future to partner Lawes.

I can understand taking the young players for experience but for me Attwood and Garvey would have been in with Botha and Robson out. bit harsh on Robson as he has had a superb season but i dont think he is international standard, but rather like dowson: very good club player not quite able to have the same impact on an international, especially against a big SA pack.

also disappointed not too see jonny may somewhere, i was really looking forward to see more of him. For me he offers moore than strettle because he can lacerate a defence, which strettle hasnt done anywhere near enough for years now, and monye although a good player is getting on a bit now with so many young wingers coming through.

finally stevens. he was always going to go really because of his experience and he can play on both sides. but imo he plays BADLY on both sides he has been poor in the scrum for a long time, he doesnt offer much of a running game anymore and he is an absolute penalty machine at the breakdown. I would have dropped him. seeing as we are taking 4 loosehead options in Corbs, Marler, Mullan and PDJ (who can cover both and go on the bench) could we not follow the trend of launchbury kitchener etc and take Henry Thomas or Rupert Harden? actually try and find some proper TH prospect to cover Cole rather than keep sticking a nigh-on useless Stevens in!

Has Matthew Tait wasted his talent or was he never very good?

Extremely talented but never settled on a position and to be fair chose badly when leaving Newcaslte. Sale were never going to offer him the front foot ball to show case his talents and the continual defence at Quins led to shoulder issues which caused them to release him this time last year. Tigers took him on board and mended the shoulder but being the sick note he is he managed to injure his groin muscle in a warm up during the 6N period and despite showing hints of some real form he missed nearly all of the season. Is now training hard with Louis Deacon and Jordan Crane to be ready for next season.

If i had half his talent i'd make twice as much of it.

Outrageous

Triangulation wrote:Brown has a good boot and is sound at the back.

that is worth a fair bit. he is a solid back up to Foden and in the absence of anyone else getting ahead of him he can ride pine.

as soon as a better FB comes along though i'd drop him like a stone.

Topical- http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/11/mike-brown-harlequins-england

Mike Brown is class ....end of. We are in a position of having two top class full backs...

And some more waiting in line too

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Has Matthew Tait wasted his talent or was he never very good?

Extremely talented but never settled on a position and to be fair chose badly when leaving Newcaslte. Sale were never going to offer him the front foot ball to show case his talents and the continual defence at Quins led to shoulder issues which caused them to release him this time last year. Tigers took him on board and mended the shoulder but being the sick note he is he managed to injure his groin muscle in a warm up during the 6N period and despite showing hints of some real form he missed nearly all of the season. Is now training hard with Louis Deacon and Jordan Crane to be ready for next season.

The other bad decision was when he listened to people demanding he bulk up. He ended with a physique and muscles that his frame could not cope with.

what is all this chat about Brown not having the X-factor and only being a solid reliable full back?

A couple of these people on these boards, don't watch enough rugby! He most definitely has the X-factor. He has single handedly won games for Quins this season, through exceptional try saving tackles and has been on hand to score a number of impressive match winning tries.

He is absolutely gas, has a huge boot. He's extremely reliable in defence, with his flawless positioning and impressive cover tackling. Whilst in attack he hits nice lines, draws in defenders and exploits space out wide.

In my opinion with Foden's poor six nations form and rather quiet season to his standards he'll be lucky to keep his place ahead of the industrious Brown.

Was Fodens form poor though?

Or was it just our rather limited attacking game and Farrel at 10...didnt allow much for the likes of Ashton and foden to shine..like they did previously.

Hopefully the next stage of Lancasters vision will be to open up a little more with catt giving more opportunities for Foden and Ashton to get involved.

But in the Brown v Foden arguement...i would be confident with either of them at 15....

I think Jonny May could have been left out because he was involved in a Gloucester side that basically quit. This raises questions about his character, which he'll have to answer next season, not to mention his form (which from what I saw looked pretty ropey).

When I saw May, Trinder and Sharples and Burns being interviewed on the rugby club they came across as pretty immature, and SL will be looking for strong characters. May not be the only Gloucester player who suffered because of their collapse. Who was prepared to step up and take responsibility?

DaveM wrote:I think Jonny May could have been left out because he was involved in a Gloucester side that basically quit. This raises questions about his character, which he'll have to answer next season, not to mention his form (which from what I saw looked pretty ropey).

When I saw May, Trinder and Sharples and Burns being interviewed on the rugby club they came across as pretty immature, and SL will be looking for strong characters. May not be the only Gloucester player who suffered because of their collapse. Who was prepared to step up and take responsibility?

You know i think you've made a very interesting comment there.

yeah thats actually not a bad shout at all.

what happened on the rugby club interview?

DaveM wrote:I think Jonny May could have been left out because he was involved in a Gloucester side that basically quit. This raises questions about his character, which he'll have to answer next season, not to mention his form (which from what I saw looked pretty ropey).

When I saw May, Trinder and Sharples and Burns being interviewed on the rugby club they came across as pretty immature, and SL will be looking for strong characters. May not be the only Gloucester player who suffered because of their collapse. Who was prepared to step up and take responsibility?

That's a excellent point.

Triangulation wrote:Brown has a good boot and is sound at the back.

that is worth a fair bit. he is a solid back up to Foden and in the absence of anyone else getting ahead of him he can ride pine.

as soon as a better FB comes along though i'd drop him like a stone.

Brown completley outplaying Foden so far....

mattraven wrote:yeah thats actually not a bad shout at all.

what happened on the rugby club interview?

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,12610_7558359,00.html

Nothing, I think it was the nature of the questions more than anything. Just four young lads.

gotta say brown was far more noticable and had a bigger impact on the semi-final...

mattraven wrote:gotta say brown was far more noticable and had a bigger impact on the semi-final...

I watched highlights last night and i'd agree with that from what i saw and guess what?

I'd still have Foden at fullback for England every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Had Foden been playing for Quins i'm sure he would have had a wonderful game.

Brown is a handy bench warmer provided he can cover wing. If it is felt that he cant then he shouldnt be in the 22.

Brown completley outplaying Foden so far....

Having watched both Semi Finals I'd say that Alex Goode was the pick of the bunch and had he been wearing green, red and white he may have snuck the motm, by far Sarries best player. Selection will be interesting.

Slightly unfair comments regarding May, Trinder, Sharples and Burns. That interview was from before the away game at Leicester, while Gloucester were playing well and had just beaten Toulouse and Quins in quick succession with impressive performances. The idea of the interview was to paint them as young and carefree, mirroring their style of play at the time.

It is unfair to blame the young guys for the team's failings over the last few weeks. The problem was a lack of leadership as a lot of the senior players (Narraway, Tindall, Strokosch, EFS, S.Lawson, R.Lawson) were on their way out of the club and had lost a bit of commitment.

From what I know and have seen of the four players mentioned, they come across as extremely focused rugby players. Jonny May is perhaps the exception as he is known to be a bit dull at times, but he is probably the most naturally talented of the group so it balances out. I agree SL will be looking for players with the right intangible qualities, but I have seen nothing to suggest these four players are lacking.

Sharples and Trinder have been injured a lot recently and were both playing unfit towards the end of the season. May has been out of position since Olly Morgan's injury - he is not yet a fullback. Burns is in his first season as a starting 10 and has been struggling behind a disinterested pack and a pair of average 9s in Lewis and Runciman. Give them a break. I'll be surprised if they aren't all involved with the national team over the next few seasons.