King Great Lancaster Bombs Twelvetrees

Short but sweet.

Of all the non selections excluding the most talented English back of his generation is an absolute traversty. I accept the selections of Barritt and Farrell however there is no other player that offers the portfolio of Twelvetrees, None!

Twelvetrees must incite some kind of coach jealousy as both Cockerill and now Lancaster have passed him over!

Which other player could have replaced Flood with such aplomb in last weekends game and yet may do so again on Saturday. And is infact and inside Centre not a half!!!

Sorry Anthony Allen ypu are not as good as Twelvetrees, though good you are.

England cannot afford to make such desperate selection errors.

At the moment I'd have Allen over Twelvetrees all day long. So I must be as jealous as Cockerill and Lancaster.

However I also think he'd be much better off with a full pre-season with Gloucester than he would playing a bit part in the tour to SA.

It is a little odd though when players like Kitchener are brought straight in though and they are def not first choice either for their clubs.

I'd have taken 36, he offers a very interesting alternative to the crashball 12's and has the physicality to get right up in the saffas faces. Would have been a perfect midweeker.

Kitchener will be at best a mid-week bench player (unless injuries). He's also settled into the club. Twelvetrees will be starting/on the bench for the mid-week team and will miss most of pre-season with a new club. Pre-season is very important for non-settled players. I'd rather not bring any of them unless they were 1st choice players with little experienced back up. I'd have possibly left Ashton behind, although he's coming into form and it might be better for him to play with England again.

I am very surprised Twelvetrees hasn't been picked. He's the type of player who would really thrive in the international set up. He's a game changer as well who can play various positions. I reckon any other international team would have picked him...

As an outsider I can understand why he has not been selected.

6 centres are named - are they all better than 36 as centres - YES
3 fly halfs are named - are they all better than 36 as 10's - YES

He needs to be good enough to be there as a player in one position imv.

ahhh yesssssss as promising as he looks he is heading for the "good bench option/utility player" scrap heap.

what is his best position then? 12 or 10 or is that still to be decided?

Definitely 12!

Another possible reason is that Barritt is the man in possession and Lancaster has picked two further 12s who offer a little bit of variation but primarily are there because they can fit into the same style of game.

Twelvetrees is a different type of player and using him would necessitate getting a young and inexperienced squad to play a different style of game mid-tour in one of the most hostile rugby environments. Not likely to work.

36's time may come when the team is more settled and has enough experience of changing gameplans to be able to adapt to a different style.

He's a game changer as well who can play various positions

Not really a game changer. If you give Billy quality ball then he will inflict damage on the opposition regularly with his flat play and excellent distribution. The problem lies with what he does when he doesn't have quality ball and the answer there is sadly, not a lot.

Barritt and Allen are both work horses defensively and just get through more work in that area than Twelvetrees but both can make a bit of ground in the loose. JTH is a reliable carrier in the tight with his pace and power. Those selections indicate that Lancaster expects his pack to be in a battle and the ball available to be slowed down and defensive traffic to be heavy. Had we been playing Oz then I think the frankly average JTH would have been dropped and Billy with his wealth of attacking options would have come in as a more open game where our pack will gain better ball would suit him far better.

Agree with that Sam.

Hopefully 36 will play well for Glos and we'll see him in the AI's.

You never know, if Saracens upset the apple cart tomorrow he could be turning out against the baa baa's too.

He definitely won't be picked now he's at Glos. Watch Morgan disappear off the scene.

For Gloucester he will be played continuously at 12 I hope and this problem will be sorted

Though I'd take him BECAUSE he is a utility back. I like Utility backs. SL's England and especially bench selections imply that he does not

Twelvetrees is not the most talented English back of his generation.

So which player should be dropped to accomodate him in the squad ???

HammerofThunor wrote:Kitchener will be at best a mid-week bench player (unless injuries). He's also settled into the club. Twelvetrees will be starting/on the bench for the mid-week team and will miss most of pre-season with a new club. Pre-season is very important for non-settled players. I'd rather not bring any of them unless they were 1st choice players with little experienced back up. I'd have possibly left Ashton behind, although he's coming into form and it might be better for him to play with England again.

To be honest though, I'd rather Ashton had as little time training with Sarries as possible. Look at what it did to Strettle...

if all the hype is to be believed, then this was the year he should have nailed himself onto the 12 shirt at the Tigers.

instead we find him going to gloucester.

these are the facts and for me they say it all. yes he has shown potential but he has not fufilled it yet, or come close, which is why he is having to move from arguably the strongest club in the country to Gloucester, another great club but one in a fairly turbulent period over the last few years.

this doesnt mean i dont think he should have been selected for the tour, he is young and promising enough to have gone, but i completely understand why he has been left out, andimo there are far bigger ommisions such as Attwood and Garvey.

36 needs to have a stellar season at glaws playing 12 week in week out before we talk about him as a potential starter

EnglishReign wrote:He definitely won't be picked now he's at Glos. Watch Morgan disappear off the scene.

I'm amazed Morgan's been picked, but apparently Lancaster forgot he was joining Glaws!

On a serious note, I'm not surprised 36 isn't in the squad. When you look at the dynamics of the squad there are 2 FHs who can play 12, so clearly Lancaster felt there was no need to have additional numbers here... or have players that can pass the ball

Though I'd take him BECAUSE he is a utility back. I like Utility backs. SL's England and especially bench selections imply that he does not

Alex Goode (10,15 and at a push 12) and Joseph (11,13,14) have gone as the utility back options with 3 specialised 12s in the squad.

So which player should be dropped to accomodate him in the squad ???

To be honest I'd see JTH dropped no problem at all but clearly he is a tactical choice by Lancaster who is opting for players who are tough defensively and can organise a backline in defence. Twelvetrees ticks the first box but not really the second.

HongKongCherry wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:He definitely won't be picked now he's at Glos. Watch Morgan disappear off the scene.

I'm amazed Morgan's been picked, but apparently Lancaster forgot he was joining Glaws!

On a serious note, I'm not surprised 36 isn't in the squad. When you look at the dynamics of the squad there are 2 FHs who can play 12, so clearly Lancaster felt there was no need to have additional numbers here... or have players that can pass the ball

Agree with you HKC. Not remotely surprised about Twelvetrees not touring, but his time will come.

I would have omitted Allen.

It is to Cockerills shame that he failed to understand and realise TTs talent over the last 24 months. I do think he has learnt as a coach from the experience and believe this will be of benefit to George Ford as he will be given opportunity now sooner than Cockerills arch conservitism would have otherwise allowed.

Will Greenwood will always be the obvious parallel and it is of note that he too felt confined at Leicester. However I think more interesting is the realisation that TT will be a better player than Greenwood which is incredibly exciting from an English perspective.

TTs is the most talented Back of his generation and anyone who doubts this really does not understand the difference a worldclass 12 makes too a 15 man attack lead game plan. Martin Johnson never ever understood this and I actually think few in English rugby do.

I offer you imagination excitment and success, TTs is that future..

kingelderfield wrote:I would have omitted Allen.

It is to Cockerills shame that he failed to understand and realise TTs talent over the last 24 months. I do think he has learnt as a coach from the experience and believe this will be of benefit to George Ford as he will be given opportunity now sooner than Cockerills arch conservitism would have otherwise allowed.

Will Greenwood will always be the obvious parallel and it is of note that he too felt confined at Leicester. However I think more interesting is the realisation that TT will be a better player than Greenwood which is incredibly exciting from an English perspective.

TTs is the most talented Back of his generation and anyone who doubts this really does not understand the difference a worldclass 12 makes too a 15 man attack lead game plan. Martin Johnson never ever understood this and I actually think few in English rugby do.

I offer you imagination excitment and success, TTs is that future..

Nah, not convinced, sorry king.

He's incredibly inconsistent and despite all the talk of his flat passing, which is sometimes great off both hands, he is also one of few players i know in the Prem who seems to fairly regularly throw the ball either nowhere near his teammate or off the pitch entirely. He's chucked some real dross about in a few games and until he irons out that side of his game, he'll never make an international.

Also - he's big(ish) and his pace is ok, but neither are exceptional qualities. Pass - sometimes excellent, occasionally awful, Kicking - from hand, same as passing, but good range, from the tee it's so-so, Running - average, Power - ok, Defence, ok. He looks like he should be the real deal but when you add up the sum of the parts, he's a little underwhelming for me.

I'd love a passing, running, physical 12. I'm just not sure we've found it in TT. Our best all-rounder perhaps, but does he do anything to a high enough standard for international rugby?

I can understand why a few people are upset that certain players have not been included in the tour to SA.

But in my opinion Lancaster wants to see how these uncap players go on first. And then he may well include the players that did not make it this around in the Autum internationals.

So i would not be too disapointed right now.

kingelderfield wrote:I would have omitted Allen.

It is to Cockerills shame that he failed to understand and realise TTs talent over the last 24 months. I do think he has learnt as a coach from the experience and believe this will be of benefit to George Ford as he will be given opportunity now sooner than Cockerills arch conservitism would have otherwise allowed.

Will Greenwood will always be the obvious parallel and it is of note that he too felt confined at Leicester. However I think more interesting is the realisation that TT will be a better player than Greenwood which is incredibly exciting from an English perspective.

TTs is the most talented Back of his generation and anyone who doubts this really does not understand the difference a worldclass 12 makes too a 15 man attack lead game plan. Martin Johnson never ever understood this and I actually think few in English rugby do.

I offer you imagination excitment and success, TTs is that future..

Having heard a player so over hyped in a long while.

'Most talented back of his generation'.... please please return to the real world - thats plain daft.

You must be Billys mum

I think the best thing for Twelvetrees would be to enjoy a good pre season at Gloucester, establish himself as their first choice 12. Then the cherry and whites will have a very exciting backline and if they go well, most of the team will be challenging for England honours in no time...

09. Lewis
10. Burns
11. Sharples
12. Twelvetrees
13. Trinder
14. Sharples
15. Morgan

robshaw4england wrote:I think the best thing for Twelvetrees would be to enjoy a good pre season at Gloucester, establish himself as their first choice 12. Then the cherry and whites will have a very exciting backline and if they go well, most of the team will be challenging for England honours in no time...

09. Lewis Cowan
10. Burns
11. Sharples
12. Twelvetrees
13. Trinder
14. Sharples JSD/May
15. Morgan

I agree with you. The way Lancaster will set up the team(s) the best 36 could hope for would be midweek bench, as in common with most coaches Lancaster prefers consistency over occasional brilliance. 36 is talented. It is a shame he chose to leave Tigers - but some of the hyperbole is rather silly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Twelvetrees and Trinder form a decent partnership for the Saxons in the 2011 Churchill Cup? They seemed to work well together, so with Burns at 10 and Gloucester's back three they should be a very dangerous backline. It will be interesting to see if Gloucester will strengthen their pack. Ben Morgan and Jimmy Cowan are also both great signings for them.

If Gloucester can secure quick ball next season they are going to be deadly in the backs.

I was reading in the rugby paper a list of players that were being focussued on by lancaster for development with potential to be england stars....what worried me and the guy writing the article is that 36 wasn't on the list.

I just watched Twelvetrees playing at pivot against bath and he was very very good, very flat, always on the gain line, perfectly wieghted passes and he's a big big fellow. Unfortunately he had to leave leicester to get regular starting time in one postion.

My fear is that for some reason lancaster doesn't think 12trees has anything to offer his england team...IMO with regular starts at 12 for gloucester he could be the missing ingredient to get the england team firing. Flood, 12 trees, tuilagi.....thats a formidable combo !

He reminds me of Like Mccalister.

Hopefully he'll get plenty of game time at 12 for Glos and then force his way into the AI's sguad or the 6N's

sirtidychris wrote:I was reading in the rugby paper a list of players that were being focussued on by lancaster for development with potential to be england stars....what worried me and the guy writing the article is that 36 wasn't on the list.

I just watched Twelvetrees playing at pivot against bath and he was very very good, very flat, always on the gain line, perfectly wieghted passes and he's a big big fellow. Unfortunately he had to leave leicester to get regular starting time in one postion.

My fear is that for some reason lancaster doesn't think 12trees has anything to offer his england team...IMO with regular starts at 12 for gloucester he could be the missing ingredient to get the england team firing. Flood, 12 trees, tuilagi.....thats a formidable combo !

He was the preferred 12 for the Saxons during last year's 6N games, the Chruchill Cup and this year's 6N games, so I'd be very surprised if Lancaster doesn't have a reasonably high regard of him.

Of course 36 will get game time next season, Glaws have "guaranteed" him a starting 12 spot

HongKongCherry wrote:Of course 36 will get game time next season, Glaws have "guaranteed" him a starting 12 spot

Or Bryan Redpath did.

kingelderfield wrote:However I think more interesting is the realisation that TT will be a better player than Greenwood which is incredibly exciting from an English perspective.

Who realised that?

Hood83 wrote:
Nah, not convinced, sorry king.

Also - he's big(ish) and his pace is ok, but neither are exceptional qualities. Pass - sometimes excellent, occasionally awful, Kicking - from hand, same as passing, but good range, from the tee it's so-so, Running - average, Power - ok, Defence, ok. He looks like he should be the real deal but when you add up the sum of the parts, he's a little underwhelming for me.

I'd love a passing, running, physical 12. I'm just not sure we've found it in TT. Our best all-rounder perhaps, but does he do anything to a high enough standard for international rugby?

Well, shall we do the same comparison for the 3 ICs in the squad? They all featured yesterday, and were all pretty anonymous.

Size? Twelvetrees is a smilar size to Barritt and JTH and can certainly 'truck it up'. He's bigger than Allen and will win collisons Allen would lose.

Pace: I'd say Twelvetrees is probably the quickest of the 4. He doesn't have outstanding pace, but he's certainly quick enough for 12.

Long passing: Twelvetrees is miles ahead of the other 3. If he occasionally misplaces a pass perhaps this is because he's more ambitious in what he tries to achieve.

Variety of passing/ability to run an attacking game: 36 is an increasing accomplished FH, with as I recall with the Observer match reporter from the Bath game last week describing his performance as 'masterful'. That's not a word which will ever be associated with the other 3. Billy is miles ahead in this regard.

Kicking from hand: Billy kicks further than any other EQed player. His FH experience means he also has a nice driven kick. The others have no kicking game worthy of the name.

Kicking from tee: Twelvetrees is a credible back-up kicking option. The others are not.

Tackling: I wouldn't say there was much in this between the 4 of them. Billy tackles hard and competes for the ball well.

Ability to organise a defence: I'd expect Billy, who has only played a fraction of the gametime at 12 of the others, may still have things to learn. But he will learn, and I don't think Cockerill or Glioucester would have wanted him in their sides at 12 if this was a major weakness.

So, Billy is outstanding as a kicking 12, in terms of his passing and his creativity. He also has more than sufficient physical presence. For me it's the other 3 who are a bit underwhelming. Allen is an intelligent player but doesn't have the skills or the physicality Twelvetrees brings, and the other two are one dimensional (although I am intrigued as to whether Barritt will look better coached by Catt than Farrell).

English rugby is developing a glut of exciting running outside backs. The question is whether they can find a 10/12 combo that will be able to release them. Twelvetrees is our best chance at 12. If he doesn't manage to establish himself we may have to wait for Hill and Mills.

According to the official AP website:

Barritt is 6'1" & 15st
Allen is 5'11" & 14st4lb
JTH is 6'0" & 15st10lb
Twelvetrees is 6'3" & 15st10lb



Barritt/Allen/JTH/Twelvetrees in the AP this season:

Matches 16/12/20/16
Tries 3/1/2/5
Try Assists 3/0/1/6
Kicks 11/8/0/23
Passes 106/47/82/99
Carries 97/85/147/113
Metres Carried 205/295/477/366
Clean Breaks 5/4/7/6
Offloads 9/13/21/4
Defenders Beaten 13/15/29/17
Tackles 142/73/116/90
Missed Tackles 12/13/22/11
Turnovers Conceded 8/7/18/11


In considering the players' stats it's to be remembered that aside from Twelvetrees the players featured exclusively at 12 and started (you could argue Barritt & Farrell mixed roles in midfield, but from the games I saw Barritt principally played the inside channel). Twelvetrees played 10, 12, 13 and came on as a replacement for a number of of his matches.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html

We are very much looking forward to seeing Billy Thirtysix playing at Kingsholm next season, alongside some very exciting young backs, who I think will produce some scintillating spectaculars. Watch this space next season.

Twelvetrees needs a full season playing 12, only, for Gloucester.
If he does that and plays well then he will be ready to hold his own in the International set up.

Until he is a clubs first choice 12 I can't see that happening.

Stlowe interesting stats.

Barritt looks to be best defender by far and least yielding in regards to turnovers (proportionally). Poor metres carried in proportion to carries but 2nd best tries and assists in one of the least attacking sides in the AP.

Twelvetrees has the most tries and assists. His other stats are balanced. Worse tackler than Barritt but better than the other two.Does well in most stats.

JTH tops the attacking stats like offloads,defenders beaten,clean breaks and metres made but has missed the most tackles and conceded the most turnovers by some distance. Less tries and assists by both Twelvetrees and Barritt.

Allen's stats don't stack up well. His tackling stats look woeful. Especially when comparing to Barritt. His turnovers is the least but bear in mind he has played less games. Poor try and assists stat.

beshocked wrote:Stlowe interesting stats.

Barritt looks to be best defender by far and least yielding in regards to turnovers (proportionally). Poor metres carried in proportion to carries but 2nd best tries and assists in one of the least attacking sides in the AP.

Twelvetrees has the most tries and assists. His other stats are balanced. Worse tackler than Barritt but better than the other two.Does well in most stats.

JTH tops the attacking stats like offloads,defenders beaten,clean breaks and metres made but has missed the most tackles and conceded the most turnovers by some distance. Less tries and assists by both Twelvetrees and Barritt.

Allen's stats don't stack up well. His tackling stats look woeful. Especially when comparing to Barritt. His turnovers is the least but bear in mind he has played less games. Poor try and assists stat.

Twelvetrees it is then phasing Barrit out after more game time at 12. Exclusively as a 12. His defence is ok and it is not that difficult to enhance a good player's defence.

Triangulation the problem for Twelvetrees currently is that he's not first choice.

off he goes to Gloucester and gets mountains of time at 12.....

I swear Allen used to pass more than that back when he wore Cherry and White...

beshocked wrote:Triangulation the problem for Twelvetrees currently is that he's not first choice.

Hasn't stopped Cole, Farrel, Kitchener and Youngs though.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I swear Allen used to pass more than that back when he wore Cherry and White...

Hi did offload a lot more as well. But then their whole game plan was different and their 10 (Carlos) was a loon who he had to cover for.

I swear Allen used to pass more than that back when he wore Cherry and White...

Glaws used him as an additional play maker where as Tigers use him more as a strike runner off the shoulder of Flood and Geordan as the secondary play maker. He still steps into first reciever when Flood is at the bottom of a ruck though. He's of more use off the shoulder in my opinion, he picks clever lines and with Flood's tendancy to try and catch the 10 on the outside arc it ties in the opposition midfield. All that leaves more room for Manu and the back three.

The passing stats are very interesting. It does seem that Barritt & Twelvetrees are the picks if you want to spread the ball to the rest of your backline.

I just looked at the stats for the weekend's games. No passes and no offloads from Allen. One pass and no offloads from JTH. Four passes and one offload from Barritt.

Looking at the running stats, 4m from 4 runs for Allen, 0m from 4 runs for JTH, 16m from 9 runs for Barritt.

Looking at the running stats, 4m from 4 runs for Allen, 0m from 4 runs for JTH, 16m from 9 runs for Barritt.

What are the tackle stats like for Allen, he moved into the first receiver spot in defence at times so I'm guessing quite a few? I'm pretty sure Allen made at least one pass.

beshocked wrote:
Barritt looks to be best defender by far and least yielding in regards to turnovers (proportionally). Poor metres carried in proportion to carries but 2nd best tries and assists in one of the least attacking sides in the AP.

He's definitely the lesser of the group in that regard, but when you look at it in terms of metres per carry we're not talking about huge margins. It's questionable whether he's breaking the gainline less or if being the slowest of the group he's just not been able to put in a couple of 40/50m breaks to bump his average up. If opposed to running further he's looked to pass and given a try assist (the stats suggest he's more inclined to than Allen & JTH) on one of those breaks that is ultimately just as profitable.


Metres/Carry:

Barritt=2.1
Allen=3.5
JTH=3.2
36=3.2


Carries/Game

Barritt=6
Allen=7
JTH=7
36=7